Stocked Pistols: Great or Garbage?

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Stocked pistols: they have been around as long as pistols have been around, but are they really all that useful?
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[@ForgottenWeapons]

THIS IS YOUR LAST CHANCE TO WIN! go.getenteredtowin.com/forgottenweapons Deadline to enter is TONIGHT 07/28/23!

[@dillan.mclenaghan]

love your long hair like mine

[@blunderingfool]

​@@dillan.mclenaghanI'm catching up on him. :P

[@brokeandtired]

VP70 was a stocked burst fire pistol (unreliable), and the Beretta 93r too (nice stock on, burst fire horrific stock off).

[@mr.nobody---]

Do a vid on the gflex bianary in a micro Roni 😊😊😊

[@Airforce1Gunny]

application error

[@stevenreckling203]

They're better than pistols that are out of stock.

[@bmaxse]

😄😀👏

[@thisiswhatilike54]

Ya got me. Have my Like

[@thisguy41487]

Indeed.

[@d.b.1176]

Noice

[@spitfiremac]

So.... Flux Defense then 😅

[@geodkyt]

Almost 20 years ago, I was involved in a team that was looking at improving the chances for an ejected pilot by figuring a better survival weapon option. At the time, we were really leaning towards something like a Glock 19 sized gun, with a shoulder stock and a suppressor. The idea being that the pistol could be worn on the survival vest (as sidearm are now), and the suppressor and a polymer frame stock could be strapped along the lower legs. Thus, the pilot would always have all three components on them. (Alternative proposal was a takedown SBR carbine conversion kit for the Glock (or whatever) with a integrally suppressed barrel and rifle type sights on the upper This wasn't so 1LT Flyboy could play Rambo. The idea was, if he needed to take small game or take out one random troop, he could do so without giving away his position to everyone within a mile, and the stock would give him a little bit better hit probability, to give him a chance out to about 50m. I'll note the USAF now uses modified take down M4 type rifles in the seat pack for pretty much the same thing, although I don't believe they issue a suppressor. The primary driver there was to give the pilot the chance to survive uncaptured for just a few more minutes by heading to a hilltop or similar and hold the enemy off at distance, to give the PJs more time to get to him.

[@Kesssuli]

Maybe dumb question but i somehow have imagination those ejections to be pretty violent and most likely cause problems for your back. How likely it is to pilot actually survive on ground from day to week ? Or im totally wrong about that ejection ?

[@NikoMoraKamu]

@@Kesssuli you are right , normally is a super violent moment and hard for the bodies of the pilots , but there have been cases of pilots who have ejected without suffering great damage. I suppose it will depend a lot on each situation.

[@Kesssuli]

@@NikoMoraKamu But overally if options are to stay in flying bomb and most likely explode million pieces when hitting ground i think there is very little to think which is more hazard to your healt. Still good to know how things are prepated while hoping you will be mostly okay after bailing out. Already knew those survival kits at ww2 pilot era and it was fascinating to hear modern take up.

[@wraithwyvern528]

Yeah for once military procurement was smart and just bought Cry Havoc takedown kits from the commercial market instead of spending millions of taxpayer money on developing something that probably won't even work in the end.

[@dark2023-1lovesoni]

I think a cross between the folding stocked Beretta 92SBWS and the suppressed KAC XM9 would have been pretty useful as well. Especially for SERE situations.

[@Skulgar321]

Putting a scope and shoulder stock on the Volcanic is still the most optimistic thing I've seen.

[@tombogan03884]

This is the gun a guy tried killing himself with, his family came home to find him swearing about the lump the ball left on his head.

[@guaporeturns9472]

Definitely 😂

[@ShotGunner5609]

*laughs in 1000 meter mark on Mosin nagant.*

[@V3RTIGO222]

The scopes at the time were very low magnification, pretty sure having 1000m ranging for iron sighted bolt guns is the pinnacle of military overestimation

[@nobody2021]

There was a version of the arisaka type 99 with anti aircraft sights and I think that takes the cake for me

[@ottovonbearsmark8876]

For a solid stretch of firearms history, the average pistol had a higher rate of fire than a long arm. That seems to be where stocked pistols pay off, better stability for close quarters rapid fire. As opposed to the whole “carry like a pistol, shoot like a rifle” concept that never really worked.

[@Ass_of_Amalek]

when german storm troopers used stocked pistols for trench assaults, the alternatives were either stockless pistols, or bolt action rifles, were they not?

[@tombogan03884]

@@Ass_of_Amalek Or an MG-08/15 😆 I'll take the stocked pistol thank you. 😬

[@ottovonbearsmark8876]

@@Ass_of_Amalek exactly. At least until the MP18, and even then they were rare.

[@michaeltempsch5282]

​@@Ass_of_AmalekLate in the war (from July '18), and in limited numbers (apparently ~17k produced during the war, not sure how many of those that reached units) there was the MP18.

[@gluttonousslave]

thank you for your service

[@keithweiss7899]

I remember when the possession of a C96 and shoulder stock was illegal. Then the BATFE decided it was okay. Suddenly all of those sellers who had C96’s without the matching stock, came up with the matching stock for them!🤣

[@AshleyPomeroy]

"We lost them in a boating accident - but all of a sudden they bobbed to the surface"

[@KnightsWithoutATable]

@@AshleyPomeroy Turns out it wasn't in that car that caught fire, but was in grandpa's old steamer trunk.

[@KnightsWithoutATable]

Had dynamite in it. Who knew?

[@boomchacle6717]

@@AshleyPomeroy yeah it's a good thing wood floats right?

[@khamsin5888]

law abiding gun owners- am i right?

[@Chris_FMS_Redfield]

I didn't know there were stocked flintlock pistols. SBR regulations DEFINITELY don't adhere to Bruen's standards. This would be huge in the pistol brace lawsuits.

[@Zombine45]

I think a lot of people confuse something being cool with it being good.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

"Look good doing it" has always been the first rule, probably dating back to Pharaohs... :)

[@TheCouchCommando]

@@ForgottenWeapons I bet chariot was invented to make shooting bow much cooler. "Yes, it has to be gilded, what kind of question is that?"

[@itsapittie]

I agree their niche is very small but I still think they’re cool. Sometimes that’s enough reason to own one. If they weren’t NFA items, I’d have one.

