"Why Is Fan Service a Bad Thing?" and Other Questions | Trek, Actually Comment Responses

[@st.anselmsfire3547]

It always bugs me when people mistake "charismatic" for "good person." Some of the best villains are charismatic, complex, even sympathetic - see Khan, Dukat, and Q. But make no mistake - they're all bad guys. Just because they're interesting complex characters brought to life by talented actors doesn't change the fact that these guys are all villains. Their motives might be sympathetic - but that doesn't make them pure, and even if they were "right," there's still their evil methods. Unfortunately, we tend to make this mistake in real life way too often too.

[@TheJohnnyCalifornia]

True - the main question in stories is whether the villain's actions are justified from their point of view. In Star Trek, it is rare to find a truly evil villain that is doing evil just to do evil and not motivated by some interest that is simply counter to the heroes'. In stories, there is the hero, and then there is the supporting cast. The only character that does not support anyone else is the Bad Guy. Often, they are the hero in their own perspective. Life, though, is not a story. It doesn't have anyone writing it or designing it. But it is something like a whole lot of stories going on at the same time, and even if we are the hero in all of the multiple, simultaneous stories of our own individual lives, we are also the supporting characters in each other's stories. So, in life, the people that do not accept that role or don't believe they should support others - they are the "bad guys" but not necessarily evil. Evil is hard to define as a thing in itself. Really, it usually just means misfortune and depends a lot on the subjective experience of people that suffer it. Evil actions bring misfortune to others, but it is hard to say that anyone committing evil acts is actually innately evil, just as it is hard to say those that do good by alleviating misfortune or attempting to bring good fortune to others are innately good. Also, obviously, fighting evil is not the same thing as doing good in that sense. Fighting evil often ends up in bringing about a lot of misfortune in itself.

[@gaiusgracchus7759]

Is Q a villain?

[@ZagnutBar]

Charisma is what attracts followers to all kinds of leaders, good and bad. It all comes down to intent. Trump is charismatic and needs little to follow him to fill the yawning void of insecurities that forms the core of his being while Bernie, for instance, realizes the way to change regular people's lives is to rise up and demand change front those who would otherwise keep the status quo. Both personalities have charismatic magnetism for the right people, but one is inherently self serving and the other works too maximize happiness for the masses. There's a big difference. They are not two sides of the same coin but rather two completely different coins.

[@karahughes7074]

Yep. Q is a charming, charismatic, psychopath. The only Q cares about is Q.

[@arandomnamegoeshere]

Good point. History is written in blood where "charismatic" is mistaken for "good."

[@oddtail_tiger]

Q is absolutely to blame for the harm from the Borg encounter. If I push someone into a pit with a tiger in it, I can't pretend it's *just* the tiger that killed the person. Also, "he's not evil, he merely treats people like playthings" is such weird reasoning. That's *how* you can tell he's bad. Treating those weaker than you as playthings, with no regard to their safety and lives, IS an evil thing to do.

[@Chiscringle]

The thing is that Q may not agree with Picard that the point could have been made any other way. Starfleet is shown after the encounter to be making comprehensive preparation for the eventual arrival of the Borg. If Q had just told Picard about them or even shown him a planet taken apart by the Borg, would he have been able to make the point to Starfleet? I don't know, but given how things have been going on Earth in the last couple of years, merely telling people that there's a danger and to be prepared doesn't seem like a viable way to get the point across. That being said, I agree that Q is entirely responsible for what happened. He knows what the Borg will do with a starship from a civilization they'd never encountered before. It's just hard for me to see him as evil when his actions saved so many lives in later Borg encounters. He's a demonstration of what a starfaring civilization without a non-interference policy is like to pre-warp civilizations. It's sort of like Archer when he decided not to give the cure in "Dear Doctor", deciding that the good of others is served in the death of some.

[@JurasSdz]

Dude, of course it’s his fault but in the other hand didn’t he kinda save the whole federation by giving enterprise a chance to meet the enemy, instead of the borg cube straight up attacking earth.

[@patrickdodds7162]

"Maybe being pushed into a tiger pit to give us a kick in our complacency; to prepare us for what lies ahead"-- Jean-Luc Picard (attributed)

[@theevilascotcompany9255]

The Qs presumably can see through time as well as space. If the Federation had not encountered the Borg earlier, the casualties would very much likely be more catastrophic than the relatively small number of crew they lost in their first encounter. The Q was likely going for the outcome with the highest chance of preserving the humans they seem infatuated with.

[@claframboise]

But would humans have beaten the borg if Q hadn't given them that push?

[@geekchris105]

As per the military judge issue: the crime that was being considered, initially, was Julian hiding his genetically engineered background, so he was going to be tried by a military judge to probably discharge him. Julian's parents made a deal with star fleet to keep him in the service.

[@EnjoySackLunch]

Seems like splitting hairs. The same issue applies: a military court/arbiter is imposing a penalty and prison time to a civilian.

[@nick5661]

@@EnjoySackLunch given that Julian is in starfleet it was likely being investigated for HIS crime of hiding the modifications. It could was be that starfleet worked with the federation judicial forces to agree to the deal his farther made.

[@unc0mm0n2]

@Nick I'm sorry Nick, but if this based on current military tribunals it makes no sense. I was a JAG for the US Army and nothing like this is feasible. There is a clear delineation of the US military that falls under the UCMJ and civilian federal or state criminal court that fall under statutory criminal codes.

[@robertt9342]

@@unc0mm0n2. So with your experience “as a JAG”, there is no military legal repercussions for lying/omitting disqualifying information on your application?

[@avatarofaiyel]

Can you imagine if Wesley's last episode had included him throwing Picard's "first duty" speech back in his face when it came to the obvious, blatant evil that Picard was allowing to happen? And how that might have colored Picard's actions in Insurrection? Great character opportunity missed.

[@justanotherbrokenerd2285]

With regards to Julian's parents being tried by Starfleet & not the civilian courts, I'd argue that's not what happened. Julian was technically the one on trial, for lying on his application to Starfleet regarding his genetic enhancements and he was going to face a court-martial. To prevent this his parents went to Sisko, who took it to Starfleet Command. While not explicitly stated Starfleet JAG would have worked in coordination with the civilian courts to formalize the plea-deal. Had Julian's father not reported to the JAG Admiral (the necessary condition to complete the hearing against a Starfleet officer), Julian's court-martial would have proceeded and civil charges filed against both parents. The minimum security prison also sounds more civilian than it does "military".

[@Tokahfang]

This was my impression, as well.

