Stop Defending BAD choreography!

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[@BattlewarPenguin]

I will never forget how in The Last Jedi 3 red troopers stopped midfight to roast some marshmallows together mid choreo

[@novaiscool1]

Or how one just drops one of their weapons at random to make losing easier

[@zephyr8072]

*ThE fOrCe*

[@thomasself8096]

Then there is the guy who could have killed Rey, that had his weapon magically disappear from his left hand in the throne room scene, right before she does that stupid lightsaber drop-catch thing.

[@stuwillis]

This happens in most choreographed group fights. You'll see it in John Wick, you'll see it in Blue Eyed Samurai (which shot stunt viz) and mor. It's a classic problem if you want your hero to survive a fight where they're outnumbered and the environment doesn't give them any advantages.

[@zephyr8072]

@@stuwillis You do not justify garbage by stating that the garbage happens elsewhere. But what else to expect from anyone who'd defend Rian Johnson's talentless incompetence.

[@jankarieben1071]

I love this guy, he’s all; “here let me teach you how to do it right…ok now let me show you how to do it wrong better…” Classic Sword Bro! 🍻❤️🤺

[@joshkappers5530]

I'm surprised there was no mention of Christopher Lee, the actor for Count Dooku, in the video or in the comments, since he was an experienced fencer and has had a long history of sword fighting in movies; as a good example of course

[@benjaminthibieroz4155]

Yes, probably the most proficient actor in sword fights, with wise insights on fights choregraphy as well. Viggo Mortensen also trained intensely and became a competent swordman doing a lot of his stunts (that cost him two teeth...). If Lee had been 30 years younger when Lotr came out, a duel between those two would have passed into legend...

[@thunderdrae7749]

I'm convinced there's nothing Christopher Lee hasn't done at this point 😭. Like he's been in a band, worked in a spy, actor, and is an experienced fencer.

[@lordbiscuitthetossable5352]

And even then, Chrispother had some massive limitations that prevented him being an effective fight actor; which necessarated stunt doubles for many of those fight scenes. which isn’t a slight because he was in his 90’s and still had incredible stage presence that made those limitations worth working around. That man was a master at selling authority and seniority. Which, examplifies how hard it is to find great action actors.

[@raftguy1376]

And had war/combat experience actually killing people with blades. Not saying that should be a prerequisite, but the man didn’t have to pretend to know what its really like. He had firsthand knowledge.

[@callumbiasnow4825]

However they made him fight a spinning, flea like Yoda which ruined the scene. I don’t know why in ep 2 and 3 they insisted that everyone has to jump 20 feet for no reason.

[@gw1357]

Star Wars has always taken a lot of pride in having the actors do the lightsaber work themselves. Ewan and Hayden will talk for hours about all the time and sweat they spent on it. I think that greatly benefited their characters. But they were willing to invest in it. Likewise for some of the others you mentioned, like Reeves in John Wick or Damon in the Bourne series. The Captain America movies were a really good middle ground where Chris Evans and Sebastian did a ton of fight work, but they also supplemented them with stunt guys. My sense for the sequel trilogy is that Driver probably invested more time in it than Ridley, plus he was probably starting from a higher level of athleticism and combat feel. I think part of what hurts the sequel fight scenes is the uneven-ness in skill level between Ridley and Driver.

[@dragonstryk7280]

Which they should've USED, instead of basically holding Driver back the whole time. It's a trilogy. Luke gets nearly killed four times in Ep IV, but we still root for him, then loses to Vader in V, and again, we're still pulling for him.

[@garrettmccullough2249]

For real. You just look at how Kylo Ren seems like he's using a very heavy greatsword or claymore with heavy, powerful movements that add to his character esthetic. So much of their fight scenes basically come down to Kylo just not taking very obvious opportunities to outright kill Rey.