[@genesfel]

@@itsapittie I mean, the coolness factor as the single reason for its existence is enough for many many sports cars, so i dont see why it shouldnt be enough for a stocked pistol :D

[@Getpojke]

@@TheCouchCommando That & "...does it take Glock quivers?" 😆

[@tenchraven]

The problem with a stocked pistol is that people think the stock makes it not a pistol, ballistically speaking. It's still a pistol, just more stable. Because it doesn't magically change that, people think they suck. And in a way, for the bulk of the stock, they do. But it's a tool, an option, that you use when it's the right tool. They have a role- motorcycle cops, a pilot or tanker's bail out gun, that kind of thing. And then you've got the other side of it, the "forbidden fruit" theory. I'd rather have something with better sights where the bolt isn't rocketting back at my eyeball!

[@XtreeM_FaiL]

"If you put a stock on a pistol, it becomes a gun and you can shoot larger calibers." -Biden

[@alecubudulecu]

I’ve shot quite a few stocked pistols with and without optics. I always say “it lets you shoot 50 yards very accurately” Basically it extends your offhand shooting capabilities by about 15 yards.

[@herbderbler1585]

That's very generous of you to assume most people can hit anything with a handgun at 35 yards.

[@alecubudulecu]

@@herbderbler1585 lol. Not hit. Sorry im talking about tight Groups. Reaching the pistol’s ideal MOA of like 6-8” at 100yards. So like 3-4 inches at 50. I totally get people can hit an IPSC sized target at those ranges.

[@flaircraft]

It's pretty ridiculous that a C96 Mauser has tangent sights that adjust all the way out to 2,000 meters.

[@commoncriminal923]

This luger would've been legal in ireland up until 2008, RIP.

[@Saltpork305]

I have a G34 build that has a brace/stock setup and the lessons I learned from that are worth sharing: Fixed red dot, not one on the slide. Forget iron sights. Use a fixed red dot. Seriously. It's a 50-75 yard gun. You're not going to take it further with reasonable accuracy quickly, even with a g34 length barrel. If you can accept these downsides, it's easy to have on a single point sling, it's easy to store in a backpack discreetly(which is my purpose for it) and it absolutely will give you more distance than typical pistol shooting which really is 20 yards and in for almost everyone. It fits the idea of a small PDW, but doesn't fit the idea of a PCC/SMG/Carbine. It's just a bigger pistol. I will outshoot that G34 setup all day every day with better ammo with an m1 carbine with iron sights and that's just the reality. However, an M1 is a lot harder to fit into a north face backpack when I travel.

[@xXMrPocketsXx]

Why would you sling a pistol? Also why would you need a stock to hit with a pistol at 50 yards? If your shoving the gun into a bag anyway then why not use a PPC? Seems to me like you should have questioned your requirements before you chose to force a hand gun to be a carbine.

[@Saltpork305]

@@xXMrPocketsXx 50 yard shots accurately with a pistol is range stuff, not reality. Ideal conditions, not actual use. A braced pistol makes that far more viable and as for why I don't carry a carbine, put your rifle in a normal daily use backpack. Good luck. You will sacrifice a lot to do it. My PDW setup sacrifices nothing and that was the point. I'm just realistic about what it is and what it can do vs a rifle because it's not a rifle. I have an EDC pistol that I can shoot well inside 20 yards and a pdw that let's me reach out further faster within realistic accuracy standards for 50-75 yards without issue. That's its entire purpose and it works well.

[@dieyproductions4403]

I am curious to know how do you think you would feel about MP7 if it was an option or TP9 compared to your current PDW setup?

[@Saltpork305]

@@dieyproductions4403 Brass Facts did a great TP9 video and was realistic about the drawbacks. Still, since mp7's are just not a thing here, I wouldn't mind a setup tp9 at all. It's the same idea honestly. The PM63 RAK & vz61 are historical examples. I have a vz61 as well. It's all PDW fodder.

[@dieyproductions4403]

@@Saltpork305 Before Brass Facts publishing that video, nearly review I saw on KZbin for TP9 trashed it, I thought to myself how can no one get the value in this till Brass Facts video came out, glad that he did it. Hope someone makes an MP7 clone, cause we know that if HK would try to bring it, first it would some horribly disfigured version of it and second would cost a kidney to buy. I really like PM63 RAK!! Shame that none makes a reproduction of that one either, but I mean it is pretty similar to TP9 in functionality. Compared to everything else, PDWs seem to be pretty rare and unknown unfortunately.

[@bennyboogenheimer4553]

One of my favorite memories as a kid, was Dad taking us to 1976 Energy Exposition in Philadelphia. The energy crisis was in high gear, gas had gone from 23 cents, to 86 cents a gallon, CRAZY! So at the Expo, there's Mini RV's, and one was a VW Bug, that could turn a full 360* underneath the towed camper. My Dad asked the guy where he got the ideal for the tow rig and camper combo? He said, he saw a 1918 Artillery Luger, and it all just clicked.

[@gregsmith5695]

A couple of those VW Beetle fifth wheel trailers have been found. There are a few videos of them on KZbin now. There was also a VW Beetle based camper called the Little Bugger.

[@5anjuro]

A stocked pistol is perhaps a mediocre carbine but much better than no rifle at all. It does have its niche as a pilot's survival gun etc specialty applications. Btw, the Soviet "Makarov" (PM) has a hidden stock potential, the grips are removed and there's a socket for a retention screw. Can be easily equipped with a wooden or 3D stock.

[@williammagoffin9324]

That last part sounds a lot like the Crosman 1322 "American Classic" air pistols. Unscrew the handgrips and screw on a shoulder stock. They're so common there is several sources for aftermarket stocks from side folders to mounts for AR style stocks. I have one with the regular Crosman carbine stock but 3D printed rails for a reddot and light. Thought about getting a suppressor for it too since they're unregulated.

[@Teehashee]

I think shooter preference is also a factor particularly when counting how long the concept has existed practically in history. I prefer to shoot a pistol, and when I want a stock, I want it.

[@keenanmcbreen7073]

Yea, the small jump up to an SMG gets you a massive jump in fire power, so having the most iconic stocked pistols be from the era just before widespread SMG use makes sense.