[@marcusmajarra]

On the subject of Lower Decks' self-referential humor: I think a lot of it is due on the fact that the show is very much built around the idea of meme culture humor. The show is shitposting gold. Regardless of whether or not this works for you, it gives context as to why the jokes are built that way. It's not just a matter of referencing other Trek material for its own sake, but also about subverting the depiction thereof. Like the Armus prank call bit, for example. The idea is not just to refer to Armus, a very serious villain that resulted in a main character death, but to also do it in a way that is completely antithetical to its depiction on TNG. Not only is Armus completely irrelevant to the LD episode's narrative, but the characters themselves deliberately refuse to take it seriously at all. The humor lies in the complete subversion of Armus as a plot device on TNG without changing anything about what Armus is or what it can do. Incidentally, this is also the reason why the Pakleds are featured as the main villains of season two. They were very much depicted in TNG as a species that the Enterprise crew had a hard time taking seriously. They were essentially a joke. But Lower Decks flipped the narrative on its end and asked the question: what if you really had to take the joke seriously, in spite of its inaneness? Again, we're dealing with an example of subversive humor, only the other way around. And this kind of humor is very much a recurring thing on Lower Decks. Now, it's totally ok if you don't like it. Personally, I find that this is one of the more endearing aspects of the show, because the subversion requires being very much aware of the tone and weight of the material being referenced and casting it in an entirely different light.

[@Kolyarut]

Yeah, I think this comment has the measure of it. I never saw Star Trek as a kid, I've seen scattered episodes across most series, a few full seasons, and all of DS9. I can't get that childhood nostalgia zing from the show - I've picked up enough through osmosis to get most of the references but I had no idea who Armus was - but it's clear that the joke is a bunch of supposedly mature Starfleet personnel prank calling a cosmic alien being. I didn't think it was one of the stronger jokes, but it wasn't a very subtle one, and Armus could have been any cosmic entity that had or hadn't appeared on the show previously (or heck, it could have been the Vulcan high council, or Starfleet command, or anyone with dignity and professionalism - as Krusty the clown said of the pie in the face gag, it's only funny when the sap's got dignity). I do get bristling at references without content or added value (the Transformers, which is my childhood nostalgia hit, has a lousy habit of parroting lines from the '86 movie over and over), but I don't think it's a particularly valid critique of Lower Decks, for the most part.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

If Lower Decks was just a show that parodies Star Trek, or science fiction in general, lets call this hypothetical show "Futurama" or something like that, Star Trek fans would not have a problem with it. But it is not.

[@marcusmajarra]

@@schwarzerritter5724 yeah, I'm a big Star Trek fan and I absolutely love Lower Decks. So your argument falls flat.

[@trekman10]

This is the golden comment

[@danyoung8392]

Re: Transformers; even more than parroting its own 80s lines, having Sentinel Prime pull the Spock line in one of the films (Dark of the Moon, I think) about 'the needs of the many..' can be an even stronger example of this. It almost makes it worth looking at other Leonard Nimoy voice works to see if they all do that because Nimoy voice, or if it was just Transformers.

[@nathansnerdynook]

I think the joke in the Armus Lower Decks bit was that, as Tasha's killer, Armus' place in Star Trek has always been as a serious, dark, sinister character from a serious, dark, sinister episode, and the Lower Decks gang is making him look foolish by pranking him. It's the classic comedic tradition of a character who takes himself very seriously being suddenly deprived of dignity for comedic effect. Daffy Duck keeps trying to assert his control of the situation so it's funny when he keeps getting shot in the face by Elmer Fudd. That's the joke. Which is not to say all your criticisms are invalid. It has nothing to do with the show or the characters. It's weird and random to reference something 35 years old just to make that joke, which could've been made with something far more relevant to the show/characters and would've made more sense. And in a show whose premise is, in large part, poking fun at the ridiculous over-serious aspects of classic Trek, it's about the easiest & laziest joke they could make. All of these are valid criticisms. But I gotta push back on your assertion that there is no joke. There is definitely a joke there.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

You where never supposed to be horrified by Daffy Duck murdering someone. Or take Elmer Fudd. He actually had a cameo in DC, where he was a badass on the same level as Batman, in basically some sort of reverse parody. That is the difference between parody and self parody. Nobody would mind if this this was a Family Guy cutaway, Riker said: "I am bored" and Picard answered: "Let's prank call Armus." They might have even complimented it for remembering this obscure character. But in universe, everyone knowing about Armus would be too terrified to try this. Self Parody kneekaps the story, because it makes it significantly harder to create tension. Like everyone says the Cerritos being attacked by the Padlek ship was the highlight of season 1, and it is. But where you really tense about how they are going to get out of this one? Certainly not as much as when, for example, the Enterprise NX had to push its engines far beyond what they where tested for to escape an attacker. And Enterprise is not even considered one of the more popular shows.

[@Donnagata1409]

@@schwarzerritter5724 Really? Elmer Fudd? You're old! (p.s. I got the reference 😉)

[@xxclokwerkzxx6438]

i was just about to write something similar but you worded it perfectly so in short I saw the joke and thought it was funny but those kinds of jokes won't always land

[@Grizabeebles]

Armus exists to absorb evil and hatred, right? So wouldn't going out of your way to bully Armus from a theoretically safe distance be the exact thing a Starfleet crewman SHOULD fo to vent their negative emotions?

[@terprubin]

Could the presence of Nog to balance out Jake's character be the result of the failure of Wesley as a character? Because I remember thinking when DS9 first started, "gee, I wish Wesley had a friend like Nog or Jake." I just remember thinking during the first season of DS9 that they should bring Wes back and give him a little Ferengi sidekick.

[@hollyputvin917]

The easiest solution I see for TNG in that regard and it would two characters at least getting characterization would be to have Alexander and Westley bond over being the outsider looking in, having lost a parent and sharing the difficulties they have with their one parent who is either absent (Alexander) or too much of a helicopter (Westley). Maybe even have Dr. Crusher get to know Alexander over dinner cause Westley invited him and she then goes to Worf and either actually slaps him out of nowhere or verbally tells him to get the hell off his ass and pay some attention to his son, his son needs him. Then maybe Worf could throw some you are one to talk woman (according to the translator I used the Klingon would be bIlunghaHbe'), and they would be giving each other the stink eye on the bridge until Picard is like Worf, Crusher my ready room NOW. Then they wouldn't leave until they could talk out everything bugging them while Picard listens and adds some Picard sage wisdom, and things start to be better for both Westley and Alexander. Alexander gets more attention and maybe Worf without prompting starts to be a step dad to Westly, and Dr. Crusher learns to back off of Westley but could also be a mother figure for Alexander too. Then when they head their separate ways, Worf takes Alexander with him to DS9 and Alexander becomes the responsible older brother figure to Jake and Nog, musing once to Odo, "I was like Nog once, a bit of an outsider acting out for attention, until a kind human offered me his friendship. Yes we got into mischief but we were kids, its what kids do." I apologize for my long comment but I just ran with the idea.