[@Densoro]

This is a solid breakdown of 'Amateur vs Martial Artist/Fencer.' In a setting where competent, military-grade CQC exists, yeah, it's harder to sell the idea of an absolute clown main character holding their own. It just seems like, particularly in anime-flavored settings, formalized self-defense _doesn't exist._ In the real world, fighters with big, sloppy moves get better by getting smaller and less sloppy, turning martial arts into a science. But in _these_ types of settings, fighters instead _specialize_ in big, sloppy moves. The villain is threatening, not because they've become a proper fencer, but because they've cranked big, sloppy amateur swordsmanship up to 15. Therefore, the protagonist can defeat them by getting better at the sloppy nonsense they're already doing, rather than doing something new and more efficient. Realizing this is how I stopped driving myself crazy whenever I played Kingdom Hearts lol

[@screwgoogle4993]

"Military-grade CQC" If only you knew....

[@Gojirasaurus_rex]

You see this in dragon ball the moment someone is stronger than the villain, they fold because they villains cannot fight properly

[@chrisdiokno5600]

I think its cause, in a vast majority of anime, with some exceptions, they're less so going for even semi-realistic swordfighting and such, but by what looks visually appealing

[@sydneymads5220]

Now I need a sword hero isekai where the mc levels his amateur sword skill to 15 but the bbeg has 5 levels in real fighting and just curbstomps him every time, only not killing him because a companion has a gun lol

[@CedricDur]

@@Gojirasaurus_rex Dragon Ball is a setting where 'being stronger' (having a bigger power level) literally increases their speed, their strength, AND their sturdiness to the point someone much weaker cannot even hurt them physically if they can even land a hit. Imagine a Jackie chan where he's dodging a guy with a crowbar and selling how skilled he is. But in DBZ the guy with the crowbar is hitting them repeatedly while they ignore the blows. So yeah, when villains are almost literally invulnerable they don't need to get better. There was a manga of 'what if Vegeta instead of Goku was sent to earth as a baby' and as expected Vegeta easily clears the floor with everything and everyone. But at the start of the Namek saga when the sayajin come to Earth he's woefully unprepared because he never had to try and train as hard unlike Goku.

[@peterw8835]

Thank you for not putting the blame on the actors and bringing up behind the scenes issues. Too often people blame the actors when it is because other people are making the choices.

[@FurnaxIkki]

For real. Rose got so much hate in TLJ as if she somehow had creative control over what they were doing with her character. Same with Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver.

[@robertharrison1058]

Sabine vs shin is the worst fight in star wars and I blame dave filoni for it they was all over the place its why you need rehearsals and this whole corpo crunch is part of the problem but dave failoni don't review his work before going through with it theres no double checking the work before print its why they bad.

[@lucaschudleigh7193]

That’s a nice way of excusing responsibility from someone who put their name to a product. There’s a thing called integrity… If you have any, you won’t attach your name to garbage.

[@peterw8835]

@@lucaschudleigh7193 That is high minded and elitist you you. We are talking about art/entertainment, not cigarettes.

[@dalekrenegade2596]

​@@peterw8835 Pretty sure I saw this guy bash the writer's strike too.

[@pyroblade4312]

In my opinion, there are two sides to choreography. Realism and looking cool. The originals have realism. The prequels look cool. But the sequels? Well, they have NETHER!

[@pyroblade4312]

Please inform me if there's anything I missed.

[@superherogenius9363]

Yeah, that pretty much covers it.

[@Nazar_Melnyk]

Hate be that guy, but... ...you probably meant "neither"...

[@pyroblade4312]

​@@Nazar_Melnykyou have better eyes than me

[@gustavchambert7072]

I don't really see how the originals have "realism". As far as I remember, it's mostly just wild swinging from both luke and vader, with little or no hint of actual guards or real moves. But besides that, I agree with you 100%. And even the originals look several times better than disney sw.

[@JunelieArthur111]

The "inexperienced" excuse could learn with how Bumi is animated in The Legend of Korra. He does not do the fancy bending techniques, but survives through creativity. Hell, even Jackie Chan movies do this A LOT.

[@Tigermaster1986]

Bumi is an incredible martial artist, though, he is just not trained in air bending.

[@hanelyp1]

Drunken Monkey style: a rapid and dynamic succession of simple moves. Not much tactical depth, but responds to the situation at hand so quickly that the enemy's tactical planning gets scrambled.