[@frankbrowning328]

I'd argue that the ability to get on longer range targets more quickly & accurately was/is an advantage. Typical hunting rifles & old military rifles (pre AK47, AR's etc.) also had/have less capacity than many pistols are capable of. The Luger with its snail drum became a trench broom. The early carbines like it and the Broomhandle Mauser were used in this way. The newer designs also include AR and AK rifles cut down to pistols and up until recently offered pistol braces that many used as short stocks. These were hugely popular with red dots, scopes, prism optic scopes, etc. The closest many of us can get to the submachinegun is a pistol cal carbine with a short barrel and short stock which is basically a pistol with a stock.

[@egoalter1276]

Stocked pistols are just inefficient smgs. They dont use their length to ha a barrel as long as possible.

[@xray86delta]

When I was young, in the late 70s, a complete artillery Luger rig, like the one offered, was sold at the Tulsa Gun Show for the princely price of $1,500! 😉

[@joecary3586]

I was at a gun auction a couple months ago and they had two artillery Lugers and a C96. The Lugers went for $4k each and the C96 went for $5k.

[@wealthybone2990]

I think it depends on pistol but it also it seems like a thing mostly used during WW1 and maybe even WW2 before SMGs were a main thing but smgs are pretty much a better pistol with a stock and can be automatic. Also I see no point really for a stocked pistol because you want it to be easily concealable and also as an emergency weapon too, also you're not really gonna be shooting far with pistol mostly anyways.

[@alexsawicki]

I think that with today's technology, anyone that's open carrying a full-sized pistol could benefit from having a collapsible stock on their pistol (a sliding stock seems the best?)... As long as the pistol is still fully functional with the stock collapsed. Mostly police officers are what I'm thinking of. Sometimes, cops DO have to shoot at further ranges then a pistol would allow... But, don't have time to get a rifle. Sometimes, cops know they're going into a firefight, but again, don't have time to go get a rifle. Getting a small amount of extra accuracy and slightly extended effective range seems like a worthy tradeoff. It's not like cops are trying to conceal their weapon anyway. They're carrying a pistol because it's easy to holster, not because it's easy to conceal. And, there are holsters that can accommodate extendable/collapsible stocks for pistols.

[@cymond]

"you're not really gonna be shooting far with a pistol mostly anyways." Yes, but you've got the cause and effect backwards. You won't be shooting far because you *can't* shoot very far with a pistol. But we don't get to decide the range where the S hits the fan. We don't get to choose the range where we come under attack. A compact weapon makes sense for when you do not expect to be attacked, but it's also a possibility.

[@wealthybone2990]

@@alexsawicki I guess so but when I meant concealable I meant like with holsters and or a way to have access to your gun easily because I feel with a stock it might be harder especially with a holster but I didn't know they did made holsters for pistols with stocks and idk how that would work.

[@gamerbg294]

I see it being welcome in a situation where someone has a handgun and carries it, but when gets home he does not need to conceal it, therefore, the stock serves as a simpler and cheaper alternative to another weapon, increasing the pratical rate of fire and accuracy at short range

[@wealthybone2990]

@@gamerbg294 I guess you have a point there, I haven't really thought of that.

[@Gabthar]

I’ve always felt a folding carbine would be a better option than a stocked pistol

[@Gabthar]

@@Kinetic.44 you can wear it on your back though

[@lordrevan7569]

@@Kinetic.44 you cant wear a stocked pistol on your belt either lol

[@salvadorsempere1701]

@@lordrevan7569 Scorpion disagree with you

[@jubuttib]

@@lordrevan7569 A lot of the stocks are holsters. Sure you can't wear it fully assembled, but if you have any time to prepare you can put it on.

[@lordrevan7569]

@@salvadorsempere1701 the Skorpion is a submachine gun not a pistol and also you cannot holster the Skorpion either unless you are comfortable holstering it without a magazine inserted or you have the original 10 round mags it came with which are not produced anymore. also the Skorpions wire stock is not a proper stock and does not disperse or stabilize recoil to the same effectiveness as the stocks this video is referring to (rifle/carbine stocks) - stocks that actually do what they are suppose to do and provide a 4th point of contact on the cheek

[@philips.5563]

I think the modem ideas like the Flux chassis have a lot of merit, but it is highly situational.

[@jonnycarcano]

That, and the Recover 20/20.

[@mooslionheart]

Ian’s omission of the U.N.C.L.E. P-38 with birdcage flash hider, silencer, Bushnell Phantom pistol scope and collapsible shoulder stock can only denote his devoting an entire upcoming episode to this iconic arms milestone evolution of the premier LEO of the 20th century

[@828enigma6]

That combination of goodies actually exists, or did. I've a magazine article about it. It was capable of full auto fire. The suppressor, I believe the supressor would have worked but was too small to be really functional. Also, the barrel was baffled to permit blanks to function the firearm, which would preclude real ammo being used.

[@wd4scz579]

The last stocked pistol I can think of that had any "large scale" military issue was the Stechkin in the USSR. A 9x18 select fire child of the Fifties, the Makarov supplanted it. I suspect for all the reasons you mentioned.

[@egomania2792]

Apparently the Spetznas and some pilots found use for them in Syria, with wireframe stocks and suppressors on specially threaded barrels.

[@yrrosimyarin]

I feel like your P320 is getting to be a reasonable take on the concept, but essentially you’re just looking at “a more portable PDW.” It feels so close - there’s got to be a combination of red dot, action, and caliber that would get you hits at 125 yards in something you can put in a hip holster and forget about.

[@itsapittie]

Maybe something in 5.7x28? Most regular pistol bullets lack the ballistic coefficient for long-accuracy but 5.7 might do it.

[@Gnohio]

a laugo alien in 10mm with a -red- green dot and a stock could be legendary 🤔

[@Jansie_NL]

I believe that the War Museum I used to give tours at had a C96 with a wooden plank as a shoulder stock with a leather holster attached to it. The shaped plank seemed thick enough to be able to withstand being banged around a bit.

[@snkn9857]

How about Vz-61 and PM-63 RAK? Yes, they are sub machinegun, but have the size like a pistol. We still have the Stechkin APS. Just like the Luger Artillery was originally designed for artillery but used by Stormtroopers, there is a market for the second line military soldiers, and Special Forces that focus on close combat and stealth, they both need small repeating firearms that are easy to carry. For the second line military soldiers, I think the real issue may be that short barreled rifles/carbines are less logistically and training cost to the military than Stocked Pistols. But there is still a market for Special Forces that requires high firepower concealed carry weapons. (although not big)

[@jubuttib]

IIRC the Vz-61 at least is usually classified as a machine pistol for the exact size reason. Though admittedly that distinction in definitions doesn't exist in all languages, any full auto gun firing pistol caliber ammo is called a "machine pistol" in Finnish for example. There's no such thing as "submachine gun".

