Stockdale Family Murders | Did Obsessive-Compulsive Trait Lead to Murder?

[@aquinna]

That's what my mom did. She told me she had kids so she could have friends that would never leave her. She tried to keep us from making friends and being independent by telling us how scary and awful the world was. I still have to fight those feelings of anxiety. I can make myself do things I'm scared to do for my kids' sake, though. I couldn't live with the guilt of letting my fears keep them from living the best lives they can.

[@GatheringBitByBit]

Many parents are like that. I enjoyed my time with my sons in their world as boys. They grew up get married have babies of their own and I enjoy my time with my grandson as grandma and the time my sons can give freely. I pray 🙏 for their happiness, success and relationship with Jesus Christ only to grow. It’s a shame people have kids to make children their carbon copies.

[@iciajay6891]

@@alpha1solace I broke the cycle in my family. By not having kids and going to therapy.

[@lizb4156]

@Millicient Aspinet Obsessive Compulsive Personality is totally different from OCD.

[@conorfitzmaurice8959]

Well done, your family are lucky to have you and your foresight.

[@SoullessGinger1313]

@@iciajay6891 me too.

[@timothywenzel5020]

What role did the father play in all this? She certainly would need him to be agreeable or at least passive. I feel like he deserves a bit of blame here as well.

[@elsajones6325]

He was a victim too

[@elsajones6325]

@@HanaRose22 she may have practiced her control methods on the husband first, before all the babies were born

[@SKY-wt2pp]

Speculation, not so much blame

[@Zmiana_Pogody]

Exactly! Where was their father? How the family can be analyzed without husband/father figure AT ALL??? I'm very disappointed on that analysis 🥺 It's like blaming her for everything in the house full of grown men 🤦‍♀️

[@TweedleDeem]

@@Zmiana_Pogody ... are you kidding me? grown men who were abused their whole life by their own mother.

[@ChristinePerez903]

Katherine sounded like a cult leader, she wanted her kids lives to be center around her. Those poor boys Great video Dr Grande!!!

[@coweatsman]

She kept herself sane by passing her madness on to her sons like a hot potato. Some people retain their sanity by projecting it on to others. Cult leaders have complex motivations, many of which are unconscious even to the cult leader.

[@AbbyL0VE]

This is just extremely common in fundamentalist Christian homeschool communities. I grew up like this, and i know thousands of others that did as well, and let me tell you, we are not well adjusted adults. It is a constant struggle.

[@SinisterScoundrel6562]

@@AbbyL0VE Glad I never had parents like that. Would've disowned them years ago!

[@rachelcunningham2498]

reminds me of the Plath family, exactly

[@kingfarouk3468]

She reminds me of Kim on Plath family show. I want Dr Grande to do an analysis of her/them. Horrible family.

[@Neillan]

*Abuse isn't always overt.* Helicopter parents like Katherine don't raise kids, they hinder them for their own whims.

[@lisab6547]

Yep I know a helicopter mom. We had a completely different approach to raising our kids. Our kids are all in their 20s now. She doesn't have good relationships with her kids and they are both messed up. I'm not saying my kids are perfect but we have a great relationship with them and they are happy and good people.

[@kimberleigh8345]

I like your take on it

[@M123Xoxo]

She was more than a helicopter parent, she was also a religious nutcase. Dr. Grande didn't touch on it much in this video, but if you research the case she was a fundamentalist evangelical.

[@Panwere36]

Well said.

[@FlaNative3]

This is definitely an extreme case. My childhood was full of unsafe experiences and family problems. When I became a parent, it definitely affected my parenting, making me a bit protective, although I never stopped my daughter from doing things with friends or at school. I was lucky that her friends really didn't get into much trouble at all. In middle school, she suffered the usual unpleasantness, but at least she had a group of supportive friends too. Then most of them joined the marching band in high school. She was too busy doing all that to find any real trouble, although she really is just not that type anyway - she is naturally risk averse, as am I. My friends have commented on what a great kid she is so I am lucky. She has had her share of problems, that's just life!

[@marshdweller01]

Her agreeing to be on the wife swap show would seem to run totally counter to her "beliefs." That deserves an analysis of its own. Maybe she wanted to proselytize a whole other family.

[@elsajones6325]

_$$$$$$......and a chance to show her "perfect" family

[@sparrowhawkerdesigns]

@@elsajones6325 my thoughts exactly.

[@Blaze-qe7yg]

Yeah, what's the point of being the self-proclaimed mother of the year if you can't bask in the light and rub other mothers' noses in it?

[@carolnahigian9518]

The behaviour make me think of the Boo Radly Family in the Book,.... , "To kill a mockingbird"! " She TOO strict.

[@sarah2.017]

I wondered how she found out about "Wife Swap" in the first place, if she didn't watch TV.

[@cottontails9003]

That mother was wrong, on some many levels. Children need to play and interaction with their peers . They should have been allowed to have some fun. Thank you Dr Grande. Great analysis and topic.

[@kingoreo3642]

I keep thinking about how she would have treated a woman one of her sons wanted to marry. The fiancée never would have had a chance.

[@cottontails9003]

@@kingoreo3642 I certainly wouldn't like to be that fiancee.

[@Zmiana_Pogody]

Where was their father? How the family can be analyzed without husband/father figure AT ALL???

[@esteemedmortal5917]

Yes, for children play IS their work. They need that to be a significant part of their lives to develop into healthy human beings. The son is responsible for his actions but as Dr Grande said, she hadn’t prepared him to function as an individual, much less as an adult.

[@rejaneoliveira5019]

So true Julianne, great comment!🙌🏼 It’s such a sad story.😕

[@evelyntokamp1011]

With all due respect, I wonder why you don't mention their father's role in the sad, rotten excuse for an upbringing of those four boys.

[@moomyung9231]

I was wondering how he fit into the situation.

[@annahelander2881]

The husband was in the same situation as the boys. He had no say in anything. He had the same authority in that house as a dish rag.

[@awkwardautistic]

@@annahelander2881 a bit of masculinity would have helped.

[@claireh587]

@@awkwardautistic it doesn't matter what your sex is when you're under an abuser.