[@chardtomp]

I've considered that as well. The biggest mistake they made with Wesley's character was making him too Pollyanna. He needed a more average teen friend to balance him out and maybe lead him into trouble once in a while.

[@Donnagata1409]

Ooooooh, that would be great! Wesley feels lonely.

[@Donnagata1409]

@@hollyputvin917 And a very good one. Alexander and Wesley, they could help each other so much!

[@Donnagata1409]

@@chardtomp Pollyanna... Hated it. One of the few books that I couldn't get through as a child, and I read anything that I could get in print! (not much choice back then).

[@badman3000]

The whole Sonya Gomez thing I didn't even know who that was until somebody pointed it out. If you don't know who the character is you're just like oh that's just another captain but if you do it's just a nice little call back.

[@jillchristensen5093]

I agree. I’ve watched TNG dozens of times over the years and the name Sonya Gomez meant nothing to me. I only have a problem with fan service if the plot depends on the audience knowing the reference.

[@JDSileo]

That was my experience as well. There were a ton of things I didn't know we're fan service until I saw Steve's review. I'm thinking Steve's take is valid but also through a lens of someone who has seen Star Trek so many times that he gets every single reference.

[@hellokittykillz5636]

Yeah and wasn’t the actress originally pitched that she’d be Geordi’s love interest on TNG but they randomly decided to cut her character out? I thought it was a nice way of attempting to make up a little for going back on that for the actress while giving fans a nod with a reference in a way where the plot works with or without knowing who her character was.

[@andrewgreenwood9068]

I think that a good way to do it is write your story and once that is done if any existing character would fit perfectly into the place of a new one put them in instead.

[@EnjoySackLunch]

Poor Kira. The ONE character you don’t want to irk or overlook, less you feel her eyes piercing your back for the rest of your days ….. and she’s as ignored and passed over as Harry Kim’s promotion paperwork.

[@patrickdodds7162]

Not to mention Dr. Beverly Crusher never gets her due! She's the most underrated character in the history of the whole Star Trek canon! She didn't even have much to do in the TNG movies!

[@EnjoySackLunch]

@@patrickdodds7162 was there a D.BC figure tho? The major was literally front and center and our boy just skipped over her like a drunken parisi squares player. I agree w everything you said nevertheless.

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

40:30 In my headcanon, the box exists because Temporal-Rift-Timeline Tasha Yar found out that Armus had killed Tasha-Prime, and presuaded a certain Romulan general to make the device - which actually only calls Armus - and she called him, just once, right after the Enterprise left with just the words "guess who's not dead, BITCH?" and then hung up.

[@CortexNewsService]

I like that headcanon

[@reyperry2605]

I always figured the division colors changed because from Star Trek II through much of Picard's time on the Stargazer, all Starfleet uniforms were red.in the movies, division colors were represented by the undershirt and they were completely different from division colors in the original series. (And wildly inconsistent). Before that, in Star Trek: The Motion Picture, the division colors had already been radically changed: white was command and orange was science and green was medical and so on and so on. That was represented in the patch, not the uniform itself. When Starfleet went back to three division colors, perhaps they swapped red and gold because red was now seen as more representative of Starfleet as a whole and the command vision was the division that represented Starfleet most of the three. In other words, red had become the de facto Starfleet color during the use of the more militaristic uniforms of Wrath of Khan on so red remained the color of the "stars" of Starfleet. That's my head canon explanation.

[@lazyboyghrol]

One of the reasons I enjoy Star Trek, and especially Deep Space Nine, is how Star Trek is a bigger universe than any one show, and that the people who we meet for one episode may show up later with a whole new adventure under their belt. That's why I enjoy stuff like Sonja Gomez showing up in LD. Like, Vash showing up on Deep Space Nine with Q is a great object lesson in how the Gamma Quadrent is way more dangerous, than the Alpha Quadrent and our best explorers have no chance out there without help from a godlike being. Sonja Gomez showing up in LD seems like the same thing to me, the premise of the show made manifest.

[@nikoteardrop4904]

In preparation for your Star Trek Continues episode, make sure you read up on Vic Mignogna-- writer, director, and Kirk. There's a lot of evidence for his being a serious creep to not only co-workers but underage fans at conventions. STC is an amazing project, but it would be unfortunate to cover it without mentioning the behavior of it's central creative figure.

[@SteveShives]

Vic's shittiness is the main reason I haven't done a video about Star Trek Continues yet. It is a fantastic project, but his conduct really takes the shine off it.

[@nikoteardrop4904]

@@SteveShives I had a moment of crash when the news about him broke. I have zero awareness of the anime voice cast community, so STC was where I first saw Mignoga. I was seriously enjoying the series, and then.. yeah. My enthusiasm tanked. I'm very conflicted about watching the rest of the run. It's a collaborative work, and a lot of really creative people busted their asses to get it done, but his fingerprints are *all over it*.

[@ThePorpoisepower]

There's an episode (or two) of the podcast All Lawyers Are Bastards that introduced me not only to ST Continues, but Vic, and his "exploits".

[@JRGomez81]

It would be best to avoid that topic all together. As it is now that guy is like Voldemort, just talking around him is enough to summon the fanatics...

[@duke1845]

A Jago Hazard featured comment in a Steve Shives video was not the crossover I was expecting, but loving it. Two of my fave YT channels!

[@johnchedsey1306]

Wanna understand? (44:51) All the Armus scene was howling funny! It's absurd, silly, and knee slapping funny. Well, for those of us who aren't grumpy poohs. ;) To me, what some feel is fan service in LD is a love letter to the entire series for the rest of us and why many of us have found Lower Decks to be one of the best of all the Star Trek series.

[@Impath]

Steve: "Thanksgiving is the start of the holiday season" Halloween: "Am I just a joke to you?"

[@jamalwest7658]

No, your not a joke, your a silent killer

[@tomchaney6085]

I think the joke with Armus is meant to be inverting the power dynamic. Armus is supposed to be a very powerful, intimidating villain, so giving him an outside context problem that is outside his sphere of influence and seeing him floundering and flustered and not in control is supposed to be funny. YMMV on how *good* of a joke it was, but I think that was the intention.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

Everyone in universe would be too terrified to actually try this though. You don't know for certain he can't kill you through the device. If you knew about Armus, you would think he was far more powerful than he actually is, because the story would have been exaggerated several times, before you heard it. You would not prank call Satan, would you? This kind of joke can only work if somebody was parodying Star Trek. If you watch SfDebris, he has skits where Captain Janeway is an insane dictator. But if that actually happened in the show, like if Tom and Harry where imitating Janeway behind her back, the show wouldn't really work any more the way it did, and Voyager did not work that well to begin with.