[@rogo7330]

I suppose they will not do great against modern armor. Even "AP" 9x39 for VSS looking bad today. Imaginate how bad pistol will do in that situation. Besides, most paramilitary forces (police e.g.), if expected some shooting around, just tossing "concealed weapon" concept out of the window and bringing something that can shoot futher and punch through at least some armor. Or maybe it's just soviet-block era "police" that damaged my view into thinking that way because they carrying freaking AKS-74U for "intimidation".

[@capnstewy55]

The Mauser was popular because smgs didn't exist yet.

[@ryand2939]

I think it's more because China didn't have much ability to develop their own weapons at that time. SMGs did exist in the 1920s and 30s but they would have needed to have come up with a simplified design to make local manufacture feasible.

[@Edax_Royeaux]

It's hard to argue against a full auto pistol that fires 1000 rounds a minute.

[@jirja3192]

Wasn't it also because of embargo on rifles if I remember correctly?

[@owenbevans6062]

Any person killed by a pistol with a stock attached knows that a stocked pistol is not to be under estimated a second time! Too bad they cant can't give me the thumbs up now.

[@perolavhavik2585]

Could it be that pistols with removable stocks are best suited for well to do civilans who travel a lot in high-risk rural areas going from urban area to urban area? Examples may be a business man traveling in the old West or in 20's and 30's China. This way they had a "carbine" to defend themselves against higway robbers etc., but in towns or cities they could put the stock in the luggage and carry the gun like a normal pistol.

[@ADRay1999]

Stocked pistols definitely were the predecessor to the Modern PCCs

[@jarink1]

I would disagree. Most PCCs, especially AR-based models, are short rifles rather than stocked pistols. About the only new-ish ones that are stocked pistols would be the ones that are chassis for pistols.

[@lasskinn474]

if we were having this discussion in some other languages than english, it would be different because the base word for what is a submachine gun is a pistol. uzi is therfore a kind of a pistol etc.

[@itsapittie]

@@loquat44-40I’m not sure the M1 carbine qualifies as a pistol caliber carbine. It’s almost in a class by itself.

[@bindingcurve]

@@itsapittie more like if your going to put a stock on it and make it semi auto you should give it a bit more kick?

[@_Scipio__Africanus_]

my cx4 storm really does just feel like a giant pistol sometimes

[@EnigmaNL]

You should make a video where you compare shooting a pistol on the range with and without a stock attached.

[@earlyriser8998]

Everything you said is why the USA developed the M1 Carbine with realistic accuracy at 100 yards and even 200 yds (not feet). I had one and loved it until the tragic boating accident when it was lost.

[@guaporeturns9472]

I love my M1 Carbine.

[@ripvanwinkle2002]

i had one and didnt love it.. had 2 actually. didnt hate them.. they just werent as good as a true assault rifle. and werent much better than a decent length barreled PCC or SMG ( depending on your budget) i know IAN is in love with them. but i owned them when IAN was still figuring out if legos or lincoln logs were cooler unlike Ian ive also served active duty in combat.. there is no weapon BESIDE a normal pistol id take an M1 carbine over..

[@dubjubs]

Boat companies making a killing these days

[@Rumblestrip]

Pietta and Uberti do have stocks for cap and ball revolvers as well Ian. I have one and i have setup a few pistols to use it... I have a decent collection of colt repros. In general, i agree. With the 1851s in particular, its hard to get my eye low enough to get the colt sights. The stock just doesnt bring the gun up high enough. Ive used it a few times and it helps, but i really need a pistol I've shot quite a bit as its basically reactive shooting.

[@foxmulder7616]

I want one of those long barrel umberti carbines!

[@SinistralRifleman]

A stocked pistol like the USW with a properly designed duty holster that auto deployed the stock on the draw would be useful for law enforcement and maybe reduce the amount of mag dumping with low hit ratios. The NFA hinders development of these things because if the common person can’t buy it, it’s harder to justify r&d and production. The NFA hinders sales to LE as well; more paperwork, more record keeping, individual officers can’t purchase, etc. If red dot sights required a $200 transfer tax to own, they would accordingly be less advanced, larger, and not optimized like they are today.

[@havareriksen1004]

I think it would be worth a mention the stocked options in the 1960-70, when the VP70 and the APS Stechkin. The Stechkin was issued much like the original stocked artillery Luger, but found itself more popular with special forces. So history repeats itself. These days, it seems the pistol chassis is taking over the niche previously held my pistol stocks. While the stocked pistols seems to have inspired the development and issue of proper submachine guns, the miniature submachine guns like micro Uzi, CZ Scorpion, Mac 9/10/11 and the smallest of current PDWs seems to fill the same niche as a stocked pistol without offering a good solution to offhand shooting like a true pistol.

[@nemoanon5615]

Practicality and logic will never stand a chance against swag and cool.

[@jamesclark6427]

I fired the B&T USW not long ago, which is essentially a shoulder stock handgun. I really wasn't expecting much, but I was pleasantly surprised. There's definitely something to it. I was able to easily drill tight little groups at 25 yards with the optical sight on it. More so than an unstocked pistol. So it surely is something. But ultimately it doesn't seem to offer a substantial advantage over having a high level of skill with a conventional handgun. Which is far more portable and maneuverable. Definitely really cool and fun though. 🙂

[@Dominic1962]

Nice smoking jacket! Seems like the concept reached its zenith of use in China during the warlord period when they used them as semiauto carbines and also sub machine guns with the schnellfeuer and various Spanish copies. It was just one of those perfect alignment of the planets and stars situations that gave brief rise to such a thing. Personally I think the 7,63x25 cartridge was the best for the concept as well, but has its own drawbacks too.

[@HellbirdIV]

I think the proper modern incarnation of the stocked pistol is the Submachine Gun, PDW or PCC with a folding or collapsing stock. Guns like the vz. 61 Skorpion, Uzi or the MP7 especially fit the bill - they can be carried with relative ease in pistol configuration, pulled out and fired pretty readily with either a modern two-handed pistol stance or even fired in an early 20th century 1-handed stance, while having an integral stock that can be easily set up even in the heat of combat for accurate rifle-style shooting. Is a true pistol smaller and more easily concealable? Sure, but that's always the compromise you make, and carrying a separate stock for your pistol is probably just as conspicuous as carrying a larger gun with a collapsed stock anyway.