[@annahelander2881]

@@awkwardautistic while it is true that he could have stood up to her, it appears she had as much control over him as the boys. During the "Wife Swap" episode, he had issues with the incoming wife because the things she did were not what his wife would have done. For example, during a prayer song before dinner, the dinner (which wasn't ready yet) began to burn and the swapped in wife hurried to take care of it. She was criticized because his wife never would have interrupted their prayer, not even for burning dinner. She would have let it burn. It makes me wonder if their house was on fire, would she interrupt then? Anyway, eventually, he gave in to the changes even though he knew his wife wouldn't like it. Whether he was part of the abuse or being abused, he certainly had no authority in that house. It sounds to me that he was in some way conditioned by his wife. It's a sad situation all around. Very sad.

[@smittykins]

I wonder if Jacob feels “freer” in prison than he did at home.

[@jenniferlane9000]

I've wondered this too. I think he would and that's extremely sad.

[@iciajay6891]

The prison of the mind was worse I imagine.

[@alexisalexi5161]

That's a good question

[@heatherbukowski2102]

reminds me of the manchausen by proxy case with gypsy and how she said she felt more free in prison than she did living with her mother. really shows how hellish some peoples' lives have been.

[@smittykins]

Yeah, I remember her saying that.

[@pezette7717]

Crazy people are one thing, but crazy people with "god" backing them are absolutely terrifying. Those poor children...

[@trace9657]

Agreed

[@bthomson]

How much does irrational fear of sex and over sexuality (too little and too much neither healthy!) invade the thinking of religious zealots? They seem to me to be completely obsessed!

[@sanders555]

@@bthomson Mormons use the term "worldly" as a de factor insult. As if learning about anything outside their tiniest modicum of a social bubble is tantamount to summoning demons.

[@AmbuBadger]

I live in a pretty liberal area-- they've replaced the worship of God with the worship "The Science". Crazy is everywhere.

[@sanders555]

@@AmbuBadger I've never heard of anyone worshipping science. Even Scientologists don't worship science. That's like worshipping history or math. But whatever, free country.

[@shawnnewell4541]

The minute you said she wanted to raise them away from bad influences, I knew this wasn't going to work out. You can't be that regimented with kids.

[@bthomson]

Trying to protect them from life. Only protection is actually death!

[@loisherzog8803]

Where was Dad through all this? His action or inaction has to be an important piece of the puzzle.

[@chesterwilberforce9832]

I'm a long time bluegrass musician, having been in various bands, teaching banjo and guitar. I grew up in Illinois where bluegrass music - at least at the time - was more of a college folk liberal music form. Moving to Texas, heart of the Bible belt in my 20's I gradually saw the shift from this to home school/ultra conservative family gospel bands. The girls all wear denim ankle length dresses and the boys jeans, white shirts, and cowboy hats. To them, the only "wholesome" music is bluegrass, which I find odd since it has its roots in Scots/Irish/English murder ballads brought to the Appalachians in the 19th century.

[@bthomson]

Do not agree with "no sense" comment. What I get is the same as I always get when people believe every word in the Bible is from God! All human endeavor is both wonderful and flawed! No music or book or anything is free from human imprint!

[@Doug_M]

In the south, religion has always been a part of bluegrass/country. The majority of the audience for that music leans conservative....small government, Christian values, self sufficiency, patriotic.

[@sarah2.017]

The great hymn "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" borrowed its melody from an old drinking song.

[@The_Gallowglass]

lol murder ballads?

[@lisacurtis8162]

I understood you. Ty for your comment.

[@leonieromanes7265]

The level of control Katherine exerted over her kids was unbelievable. She did everything to stop her sons from developing their own free agency. Katherine appeared to hate the modern world. But still courted its attention by using her sons to form a band and appear on Wife swap. She seemed to see her kids as an extension of her self, not as people.

[@elsajones6325]

Sick!

[@bthomson]

Have to question whether religious strictness is a symptom or a cause?

[@girlwhomustnotbenamed4139]

@@bthomson It's both. That's how the cycle of violence works and religions have been perpetuating it since their inception.

[@coweatsman]

@@bthomson I'd say a symptom. Lots of people are religious but they do not manifest their shadows so tragically or rather fail integrate their shadow aspect into their personalities in a healthy fashion. People who identify and fear evil are fearing their own shadow.

[@lisab6547]

My mom has always felt that what my sister and I do is a direct reflection on her. When we were kids she made sure we always looked our very best when going somewhere. Once we were going to the Ice Capades (like Disney on Ice) Mom had bought us dressed to wear. That day my sister, who was about 6 yr old, drew smiley faces on her knees with permanent marker. My mom threw a fit!! She tried everything to get the marker off my sister's knees. She finally got some very abrasive powdered soap that my dad used to wash his hands (he worked construction) and scrubbed my sister's knees with it. Mind you she was 6 yrs old so her skin was still sensitive. But the marker came off. I look back on things like that and little things that kids do would set my mom into a frenzy cuz she thought it would make her look bad rather than just accepting that we were just being kids.

[@m.f.richardson1602]

With all of Katherine's rules, it's amazing she ever "did it" at least four times. Very interesting. Your analysis is spot on. Thank you💕🇺🇲

[@abyzmul]

Only four times. She was forced by an evil man & she didn't enjoy it.

[@hallievanoutryve3109]

😆😂😂😂

[@evelyntokamp1011]

Her husband's role is not mentioned in this video - perhaps he was kept in the fields and only allowed to pass sperm through a straw, four times, during a break from hard labour?

[@m.f.richardson1602]

@@evelyntokamp1011 Love your humor. I see Dr. Grande is a good teacher💕🇺🇲

[@m.f.richardson1602]

@@abyzmul Come on. Where did the come from????

[@kimberlykay1614]

Sounds like Katherine shouldn’t have children. She should just have pets that she can train to do tricks for her.

[@leonieromanes7265]

Agreed, poor kids.

[@evelyntokamp1011]

Sounds like her husband shouldn' t have had kids either, ever.

[@kina18]

Or a doll collection. She would abuse pets when the pets made a mistake or resisted her.

[@shhhperry9852]

Yep…. She was clearly a CRAZY cat lady, who just so happened to have a family, which is extremely rare with people like this.

[@RealmCenter40]

I am absolutely shocked Grande didn’t roll the sales pitch for his book into this video when the opportunity was presented on a silver platter.

