Star Citizen: Should you buy the MISC Expanse?

[@STLYoungblood]

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[@Asgar1205]

I think one of the reasons why refining at the stations in game takes so long right now is because they are all at like 270000% capacity according to the refining interface in the stations. So refining onn your ship and it being faster could make sense.

[@dr.johnorr3341]

Another great concept ship breakdown!

[@STLYoungblood]

Thanks Doc!

[@RobinHartJones]

I absolutely agree that *For A Prospector Owner* having an expanse alongside while you mine is fantastic. As to being the expanse owner, I think you have to value your services based on the benefits the prospector is getting and working out a price based on mutual benefit. It makes no sense for the Prospector owner to expect to wait for the refining to finish then get his refined ore back. Leaving aside the timescales, one of the major benefits for him is that he can keep mining when otherwise he would have become full and had to leave a rich source of minerals to go empty his cargo. One option is for him to pay a refining fee then for Escrow to give him the value of the refined ore when it is sold but that is not fair as the expanse is then doing all the haulage and visiting a TDD etc. so there would have to also be a fee for all that. We are now talking about a sizable chunk of the final selling price being lost to fees. A more sensible answer would be that the Prospector just sells his unrefined ore to the expanse and forgets it. He will not want to do that at cost price as we can all do that at refineries and few people do because we can get roughly double that by refining it. This is a mutual benefit arrangement so bearing that in mind, I think the price paid by the expanse should be somewhere in the middle. The prospector is doing the skilled mining but he does not need to stop mining when he has got 64scu and does not have to rush back with quantanium and does not have to go pick up the refined ore in a few hours or days and take it to a TDD down a gravity well. The expanse is buying a commodity that can double in value with little work but then must take it to a major planet and down to the surface and then take a train or tram to a TDD to sell it. Does that mean he should offer 150% of the unrefined price? I think the prospector is getting a better deal so I would probably go for 125%. That sounds bad but consider this: Working alone, imagine the prospector owner collects 20,000 aUEC of unrefined quant in 20 minutes. There is more to be mined nearby but he cannot wait any longer. By taking it to a refinery and waiting and picking it up when he logs in tomorrow he might have 40,000 aUEC. If he sells it to an expanse he gets 25,000 aUEC immediately then goes straight back to mining the other Quantanium and 20 minutes later sells that to the expanse for 25,000 aUEC so, including travelling time, has made 50,000 aUEC in an hour instead of 40,000 in 24 hours. The expanse is paying 50,000 and will get 80,000 back but he does have to haul it to a planet and go to the surface and take a train to the TDD. He is also more exposed to the risk of being intercepted by pirates.

[@Bruce_Warren]

Exactly Robin, except I think CIG will enable Quanta to determine the value of raw-unrefined materials, perhaps by location, quality and availability similar with the price of the fuel or refined product in ways more advanced than we are contending with currently in the Verse. Imagine this, the value of the quantum fuel could be more valuable to a Star Farer Captain, camped in the black or nearer a jump point, or to Grim-Hex or other location where procurement or access to the Trade routes may be restrictive. I think Miners particularly the solo variety, may find themselves competing to compel the Expanse Teams (Expanse(s) w/escorts) to come around and buy their rocks lol just a thought from 50,000km from release. Luv your comment, be well and stay safe!

[@drunkenfox2519]

It could make sense that refining is faster on a ship rather than a station because we can assume the station has many many work orders and that the main reason it takes so much time is because they are constantly backlogged. Not an attack on the video I love the content just trying to give some way to explain away the discrepancy in timing.

[@Kestrelkil]

I got this ship so as a group my org can go out, setup a mining site and skip travel and refinery stops. Totally agree its not a solo ship, unless we will be able to do npc refinery missions at some point

[@chedderdawg23]

What ship did you get in place of this one to be flight ready?

[@Kestrelkil]

@@chedderdawg23 reliant,

[@BizzMRK]

My guess would be that the expanse (and other future refinery ships) would be limited to very fast but very inefficient refinement methods to balance it out with station refineries while not letting the pilot die of boredome. This would make stationary refineries still very viable for high volume maximum efficiency jobs where profits are maximized at the cost of time, while smaller operations can reduce their downtime and increasing their revenue at the cost of efficiency. Running the risk of exploding or being intercepted when hauling quantanium to a station should be more rewarding than instantly dumping it into a nearby expanse for example. Otherwise they would make hauling ores to stations pretty pointless and unnecessarily risky compared to mobile refineries.

[@CraigPaschang]

9:05 the jobs that take 20+ hours are because the stations are artificially overloaded

[@tadecker82]