[@Zoraxon]

I feel like the biggest downside of modern contexts (namely civilian) of these is the intent pistol caliber. Concealment of a carbine, effectives of a pistol. It'd be nominally easier to hand a stocked pistol with a dot to someone (wife, friend, brother, etc) who may not have as much handgun experience and have them be a bit better with it, but at that point why not just get a little carbine breakdown? Three points of contact are nice but for the effort, I'm not going to lug around a backpack or similar to conceal it just to get 9mm when i could use .300 blk, heavy 5.56, or even (and in my schizo use case train of thought) 7.62x39 in a broken down backpack pistol. All that being said, I still think they're cool and I want one someday.

[@fruitbat4429]

I notice the stocked Browning was one fitted with a tangent sight. Which happens to go up to 500 yards. Even with a shoulder stock, that pretty much defines optimism . . .

[@salvadorsempere1701]

Not really, if you thought that 1 hit per 100 rounds is a perfectly fine rating. And in a military context 1% of hits it´s really good. Think about a battery of field artillery being armed with Artillery Lugers, and being attacked by an enemy force. If the 100 men of the battery each fire 2 magazines, that´s 1.600 rounds. A 1% accuracy it´s 16 enemies in the ground. Most possiblye good enough to break the attack in less than a minute

[@fruitbat4429]

@@salvadorsempere1701 Hmmm . . . not really convinced that a pistol with a shoulder stock, even in volley fire, is going to be able deliver effective fire out to 500yds. Heck, WW2 placed the limit of effective fire with a full powered rifle at 400yds.

[@riu.1180]

Would you call these the grandfathers of the modern PDW concept? Seems like they may not have been big in their day but look at the Flux Raider and Micro Roni getting more popular as the stocks get stronger.

[@kentallard8852]

Navy SEALS used a modified S&W Model 39 the mk 22 mod 0 called the "hushy puppy" in Vietnam, it came with a silencer AND A STOCK and was used for sentry and guard dog removal

[@danhanrahan9459]

I heard a us federal agent made prolific uss of a red 9 with a stock in some Spanish village almost 20 years ago.

[@davidjernigan7576]

It would be interesting to see an accuracy comparison between an artillery luger and a luger carbine. The stock could be helpful on an actual machine pistol to aid in control

[@messmeister92]

There’s another practical reason that was sort of touched on, and that is size. Pistols are a close-quarters firearm that, ideally, can be quickly drawn, maneuvered and fired at close range. Add a stock to that weapon and now you’re doubling or tripling its size, making it harder to do all those things.

[@favne8345]

In Norway pistols are very restricted especially for hunting you can not hunt with a pistol because it has no stock but if you get a pistol with a permanetly attached stock you can use it for hunting

[@Ass_of_Amalek]

in germany they let you pretend that pistols are for hunting.

[@foxmulder7616]

Lol can't have our Norwegian slaves getting uppity now! Especially when we're sending in the Muslim hordes into Scandinavia to replace them!

[@Stevarooni]

Like pistols in the UK...you can get a 1911 _if_ it has a longer barrel and some kind of stock (even if it's just a stiff bit of wire).

[@Kesssuli]

In Finland it is illegal to hunt with pistol. Ending trapped animal is only exception in that rule. And if you attach stock on your existing pistol it had to be remavable whitout tools or risk getting problems because modification which change weapon class. for dummies: weapon class is pistol=Dont hunt with it. Ak/AR for hunting is okay. Just remember use limited capacity mags which are regulated by hunting laws for semi-automatics.

[@Stevarooni]

@@Kesssuli Mag size limit is pretty widespread for hunting. It's true in the U.S., for waterfowl (max 2-shell capacity). In Missouri, you have to use 10-round mags for rifles, when deer hunting.

[@jenniferstewarts4851]

red dot + screw on barrel extender (pushing the five seven, barrel from 4.8) out to 16", with a stock attachment. I can see being able to shift an FN Five seven from a pistol, to a carbine... given the five seven's abilities... Would actually turn the five seven into an ok varmint rifle, or multi-purpose survival weapon.

[@patrikhjorth3291]

I have a few multitools, including a proper Victorinox "Swiss army knife". I _love_ that Victorinox, because it lets me have the basic functions of several different tools in a tiny package. It will never perform any of those functions as well as a "real" tool, and I'd be stupid to expect it to. But if I just quickly need to tighten a screw, or cut open a cardboard box, it will serve me a lot better than a good screwdriver or boxcutter that I left back home in the toolbox. These pistols are an excellent example of the same thing. They are likely to be more accurate than the same pistol without a stock, and easier to carry than an actual rifle carbine. As Ian points out in this video, those traits are a lot less useful to most firearms users than a multitool is to the average person with a sudden need for a cork screw.

[@alimanski7941]

I've seen plenty of security personnel (in places like train stations) using modern stocked Glocks

[@egomania2792]

I was immediately reminded of this. On my last Trip to Israel, many security guards in the train stations carried stocked pistols, or rather thos Glock conversions. I think I saw a Flux Kit as well, but only brief and from afar, so I'm not sure.

[@alimanski7941]

@@egomania2792 yep, exactly those, I live in Israel :)

[@gunlovingliberal1706]

Thank you for this informative video. I have always wondered about the effectiveness of stocked pistols. Your comment about the sight picture was a revelation.

[@brianzimmerman4837]

I really think the stocked pistol concept really only works in a civilian context. Specifically as a bagged hold out gun/emergency survival gun, or in security roles where having a rifle/carbine isn't feasible. The military has a tendency to push things well outside their box to the point where they become inferior to other options.

[@crowsbridge]

I think there is a use-case for them outside of military use. Especially, the modern types that use fixed red-dots, such as the usw-g.