[@BlastingXNP]

You changed my mind. When I think of the prequels, especially the Obi-Wan and Anakin duel, I think the choreography was the gold standard of what actors can achieve in doing their own stunts. But even then, while watching it is still a great experience, the choreography still leans towards protection for the actors in that they fight one another's saber instead of of actually fighting each other. The fight you two created in five minutes was extremely solid, and that is just raw footage of a single angle. Using a team with these talents and giving them the proper time and CGI and special effects in post production would give us something truly special we have never seen before. It has truly convinced me that fighting and stunt experts should be used in these circumstances.

[@anton.chigrinetc.96]

Jeez, that lightsaber colour is something else. I love it. Like a blood orange or something. I even felt like getting some rum for a cocktail. Also, yes, fully agree: Finn vs Kylo Ren is literally the only duel in a whole sequel trilogy that doesn't wound the eye. Well, my eye, at least.

[@silanae]

I really liked this video and the way you build up the fight choreography while explaining what was going on and why. Made it easy to follow along and was rather enjoyable to watch.

[@Aquilenne]

What about when there's fatigue and injury? The third duel in The Duelists stuck out to me as being incredibly sloppy compared to the first two, but I justified it as the fact that we're only looking in on it after it had been going on for a while, both having exhausted themselves and suffering from multiple bleeding injuries for an extended period of time to the point where they couldn't do subtle movements because they could barely continue to use their weapons.

[@anton.chigrinetc.96]

Those were still saber fighting moves. Not baseball bat swinging.

[@TheOnlyToblin]

I used the "Kylo took a bowcaster to the chest" excuse as the reason why Rey was alive at all. Not as an excuse for bad choreography, which I agree with. The lore explanation as to why she isn't a shishkebab is because he was almost dead already. Also, can we give Kylo some props? Man took a BOWCASTER to the chest and still fights. What the heck?

[@anton.chigrinetc.96]

Arguably worse: abdomen.

[@_____Astral_____]

couldn't have been too bad of a hit if he was purposefully banging at it to worsen it

[@peterw8835]

The problem was Kylo was acting very hurt, which like choreography goes to poor directing choices.

[@JainaSoloB312]

That's not why Rey is alive, Rey is alive because Kylo never intended to kill her, he wants to recruit her. Same reason Luke survived ESB. But thanks for remembering Kylo was very wounded in that fight, most people conveniently forget that detail

[@notthatgerry]

I refuse. You will not tell me a trained user of the force will have that level of proficiency in light saber fight even wounded. It's been almost 10 years since the first sequel and the movie still sucks. Be

[@lilmcging5305]

I would love to see your perspective on the Dune Part 2 choreography

[@blizzardgaming7070]

The only thing I can complain about that movie is that it often feels like grappling matches while holding knives rather than knife fights, they are based on real techniques but I think you can count the amount of times knives contact on one hand.

[@kasenmouneimne225]

Yea because there are a lot of holes in that combat

[@ignisincendia9430]

In a knife fight the knives are not supposed to make contact with eachother. It's far easier to block the incoming arm using the knife and try to immobilize the knife arm first than it is to block a knife with your own. ​@@blizzardgaming7070

[@GGBlaster]

Honestly, I think the first Rey v Kylo duel would’ve been massively improved by simply giving Rey a saberstaff (others might know it as the double-bladed lightsaber). She was already good with a quarterstaff; a saberstaff is, compared to a standard lightsaber, a far more logical transition. “But whose lightsaber would it be that she found?” Good question - nobody’s. Starkiller base was built on Illum, where the Jedi went to obtain the crystals they put in their lightsabers. It wouldn’t be a stretch for her to find a functioning saberstaff either out in the woods or in a First Order storage room.