My daughter and I are looking at running the Prospector/Expanse in tandem. The other option is finding a group of Prospectors that just want a refiner to follow them. Figure percentage of value for refining. The other option is to bring an Expanse, and a modular cargo ship, like a Hull A. A small flotilla of Prospectors, an Expanse or two, and a modular cargo vessel (or two) to take the refined material to the market, could lead to HUGE profits. As far as refining times, think about this: (If you hunt, this will make more sense) You bag a deer. You can "process" it and butcher it yourself, and potentially piss off / gross out your neighbors, or you can take it to a meat processor / butcher to do it for you, at the cost of time and money. No commercial meat processor or butcher is going to prioritize your deer over whatever larger, contractual, obligations they may have. So, your deer is going on ice, until they have time to process it. The refineries in Star Citizen SHOULD be following the same model. If so, then the refining time isn't because the process takes so long, but because the refinery isn't going to prioritize your small batch of resources over the larger commercial contracts. THAT is why refining takes so long. Therefore, I'm willing to bet that refining an entire 8scu bag of Quantonium only takes 10-15 minutes. Otherwise, there's no real benefit to a small refining ship, like the Expanse. Mining, and transporting the resources to a refiner takes time, and costs money. The Expanse, on the other hand, is an investment up front, that ELIMINATES the TIME and MONEY that is lost in the transportation and refining of raw materials. The Expanse was specifically designed as a companion to a Prospector. If that is truly the case, then the time to mine and fill 4 8scu bags with a Prospector must be close to the same amount of time it would take an Expanse to refine half that amount. That is why the Expanse carries 8 cargo bags. While it processes the initial 4 bags, it can jettison 4 empty bags for the Prospector to continue mining. Once the Prospector is done filling them, the Expanse should have finished refining the previous 4 bags. 1. Prospector arrives at location, and begins mining. 2. Expanse arrives, drops 4 empty bags, picks up Prospector's 4 full bags. 3. Expanse begins refining process, and Prospector continues mining. 4. Expanse drops 4 empty bags, retains bags with newly refined materials. 5. Prospector drops newly filled bags, grabs 4 empty bags, continues mining. 6. Expanse grabs 4 loaded bags, starts refining process, and leaves for market. 7. Expanse arrives at market, buys supplies for ship and companion ship. Refining is completed. Expanse sells refined product, and returns to Prospector. 8. Prospector finishes mining 4 bags, and goes and brews a pot of coffee. 9. Expanse arrives with 8 empty bags, a ton of cash, and a piping hot, Chicago-style, deep dish, pizza. 10. Break Time...pizza and Irish Coffee 11. The Prospector drops his loaded bags, grabs 4 empties from the Expanse, and the cycle begins again. So, whatever the average amount of time it takes to fill the mining bags of the Prospector is roughly the same time it would take to refine 32scu of raw materials. If that is the case, it makes the Expanse an invaluable tool for mining in any group session.

[@Ninja7546]

Honestly if all the cargo pods are full with material being processed, the prospectors will be back to mining and running back to stations after an hour or two. What's better is probably a Hercules picking up bags, delivering them to the station, setting up refinement then doubling back to the prospector.

[@SolaAesir]

Yeah, they're going to have a very fine needle to thread for the balance between making a refinery ship absolutely required, and making refinery ships completely worthless compared to just transporting the ore back to a refinery with a hauler. The hauler is going to be out there anyway once we're able to drop and manipulate the bags after all, it's either going to be bringing back the raw ore or the refined ore. Is having a refinery on-site really better than having another Prospector or Mole mining away? It would be really easy to see an Expanse sitting there just for Quantanium stabilization (if it can even do that) and nothing else.

[@Ninja7546]

@@SolaAesir I agree it would help with quantanium stabilisation. That might justify its use. Is it enough though? Definitely a fine needle to thread in regards to balance. Beyond that you can still probably profit more in one session mining laranite and having the hauler do runs. Line up 4 or so refines in one session of non stop mining with two prospectors and a hauler, there's your money.

[@avatar6699]

A reasonable answer to the solo issue.. using a Liberator as a mobile refining platform where the Prospector goes out to collect ore then returns and drops the materials into the Expanse which is docked on the top rear landing platform of the Liberator. The Liberator's hold can store 400 scu, extra saddlebags, and act as the fleet and cargo/ore/refined goods transport back to stations for sale.

[@michaeljemery]

Leaving a site that you haven't fully mined and the time wasted travelling have always been significant drivers for switching up to a MOLE. The Prospector plus Expanse combo mitigates all those issues with a very profitable two-man team, without the "Quantanium panic". With the limited details we have, this seems to make the MOLE much harder to justify from a time vs income perspective. I would also wager that two Prospectors and one Expanse would be far superior to a three-man MOLE team, and a lot more fun. Should we add a Hull A to keep the Expanse on station? That all depends on how quickly the Expanse can process material. Mining stations may have larger reactors, but they aren't dedicated to you alone. I can see a reasonable argument as to why having six small reactors of your own may work considerably faster than a station. The Q&A can't some soon enough.

[@BizzMRK]

I highly doubt that the expanse will be nearly as efficient as station based refineries for balance reasons. I can imagine that you lose quiet a bit of refined materials because of less efficient refinement methods for example. It likely has fast but inefficient refinement methods, considering long but efficient ones would render the expense useless for a significant amount of time.

[@michaeljemery]

@@BizzMRK I see no reason as to why the Expanse is "likely" to be fast but inefficient, but that is certainly one of many possibilities. We'll just have to wait and see.

[@Victura_Gaming]

good to hear you back at it!

[@Legendary_Tales]

When the cargo refactor happens, will we be able to put items inside the ore "sacks/bags" manually? As in, for smuggling?

[@gaspercarman9149]

It stands to reason that Refinaries in stations are accepting jobs from a lot of people thus the reason why it takes so long to refine while Expense will be capable of refining on the spot and since they mentioned the whole trade ships taking the refined material to sell it would very likely be safe to assume it will not take hours to refine the material but more likely it will take a few minutes at most especially if a mini game is involved. My guess would be that just like with mining there will be some interaction with refining probably and assuming not being careful there will be loss of refined material.

[@Power5]

You can watch the job process on the refinery screen. It begins as soon as you pay the invoice. 25 hours is how long processing takes using Dinyx. So, the expanse will need to use handwavium to be faster than a station. And if it is able to refine in less time than a station, the refinery would have realized how good the ship is at refining and just parked dozens of expanse ships in a hangar bay and used them as their refineries, not built an entire station infrastructure.

[@gaspercarman9149]

@@Power5 Let me give you the most basic example I can think of. You go to cinema to watch a movie however in order to get buy a ticket you have to wait in a line. It would be a similar thing with refineries in Star Citizen when you put in an order one would assume there's already other orders being processed whatever they be from other players or NPCs there being the crucial reason as to why refineries in stations take that long. At least that would be my assumption while in case of Expanse sure who knows how long it will take however it would stand to reason since it only refines those jobs it will be faster then being queued in station refineries. Then again like I said it's purely my speculation since it would probably work the same way in real life.