[@kneyork9930]

Hello, I agree with all your comments in general. However, my Grandfather was an officer in the Canadian Army in WW1, he captured a Luger early in the war, and carried it shoulder-stocked all through the war, and in almost all the major battles, including Vimy Ridge. He cut out the back of the holster, and carried it with the shoulder stock on/attached to it that way. My point being he thought it was a pretty good set up for leading his men "over the top" and charging enemy trenches. Of course, being an officer his requirements for a weapon were a bit different, but still, he engaged in a lot of combat with a shoulder stocked Luger, and staked his life on it. ! He was wounded once, and gassed once. I have that Luger and holster, (and one magazine serial numbered to the pistol) however when my grandmother brought it and his shotgun to us after he passed away, The U.S. border people confiscated the stock. My father told me that the stock had a different serial number on it, so he must have picked it up after capturing the Luger. I suspect it was an artillery or navel Luger stock. I did see it once or twice in Canada, it was the flat-board type of stock. The pistol is a DWM/1915 with German unit/weapon numbers on the grip. Okay, just saying, some considered it (shoulder stocked Luger) a useful weapon in combat. If you are ever in Eastern Washington state, drop by and do a video on it. :) It is dripping with "provenance".

[@Voltaic_Fire]

I wonder if the pistol stock idea would work better with something like a FiveSeven or some compact autopistol variant. The 5.7 round is very aerodynamic, armour piercing, and retains its accuracy over longer distances. More than that the round is compact and doesn't produce too much recoil, meaning you can store more per magazine and a whole bunch more in a hollow stock along with attachments, and the recoil isn't going to break the hollow stock, especially if it is made from a strong and light polymer. Correct me if you think otherwise, I won't get pissy, but I really do think a FiveSeven with a stock and maybe a suppressor would work better than any previous iteration of the idea.

[@cheesenoodles8316]

Visual impact hanging on the wall, or at the pistol range is were they are best.

[@KentuckyAk101guy]

I love them but my opinion on the matter in a military context is they were great when they were relevant which was really WW1 because a stocked C96 or Luger P.08 was so much better when going over the top to raid a trench then even a Kar 98az. Once the mp18 came out they were immediately obsolescent. I don’t think they are relevant today either, because of submachine guns and guns like the AKs-74u and Mk18 (I think thats the designation lol) that have a more powerful cartridge and short profile.

[@cymond]

OTOH, most people can't get a true submachine gun, only a semi-auto clone. Comparing a semi-auto "SMG" to a stocked pistol, the "SMG" has a little better ergonomics, while the stocked pistol is a little smaller and lighter.

[@ripvanwinkle2002]

yea except this isnt a new season of COD and real people dont have access to submachine guns and short barrelled assault rifles. pistols however..

[@KentuckyAk101guy]

@@cymond Apologies for not being clear I was referring to them in a military context. For a civilian I can see some positive attributes for them so you are correct. This is just my opinion but I still think sbr’s are better (other then having to register them). 9mm will actually go through more then a 5.56 or 5.45 will due to bullet mass. While not as compact as a stocked pistol, you have a more stable platform and better cartridge. I do understand that you cannot always carry or even have a sbr style of rifle in all places so until that verdict is overturned as I hope it will be. I can still understand the merits of a stocked pistol in civilian hands. As for civilian smg’s I’m personally not a fan as you probably guessed I’m more of a AKs74u style type of guy so I prefer them over even civilian smg’s

[@KentuckyAk101guy]

@@ripvanwinkle2002 no need to be that way. As I told the other commenter I apologize for not being clear and that I was referring to them in a specifically military context. However I still stand by my opinion that sbr’s even civilian sbr’s such as Aks74u or mk18 are better then stocked pistols (as you have a more stable platform and better round in terms of a home defense situation) both of which you have to register. I do understand the point that you cannot always carry a sbr type rifle around and for the modern civilian market a stocked pistol does have its merits.

[@-John-Doe-]

They’re great. Chassis systems are a joke. Just make a holster that functions as a brace/stock/chassis today.

[@Chilionloppu]

I think that the Vz 61 skorpion is one of the best attempts at a stocked pistol. Small enough not to be in the way with the folding wire stock and with plenty of firepower.

[@BrochachoEnchilada]

In theory, but the stock is extremely uncomfortable and I find it slips often. Something like the C96 is way more comfortable to shoot, and in the case of the C96 the sights are actually not bad

[@JeffreyWarrenYoung-yy1uj]

I fired 3 rds & broke but going 5o get a Glock M21 16" barrel chambered 45acp/45Super & 460 Rowland Plus shoulder stock with the inserts to the M21 grips I may put an EE R 1 to 4 powered Scope I really LOVE your channels I have LOVED firearms since I was 3 or 4 '68 Riots my grandfather 5:00 Sam bought a 20 guage & my brother who was/is 11 years older. gauge He had taken it down forearm barrels & action but couldn't get it back together. I rode in the back seat & put it back together...My grandfather was mad ??? You must have broke it ?!?!? Got to Van Buran's Gunship he handed to Vanburoin No he did it right. How did you know how to put it together...I saw "the Walls" moved when you moved the breakdown action...That made a HUGE impact with me I have been chasing to become a RKI Peter Kokalis of SOF Small Arms Review etc etc ETC... I look forward to enhance my RKI ism ness Thx Jeffrey Warren Young

[@JohnWaldron-cm7ce]

Good lord, have you heard of grammar and punctuation?-John in Texas

[@hunterwayland78]

As military arms, I agree with Ian's analysis that stocked pistols have super niche uses, and in the modern era have been replaced by miniature carbines or smgs. However, I think that in a civilian context, the stocked pistol/pdw that can be holstered and easily concealed has a great deal of practical applications, especially with modern red dot optics. The reality for most people, even in disaster scenarios, is that a carbine draws way too much attention. A stocked pistol being able to be tucked under a shirt or in a small satchel makes a lot of sense if your goal is to be armed better than a handgun but not as conspicuous as a rifle

[@GunFunZS]

I think it makes a lot of sense for a pilots survival kit.

[@davidkermes376]

sounds like a description for fn's ps 90 - or p 90, if you're so inclined.

[@ryand2939]

Stocked Glock 20 would be ideal.

[@tsorevitch2409]

Civilians should not often face a situation when they need to engage in 50m+ firefight. And attaching a stock to your pistol tase a bit to long for most of self defense scenarios.

[@heyhayhay247]

@@tsorevitch2409 He's referring to something like a Flux Raider being deployed from a bag for medium distances like 50-100 yard active-shooter scenario. Outside of Glock, there aren't really any modern pistols that offer a detachable stock like earlier pistols.