[@piperjaycie]

I doubt their mother would have even entertained the idea that any of her children could have any mental illness even if they did show any signs or symptoms. She might have considered it a punishment from god or something similar. She may have thought seeking help for mental issues reflected badly on her as a mother when clearly she thought she was doing a great job keeping them so restricted. She probably would have just added to their chores and responsibilities as a way to ‘fix’ any problems or potential problems. Just some thoughts, I grew up with a very overly religious mother.

[@jancormeau13]

Dreadful mother!!! We had a neighbor like this.

[@coweatsman]

If only the mother had read Jung she may have recognised the conflicting parts of her self and started on the path of individuation. In a way she may have kept herself sane by passing on her dysfunctions to her sons, like a hot potato so the "evil" in the world is "out there" and not within. She needed her sons to be dysfunctional or else she would have been deafened by the noise inside her head.

[@moneybags999]

He might not have even had mental illness. He probably snapped after all the pressure being forced to straddle 2 worlds for so long. The conundrum of "being of the world but not in the world."

[@giaparmer]

Not to be dark or anything but this is exactly how my dad was, obsessively controlling, total isolation, and extremely abusive. I seriously thought for several years that my brother was gonna kill him and as a young teen *actually* was kind of mentally prepared for it, you can’t understand the depth of that “trapped” feeling until you’re in it, it’s not as simple as leaving the house and getting your own place. From birth you are taught that you are *incapable* of caring for yourself and that level of dependence strips of you of proper mental development, you go to some unbelievable places.

[@holyishe7903]

How r you feeling these days about it

[@SandyRiverBlue]

There are videos of them performing and he looked markedly uncomfortable at being videotaped. Every time the camera swept to him he'd get a look on his face that seemed to say, "I wonder what other people think of this". Kids who are raised in heavily regimented environments just want an average life. This was true for me and my siblings at least. Passion and work ethic need to be nurtured they cannot be uploaded by force. When you try to control a person's autonomy and personality they will buck, and eventually, they will realize that the only way to become self-actualized is to eliminate your control over them in some way or to leave.

[@coweatsman]

People, even children, need downtime, unstructured idle time for mulling over and thinking randomly. It's only a problem when that dominates one's life. Much good can come from such moments, questions, wonder, thoughts and becoming comfortable in your own space, getting to know oneself. The greatest thinkers in history all spent valuable time by themselves, even going into the wilderness as with many religious founders like Jesus and the Buddha. Einstein and Oppenheimer both enjoyed solitude and good work came out of that. That mother deprived her sons of those treasured moments.

[@holyishe7903]

Wait I’m confused how she deprived her sons of time alone .... is it because they were busy all day?

[@SandyRiverBlue]

@@holyishe7903 Disingenuous question #1.

[@rullmourn1142]

Charles and Calvin seem to be well adjusted by their Facebook pages, Calvin is married with a history degree and old photos from college he posted publicly looks like he had fun and moved away from the craziness. It's very sad, Jacob and James should have already moved out, but clearly there was something going on. I can't imagine growing up with such control over every moment of life.

[@bthomson]

Probably some scars? Some people are just more resilient or grounded! The insecure or dependent ones suffer the most!

[@elizabethwillis885]

Hilldale College is very religious and strict. They probably did well in a highly structured religious school because they were used to it at home.

[@drebk]

I guess someone had to help run the farm? When you've been paying your ranchhands with fake tokens all your life, you probably don't want to hire real workers at real wages

[@holyishe7903]

Thomson you are right on that one

[@Blech-h9z]

Have we not figured out that Facebook does not paint an accurate picture of family life? The Watts family looked happy on Facebook.

[@TJDious]

"She thought this would bond the family together." She should have tried super glue. Might have been less damaging.

[@MrEd9574]

I have a sister in law who did the same to her 4 chilldren. they didn't get out of the house till their late thirties and only started dating in their 40's... she crippled those obedient kids under the threat of God! it's so sad to watch up close...now they avoid her like the plague!!

[@holyishe7903]

So so sad.... it’s just damaging... kids need peer socialization at the early age of one to two years old

[@zenseed75]

Those are the kids that go wild when finally free. What a horrible way to grow up.

[@elsajones6325]

And end up making worse mistakes than what their parents feared

[@bthomson]

Exactly!💯

[@dpguinee]

Yes, I know a family like this in Michigan. Their kids were raised in a Catholic cult where they were homeschooled, not allowed to watch TV/use the internet, etc. when their oldest son went to a (Catholic) college, he started smoking weed. The mom found out and called my mom sobbing one day to report this travesty. My mom basically just thought, well it was bound to happen.

[@kati-ana]

These poor kids were in a prison from birth.The woman was unfit to have such a privilege of being a mother.

[@bthomson]

In a farming community (this is not news) having children is not considered a "sacred" activity but rather a breeding necessity!

[@jpc3603]

🌟Thank you for this analysis, I especially appreciated the end where you explained what underpinned her motivations: fear, (possible) OC traits and a deep need to be liked/adhered to. Her husband should not have allowed this to go unchallenged for so many years. Familial control on this level is surely unhealthy for everyone involved 🌟

[@elsajones6325]

He would have been one of the controlled

[@jpc3603]

Hmm yes you are likely right, to my mind though he needed a backbone for the sake of the children if not himself.

[@sarah2.017]

She may have threatened him if he ever left her - for instance, that she would never see the kids again.

[@diannt9583]

Father almost certainly participated in this harmful behavior, too.

[@sisuguillam5109]

@@elsajones6325 would he? He is an adult though.

[@mollyanderson699]

“I don’t know if the books were trying to escape as well” Dr Grande I love your dry humor

[@DrogoBaggins987]

Reminds me a lot of my mother. We were isolated and home schooled. There were some differences and this lady was very intense but a lot of this story is familiar. We were taught the same things about the outside world. There are a lot of families like this in America.

[@kayzbluegenes]

I homeschooled, as most of the families in our church did; and I appreciated the isolation/protection that living in the country afforded us. But, as our children neared adolescence, we gave them the choice of going to public school - to experience extra curricular activities like sports, prom, science competitions, etc. When they were old enough to drive, they had access to a car so they could socialize and not be 'stuck' out in the boonies!