[@Power5]

@@gaspercarman9149 Not sure about that analogy. I wait in line to get a ticket, then proceed to watch a movie at the same time as all the other customers. If someone gets there an hour early, they get their movie at the same time as me if I walk in just as the opening credits are starting. So that refine time would not be the same for each customer. Or the analogy if flawed. I have seen the refinery capacity around 100% and I have seen the refinery capacity at like 50,000%. Refine time has always been basically a day for 32SCU using Dinyx method. If it is a day at 100% capacity, it should be 500x longer at 50,000% capacity. Or almost 2 years. So at least right now that capacity means nothing. That being said, if a company is making people wait that long and is always over capacity, the company would recognize demand and open more processing capacity by expanding, or just jacking up the pricing. But that would lead to someone else swooping in to undersell their price point and gain customers.

[@gaspercarman9149]

@@Power5 The point wasn't that everyone goes in at the same time more than there's a queue. And again it's purely speculation I don't think the backend of station refineries is at this time made to adjust timer based on how many jobs etc are being processed just gives you a defined number being another reason why it's so easy to create calculators for them. Either way, Expanse has to take a much shorter time refining material so it can do it on the spot otherwise what would be the point of it other than save the couple of aUEC .

[@Anachroschism]

You are saying exactly what I've been saying to people. Right now, most folks are saying "I'll just run back to the station", but there's a theme with these upcoming ships - refinery, refuelling, carrier, and that is likely making us self-sufficient in a system like Pyro. I don't know what the state of refinery stations in Pyro will be, or the frequency of places to refuel, but I do know it's far bigger than Stanton, so popping back to the station might not be a viable option for miners, especially as it may alert pirates to you being there. Refining speed is the thing. Maybe they suggest that stations are slower, due to the amount of work they have to do, for many people, both real and imaginary, whereas a dedicated refinery ship can do it much quicker. It would be ridiculous to have such long jobs in a typical player's game session. As for buying the ship, it's a starter refinery, and likely going to end up permanently available on the store, but not that expensive in game, just like the Prospector.

[@arrclyde4325]

Also about the handling the job. I see there two doable ways. First: solo refining ship. A miner calls for a refining ship, because he git a good spot. The Expanse captain comes and buys the raw material for a little more that the refinery would pay for raw ore, refines it and sells it later for a profit. Win win rihht there, the miner makes some quick cash right away and the refiner gets profits from selling. Second: the group operation. A prospector mines, an Expanse refines and a Taurus (example) picks up the bags of refined material to sell, on the way back he brings more spare saddle bags with him. That is all because i think that ship refining will be much much faster that the station.

[@suboptimal4539]

Great Questions! I had the same ones, I’m glad you brought them up.

[@Bruce_Warren]

🙋🏽‍♂Good day to you STL and thank you for another thought-provoking video. Your points and presentation are excellent as usual. I have been watching your vids for about as long as I’ve been enjoying SC (since DEC 2021) Thanks for the help! My first thoughts and impressions of the Expanse: -The name sort of fits; “the distance to which something expands or can be expanded” ("the moth has a wing expanse of 20 to 24 mm"). The Expanse does appear to nullify the volatility of mined-unrefined Quantanium at least, thus expanding the distance of a haul until the ship reaches it’s destination or runs out of fuel. Possibly a good Lore point for its development (how it all but eliminated the endemic pandemic of mining vessel explosion accidents of a certain period before it’s introduction to the verse, it’s styling certainly makes it look old enough lol -I feel that this vehicle’s capabilities (“6 reactors” =6 processes) may have been inspired in part by the community’s debate over the Odyssey’s refining capabilities lol wouldn’t that be ironic. -I liken it in ways to the ARGO R.A.F.T except it renders the cargo into a refined product during transit/transfer. -Quantanium/Fuel Brokerage- One or more Expanse with escort could orbit a planet or navigate an asteroid belt for purpose of purchasing/collecting raw Quantanium from Miners; Prospector/Mole etc. to refine for resale to fuel brokers, Station, Star Farer Captains, Fuel Depots in space or customers on the surface. Similar could apply to minerals used in manufacturing processes. With the implementation of Quanta, development of persistence and cargo refractor it can be that upon SC’s release a ship like the Expanse may be instrumental in distributing/hedging resources. For instances some in the verse will not subscribe to FPS themselves, not to mention many more will rue the additional stress of preventing oneself from blowing up in space, interdictions etc. from the You Tube and forum comments many miners may hold these sentiments. Perhaps if they were offered a service which purchases their raw Quantanium at the source and assumes the liabilities and expense of refinement and sale of the Quantum Fuel many would subscribe to the idea and voila another Trucker stream of income flourishes. The miners get to remain in the mines/fields and do what they enjoy, spending more time on-site and without the additional expenses and risk associated with getting the fruits of his/her labors to market. Everything is completely transactional and Quanta would take into account this additional supply chain (another opportunity for Player cooperation to impact the economy of the verse) -Minerals Exploration- discovery/exploitation support ship, I wonder if it would fit in an Endeavor Bay? We know the Prospector will fit in an Odyssey’s Hangar. I have the Odyssey and a CCU for the Endeavor, which also compelled me to purchase the Expanse. -Transfer ship between the mining site and a base of operations for a larger Org or cooperative operations. -Outpost-Support vessel- delivering refined, fuels/materials to the surface from larger vessels that do not enter atmosphere or land in gravity. -Black market/Outlaw fuel hauler- Use your imagination lol 👍🏽Thanks again for your insights and taking the time to share them with the community! Even when I may disagree with one of your assertions, I make more thought out, measured decisions in my ship buying!

[@STLYoungblood]

Great thoughts and notes Bruce! Thanks for sharing

[@Azreal15]

To be fair, by the time this ship comes out. I definitely see server meshing being out by then. I don’t see this ship coming into the PU until mid to late next year, at the earliest. So the overall situation for this ships viability in game will be different than now. That said, its still a group oriented endeavor. Be it used by a group, or you as a solo player offering it services to a group.