[@jonathanenglish9146]

I SBR'ed a Glock 22 several years ago. I like it but most stocks I've tried are awful. Fiber optic sights work pretty good, but like you mentioned, RMR sighted slides work much better. I also use a folding forward grip to make sure my hand is out of the way, but then I cannot holster it. Using it as an optimized pistol is acceptable, but it will never replace a rifle or carbine. I also like the option of multiple capacity magazines and calibers.

[@cymond]

Which stocks were the worst? Which are the best? I'm waiting on my SBR tax stamp on a Glock 17

[@jonathanenglish9146]

The Roni stocks are crap and FAB customer service sucks. I also tried this weird fist looking clamp-on stock adaptor that is also crap. Oddly enough the old style FAB stock that mounts in the grip hole behind the magazine hole works fairly well.@@cymond

[@cymond]

@@jonathanenglish9146 The old FAB telescoping stock? I've been considering the FAB Cobra folding stock. If that "fist" one was the ENDO Glock adapter, then I'm familiar with it. I had one with an arm brace, but it really sucked. It was too bulky to leave on, and too slow to attach/detach to be practical.

[@jonathanenglish9146]

It's actually a TAC Limited stock made in Israel for gen 3 Glocks and an FGG-S folding grip also made in Israel.@@cymond

[@professionalvr]

The Soviet Stechkin pistol also came with a shoulder stock. There is also a Stechkin with a wire stock and silencer.

[@SillacSaurfang]

The NFA and it's consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

[@MGood-ij1hi]

Two things that don't make sense, a pistol with a monstrously large size caliber, and a pistol used at long ranges, because in both cases that's what rifles are for. As a man once said `A pistol is an emergency tool used to fight your way to your rifle'. Even if I were going to "bear country" I'd carry a large caliber rifle rather than a .44 magnum pistol because my fear of being eaten by a bear is greater than my fear of carrying the extra weight.

[@PSUQDPICHQIEIWC]

I don't really give a crap about the tactical utility or the tradeoffs with open sights. With a physical disability stability is difficult. I want a lightweight shoulderable firearm in no more than a pistol cartridge's energy for mundane use at relatively short-range. Rifles are pretty much universally too heavy, the COG is further away which makes stability horrible, and they're more expensive if I had to buy it. What toasts my buns is that everyone and their brother is clowning on the ATF to pretend that a rifle is a pistol so that they can put a stock that's not a stock on their pistol that's not a pistol because most of them pretend that they need it. I mean, by all rights they should be able to do whatever, but here I am with an actual disability and I want to put an actual stock on an actual pistol for basically the same reason, but clown world says "no no! you're pretending wrong". F me for being honest about it, right? Either way, the world militaries of 1920 don't need them anymore, so if stocked pistols suck, I'd like an unburdened consumer market to prove it. I also want a lot of other wild impossible things.

[@patrickholt8782]

I say they’re all bad. So if anyone has one you should send it to my house for disposal.

[@ripvanwinkle2002]

they have their uses mostly when weight and space are at a premium and youre already tasked with, or going to carry a full sized pistol.

[@jonathanlunger2775]

I've always thought a .356 mag pistol with a stock would be perfect for hunting. Depending on the area you live in, imagine a dense woods where 100yrds is the furthest you'd ever shoot, any hunting rifle is overkill, and I dont trust the average shooter to hunt at 75 yards with a regular pistol. The weights/sizes are so much lighter that packing in/out is laughably easier, and a pack of 20 30-06 rounds are bulky, whereas 20 rounds of 357 is one handful

[@thomasgrable1746]

I always like Colonel Douglas Mortimer in "For a Few Dollars More" with his long barrel (14 inches in the novels) .45 revolver with the detachable shoulder stock. The cool factor was high, but honestly, pulling out a lever action Winchester would have done the job better.

[@dieselten01]

Taking a handgun, the loudest and perhaps most uncomfortable concussion firearm(read large caliber revolver) and mounting it and firing it mere inches from your face. Brilliant…

[@anttimohkoi7437]

Silly Ian. That flintlock is clearly from 1980. It says so right under the gun in that neat little tag. ;)

[@LAHFaust]

I would argue that the TMP, MP9, and MAC-10/11 are a continuation of this idea. The ability to make an automatic weapon that fits in the palm of your hand has relegated semi-autos to the realm of solely close range self defense for thise who need a back-up or don't need a weapon every day.

[@gargean1671]

A bit strange that no mention of APS was made. It was both widely issued with holster-stock and used in combat in multiple wars.

[@helixx92]

I like a stocked pistol over a pcc for being shorter, the magwell is in the grip, lighter, and having a delayed action vs a heavy blowback action. Only issue is if it’s on a sling you have to figure a manual safety solution

[@KnightsWithoutATable]

So, you are saying that ban in the US is just as nonsensical as it sounds?

[@chrishesotian1654]

i largely agree. if im holding anything against my shoulder, i want it shooting rifle or shotgun ammo. Stocks completely inhibit the two advantages that pistols have over every other type of firearm, and that is portability and concealability.

[@nekobyoneko444]

I didn't know that the Bergmann No.5 pistols had stocks, that last pair with the extended barrels are badass. Would love to get a No.5 if I can ever find one. Saw a Hi-power with a stock that the owner had modified sights to be a tight wedge, made it a bit hard to see at arms length but it did feel nicer when shouldered.

[@RGD2k]

Shoulder stock makes any weapon more deadly in CQB. Which may be why they're so restricted: Police don't want to bust into a room with armed people, and less so if the incoming fire is possibly more effective for these. Hard to test, but I bet under the stress of combat and panicked return fire, having a stock closes what would otherwise be a massively wide spread, even at close range. So i'd suggest a stock doesn't help much on the range, but probably helps a lot in a firefight - especially if your only other option is the same weapon sans stock. Obviously if caught in that situation, you'd rather have a smg, carbine or, much better yet, shotgun - if not just a rifle that can penetrate cover anyway. Situation dependant. The problem with a detachable or even folding stock is, if you need it, you're likely not going to have the time to attach it. Even with a folding stock this can be true, so you are better served carrying a PDW, carbine or SMG. The 'holster stock' is somehow even worse: The one job a holster has is to safely carry a gun in a way that makes it quick to access if you need it. Those do not at all look 'quick to access'.