[@ZipplyZane]

​@@schwarzerritter5724 I don't really see it that way. Armus is known to be completely stranded on the planet, and considered not to be a threat (or else they'd have eliminated him). His only "evil" is his need to mess with people. As long as he can't touch you, he's not a threat. And the fact they know about Armus at all would suggest that the mission is not secret or anything, so they would have access to the mission logs. So I don't see it really growing in the telling. Now, was it included as a nod to fans? Of course. The jokes in a show generally are made for the audience. LD goes out of its way to be able to relate jokes to us, by making it where the cast can be fans of Starfleet missions the way we are of Star Trek episodes. It's akin to how, in the Marvel universe, you have people who are fans of the superheroes to be analogous to the readers as fans of the comics. But I have no problem buying that, with the rules established by the show, that the characters would think Armus is pathetic and want to mock him.

[@TheMaddgodd81]

The Armus joke was exactly that. The story has spread through Starfleet, literally EVERYONE knows about him, but he's a joke to them. As for the how, you point out that it's a "Star Trek technical contrivance", but that's literally 85% of how anything happens on a Star Trek show at all (hell, Geordi being a blind man that can see is because of a "Star Trek technical contrivance"). The fact that it was a random piece of tech that lets them make the call is the point of the episode; the team is getting rid of random weird stuff that the crew came across. And the why? These characters are the goofy screwups; them playing a stupid prank without thinking about why is on par for them.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

Anyone who knows about Armus would be too terrified to try this. As far as the special powers go, the most people you meet on the street can do is read minds and everyone has an idea how those powers work. Armus powers are on a whole different level. You don't know for certain he can't kill you through the phone. I mean, would you prank call Satan if you knew he was real?

[@schwarzerritter5724]

To elaborate, the problem is not itself that they prank call Armus, but this kind of self parody weakens any stories you tell with the characters. Nobody would care if this was a Family Guy cutaway.

[@trashman101]

I cannot fathom how people keep trying to analyze Lower Decks as if its one of the live action series. Its a CARTOON that is expressly played for laughs by parodying the aforementioned live action shows. Why is this so hard for some people to comprehend?

[@trashman101]

@@schwarzerritter5724 Oh FFS! It's a COMEDY, man!! And as the great comedian Rowan Atkinson once explained, all comedy stems from the unexpected. By telling a story that goes somewhere the listener/viewer didn't see coming. Yes, in the mainstream Trek universe anyone who knew about Armus would be terrified which is why prank-calling him like he's Moe Szyslak is comedic. Y'know? With the show being a COMEDY and all?

[@gioc3496]

I feel like the joke in the Armus scene is that Armus is extremely dangerous, but ONLY if you go to his goo planet.

[@jefft5152]

18:46 👍 STAR TREK CONTINUES! It's so damn good!

[@ErzengelDesLichtes]

The funniest part of the Armus scene is that it implies that everyone in Starfleet knows about the oil slick. Like there was a holodeck story they all played or something.

[@davidcolby167]

"Where's the joke?" I mean, if I have to explain why it's funny to you, it still won't be funny to you. Also, I don't really mind the fan service in Lower Decks because...like, it's not...trying to be particularly serious. And considering I've had literally decades of Star Trek being SO fucking self serious and pompous and smug, I'm just happy to be able to watch a ST show that isn't perpetually smelling its own farts.

[@DeannaGilbert616]

That's why I think it's a lot better to consider Lower Decks a satire. It's not a Star Trek "Friends". It's a Star Trek "Parks and Recreation".

[@rhondawest6838]

Some autistic people have difficulty determining what's supposed to be humour. My husband and I are both autistic, but I was raised in a family of comedians so I can usually recognize it. Often humour can feel like a secret language that everyone else seems to understand, but can feel deliberately isolating to me. It's not so bad for me now, but I find myself having to explain a lot of humour to my husband, who didn't like a lot of tv shows and movies that he didn't realize were supposed to be funny until he viewed them through that lens. That being said, we both recognize that Lower Decks is supposed to be funny.

[@kelaEQ2]

To me Q is basically Sid from Toy Story...he is playing with his Toys but he doesn't care one bit if one or more of them gets broken...he does start to grow attached to his toys and therefore plays less harshly with them but that does not make him a good being.

[@ShiningCharge]

Is "the female changeling" the leader of the changelings? I always thought that they were absolutely egalitarian and essentially see themselves as aspects of a single organism (the drop becomes the ocean, the ocean becomes the drop, etc.), mainly affecting individual forms to interact with (ugh) solids. She happens to be in charge of the Dominion's alpha quadrant operations, but that doesn't imply that she is in charge of any or all other changelings. A better alternative designation might be "Changeling #1", as she was essentially the first non-Odo changeling encountered by the Federation and their primary point of contact among the changelings.

[@thescifiZipacna]

And I think it's explicit within the show that the majority of Changelings never leave the Great Link. So the Changelings we see are the few volunteers who deal with the solids to oversee the Dominion & the point of the Dominion is to protect the Link. They even delegate most of the work of running the Dominion to the Vorta and Jem'hadar to minimise how much they have to deal with solids.

[@hollyputvin917]

How come she didn't get a name like Odo? Wouldn't that make her more of a threat as well as mystery? "Mystic" for example would have worked sort of, as unsure if Stan Lee trade marked that for his blue skinned mutant who was able to at least minick other people.

[@wendyheatherwood]

She might be in charge of any changling infiltrators currently operating in the alpha quadrant, but yeah, I never got the impression that she was in charge overall. I don't think they have a single leader, but if they did they likely wouldn't be personally overseeing military operations in another region of space when they've got a whole empire to run.

[@ethinos2719]

I always felt like she was more of a spokesperson than a leader. The person designated to communicate with the outside world.

[@MrArghylesteward]

I was thinking the exact same thing, though I had a different alternate name; Voice of the Changelings or Voice of the Great Link.

[@roryclague5876]

I admire the slight tremble in your voice in describing those Thomas Paine quotes. Humanism can and should move the heart to build a better world based on universal compassion. I agree with those sentiments wholeheartedly!