[@Davums]

How long will the concept sale last? 1 or 2 weeks?

[@LuluGamingDK]

This is a hundred percent more worth it... Here's the other thing you have to take into consideration... When server machine hits. Every refinery station can holding a maximum of 6 jobs. That's not a lot. This will help relieve the pressure on the refinery stations. This will definitely make it easier to do much. Larger runs and group runs. Allowing your minor to stay on site even longer. And when and if crafting and base building? And ship components and upkeep coming to play, where miners will play a very large role in that economy, having a organized group between refinery, minor and transport is going to be a lot more convenient than going up to a station and paying a hundred Credit, see the for a thirty two hour job. When you can use your own resources and save that money and time. Yes, right now. It doesn't have much of a use, but in pyro. And when more of the games loops. And mechanics are released. You're gonna want a few refinery ships in your organization.

[@SCTimbal]

Boils down to: - Wanna help your miner buds in your org? - Is your org set up to run mining ops, including plans for escorts? (The pew pew kind, not the.... Well you get what I mean.) - Don't want to run combat or cargo? - Don't mind that the ship could be a prime target for pirates? - Don't want to spend over three times the price of a modern AAA game for one ship? Then this ship prolly is for you.

[@GhostOfSnuffles]

I'm imagining that if someone going to try and solo that ship and offering their services they're going to advertise what kind of refining techniques and prices charged upfront so that when people contact them for services both parties already know exactly what's up. If it's the kind of ship people will take along as a group refining time and techniques become null as it will be adjusted on the fly for maximum effectiveness. I think that's the main strength of that specific ship, the fact that if it's used in team setting that things can be adjusted on the spot. But like you said it's all up to what the ship can actually do.

[@TairnKA]

If I had one, I'd either just process the material to negate any dangerous properties it has or, additionally process the materials that is quick and at a base level of profitability (for myself), to my customer, when they sell. Either process would enable to safely transport the materials to a refinery station for further processing (and customer profit). I'd get paid (flat rate, plus repairs? and fuel) at the start of either process, plus any bonuses if the customer wish to, after they sell. The Slogan; "My purpose is to process, not purchase." ;-)

[@timothyt.82]

I think this ship will excel in org camps. Let's say an org has a few large ships, like a MISC Endeavor and Starfarer. That's awesome! You have the grounds for a pretty sweet base of operations. But now you have to wonder how you'll generate UEC. Well, the Starfarer is obvious, because now any visiting ships that bump into your camp can request fuel for a fee. Now we have an option for refining ores and quantanium. Maybe you have someone out in a Prospector or a Mole that has the goods but doesn't have the means to get to a station for processing. Your MISC Expanse now can generate profits for your org while providing a service to the community as a whole. You have your org to defend you while you're processing the ores, and you may very well have a small fleet of Expanses for your own mining operations that can double as public refineries and safe zones. Star Citizen is at it's heart a Massive Multiplayer Online First Person Shooter Role Playing Game. One of it's core features is to play with others and form orgs that you can pool resources together. The Expanse is evidence of the intended gameplay the devs want, and while solo players may not be able to see a use for themselves, they will still be able to benefit from the ship in the community.

[@Power5]

From the images it appears there is only a tractor beam on the back. So, prospector/mole pulls up and drops a bag. The Expanse then grabs it with the tractor beam and sucks out the minerals for refining. I would assume it puts that directly into one of the reactors. When done the refined ore must go into the side bags for holding until they are retrieved. But not having a tractor beam on the sides, I assume only a tractor beam equipped cargo ship will be able to pick up those bags. Then not sure how the expanse with its back tractor beam gets another side bag in place. Seems very clunky. Current hand tractor beam only works line of sight. So, there is no way that the rear tractor beam can put bags on the sides of the expanse. Curious to see how this thing actually functions.

[@CouchCit]

Too many unknowns here. If the pods can be ejected for selling of cargo then there'd have to be a system in place for emptying the contents and moving the pods back onto the ship. If we need a ship's tractor beam to move them then I doubt a multi-tool will work, so how exactly do we xfer the pods back n forth with cargo ships? What happens if the pods are destroyed?

[@Lightstep9]

Thank you for the video! You make some excellent points. For myself the $135 LTI is the only assurance acting as upgrade to something else. Based on your comments, some additional examples: I assume that refining will work while the ship is in storage or it has some ability to refine faster vs a station? Cost/benefit, what are the fuel costs needed to be able to power the ship vs refining at a station? How many jobs can it refine before needing to refuel? Another is there has to be a big noise signature so getting spotted by the haters will be super easy. Whew, the more thought put into it, You are spot on, there are just too many unknowns.

[@STLYoungblood]

Great thoughts on the noise and signature!

[@Cornerboy73]

I always figured the long processing time in stations was more about them being like, 1000% over capacity all the time. I would expect the refining gameplay for these to be some sort of minigame this is much much shorter with the downtime being you will only be able to do so much before either getting a friend to come haul the commodities away to heading back to sell it yourself. Anyway, we'll see - I personally welcome any new industrial ships being added to the game and I hope this works out for those who pledge for it. Thanks o7

[@STLYoungblood]

I agree with that perspective...stations are taking in jobs from the 90%, NPC, where the ship can pick or choose, and I guess t hey are going to implement on future design vs. current reality.

[@skyvenrazgriz8226]

I am missing the point where all solo prospectors lose half of their current cargo capacity they have right now, as you will have to dumb your first set of sattlebacks before you can use your second half (currently you just have magicly twice the space as a workarround or did the desgin change?)