[@lynnrn8252]

@@kayzbluegenes I think it's wonderful to be able to home school and live in a protective setting but you did things that allowed your kids to also feel apart of society. That's a good and normal way to balance home schooling with also being part of society. You also didn't work your kids to the bone, shame them for watching TV, and keep them totally isolated from society, except for activities that you deem OK like playing blue grass music. These boys were kept in a prison dictated by their parents and were controlled by using the fear of God. It's a shame no one saw the signs in Jacob because they were so isolated, three lives lost, and so many more ruined!

[@andriaknobel5241]

I’ve never heard of this case, very sad. Almost reminds me of the control that the Turpin family had over their children. Different circumstances with different outcomes but similar in some ways.

[@thereal4113]

I immediately thought of the Turpin family when I heard this analysis. It sounds like both sets of children were living living in a prison.

[@Robert08010]

"I never heard of this case." Possibly because the mother was not around to promote it.

[@piperjaycie]

This sort of reminds me of the Turpin children. I know you did a video on the parents but would you ever do one based on the children’s story and trauma. I recently found out that the 17 year old Jordan was one of the younger children with maybe 8th or 9th in the birth order. I struggle with the idea that so many of the children were in their 20’s but it took the 17 year old to finally do something and call the police. They must have been so traumatised and worn down and scared.

[@bthomson]

Half starved and uneducated and scared of the outside world! Disgusting!

[@55shocked55]

I agree and the only reason the one who caked 911 did was because she had a cell phone her older brother was given and she would sneak around and watch KZbin she realized there is nothing normal about this life. They (2 of the girls) did a 2020 interview just a couple mo ago

[@thejudgmentalcat]

We had several families like this in our community...and we were pretty isolated on our farm. Ah, the 70's

[@nd612]

The 70's were great but that up bringing is strange. These people created a band in 2006 with all these stupid rules and restrictions. That is frowned upon in my eyes. My orders were strict but not to jeep us from outside influences that do exist and be string enough to make the right decisions. I don't like this families over board life style. There are evil, controlling ways of this kind of mother that really are the thing to push this kind of order onto her family especially those sons can grow to hate women.

[@nd612]

@Millicient Aspinet That sucks. I hope you've healed from that abuse. Because that's what was behind these controllers in your life were really sinister ways of them.

[@nd612]

@Millicient Aspinet I don't blame you

[@RaysDad]

Growing up I knew a family that was similar to the Stockdales. They attended church a lot, were vegan and home schooled, and their mom made all their clothes. The clothes were very nice. Their mom wouldn't allow between-meal snacks, so sometimes they would come over to our house ravenously hungry and my mom would make them a sandwich or something. The kids were very nice, and the family seemed generally happy.

[@cynthia1974]

My family was some what like this. The constant guilt and shame of wanted something different. I feel for that guy.

[@moneybags999]

I find it amazing that so many people are chiming in saying their families were like this. And people wonder why America is so messed up?! THIS IS WHY!!! Being that I didn't grow up like this, I'm actually quite surprised how common this type of upbringing appears to be. Our backward-thinking politicians are taking people back to their childhoods. It must be strangely comforting to them.

[@piperhurtado4945]

I guess “OCD traits” consist of behaviors consistent with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. I suffer from Obsessive Compulsive Disorder; this woman was an unintelligent narcissist, point blank.

[@iciajay6891]

There was almost likely narsasism at play. As her need to control so tightly.

[@notanexpert2978]

Narcissists can have ocd. Ocd can be represented in different ways.

[@kenbow7527]

Did he say OCD or OCPD? I think he was referring to the personality disorder OCPD.

[@piperhurtado4945]

@@kenbow7527 he actually said “obsessive compulsive personality traits.” If he meant “disorder”, it didn’t come across that way.

[@kenbow7527]

Good point.

[@irishis3]

How did the sons know about Wife Swap if they never watched tv? What happened to Katherine in the other family? How long after the show was the shooting? That sounds pretty triggering all around.

[@berdiesbrew4284]

Ironically there is a woman that has a KZbin channel that was the wife that swapped with this family called Molly Golightly (I believe she went by big juicy previously) her channel is drama. She is of course opposite personality of Katherine, but said they were a nice family and she was surprised Jacob did this.

[@Cold_Ethyl]

The sons were on the show.

[@teresafarrell6457]

I love how the entire blame was placed on the mother for having strict (as hell) guidelines and rules and never bringing up anything else that could have contributed. The older sons left home to continue on leading productive, happy and well-rounded lives. This man was well into his 20's but the goal out the gate seemed to be mocking a parent for not allowing their children to watch TV or play video games. 👎

[@dante6985]

@@teresafarrell6457 I appreciate your comment after watching several KZbin documentaries on this crime and hearing Dr. Grande's analysis. It's like, yes, this was a very strict, very unconventional parenting style, but it's all conjecture how much of that contributed to the crime. We really have no idea what happened.

[@worri8926]

Wife Swap contacted the family after finding their website for the Stockton Family Band, and after a lot of deliberation they decided to go on the show for the $20,000 paycheck. In the Tonkovic family, Katherine criticized their ungodly tendencies, such as engaging in pre-marital sex and smoking. The shooting happened in June 2017, around 9 years after the episode's initial air date. More specifics are in EIleen Ormsby's book, _Small Town, Dark Secrets_ .

[@SandyRiverBlue]

Irony. The commercial attached to the beginning of this starts with, "I've been obsessed with belts for a long time..." and I'm like, "Don't do it!!!"

[@clipp7777]

🤣😂😁

[@muffinstuffin3303]

Are you getting fiddle ads?

[@RealmCenter40]

I have to skip the commercials as soon as the option is available. I have not seen a commercial that isn’t either painfully whiney or gushingly sappy in probably two decades. Im not even sure what any of them are trying to sell.

[@SandyRiverBlue]

Same. My god the decisions you need to make when you're doing dishes and watching KZbin at the same time. Do you get soap and water all over your device or listen to a 19 year old liar tell you how they "struck it rich" using their "system" for the next 10 minutes...I can always buy a new device, but the cancer that is their personality I can never get out of my head.