[@duanebidoux6087]

In "Why Democracies Die" the authors talk about a point in American history that sounds almost identical to the situation with the female Captain ban in order to placate the Tellarites. After the end of the American civil war most in the North believed that the end of slavery should mean African Americans would have full legal equality (at the level they do today). But, as the years followed and Reconstruction efforts continued, the South still refused to budge on this and they realized that unless they went along with the South that the union would fail even without a war because the average Southerner simply did not accept African Americans as equals, and so the North accepted that the only outcome of the war would be the end of slavery, not the end of inequality. Justice was delayed to preserve the Union.

[@stephenramsey5585]

Regarding Lower Decks, I don't watch it as a comedy. A lot of the references get a smile out of me but I'm in it for the characters and the overall story. I find the references often add to their subject and allow us to see it from the context of other people in that world, sometimes even fleshing out the related lore (mugatos come to mind). This is gonna sound really condescending but maybe you're just watching it with the wrong expectations. I know it's intended to be a comedy, but I prefer to enjoy it for what it is than what it tries to be, and what it is is some otherwise really good Trek.

[@KayleighBourquin]

IIRC in Encounter at Farpoint Q outright kills a nameless ensign on the bridge by freezing him to death. Something he later does to Tasha Yar though he reverses it later.

[@amylaneio]

The nameless ensign doesn't die. There's a throwaway line a little later in the episode that mentions he is recovering in sickbay.

[@SprocketWatchclock]

Star Trek Continues is so good that my brain never wants to sort it as non-cannon and separate from TNG & TAS.

[@poozizzle]

I love these comment response videos. Gives great insight into your audience and I love it when you dive deeper into your own videos!

[@davidlivingston4203]

"Star Trek Continues" is such a warm love letter to Trek by the fans that made it. Wholeheartedly agree on your opinion on it. It's the wonder and awe of the Original Series, but with a more modern level of story writing and production.

[@DeadSpatula]

The best way to think about Q is the myths of the Fae. He sees the world in such a wildly different way, we don’t understand his morality or motivations. But, from what we see, Q is playing with us, he is bored, that’s the text. But for him, nothing has stakes. He needs the game to have stakes, have meaning (from the voyager episode with the Q who wants asylum). He puts lives in real danger, but always in a ‘fair’ game, there’s always a path to victory. He’s testing us, like rats in a maze. You win, and you go free. If you attract his attention, if he fancies playing with you, his future games might be easier to win, but it’s not compassion as we understand it. He isn’t malevolent, but he’s definitely the villian.

[@chazblank2717]

The silliness of Star Trek V is worth it all on its own. It’s actually the movie I’ve used to introduce my stoner friends to the franchise for that exact reason.

[@danielgertler5976]

In fairness to richard bashir, he would have succeeded jsut fine if Jerry Seinfeld hadn't tanked his restaurant and kept his visa renewal form.

[@grantpenton1850]

When I saw STV for the first time in the theatre I knew that Kirk would successfully resist Cybok's "give me your pain" hypnosis... the image of Kirk shouting down his spore-addled persona in 'This Side of Paradise' with "I.... can't... leave!!...(orgasm face)... emotions... violent emotions need anger!" was still fresh in my mind.

[@justinplayfair9827]

A hero knows who they are inside, articulates that to others around them, and their actions do not contradict what they have articulated. That is the definition of a hero in movies during the Production Code and during early American television.

[@MrDaveWhitney]

My thoughts on Q: His only goal was to teach. Maybe not the best of methods, and he's certainly callous. I never perceived him as a villain because I believe his intentions were to advance things along and make sure the human race learned the right lessons. The entire encounter with the Borg was to teach the humans some humility and that most important lesson: space travel is *very* risky and you can't handle everything. If you're not willing to take the Big Risk, you shouldn't be out here.

[@IanZainea1990]

4:58 Look Steve, sometimes playing around gets out of hand and you toss the football into your mothers favorite lamp. It happens! You can't blame Q for wanting to have a little fun and a few crew members getting offed. It happens!

[@marcbarnhill]

The Continuum always said don’t play ball in the house.

[@codasylphanthi2187]

Honestly, being reminded of all these great moments in Star Trek V kind of makes me want to go watch it again. I'm afraid I'm going to regret it, but there it is.

[@knightcrusader]

In response to the uniform division color swap between TOS and TNG - I guess people are forgetting for half a century there the uniform was red for everyone. They didn't just swap, they didn't have gold or blue for decades. I guess the admiralty liked keeping red for command so they made engineering use gold.

[@StormsparkPegasus]

My opinion on fanservice is that it is a good thing, but it shouldn't be taken to extremes, and it should always be in character. If you make it too excessive, you risk fourth wall breaks and the story becoming impossible to take seriously. (I can't STAND fourth wall breaks, except in comedy/satire...in something like Spaceballs for instance it's fine, but NEVER in any serious story.) Subtle types of fanservice and easter eggs can be all over the place as they don't disrupt the story unless you go WAY WAY overboard.

[@BOREDcentre]

Hey Steve! New trekkie here (within the last year) and i just wanted to say, though i am sad you’re not into lower decks, i can understand why. The many references and jokes scattered through-out feel less like comedy and nostalgia from my perspective, but more like a really enthusiastic fan inviting me to come learn and get interested in finding out more about the show; The comedy feels like it comes from the enthusiasm. I am now finished TOS, TAS, and half way through TNG while keeping up to date on Lower Decks. Thanks for the great content and keep up the fantastic work!

[@KristenK78]

That Guinean figure’s face is AMAZING. It’s incredibly true to life!

[@kevinrussell3501]

Lower Decks showed in an episode towards the end of season 2 that they have Starfleet Officers test their skills in simulations of previous missions of past ships. This could easily explain how these characters knew who Armus was and what buttons to push to upset him. They are probably warned not to go anywhere near his planet. I don't remember if they did but I'm sure the TNG crew literally left a warning beacon in the system. Is prank calling Armus the greatest joke ever? No. Is it going to be humorous to most Star Trek fans? Probably

[@Donnagata1409]

Can I say, SN are great? I'm from Europe, talked to people from Asia (Thailand, a secretary just like me, she offered to teach me Thai 😍), heard the opinions from American people, read novels from African people (Botswana), watched films from Australian people... We're all wonderful people! Just love them all! #IDIC

[@Donnagata1409]

Don't trust the people who says "Tne whole world is my country". (That always comes from people who belong to big countries, not me. OK, one of those European countries where you have to be careful not to take big steps, or you get abroad). Quite agree with "My religion is to do good". ❤ P.S. Q is a kind of Loki character, right?