[@Kazockas]

I look at this, and I think like you did. The Expanse is a org level ship. Its not made for solo play at all. Also like you said, there are TOO MANY QUESTIONS. That we need answered. The one that I would like to see is. Assuming that the reactors are similar to ones on stations, will there be consumables that will resemble the refining processes that you would find on a station? Or will it be just a default shorter refine time that gives off less quantity.

[@invader218]

Can't they have a medium ship that can do both mine and refine? I like the design of the MISC ships, but I want a solo ship that does both to make money wile I am not playing with the org.

[@reavern]

Great ship buying guide. I bought the Roughneck Pack the day it became available for Concierge members... but the Expanse had little to do with my purchasing decision. I wanted a Freelancer MAX, Vulture, and Prospector with LTI. I only bought the Expanse because I want to try refining when the ship is flyable to determine what refining will be like in my RSI Orion -- because even though the Expanse is only a concept ship, I suspect it will become flyable before the Orion. I'm not interested in the Expanse because I don't think entry-level Refining makes sense. I acknowledge that it makes sense for Quantanium mining, for the reasons STLYoungblood explained. However, IF the Starfarer's onboard refinery can process raw Quantanium into Quantanium Fuel, that nullifies the Expanse's primary selling point. That should be the #1 question for the Expanse Q&A (but I predict that CIG is gonna dodge that question because it's really about the Starfarer, not the Expanse). As for using the Expanse to refine resources instead of using a Refinery station, I don't think it makes sense to transfer a Prospector or MOLE's detachable storage pods to the Expanse instead of a Hauler ship to deliver to a station to refine the resources. Logically, the Expanse being a small, entry-level mobile refinery, its capabilities should be inferior to a Refinery station, i.e. slower, less efficient, lower yields, etc. The only benefit of the Expanse is it could be cheaper than using a Refinery station IF it doesn't charge customers any Refining fees. But that depends on whether the Expanse's refinery has any operating costs, i.e. burning fuel or using consumables to refine. Even if the Expanse has no operating costs or refining fees, those fees charged by Refinery stations are insignificant: ~3000 aUECs for 64 SCU of raw ore, depending on the selected refinery process. 64 SCU of anything worth mining will be worth 50,000-250,000 aUEC after it's refined, so 3K in refining fees is well worth it. Especially considering the RISKS of operating an Expanse in the PU, which are: Pirate attacks, collisions/accidents, refining malfunctions, and server disconnects/game crashes. If an Expanse is only saving ~3000 aUEC per work order and the average work order pays out 150,000 aUECs, if an Expanse loses only 1 work order in 50, it will be operating at a LOSS. I doubt any Miner or Hauler will claim they've achieved a success rate equal to 49 out of 50. Does anyone believe an Expanse will achieve a greater than 98% success rate? Is ANY player in Star Citizen that skilled or lucky? I don't think so. Just hire a Hauler to deliver your mined resources to a Refinery station and save yourself $150 on this boondoggle.

[@sguyouttanowhere8319]

If I had to harmonize them I would change the mining station delay to the fact that you are but one job in a long line of jobs and the actual process takes 5 to 15 or so minutes depending on process with the balancing factor being the cost. The Expanse should have a limited menu among the faster but less efficient processes . To make up for that it can filter the contents down to 100 percent of what you want. For quantainium it offers a stabilization process pre-final refinement to further ship or it can fully refine a 100 percent load with a significant time penalty to do so. I think those answers could get us to a buy decisi.

[@rockseeker]

Great 'Should you buy' once again. Thanks also for the UEMC shout out! 🙂

[@istvan5674]

I added this ship to my fleet. For my org, it makes sense. We have Moles and Expanses together with a hauler and security.

[@Lady_Violet]

I got this ship and am really looking forward to joining our org-mates who have been doing mining for a while now.

[@vegas6908]

Third. I already own a prospector as a pledge ship. I am wondering how could I even use this ship as a solo player?

[@STLYoungblood]

Taking jobs from others, and when servers get beyond what we have now, or NPC's start asking for help via missions for this job type, it could work.

[@mesasone2280]

@@STLYoungblood I wonder if the way this works for solo players is that you just end up buying the raw material from the miners and then sell on the refined minerals.

[@originalkhawk]

my completely baseless assumptions about this ship are that its going to be faster processing but lower yields then the avarage refinery at a space station with the only cost to the expanse owner being the fuel it takes to keep the ship running, adding the comfort of quick and easy access to cheap (almost free) refinining, and ofsetting that with lower yields. the justification of why the expanse refines faster could be that its a limited amount of processing, in contrast to a rifinery at a station where potentially 10's or 100's of thousands of people have their ore refined. and the way i assume the transaction between miner and refiner are going to work, is that the miner sells the raw ore for slightly more then the raw ore price, the refiner refines the ore and either gets it on a hauler and sells it, or sells it on to a hauler for somewhere in between the price they bought it for and the market value. outside of orgs i don't really see a miner offload raw ore and take back refined ore for a refining fee, at least not in the current stage of the game. maybe once stuff is more developed, a miner can offload their raw ore onto a Expanse, the Expanse refines it and drops it off at the nearest spaceport for the miner to collect at the end of the day, but since those features are not in the game yet (and might not ever be in the game), for now i think it will just be Expanse owners buying up raw ore from miners.

[@chrisandrews3979]

You make a lot of really good points. I think the expanse ir really designed for orgs. I would not find much fun buying a ship where 95% of the time is sitting around waiting for refinery jobs to complete. What also happens if you give a 20 hr job to an expanse and then they end up on a different server the next day? How will you collect your cargo?