[@gailflora1835]

How awful! My mom pretty much gave me my freedom and I did the same with my son. Gotta let a person experience things! That’s how we learn who we are, as well as the world around us.

[@matissetrixie7796]

I guffawed loudly at the title of this video, letting my inner hillbilly out. -So many parents are profoundly cruel. Thank you Dr. Grande, for bringing this to light. I’m really enjoying your patreon channel as well!

[@bthomson]

Maybe not "cruel" but certainly fearful and deluded!

[@matissetrixie7796]

@@bthomson yes, she was fearful.

[@jaelzion]

I was forbidden from using expletives as a child too. I better NOT let out a curse word in hearing of either of my parents, LOL. It wasn't even a discussion.

[@alashiadiggs6006]

Before I saw the end, all I was thinking of was Josh Duggar and there strict rules. It makes me sad to think when your this overbearing as a parent you end up with a Josh Duggar or dead!

[@Cordoba82]

One quick question Dr. Grande, what about the father? Did he played any role in his sons lives, or was he another victim of this woman? Well, yes, I asked more than one question, but I'm quite curious.

[@nicklager1666]

Im shocked that a family with such a rigid and strict lifestyle would consider something like a swap TV show. Based on the photos i first thought the family were of amish or menonite faith due to the hat and old fashoned clothing.

[@elsajones6325]

Skewed and sadistic. No love, just ownership

[@bgm3460]

Could you analyze the case of Christine Papin and Léa Papin? two French sisters that lived in the beginning of XX century, they had a brutal child with an insensitive care, both were handmaids in a house and one day they kill the mother and the daughter for their work, they kit out the eyes alive, founded sleep together like babies. They said do it because not treat them well. The psychologists of this times believed they had a lesbian/endogamic relationship that begin because they don't have anyone else, one survived and live with her mother and was very obedient.

[@nightwood4379]

Fascinating case…deeply disturbing.

[@monikamanesh]

"all work and no play made Jacob a dull boy!" His mind was dulled! Can you imagine how this 25-year old man/boy felt when he finally participated on that wife swap show? Like an extremely sheltered boy who was not yet allowed to experience life on his own, for fear he would become evil as society was. I'm sure he realized he was lied to, in a sense. Thanks, Dr. Grande, for your obvious talent, your unique gift, and for sharing it with us

[@tessalimits8893]

I already knew this but wow how lucky was I to have my imperfect but loving parents. Expecting perfection is just insane.

[@zippermonster9596]

This is literally what it has been like with my x for 17 years. Having to be productive to be loved. I’m exhausted.

[@maureeningleston1501]

Jacob will have more freedom in prison, and he will probably develop the social skills that he was deprived of.

[@biancaxsmith]

Man that’s so true and sad.

[@robswystun2766]

Potentially interesting case alert!!! A few years ago, a young girl from a tiny village in Manitoba (Easterville, I think) catfished an NBA player (don't remember his name, but his nickname was The Birdman) and a model by pretending to be each person while communicating with the other one. I don't think she was doing it for monetary gain. If I remember correctly, I think she was doing it for the hell of it. Just thought it might be a good one to analyze.

[@kh-oi9ul]

i remember that! chris andersen was his name. that was a crazy story

[@bthomson]

Always think that there must be an element of wanting to believe when scams work!🤔

[@tallblonde1976]

Rob I remember that! Its almost unbelievable that happened. A young girl cat fished both adults.

[@eek1759]

Hyper control of other human beings whose very nature is to seek freedom and experience can only lead in one direction. I'm not suggesting everyone growing up in this way will kill, but there will certainly be serious mental health issues down the road. Where was dad? Where and how are the older boys now?

[@fayzah]

the way the mother was raising her children sounded so familiar and then when you said Wife Swap i realized that’s how i knew of them. i had no idea the parents were murdered, but i’m not too surprised one of the kid’s ended up like this with the way they were treated. thank you for this analysis !

[@krisl6661]

Never had a chance to be children- saddest words ever spoken

[@burprobrox9134]

Sometimes a person deserves what they got. I don’t know what she went through but she abused those kids and Jake had it. Imagine seeing the things you missed, being rejected by girls (or guys), and having no ability to relate to anyone and then you can see who is the cause of that torment. Plus how is the criticism and mental abuse not considered in the case. Seriously sad he got thrown in jail instead of help.

[@moneybags999]

The mother was clearly a control freak but did she "deserve" to die? This is not a case of self-defense. His life was not in danger. Just because he had "had it" doesn't mean she deserved to be shot & it also doesn't justify him shooting his brother to "save him" from her. He was an ADULT & could have moved out like his other siblings did. He could have asked them for help if he didn't know how to get out. "Plus how is the criticism and mental abuse not considered in the case. " For the same reason a woman who has been abused by her husband cannot claim self-defense if she murders him while he's not in the process of abusing her, eg: while he's sleeping, eating, watching tv, etc...In this case, being overly restrictive is NOT justification for murder. "Imagine seeing the things you missed, being rejected by girls (or guys), and having no ability to relate to anyone and then you can see who is the cause of that torment." This scarily sounds like the thought process of an incel. A lot of them see women as the cause of their torment & feel justified in killing them. Do you feel that the killing of people who you feel are the cause of your torment is justified? Is that worth spending the rest of your life in prison? That's what therapy is for. At 25 he was still young enough to live life & experience the things he missed out on. There are plenty of late-bloomers enjoying life. There are plenty of people who have had abusive childhoods & are thriving. Life is not a Hollywood movie where the characters you hate deserve to be killed off just because they make you mad. There are real consequences.

[@crystalb4178]

Unfortunately a prison sentence instead of professional help was inevitable because he also murdered his brother who was just as much a victim of her abusive parenting as he was.

[@flowerfield3468]

That’s incredibly disgusting. Murder is still wrong.

[@piperjaycie]

I’m honestly not surprised that one of those boys finally did something like this. I wonder why his brother was targeted as well though. And if he targeted one of his brother why not the rest of them and the father too. Was it the injured brother that called the police? And when the brother with the gun realised the police were there he then shot himself? Was he planning on lying in wait for everybody else to come home? Or was it the brother with the gun calling 911?