[@GaryT1952]

Dad had a Colt Model 1905 with a shoulder holster that was very awkward at best, My fav was a WW2 Inglis Hi-Power with a wooden shoulder stock/ holster

[@michaelwright2986]

I've never shot a stocked pistol, but my first thought was that sight radius would put a limit on accuracy, when using iron sights. I hadn't realised that it's worse, with the pistol sights being used at the wrong distance.

[@Fredo63200]

I can't imagine a soldier happily carrying that big ass wooden holster at his belt

[@Edax_Royeaux]

In the mud of WWI, they might appreciate it though.

[@tacticalmanatee]

if not for the NFA I'd definitely have some stuff along the lines of the FLUX Chassis or B&T USW. Not sure I'd have much use for the more traditional type of stocked pistol, though. But if not for the NFA, something in the form of the MP7 is better in just about every way over a stocked pistol. The PDW is really the evolution of the old stocked pistol in many ways.

[@poprocket2342]

What about their practicality as a full auto weapon. Obviously these are even more rare which kind of speaks for itself but the practicality of a stocked full auto or burst fire pistol compared to a stocked semi auto pistol has the potential to give an advantage to the user where a full sized submachine gun may not be as concealable. An obvious example would be the VP 70 which I know you dislike. There's also the Berretta M93 Raffica which I believe was used for a time by the Italian police and of course the various stocks available for the Glock G18C

[@jfangm]

If the LP.08 had used the stock from the carbine model, it might have been more accurate. What sets the LP.08 apart from other pistols, save for the C96, is its rear sight, which was designed for use with the stock. The one area where stocked pistols could be useful is in security work, especially against active shooters. In particular, the Artillery Luger. With security, it isn't always practical to carry around a rifle or PCC. With the Luger, you have the benefit of 32-rounds with the drum and the added stability of a stock (and the convenience of a sling, btw), whenever they are necessary, while still presenting to the public as just carrying a pistol. Which is a better look for public relations.

[@billrivenbark8983]

My C-96 has a Mauser rifle rear sight and I find it very accurate and easy to see when using the stock on it.

[@SoloPilot6]

While they were custom builds, I'm surprised that you missed the U.N.C.L.E Special pistols.

[@recoilrob324]

The C-96 benefits the most from a shoulder stock because of the ergonomically woeful grip design that is much easier to shoot when the stock is added. The 712 full-auto would be a must with stock or it's just a noise maker.

[@JohnTBlock]

It strikes me that those built with Plank - stocks, with the leather holster strapped on, would fare better than the fully inletted versions...

[@jessebell1930]

@ForgottenWeapons solid points. I remember having a conversation with a Korean War Veteran from our Battalion Association (2 RAR- Australian Army) after we got back from East Timor. The conversation came up because I told him Australian Infantry generally have very little training using pistols. Which is true. Special Forces aka Commandos and SAS do extensive pistol training, however Regular Infantry do not. He said much the same as you. There was a lot of close quarter combat at times in that war, and some small amounts of stocked pistols were used by certain soldiers. Machine gunners in general were issued pistols as backup (especially as the Chinese often overan positions temporarily), however that was generally the extent of it. I don't know if the stocks were issued or otherwise acquired (he did say some American and British troops were issued them), however he said they "weren't much chop". That he would take an Owen Gun anytime for close quarters. If a Digger from a war that didn't finish until 70 years ago was saying what you are saying now, I think time tells all that is needed. Love your work mate. And great work with the Artillery Luger at the range👍

[@justinbiller6683]

Pro: you can shoot better Con: the atf shoots your dog its a hard choice

[@deekim8164]

A question I asked myself when I was a youngster, watching the old Clint Eastwood flick, Joe Kidd.

[@evilwelshman]

So, from what I'm hearing, a lot of the drawbacks with stocked pistols - sighting systems and durability of holster-stocks - seem to relate more to technological limitations at the time. I wonder if those could be resolved using modern means. Perhaps using some sort of polymer for the stocks and - as mentioned in the video - red dots for sights? Yes, they might not be as good as a SMG or actual rifle. However, having a stock on a pistol is still more accurate than a pistol without. So, for personnel who require a pistol and not a larger weapon (e.g. to appear less intimidating, convenience wearing it on the side, concealability), I can still see a potential niche for stocked pistols - e.g. for police, civilian-facing military personnel, etc.

[@GNP3WP3W]

If only we didn’t have the NFA. Having the ability to convert a pistol into a carbine in seconds is an amazing tool

[@camsoup101]

The best modern example I can think of in the United States is probably The Invader series of 3D printed Glock style handguns that have been popular lately very cool design much more in line with slide in travel of recoil

[@BigWheel.]

Theyre neat, but i think they're appealing in the same way aussie cars are desirable in America, we dont get them so because of that we want them even though the people that could own them typically were never all that crazy about them.

[@jasonbrown467]

i put a stock on my pistol crossbow, its still super light, easier to cock, and my shots are way better. it basically forces me to hold it about the same way for each shot. man this stuff is fun

[@josephk.4200]

I think any modern pistol that converts to a carbine should utilize a longer barrel (5-8”) and attach a fore grip via under barrel picatinny rail. Combined with an attached stock, a red dot, and a gently recoiling cartridge(5.7 or 4.6) and operating mechanism; you get an extremely controllable, light, compact PDW from what a minute ago was a service pistol. It should be carried like that until you need something more concealed.

[@BadBomb555]

Could have mentioned Borchardt C-93 pistol. That gun was basically build to be used as a pistol carbine for it's awkward design. And yes, stocked pistols are still used today as both sides in the war in Ukraine are known to using Stechkin pistols as part of the pilots survival kit.

[@schweineful]

I am a terrible shooter with pistols. Had the chance to try out a Luger with shoulder stock. Gamechanger. Perfect

[@fuge74]

I think the concept is that you need a pistol that can have a stock, but that the stock is a feature and not a primary requirement. I would think if it wasn't for the NFA we would have PM 63, MP9s, and scorpions chambered in 5.7 as a PDW. From a military perspective you would just jump tot he next thing which is a full on rifle. this limits the stocked pistol for personal defense and police work where there is a standard upper limit for how powerful you need a gun. the PDW basically has a tight niche for hikers and as a truck gun for people who will have time to respond to a situation and match levels of force, or who want a pistol but will make distance shots like in hunting or varmints and so want a compact tool.

[@AllAboutSurvival]

Personally, I believe stocked pistols can be both useful and challenging depending on the situation and the shooter's preference.