[@commanderroddi7742]

I think the Pack that comes w/ a Prospector gives you a clue of the refining capability of the ship: Small, you're likely to need multiple of these to properly support a MOLE (I'd imagine that a MOLE size refinery is yet to come).. This ship is NOT for lone-wolf players because it will need at Least a buddy with a Prospector. as far as refining, I'd imagine that I'll be able to do little jobs (about 8 SCU is what I think) fairly quickly? Otherwise that'd make game play a bit too tedious (just educated guess). For solo players, get a Prospector or Vulture and Mine/Salvage., With Prospector you can mine while you accumilate refinery jobs and then use a cargo ship (Freelancer, Max, Taurus, Raft, something) to take cargo to sell. Lastly, Notice that a Hull A or Freelancer would be great companion for little Operations. Like Prospector for mining, Expanse for refining, and a Freelancer (I'd choose Max) to ferry cargo and sell (though a pair of Freelancers would give a 4 man op the ability to keep a ship or two that have a bit of a fighting capability not requiring fighters.

[@ghazman6141]

Good video. The ability to stay on station when finding multiple Q-rocks is awesome. I predict the Expanse and mining ship will stay close together during the whole operation, and refined ore will be transferred to a cargo ship to be sold where they want. The Expanse would have to buy the unrefined ore, then sell it to the cargo ship, else everyone would be stuck waiting for the final sale to get their money. If you're out mining in the asteroid belt, nobody is going to find you, so having weapons is like mammary glands on a nun...pointless. I'd like to see what the Expanse does with a decaying load of Q-rock. Does the decaying just stop as soon it's transferred over? Fun times for all if the bag explodes mid-transfer.

[@eddiemac3726]

Solid video as usual thanks man, ended up getting the misc pack myself.

[@BrentODell]

For me, the big selling point, and a reason to get it, is the Quantanium refining. Not needing to worry about running back to a station to avoid exploding is HUGE. Being able to stay out and keep mining will have a huge impact on mining income.

[@jacobdavies8820]

I think this ship would make most sense seperate from mining ships. The ship lingers near a squad of independent miners. The expanse buys the ore at a discount price and keeps the refined goods. Although the miners sell at a cheaper price than at a station, they save the journey ten fold and so can make more money quicker.

[@Magill2571]

How long will the refining prosses take for the ship as it takes quite a while in a station.

[@DaedalEVE]

I have an Orion, so I’ll pass. I either need an industrial solution or will let a station handle it. Also I’m broke IRL after spending nearly six grand on other stuff.

[@LordTiberius52]

I've got an Orion in melt. But I'll still probably get a CCU to the expanse. $5 or $10 down payment. And I HATE the mining gameplay. (prospector, ROC...) "keep the ball between the lines." But have no idea what the refinery process will be. So I'll probably try it out on the Expanse. Maybe I'll like it. But it will probably be just another sort of keep the ball between the lines, but with different colors. At least with the Orion I can be master of the ship. Hire crew to do the hated mining. And refining if I hate too.

[@TwiggyAirsoft]

The biggest issue I see with the expanse being if QT refining takes 12+ hours it will be useless for long chunks of time while you wait for jobs to finish.

[@donthunder5288]

maybe it works as a safe container while u mining and when ur done u can store the ship and retrieve refined QT the next day and then sell it

[@TwiggyAirsoft]

@@donthunder5288 Q&A confirmed the refining stops if you store the ship sadly.

[@xzcvz]

but did they say it would take 12 hours ?

[@TwiggyAirsoft]

@@xzcvz They did say it would refine faster since it's smaller batches and doesn't have to wait for other jobs like the big refineries, but we don't know how much faster exactly yet.

[@coina-dig-tion6322]

maybe the Prospector/Expanse combo is best utilized by either an Org with enough members to always be able to have both available or a couple of friends who know the other will be on server to make the process smooth or at least predictable.

[@philwade2556]

Solo mining and refining might be more viable when we have hangers

[@KeglekongenDK]

Throwing the Expanse + Prospector or Vulture on the Liberator, then stay in space for a long period of time filling up the cargo bay in the Liberator, is the gameplay loop I want!! I can be completely self sufficient solo, making money =)

[@BrentODell]

I wouldn't be surprised if the only refining modes it has are the faster, less efficient modes, especially if stored/offline refining isn't a thing(hopefully it is). I still think it will be worth it though, and agree on the 'you should buy*' vote

[@VosperCDN]

I like the look of the ship, and the role it plays for anyone in an org, but given my (mostly) solo intentions in the verse it's a big negative for me buying it. Thank you again for doing these - there was certainly questions you raised that need to be answered by CIG before the sales over.

[@Austintatious_One]

CIG.. Don't forget to add a refinery conversion kit for one of the hangers on the kraken.. Common sense says its quicker than stations, station that have limited capacity.. The stations always say there capacity is at 3000% (over its maximum) "warning long waiting times" 🤷‍♂️

[@anthony_hw]

Players: BUT MAH SOLO PLAY! CIG: LOL solo des nutz There are so many ships now. Good on CIG for throwing orgs a bone.

[@mustrumridcully3853]

We're yet to see which materials the Pioneer will need to build bases. If the Expanse can offer materials at cost, then it's just paid for itself. I have the Prospector & Pioneer already - the Expanse can offer me a game loop potentially. Even if it cant, it still offers me refined materials for less hassle.

[@Dracounguis]

MISC seems to be the small version of mining and refining. I'm going to guess there's going to be an Argo medium sized refining ship at some point. _(It will probably be offered right before ship based refining is actually in the game.)_ And unless they have nearly ready ship sized tractor beams hidden up their sleeve, this ship won't be functional for quite a while. But for $135 you'll be getting loaners of a Prospector & a Reliant Kore till it comes out, so that's probably a decent deal. 😆

[@mesasone2280]

I'd like to see a Liberator sized refinery ship that a MOLE (or multiple prospectors) can dock to and unload their mined materials, refines it and then loads the refined materials into cargo pods for the RAFT to pick up. Could also do smaller crates to be loaded into other cargo ships as well.

[@WookieeRage]

Looks like a prefect fit for Pyro.