[@JoelCromwell]

51:18 So, I don't think that Eberwald's comment in particular really gets the idea across as well that many of us are expressing when it comes to what kind of show Lower Decks is. Lower Decks is 100% for sure different from other Trek shows in terms of its tone. It's very light hearted and fun, and while there are numerous uses of humour in the show, that doesn't inherently make the show a comedy. It is first, and foremost, a Star Trek show, and I see it as more of a light hearted romp through that universe than a comedy show. As you said in your original review of LD S2, 'Fun'.

[@shannanmuire]

I'm so happy you mentioned Thomas Paine and his quote, my mind is my own church. I completely agree with that and it was the only thing that made sense to me in college. The first time I ever read that quote I was like, "Dude... heck yeah!" I grew up in the Bible belt and couldn't believe that one of our founding fathers had even said that! I love your Star Trek videos, btw! I only ever watched the original series as a kid, and then Next/Gen during my high school years. I was never interested in Deep Space Nice when it first came out during my college years, but I will say this---you've made me want to go back and watch all of them with new eyes!!! When I watch your videos, I feel like a giddy kindergartener again, waiting for picture book story time from the teacher. You point things out that I never noticed before, and now I want to go back and re-watch everything that I missed! Thank you Steve! So glad I discovered your channel! 🖖😁🛸🐈‍⬛

[@terprubin]

"There's Barack Obama hiding behind Superman... " 😆

[@rb1691]

19:30 Wondered how kindly disposed Steve is toward Star Trek Continues. I'm stoked that his opinion is favorable.

[@sarahscott5305]

ARGH! You read my comment! For the second time!!! Feel weirdly proud of myself 😊

[@Ploppy17]

With the Lower Decks reference jokes, the joy isn't in simply "being reminded" of something else from Star Trek. YMMV, and that's perfectly fair, but for me personally those moments are a celebration of the wider franchise and the things we love in it - watching it feels more like gushing with a fellow trekkie about our favourite Trek minutae than it does simply being reminded of references to other shows.

[@vp21ct]

Steve, I think the thing that you're kind of missing about Lower Decks is that a big chunk of the premise of the show is just flat out . . . "Hey, you know how X thing happened in Star Trek, and we *never* got any further check in on that? Yeah, how about we do that now." And yes. That IS an incredibly fanservice thing to have. There is a lot of stuff that's going to be there just to be there. But there's also a lot of very functional call backs in there as well. Having an episode dealing with strange and odd artifacts involve a call back to The Most Toys is a great example, that's a great way to a) touch base on a lot of weird one off things, and b) it works within the premise of the idea. An episode of the crew being put through ridiculous scenarios they aren't supposed to succeed in all somehow based on Star Trek movies of the past is absolutely *brilliant*, letting them poke fun at some of the happenstances there with a bit of commentary on what actual characters would think about them. After all, how often, in this very youtube channel, is it joked on how incredulous Kirk's mission reports must be? But, sometimes, that joke is going to fall a little flat. Sometimes it's not gong to make a lot of sense, when it should. But sometimes it also doesn't really *have* to entirely 'make sense'. A lot of why Trek never revisitted some ideas was that the idea was just spent, and Lower Decks can drive that in with just a passing comment or cameo. Where Lower Decks really does shine, however, and where I think more of the attention of the show will swing in the future, is that it actually has a pretty solid ensemble cast, both in main and secondary characters, who all have a remarkable amount of chemistry together. Which has always been the meat and potatoes of what makes a good Star Trek series. And if it takes them one or two seasons to REALLY hit their stride, suffering through the occasional out of place joke to get there . . . I mean, I got through 2 seasons of Enterprise, Season 1 of TNG . . . I think I can bear the odd mistep in Lower Decks as it finds it's footing.

[@quark12000]

I can't thank you enough for mentioning "Star Trek Continues". I had no idea this existed and you are right, it's the best fan series I've ever seen. Thanks.

[@TakaComics]

I think the joke is supposed to be that Armus can't leave Vagra II, and can't come after them, making him an easy target for mockery (plus, he's supposed to be evil personified, so that's kind of like mocking the Devil to his face). Like, I get your angle, but complete ridiculous humor in the Star Trek Universe was what I thought LD was going to be, so if it was only that, I'd be like "Eh, it's just as expected." I'm glad they did more with the show overall and I hope they have more story and gags that are connected to the characters in S3, but I don't really mind some of the silly out of nowhere references here and there.

[@OpinionsNoOneCaresAbout]

Weyoun will have their own Fox News show any day now.

[@IanZainea1990]

25:14 "This old Starbase" 🤣🤣 I was slightly hoping it would be a riff on Tool Time. Instead of Tim the tool man Taylor... Miles the Marvelous Mechanic O'Brien ... so some other BS alliteration ... Sorry for all the comments today. Sometimes I just can't help myself and I just give a running commentary. I imagine it's quite annoying for youtubers who read their comments... whoops!

[@logiciananimal]

I think the biggest problem I have with excessive fan service is that eats time that could be used to introduce new ideas ...

[@st.anselmsfire3547]

For all its faults, Lower Decks is obviously intended as a comedy. How are there people that have watched it and not seen that? Doesn't that inherently mean the show failed, on some level? I like most of the jokes, but I do respect the point of view that *way* too many gags are just references. Do people need a laugh track?

[@tommannering4520]

Not to harp on the LD point, I find it more of a 'light-hearted' Trek. I've never seen it as a full fledged comedy and it doesn't make me laugh out loud all the time (which is perhaps why I think that), I find it entertaining on its own merits. Sucks that you don't enjoy it, but thats the way it falls sometimes. Keep up the good work 😊

[@legendswarble2845]

I think part of the reason people try to justify the villains they like, or claim they "did noting wrong" like Q, Thanos, Dukat, ect. is because those are the villains who's perspective we are allowed to understand. I think sometimes people confuse, "this villain had a reason" and "this villain has identified a real problem" with "this villain is right."

[@philopharynx7910]

I loved a fan service moment in Picard, season 2. The punk on the bus was the same punk on the bus that Spock dealt with. This is something that works because non-fans will think it's at least amusing. He's a rough-looking guy who backs down quickly. Casual fans will see it as a reference to a great ST movie. And superfans will recognize all of the details. This is the same actor, Kirk Thatcher. He was originally Nimoy's assistant, and he asked to be put in because he loved punk rock as well as Trek. He also wrote and recorded the songs, "I hate you" and "I still hate you". I do think that we lose something in scenes where the only point is "You have seen this thing before." Lots of recent movies have leaned too far into this. Lots of classic movies are classics because many generations connect to it. But when something comes up that has no meaning without context, then a future generation won't enjoy it. I also think that this series has a different standard. Trek, Actually is specifically a commentary on Star Trek. It loses all value without the original work. A joke that is only a reference to something would work because it's aimed at the audience. They all know the episodes.