[@davel7014]

I wondered the same things. My guess would be that it was the brother who tried calling 911 in an attempt to stop him from killing the mother. He shot him to stop him, killed the mother, then tried to kill himself. But yes, where was the dad when all this happened?

[@nondisclosure3920]

@@davel7014 the elder of the 2 killed the mother, then his brother. He probably called 911 before he shot himself, he pled guilty and wouldn't respond to the psychiatrist assessing him or the judge. I don't think he had the language or self awareness to explain what he was feeling and why he did what he did.

[@lanceanthony198]

I watch all of Dr Grande’s videos with a glad heart

[@donnamathoslah8183]

Thank you, Dr. Grande. You present such interesting topics. I never heard of the Stockdale family until this video. You are so informed and thoughtful in your presentations. I always learn something new. 😊

[@markriley5784]

Jacob was sentenced to 15 years for each murder, and the loss of three tokens. He would have lost more tokens save for the fact that he committed the murders with a glad heart.

[@AlyxCoe]

Usually the enemy isn't "without" but *within* (the family) in these situations . I don't think the kid was necessarily "clinically sane". How could any of them not be broken and twisted inside from this abuse? Happy holidays Dr G!!! Thanks for your work.

[@mlugin8050]

True. Always when i joined a workolace where the employee said „we are like family here“ it sent a shiver down my spine, but not in a wholesome way.

[@MittenKitten2501]

Nothing better than dry humor given with a deadpan face! 💚 gets me every time.

[@MakerInMotion]

The conundrum of parenting. Being too strict and being too permissive both end in disaster.

[@seltzertime2809]

The cacti with little hats are so cute! 😍

[@belindabellach1531]

The idea of this family being on Wife Swap is just too unreal. It’s so sad the judge didn’t recognize how his unfortunate upbringing played a tremendous part in his actions when sentencing him. In his case it seemed he was at a breaking point when he committed the act and should have been a candidate for rehabilitation rather then his ultimate punishment.

[@JP-wx6uh]

Hahaha... Dr. Grande.. This video title is hysterical!! I literally fell out of my chair when I read the title and looked at the image of Jacob (I'm familiar with this case). Best title you've ever had! 🤣

[@baflabies]

Damn it must be mentally draining, Researching all this awful stuff.

[@sutrasofdelight]

This is just so incredibly sad. I know people raised like this.

[@rdhawk929]

Hey Dr. Grande. Not sure if you have previously covered this true crime case, but I would like to hear your take on Joel Steinberg/Heda Nussbaum. It was horrific so I can understand if you would rather not discuss it. As always, I respect your opinion and love your dry humor 😹

[@meebrbey]

I think I remember a Law and Order episode that was based on that case

[@elliebellie7816]

I remember when horrible person thing happened. I still think about it every now and then.

[@notsogreen]

Let's not go there. It's too depressing and dark. Was allover the news and newspapers for way too long.

[@meebrbey]

@@notsogreen Yeah, lets not choose cases that might upset Marie!

[@mistrjt9213]

As a mother of 5 sons, she wouldn't have to work a day once they start hitting 18 and taking care of mama. Instead, she was a crazy psycho.

[@Blaze-qe7yg]

So why was the outcome so different for the Angulo Brothers (The Wolfpack), who were locked away in an NYC apartment for 14 years? They grew up to be the sweetest, kindest, most gentle men you would ever want to meet. I really hope Dr. Grande does a video on their case...It's so fascinating. There's even a documentary about the family.

[@benjaminwakefield9509]

Because people are different.

[@beece16]

As the previous reply said people are different. A small thing for you might break someone else mentally. A perfect example is recent school shootings. Millions of kids go through alot worse than those shooters yet non commit acts of violence. Yet those that did may have broke for a reason you or I may simply brush off.

[@wolfbones666]

Rampant crime in the area frightened their father into keeping them locked in the safety of the apartment. So while it was from a place of paranoia, he kept his sons locked up out of love. Also, he didn't want them to be bored, so they were always watching movies.

[@fo6674]

I think what really helped the Angulo brothers is that they were allowed to watch as many Hollywood movies as they wanted and that helped them create an escape from their ordeal. Also their mom was very supportive and loving which helped a lot. Not to mention the countless hours they had to have fun and recreate their favorite movies and dress up. Still they missed out on a lot of life experiences but made the best of it.

[@221BBakerStreet]

So Jacob spends the first 25 yrs of his life cut off from the outside world, prevented from doing anything without his parents permission, forced to work like a slave and has to "earn" happiness. Then when he finally snaps because he couldn't take the misery of his day to day life anymore, his punishment is to get locked up in prison for 30 yrs. So he's essentially gone from one prison straight into another one. That's justice for ya.

[@TJDious]

I'm suspicious of any family that has a family motto.

[@lynnrn8252]

The women who did the wife swap episode and stayed with the Stockard family stated in an interview, she knew right away in her heart that it was Jacob who shot his family. It's sad how she sensed the issues brewing inside of him after only staying with their family for one week. She was also crying while she was on the show, stating she wished she could bring the boys home with her. It's so sad they were controlled the point of a child crying over watching TV and stating his parents said he will burn in hell for such normal behavior. How can you function normally in society with such anxiety over doing absolutely normal activities? It's so tragic and of course it was wrong what Jacob did, but you also feel bad for him being pushed to that point, killing your mother, brother, and attempting suicide. He actually wanted to die instead of continuing to live in such a depressive and controlling environment.

[@Thechangelingpnw]

I knew a family much like this. Some differences would be they didn’t have a band, and they weren’t on Wife-Swap. They had four boys and one girl, “homeschooled”, worked a farm, and one boy killed his brother when they were in their late teens. They did not learn to read, at least not well, due to their parents not wanting them to read anything bad. They were some sect of Seventh Day Adventist, vegetarian, and only dressed in conservative, farm-style clothing.

[@bthomson]

Maybe before so much technology the world could be kept at bay but not now!

[@Thechangelingpnw]

@@bthomson This was primarily pre-technology, but this particular family still failed.