[@cv368]

The whole idea of the ore bags being shuffled around raises another question with me. Sure, Its been in the Prospectors description for ages that they can be ejected and picked up by a support ship. But with the emphasis on them being a UEE-wide standard container and the pledge store stats already giving a concrete number for cargo capacity, could the Expanse - at least in the long run - also gain a second purpose as raw material hauler? I highly doubt the Expanse will be unable to sell finished refining jobs straight out of the ship and by nature and already known stats it should have at least medium range and speed in qt. So strictly speaking once the cargo refactor and tractor beams are fully live there will be no logical reason other than a dev decision against it why one couldnt also just buy at least already refined minerals or metals in or into those bags, hook them up to the side mounts and be on their way to selling them.

[@Deamonomnibusintenebris]

I would use the Expanse and Prospector solo. But I would have them brought to a mining site with the Liberator. So everything is together.

[@Damiv]

CIG stopped making ship brochures because they were tired of the playerbase expecting the ships to be what they were sold as.

[@gatorpika]

They will have to change the refining time for stuff for this to work. There's no way they can expect players to sit there for 12 hours waiting for jobs to finish before the next Prospector can unload. It might make more sense if it was something massive like an Orion that could keep loading for the entire time, but not something that's going to fill up and 90% of your play time is waiting for jobs to finish. So probably they shorten the time significantly, which doesn't really affect your earning rate much since you don't have to wait for jobs to finish before you start mining again. So it's not going to trash the economy or whatever. My question is how they cycle bags between the mining ships, refinery ships and cargo ships, then back. If I am a prospector can I pull empties off of a cargo ship or something or do I get it back from the refining ship? I hope we aren't going to have to go back to a station to reload bags.

[@BigBobBlazer]

Assuming the Expanse can refine MOLE bags, the Expanse makes a great companion for a group of friends mining in a MOLE. A group of 3-4 would be optimal. When not setting up refinery orders, the Expanse owner can EVA to the MOLE and operate one of the three mining turrets. Maximize efficiency while not allowing the Expanse owner to get bored just sitting in his ship, waiting for the next load to be delivered. But it all does depend on how long it takes the Expanse to process these orders. If it's as long or longer than a station, it's borderline pointless. They could adjust station processing to make it more logical for the Expanse to get it done more quickly, stating that the station refineries have a backlog of multiple orders from other clients which is why it takes so long to process. Who knows. We'll see.

[@LMMSDeadDuck]

A lot of good, thoughtful questions, especially if you are thinking of this as a primary income generator. However, I'm planning to use this with my org mates (like PXP ^_^) and friends. Going out and doing things as a group has always been more fun than just doing things solo - Even if/especially when I do end up incapacitated and dragged naked through Everus Harbor before realizing they can't put me on a gurnery.

[@tticd]

THIS IS PURE SPECULATION, BUT....I think the jobs might be faster in the Expanse, but limited in what type you can do. So one expanse might be able to do the "Carmack Solution" (or whatever it's called), while another is doing Dynax. The advantage of the stations will be that they can do all of them. The downside being that there's a line and they have a bunch of jobs, so you have to wait. Still - how fast is fast? Hard to say until it's in our hands. Reckon that will take a lot of balancing to dial in the "fun."

[@jockcop4205]

I have a expanse, prospector and liberator. I plan to run it with friends but the Lib makes solo’ing much more possible.

[@arrclyde4325]

To be honest. Your comparison is a bit off between the Expanse and a giant station. The answer is simple: The Expanse only serves one Prospector at a time, the Station is simulating that it is working on thousands of refining jobs at the same time. That is why refining there takes so long. The Expanse on the otherhand can refine much faster, because its dealing with only one (as in ship loads) refining job. Next tome you are at a refining station look out for the "workload" percentage.

[@LordCritish]

Will it even be worth to mine in Pyro? According to the lore the system has been stripped clean of resources long ago.

[@maxjergens]

Prospector was going to work side by side with the Expanse but now that the Prospector is being punished out of group game play, it won't be able to mine with the Expanse without blowing up the Expanse because of the Prospectors Punishment nerf.

[@Hawkeye6941]

The package deal I bought just to get a LTI prospector and get the expanse as a LTI token for a 45 dollars saving in total.

[@novagoth]

So you can’t equip the expanse with mining lasers and Ming and refine all in one?

[@STLYoungblood]

Nope, weapons and hard points don’t cross professions like you can in ED

[@OneSh0tReset]

I always imagine it working is the refinery ship pays the minor outright for the materials and then they refine and go sell earning their profit back

[@mouseno4]

Finally. Was really waiting for this video.

[@nahhmann4381]

i wouldnt say its a solo ship this ship would work great in a group mining operation

[@Christian_ThePumpkinDestroyer]

That's sad i was planning on using it as a Ground Vehicle.

[@51ghardy]

I think its clear CIG didn't think this process through. I don't see how this process works without seriously speeding up ( or changing) the space station portion.

[@STLYoungblood]

Its a real question needing answered for sure

[@MissSanctus]

We'll likely see station buffs with a shorter time, whereas a ship may be longer, that's just my prediction however, and its not an awful one.

[@STLYoungblood]

It flat out doesn't make sense for a ship to be slower than a station unless the reasoning is that NPC are putting so many jobs in that it's not practical. That's the direction I think they'll go since we're supposed to be 10% of the total pop

[@MissSanctus]

@@STLYoungblood Very fair take, Just felt more like they'd modify it in that direction, either buffing the stations, or keeping them on par with the refinery ship(s). Since stations would have better power plants, and refining facilities, we are still in alpha ultimately, not sure if they already have a plan or if they're still making one at the moment. I just don't see the ship out performing a space station in those means! I could be wrong, but that's my stance, who knows, they could just make the ships perform flat out better it just would feel really awkward to me at least to do that.