[@bendonatier]

"Jake is the good kid and nog is the juvenile delinquent.". Boy how that ended up playing out over time. When I think of Nog it's in the later seasons, where he has shaped up and Jake... Tries his best.

[@joshuaperrine2019]

Going over your doll collection should've been a video all on it's own. I love seeling people's collections of things and the stories behind getting them.

[@gausssto570]

From Picard's point of view those crew members were all significant because in Roddenberry's future (and hopefully ours) every life has value and is important. However, from Q's point of view, the whole universe and all of time, where entire civilizations come and go, it's the big picture that matters. The Federation was too cocky and self-righteous. Q was right. Without those deaths there are no consequences. It was tough love. It was punishment for Picard for his arrogance. It was Picard who said they were ready for anything that prompted Q to send them to the Borg. That doesn't make Q a hero or anything, but let's not forget that part.

[@dsmil2]

So they were asking for it?

[@empirejeff]

Humanity would have lost to the Borg with out Q.

[@AlatheD]

"Shatnerian" If I have my way, this will become a word, and I shall use as often as I can. Yay, tour of the figurines!

[@WDCallahan]

I never would have even gotten the Armus reference in LD at all. I never remembered that name. I didn't know that puddle had a name. Until Baby changed his name to Armus and I had to go look that up to understand the joke. From then on, I remembered that name.

[@sagejpc1175]

With the initial meeting with the Borg, I was under the impression that the borg were already on their way to earth. Q was trying to give the Enterprise a heads up on what was coming.

[@grumpyotter]

He could have done that with a Zoom call, lol

[@DeathBYDesign666]

That was exactly what he was doing. They weren't in any hurry to get there until that point though, but it might very well have saved the federation. Not many get the advantage of prep time before their first large scale encounter on their home soil.

[@sagejpc1175]

@@grumpyotter lol that would have been one wild call

[@lilolebob]

Given the little scene at the end with Guinan and Picard, I'm not so sure of that.

[@dataportdoll]

I've never been so black and white on Q. He seems to actually have a character arc, which might be why TNG-era viewers arent looking for it, but he, again, by appearances, starts from a point of antagonism and, if we take him at his word at the end of TNG, he has become Humanity's hidden advocate in the Continuum, seeming genuinely pleased that Picard was able to expand his perspective in one singular moment. Then Voyager got their mitts on him and he doesn't seem to have grown much at all, so I guess that's that.

[@ShawnRavenfire]

39:47 Reminds me of what Kirk said about Khan. "We can admire him and be against him all at the same time."

[@limalepakko6074]

Best part of this video was you talking exitedly about your figurines. Precious

[@tethiandjp8324]

In regards to the uniform color change, I always "in universe" explained it based on the all red military style uniforms from the movies (Wrath of Khan, and so one). When Starfleet moved back to differentiated colors, they just kept Red as command.

[@Gormathius]

37:19 This is SO SO relevant in terms of fascism sneaking its way into the discourse. Most of the fascists I've run into online used to/are still doing that "balance" narrative.

[@cartoonkelly7924]

I remember having a Seala figure but I’m not sure I ever had a Guinean… Cool collection. Thank you for the tour.

[@natbarmore]

BTW, the original phrase is "ours is but to do AND die". It's fatalistic, not presenting any sort of choice (not even a false choice with only one right answer). The point is that the doing is what is going to get you killed, not that avoiding your duty is what would get you killed. Nor, as it's frequently used, to be a paean to dedication and commitment, implying that the only way someone could be prevented from succeeding is by death, and any lesser obstacle will be overcome.

[@InfernalRamblings]

(Whoa, the comment callout!) Love the continued Weyoun discussion. Your point regarding his lack of ego really nails it. It creates a great dynamic in scenes where he's with Dukat, who is pretty much as ego-driven as a character can get. I'm reminded of one instance where Weyoun sort of amusedly remarks about Dukat's pettiness. It's a great little moment showing how completely different these two villains are despite their common interest. Re: fan service, I find it best used as an accent or flourish, not as a whole story element in and of itself. In other words, if you recognize it, you get a little something extra in addition to the text. But if you don't, you still have a good stand-alone story/scene/joke without it. I haven't gotten around to Lower Decks S2 yet but it's really disappointing to hear that they seem to be leaning on the fan service even more now.

[@justsomeguy9555]

Uniform Switch (14:44):: Objectively, the red-shirts who survived the prodigious death rate of the original series/preceding decades would logically be the most experienced, fortunate, & cautious individuals. Natural selection kinda leans toward the adaptive personalities who survive friends dying by randomly being turned to stone, driven insane, killed by a lava monster in episode 86… would be PERFECT for keeping other folks calm at The Worst Moment Imaginable: “Don’t panic! Commander Cupcake survived the Klingon War in security duty, & a tour on the Enterprise with Kirk fighting a pregnant vampire mist - they’ve seen it all.” TBH, we figure most Picard’s peers make peace with their first contacts by telling true stories of the things The Federation has barely survived… Star Trek is really “TREK: On Location w/the sentients of Starfleet” (‘Bad Boys’ theme?)

[@renatocorvaro6924]

Watching some low-effort Steve with some low-effort fast food. Today's a good day.

[@NikolaHoward]

If you have Riker in engineering gold - then that's easy.. it's Thomas. 😃

[@mishapurser4439]

Your comparison of people with strong vs weak moral character was really enlightening.

[@gavincassells7585]

Where you see pandering I see celebration. Both the writers and I love the material and want to show/see more. And on Gomez in particular I don't see a need to create a new character when we can develop an existing character.

[@TheTrycehyman]

Hey, I'm somebody now! Yeah it is over the top, with that same flavor of Shatner delivering his lines about the Enterprise as a lover in "The Naked Time." But I think Kirk is at his strongest as a character when he's dealing with pain. But in the context of ST V especially, if Sybok takes away his pain...Kirk would love some of what little of David he has.

[@CesarHILL]

Thomas Paine is such a good reference. I loved the age of reason and the way he perceives revelation in a non religious way that is so meaningful to me.

[@DuncanTheSinger]

As much as I did enjoy Lower Decks, I couldn't disagree with anything you said your review. The fan service would have been fine if in small doses, but when over half each episode is just in-jokes, how is it accessible to new viewers? You need to be a Trekkie to get so much of it, which means none of it stands on its own merit. It's a shame, I still think it has a lot of potential but it's certainly infuriating, even for me, who (as I say) enjoyed it regardless.