[@billhildebrand5053]

Comment 737...hey I bought liver yesterday..... I am watching the *-Stockdale Family Band montage-*, while watching this, and it strikes remarkably close to home, as somehow the environment I grew up was also tightly controlled, and where the concept of free will was denied in essence in the service of a greater cause, religious. It is remarkably easy to see how keeping rules would lead to satisfaction, but once in its clutches, one becomes institutionalizd. Thankyou Dr. Grande, such a worthwhile analysis. ❤️❤️❤️

[@Maria-sg4zy]

My heart goes out to Jacob. I wish his Attorny could have done more for him.

[@moneybags999]

What more could he have done? He didn't kill her in self-defense.

[@crystalb4178]

There is nothing more this attorney could have done for him. He committed multiple murder, no way he was going to get a light sentence.

[@pequadcob2009]

Small correction: The sons were not sent to another family, but rather the moms were... Thus the name "Wife Swap".

[@4wrds993]

Cant wait for a situation like this to happen, Dr Grande would speculate the shit outta it.

[@tarantellalarouge7632]

homeschooling parents need to be supervised, there is a big red flag here ....

[@haltersweb]

The digestive enzyme supplements sounds weird, but chicken hearts, gizzards, liver, sardines are all good eating. I’m Sicilian and these are commonly used in traditional Sicilian cuisine.

[@nachtegaelw5389]

They are in US cuisine too, at least for people who live on farms & in the rural US!

[@micheleparker8123]

Me too; chicken gizzards are the bomb! Churches's Chicken still serves them in Chicago!!🐓🐔

[@robertafierro5592]

Katherine was RIGID. When people are AFRAID of doing something differently or trying something new, usually an idea, it means one thing. That behavior is FEAR BASED. I know a lot about this because my abusive mother was like that.

[@renee1961]

This is very Sad. Kids need to be kids. What was the father doing? She had Alot going on, didn't she?

[@crazymimi6061]

Every mother wants to protect their children and raise them with good character. But this woman went off the rails. These boys didn't seem to have much of a chance. But only 1 committed murder. He could have left, like his older brothers.

[@atcintorrino]

Every mother does not necessarily want to protect their children. Some only want what is best for themselves.

[@leeoreilly6797]

You just know this is going to be a great analysis.

[@evelyntokamp1011]

Flattery will get you anywhere ;) as a saying goes.

[@Maisygirl1974]

“I don’t know if the books were trying to escape as well.” I freaking died at this. 😂😂😂

[@Throatzillaaa]

it's just sad that nothing was done to help any of the kids on Wife Swap even though, often, their lives of abuse were being aired for the world to see. I specifically remember seeing an episode where the parents were overly strict and controlling about their teenage son's wrestling (I think?) career. The importance they put on him staying in a specific weight class was very abusive. They had padlocks put on any pantry doors and the fridge. Also, before school, the son was made to go running, still dark outside because it was so early. The father would drive behind him, making sure he did the distance he was assigned to do and kept up his pace. Wife Swap (and a lot of other shows on TLC) always seemed to get away with exploiting families and especially children. I don't understand how that show could exist and make money off showing (often) abusive families. The made it so the show was only entertaining to its viewers if they put two completely opposite families on an episode. An episode swapping the wife/mom of two relatively normal, healthy families wouldn't really have gotten the views that TLC wanted. Any episode I ever watched or just saw advertised, it was obvious how careful they were to pick opposite families: a overly strict christian family swapping with a family who practiced witchcraft and allowed their children to go shoeless everywhere, a family with parents who were both personal trainers and raising their children to be world renowned athletes swapping with overweight parents that didn't push their children into playing sports, and instead allowed them to entertain themselves after school with snacks and video games til midnight. I think I just assumed it was always pretty fake and scripted, but I suppose this family sort of proves that Wife Swap did genuinely how these people lived (although the show can still be scripted, in a sense.)

[@joemurphy710]

Omg! I’ve never seen a situation when excessive control turned out well…

[@leenygal9856]

A tragic case, but chuckled about the food. Growing up with a Filipino mom, we are sardines and "gizzards" (cow stomach, intestines, bone marrow) all the time. Pretty common in non-Western cultures.

[@micheleparker8123]

LOVE sardines and gizzards!!!

[@DHTZ8999]

'Hee Haw Hell', hilarious video title, tragic story. Dr. Grande, I've been immensely enjoying your psychology informed topic videos.

[@JustJ-Me]

Very interesting video Dr. Grande! Before you even mentioned it I was thinking "Wait. Wasnt this 'no television' family on Wife Swap or is that another similar family I'm thinking of?" Strangely, I remembered them! I didn't know anything about the family outside of the show. What an unhealthy environment 😔

[@shesmoonlight514]

I love how sarcastic Dr. Grande was in this video.

[@popper1772]

Always a pleasure Doc, you have helped my life tremendously! Thank you! I think you are the type of person I might have bonded with in college.

[@bthomson]

You got a heart!

[@popper1772]

@@bthomson I'm lucky!!!

[@ericaedmonds3232]

It's always so weird to me how families like this will audition to be on tv but will not allow their own children to watch tv! So it's okay as long as the parents can profit from it.

[@annap6992]

If this woman thought the world was a dangerous place then why bring children into this world?

[@RockReynolds]

I just got absolutely shocked by this story, a couple hours ago. I couldn't believe when I saw "Stockdale Family" video on KZbin, that it was Jacob's family. I try to pay as little attention to the "News" as possible. I met Jacob Stockdale at fiddle contests in 2011 and 2012. Clean-cut, wholesome, good-lookin' dude, and an excellent fiddle player. Jacob even accompanied me on guitar, at the 2011 Lorain County Fair Fiddle Contest, when I competed in the "Senior Division". Jacob was very friendly to me. Now, hearing about Jacob's family life, I have INCREASED SUSPICION, about what's goin' on, with parents raising their children in ISOLATED AREAS, cut off from all other children. At the same time that Jacob was competing in the 2011/2012 fiddle contests, there was a female fiddle player, about 4 years older than Jacob, who regularly beat Jacob in fiddle contests, but then LOST to Jacob, in the 2012 Ohio State Fiddle championship. All other "regular" fiddlers, considered Jacob's win to be an "upset". Here's the kicker. This female fiddler, who, I understand, no longer plays fiddle (I ain't researching that! I will have NOTHING TO DO with her!), was being raised in almost the EXACT SAME TYPE OF ENVIRONMENT as Jacob. The female fiddler's so-called "Mother", acted more like a "Handler", than a "Mother". Here's the question that occurs to me. How is it, that children raised in ISOLATION by quasi-mothers, end up being such FANTASTIC Musicians??? The female fiddler had a twenty-year VERY CLOSE association, with a 32nd-Degree Freemason, who always accompanied her on guitar. I met the female fiddler's so-called "Best Friend", at the female fiddler's classical music recital, at the University of Indiana. The "Best Friend's" father, who appeared to be very close friends with the female fiddler's so-called "Parents", talked to me, said he worked for the NSA, and that I could call him, "Merle the Spook". In other words, no child friends allowed for female fiddler, but Freemasons and NSA are fine. Jacob's parents has wife-swapping. I gotta ASK the question: "Is there a little MK-ULTRA, trauma-based torture, bein' conducted behind closed doors?" I will not reveal the name of female ex-fiddler. That's my personal testimony. Rock Reynolds (AKA: Roger Reynard)