[@thalstantrailwalker2393]

STL...I suspect that you are not going to be doing escrow type jobs. If you want to sell refined ore you mined in a Prospector/MOLE, you probably need to take it to a station yourself and have them refine it. I suspect you will sell your ore to the person who owns the refinery for an agreed upon price. They then will have the choice of what process to use based on their experience and what's going on around them. If they can get lots of 32 SCU ore loads every 15-20 minutes, then they will use a fast technique. If they get one 32 SCU load every hour, or every 4 hours, they will use a slower process. They will then refine the ore and either sell that to a cargo hauler, or they will take their ship and bring it to a planet where they can offload and sell the ore. Being honest, you will probably earn less per load in your prospector than you would if you sold it as raw ore to a station, and certainly less than you would get completing the entire game loop, but you also get paid right away and you can stay out there, continuing to mine, so you will earn more per hour because you have significantly less travel time.

[@parzivel7587]

they are going to seriously need to change things on this ship. especially if there is going to be any chance of solo gameplay at all

[@Nosdeblack]

I think this ship will need to be released with a pack of mining missions where npcs use Prospectors and Moles to guarantee its gameplay to lonely players.

[@Dracounguis]

I bought this ship. I'm kind of a sucker for MISC's designs. And I think at $135 it's probably a bit undervalued since we probably won't see this ship functional for years.

[@gaspercarman9149]

While it's just my assumption based on the fact that Hull series are slowly coming into the game Trading will probably be updated first and sometime after I would assume mining will also receive an update which will probably include the Expanse.

[@Charok1]

sucker is right

[@Dracounguis]

@@Charok1 you're soo witty. 🥱

[@DanakarEndeel]

Looks like a nice ship but that single S1 shield is a little pathetic for a ship that's the size of a Freelancer. CIG should have given it at least 2xS2 shields. Not going to bother with this one myself as I don't like ships where I'm at the mercy of others. As such I'd rather just relax in my Prospector and fly that one back to a station when needed. Additionally I already have an Orion from back in the day when they were still the original price so I'm sure that I can use that for large scale mining and refining. My extra gamepacks should give me customizable NPCs who can then serve as crewmembers. 🙂 But if you have a few friends with Prospectors who like to mine a lot then this MISC Expanse might be the ship for you.

[@StarCitizenUniversal]

It's going to have to be hideously inefficient in order for it to make sense in the 'verse. Still going to have a place in sparsely populated systems though.

[@carstenschops7797]

About soloability: My guess is that one day the refining process is going to be interactive, aka a mini game. Thus mining and refining solo will not be THAT effective.

[@BizzMRK]

iirc the scope of manual input for refining never went past deciding what minerals in particular to filter for, to which container which material is sent and what refinement method to be used. That could change of course, but considering refinement should mainly be done on stations or player bases with refneries and the expanse mainly being intended for very remote operations I doubt they will go that deep into refining.

[@STLYoungblood]

I don't disagree with that

[@born2biscuit]

sigh they really really should have made a dock on the top or bottom that the prospector connects to that transfers the ore and the pilot into the expanse. Gonna have to pass on it because of this.

[@stompar]

Short answer. Yes. Long answer yes if you intend on mining operations or if you want to earn some money via industrial means.

[@zippofire8550]

This is so me, watching such a video, after buying the concept xD

[@master8127]

We dont know anything about the gameplay mechanics, so the answer is a hard nope..... Also I see the refining guy as someone you sell your ore to, not to hire him for refining it and then giving it back to you (which wouldnt make sense in a prospector)

[@toasterdk]

I thought we would get this fairly soon... Ohh boy i was wrong. Its allmost a year since they told about it and its not that big of a ship...

[@stratum42]

I so badly want this ship but I'm mostly a solo player and not sure it's useful that way.

[@1Triton]

STL at it again :)

[@STLYoungblood]

Another one!

[@LordTiberius52]

I don't think the Expanse pilot will be "doing a job" for the prospector pilot. He'll buy the ore off the prospector. END OF DEAL. He refines it then sells it on to a TDD/outpost, or sells it to a cargo trader as a commodity who then sells it at a TDD/outpost. Or a team (miner, refiner, hauler) can set the transactions to "free" and split the final profits

[@STLYoungblood]

I think that’s the logical flow, but we will have to see

[@Gazbeard]

Is no-one worried at all by the constantly stated concern that an Expanse plus (insert number of) Prospector(s) will need permanent combat escorts? To me it is a clear indicator that the "core" focus of SC is wrong. The pirate / ganker / griefer brigade has become too dominant in the game pre-release. Think about it as - how many times do you have to hire a bodyguard to leave your home for a visit to the corner store to buy a carton of milk? That's how it should be in the 'verse - it should be known there are bad actors out there, but the reality (repeat - R E A L I T Y) of running into them should be so small that it may be a once per real time year event, not an almost every time you log in or leave the hangar event. CIG really must address that balance sooner rather than later if they want the non-combat professions to be taken up by the majority of the player base ... otherwise, why bother creating them as anything other than loot pinatas?

[@CitizenNerd]

ship can be faster easy.. first of the workers stand around all day in a T pose or not moving soo easy enough and the station i refine my stuff is atm at 80.106% capacity soooooo

[@N1ghtR1der666]

I think you can guess with a reasonable level of confidence that the first itteration of this game loop will be fairly simplified and completely broken :/

[@jimashby43]

I will never buy another concept ship again. 😮

[@STLYoungblood]

What ship soured you?

[@drksideofthewal]

Oddyssey right?

[@Mr.Constitutionalist427]

You have forgotten all about hiring AI which is confirmed and coming thus you hire AI to be able to play solo and use all your ships

[@hujiaming6151]

Nah, this thing is a bit too small, need to be at least 50 meters long, with at least 3 turrets with 2 mounts of size 4 repeaters.

[@tomcat3070]

you know its Alpha right all your questions are mute until Beta and they stream line everything. everything will change thats a given in a Alpha