[@Brahmsonite]

I don't have a wide sample, but a lot of the references/returning content seem to come across either as merely interesting world building stuff, techno babble (which we mostly ignore regardless), or go completely unremarked as just part of the show. In an interview the show runner said that they hoped people that came into their show first would branch out to other shows and pick up the references and call backs in a reverse direction. It didn't ruin anything for me that I hadn't seen the TAS episode where the body splitting drill instructor's race came from.

[@Vilamus]

I enjoyed it in Season 1, but by the end of Season 2, it comes across to me that Lower Decks is just scared to be it's own show. I hated Shax coming back until his character moment about the pottery and the occupation. Ffs, Lower Decks made the PAKELDS scary villains. If it has more self confident, it could tone down the fan service and be it's own show.

[@YggdrasilMedia]

Strangely I've met a few people who say they've gotten into Trek through Lower Decks. You'd think the references would be lost on them but I think the average person gets them enough through cultural osmosis while making them curious about the rest of the franchise.

[@CaptainPikeachu]

Actually there’s a lot of people who got into Trek because of Lower Decks and are new viewers, I understand that us as fans may not be able to see how new viewers can enjoy the show without knowing all the references because we see it and spot them but the show actually explain all that you need to know to enjoy it for what it is. My brother hasn’t seen any of the shows that Lower Decks references and he enjoys it for what it is just fine and it’s actually made him interested in seeing older episodes. The references aren’t actually as much of a block as you might presume.

[@DeannaGilbert616]

And yet...in Jesse Gender's video, she talks about how Lower Decks was someone's first Trek, and those references actually encouraged them to investigate other Trek shows.

[@johnchedsey1306]

Incidentally, I think Star Trek needs a half hour live action sitcom. Like, "Trip n T'Pol" as newlyweds on Vulcan and all the hijinks they go through. Or, Tilly's Sillies.

[@LisaSimpson2]

Thanks for another great video Steve! And omg I was so ecstatically happy that one of your patreons/fans asked about your Star Trek figures! I have some myself and always wondered about which specific one's you had there behind you! So thank you to them, and to you, for sharing them with us! I have one of Kira and my most favourite character ever... Gul Dukat! Teehee! And look I know he's "evil" but I must confess I have such a huge crush on him (well... at least before he went kinda nuts anyway lol!). Anywho, please keep up the great work Steve! Always love to see your videos in my notifications! They are always an absolute pleasure to watch and pure awesome Star Trek gold-pressed latinum. No... infact better lol. All the best, from Lisa Scotland 😁👌

[@johnmiller7682]

The truth is, when Kirk says “I need my pain” That’s actually coming from a place of experience. Remember, Kirk was split into two. And it almost killed him. He knows from personal experience that you can’t survive without all the bad stuff.

[@ilanbachar3162]

I honestly think Wesely Crusher became a much better character the day he became a guest star. when they didn't have to write him into every chapter but only brought him when they had something for him to say or do.

[@ferlessleedr]

You mentioned that what Weyoun asks of Jake in order to transmit his writings is unacceptable and you're absolutely correct, but it sounds reasonable and contains an important lesson about Fascism in doing so. Weyoun wants Jake to compromise just a little tiny bit, just a slight little move because he knows if he can get that working relationship with Jake going then he can get him to move quite a bit in what kind of editorial input and control Jake will allow. Fascism comes to be by one party moving a bit and then imploring the other party to meet them in the middle, then repeating this until both parties have crossed a line. It demands to be met but it will never, ever, meet more moderate voices in the middle. It won't shift towards reason. Which is why it's important to resist immediately, because it's easier to never move than to stop moving.

[@richarddeese1991]

*_"There is no difference between gods and men. One blends softly casual into the other."_* Paul Atreides, the Dune books [Frank Herbert]. tavi.

[@TheFranchiseCA]

One of the things I find striking about older polytheistic mythos is how _human_ their deities are. Christianity moved away from that by incorporating Greek philosophical concepts to reimagine God as unembodied and emotionless, even making Jesus's preferred reference of 'Father' into something more like the relationship of pet ownership or of a skilled artisan than that of a parent.

[@grumpyotter]

While showing us his action figures -- "You can see I've swapped the uniforms around." TRANSLATION: "I play with my toys."

[@kennethdick07]

On the topic of a better name for the Changling Leader, perhaps 'Voice of the Link' fits best as, in their natural state, they don't exist as separate entities.

[@johngingras]

Steve, that was a perfect response to my comment. :)

[@McFazzer]

On the Julian Bashir topic and how the retcon works so well that thing retroactively seem like foreshadowing: it could be read that him enjoying the James Bond parody holosuite in ‘Our Man Bashir’ would be because in such a scenario he doesn’t have to ‘play dumb’. When he’s playing the role of hyper competent super spy he’s almost being more true to himself there than anywhere else

[@sergioaccioly5219]

About ST V: the movie has a few more gems in it. Sybok explaining why saying something is impossible because it was never done is awesome to me. Kirk deciding to go on exploring after Sybok returned control of the ship to him uplifting. It made that the only movie about exploration. I'll say that I'd rather rewatch that movie than rewatch many of those that came after it. Hell, to this day I haven't seen Into Darkness or Final Frontier, and don't have any intention of doing that.

[@deaks25]

Fan Service and references can be a lot of fun when they're hidden and aren't required to understand the plot, they're just there for people who know to smile at. Too often, in fact the majority of the time, Fan Service is used to hide bad or lazy writing and that's why I tend to have an unfavourable opinion of Fan Service. If a show/film/writer has to point out that something is "for the long time fans", it's usually code for "we did a crappy job".

[@StarkRG]

Woah, woah, woah, how can that be Thomas Riker if he has side burns? That was a KEY plot point in the DS9 episode, you can't just ignore that. Mattingly, for the last time, get rid of those sideburns!

[@shibolinemress8913]

Another case in point for Q not being a good guy: he put the crew at risk by causing a warp core breach just to test Amanda Rogers' Q powers, would have killed Amanda (under orders from the Continuum) if she hadn't measured up, and condoned or was at least aware that the Continuum murdered Amanda's Q parents.

[@thelifedyslexic]

There is a difference between fan service and self indulgent fan service, it the difference between 'Here's your one Wrath of Khan reference for this series' and 'Here's your second Wrath of Khan this episode, look out of three more next week.' Recent Trek tends to do the latter more often than the former often then not, for me Lower Decks is self aware enough of it own jokes to get away with most of them, most of the time.