[@holyishe7903]

Not necessarily. I along with three others In my class were very talented at our instrument and none of us was raised by handlers, just by discipline to learn the instrument

[@RockReynolds]

@@holyishe7903 Hi HOLY-IS-HE! Thanks for the comment. HOLY-IS-HE, I consider “musical talent” to be the most powerful KARMA a man (male or female) can possess. I even foresee “Music” as the future “Salvation” of man. HOLY-IS-HE, I am a big, big, big believer in the existence, and most importantly, the MESSAGE of Jesus; however, I am not “Christian”, or a member of any other organized religion. --- I stopped calling myself “Christian” about 25 years ago. --- What prompted me to STOP calling myself Christian, was that I finally got off my butt, and read the Gospels. --- The Jesus I encountered in the Gospels, was NOT the Jesus I was taught in Church, so I ultimately left the Church, but I remain dedicated to the LESSONS that Jesus taught. HOLY-IS-HE, it’s fantastic that you consider yourself to have not been raised by Handlers, and to have musical talent. --- I envy your talent. --- Despite taking Fiddle lessons from four different instructors (total 19 years), nobody ever taught me the proper way to control a bow on a fiddle. --- Now, at 69-years-old, I have figured out how to control a bow, but my fingers just don’t work like they used to. Story of my life. HOLY-IS-HE, congratulations on having been taught properly how to play whatever instrument you play. --- My experience has been that only the “chosen few” are taught properly; however,… --- …with the advent of Internet, I can now find PROPER teaching instructions online, and I am very optimistic, that “proper musical instruction” is now available to more than just the “chosen few”. That is so cool! --- The Times, They are a-Changin’. “Music” will be the “Salvation” of man. HOLY-IS-HE, Jacob Stockdale was raised in an extremely religious atmosphere, with over-the-top discipline. --- “Discipline” is fantastic. --- “Torture” disguised as “discipline” is not fantastic. --- Good luck to you, HOLY-IS-HE, and more important than “discipline”, make sure that you LOVE the Music. Rock

[@m3rrys0ngstr3ss]

How would you even verify "a glad heart"? If anything, I would think the kids pushing through doing chores even when they're not in the mood is a good skill.

[@elsajones6325]

Only IF she decided it was a "glad heart".....so very sick

[@MissEwe]

The cacti arrangement in this video is congested yet thoughtful

[@kyleshockley1573]

Any amount of overparenting will eventually burn kids out well into adulthood, but while it's happening it's usually paired with unusual lapses on the parent's part that can amount to negligence. Suppose they're just as prone to burning out. Might explain the wife swap show thing.

[@feleciaclemons5074]

Yes!!! I've been waiting on you for this!!!

[@AwkwardSquirrel13]

Hey Dr grande, hope you're doing well, I was wondering if you've considered or looked into making an audiobook version of harm reduction? I struggle immensely with reading books, brain fog hits too hard. But I adore listening to books, I feel like I truly absorb them far better. I would love to "read" your book, but for now I can't. Really want to support you, so I thought I'd bring it up. Much love always, Anna - NZ

[@joshuabruner9676]

1:50 I think your guess about the redundant mind comment is correct. It's like the tv becomes the viewers' new primary mind, obsolescing the mind generated at the time of development in utero. I'm so close to Beach City... odd.

[@lastplayer7048]

I've been waiting for someone to cover this case, I remember seeing their Wife Swap episode and soon after hearing about the murder... It was not a stretch of the imagination for me think that a kid living in the conditions those kids were living in could snap one day. That it did end up happening is unfortunate nonetheless. I could tell the family was well intentioned, though it is tragic that their suffocating "parenting style" eventually lead to their demise.

[@Ali-kb8gr]

Hi Dr Grande! Loving the brown shirt. Hope you and my fellow viewers have a great day 🤗

[@JohnH204]

She sounds like an awful woman, kids need some freedom and being able to relax. Imagine all the guilt and shame these boys were raised with, I hope they are able to recover.

[@bthomson]

At least one is dead! Right?

[@bebespeaks7827]

I remember this episode of wife swap they were on. The mom was so selfish, more concerned about her llamas and mules than the lives of her five sons. When the other mom did a rules change, she signed up the eldest boy for his first job at a local grocery store, might have been a Jewel-Osco or a afood Giant or Aldi’s, and he revealed he never had been to the grocery store before and he didn’t know how to work with other people outside the family farm. It was so sad. Then she set him up on a group date with other teens, he didn’t know how to talk to anyone or do anything right in public, that was even more sad, and yet the dad acted as if the boy was going to burn in hell for ~~dating/talking to a girl~~ interacting with other people outside the family unit, in both circumstances of job and socializing. The switch mom hired a tutor to work with the boys instead of throwing them into public school, actually one of the better choices in terms of wide swap rules change with homeschooled kids --hire a tutor, not push the, into a school environment for one week where they may not be able to keep up with academics (as in, teachers might be in the middle of a unit study that they can’t make time to help a new kid learn to catch up on, so the kid just has to wing it with no context or background info, not a fault of the homeschool parents or the system, but rather just a conflict of interest). And the dad acted as of hiring a tutor was equivalent to a volcano erupting and a tornado sweeping away their home. The youngest boy had no friends bc the parents banned friends, so he resorted to a sweeping broom being his only friend.