[@aliddda328]

I'm not saying that I don't agree with you your point isn't invalid at all the main reason the fights is the old movies were old except for no 4 cuz they just begun is cuz they used the star wars dueling styles they are fighting styles of the lightsabers each char uses one of those 7 ways I can't remember all of thier names but they won't be hard to look up what I'm saying here you're just deciding a style for her and it's only compatible with the 7th style of which is forbidden to the jedi and we've seen the dark side version of rei basically using that kind of lightsaber another problem is that jedi aren't ok with customizing thier weapons they let the force guide them of course we've seen exceptions but both of the ones ik turned to the dark side so here's that

[@FirstLast-wk3kc]

"Bad choreography" is not always bad CHOREOGRAPHY but bad montage or angles to mask it. For example, a lot of Rings of power has decent choreography, but the montage and camera angles reveal a lot of it's fakingness and etc.

[@rylar0514]

I agree with your point. Limited experience with swords. Real world fights get nasty real quick. Unless one side gets it over fast both get injured or die. Realism is hard to mimic if you have a predicted winner

[@Valagrimm]

The choreographer involved with the originals, Bob Anderson was an olympic fencer and understood the art of fencing and fighting, Nic Gillard, who was the Prequels fight and stunt coordinator was part of the circus as a kid and was chosen by Mark Hamill to be his stunt double in Return of the Jedi, so he likely worked closely with Bob Anderson throughout the film. I am not positive if Nick practices HEMA specifically, but he is very proficient with fight choreography. The stunt choreographers for episode 7 like Rob Inch have done some medieval stuff, but they don't seem to have transferred the skills, and/or they were very hollywood esque fights to begin with. For example, a couple of those involved with TFA did work on The Northmen and The Outlaw King, which had some acceptable bladework for... hollywood.

[@HIDDEN_HIPPO]

This video was very well done, reminds me of some Game of Thrones fights. Jon snow vs Karl, very well done. Karl is clearly winning because he’s quick and playing dirty, he knows how Jon will think and exploits it throughout the fight. On the other hand, Ser Arthur Dayne just goes reverse grip for a split second when it’s just him and Ned stark for seemingly no reason. The greatest swordsman, putting himself at a disadvantage. What sucks the most is that it didn’t even look that flashy, looked like a wimpy swipe. The fight of course was good but it’s permanently brought down by that one silly decision.

[@benjaminthibieroz4155]

To be fair, Arthur Dayne switching grip isn't that absurd. A big issue he would have while swinging 2 longswords is them going in the way of each other. Especially while facing a single oponent with all happening from one direction. Grabbing the way he does could somehow pass as using the sword as an improvised shield. Would be more effective to just use one with two hands but well...

[@Aaron-io8vw]

like v Vader in Empire.is a good.example of inexperienced v experience. Vader spends the first part of the fight testing Luke's ability and is even fighting one handed till Luke jumps out of the Carbon freezing thing.

[@hanelyp1]

Also character motivation: Vader was determined to bring Luke in alive, which required avoiding any number of shots that could have dealt a killing blow.

[@JainaSoloB312]

​@@hanelyp1Kylo also clearly wants to keep Rey alive, he literally says "You need a teacher, I can show you the ways of the Force". Kylo doesn't want to kill Rey any more than Vader wanted to kill Luke in ESB.

[@chriscage669]

@@JainaSoloB312yeah also snoke said to him If things he said to her are true bring her to him

[@spicyman6006]

The real reason they're bad is cause the producers don't think the audience will care whether they're good or not. I think.

[@gw1357]

The fight work in the Kenobi series was outstanding. I'd enjoy seeing you guys do a video analyzing that.

[@paanjaan]

Everytime i see opponents turn to each other backs in "spin attack" i die a little inside

[@dragonstryk7280]

In the prequels, Ewan and Hayden were straight up competing with each other, trying to learn the stunt guys' moves to try and one-up each other. There's SO many hours of video of them training, and breaking training weapons cause they're going so hard at it. We've got basically NOTHING like that from the sequels, which shows you the issue. Another issue with the Ep VII fight is Kylo specifically ISN'T untrained, while Rey has only JUST turned the lightsaber ON for the first time, and the only 'fight' we see her in before that is against Finn, who is desperately trying to NOT fight her. Yeah, she knocked him down, but I mean, if MIke Tyson in his prime is just standing there letting me swing away and not even trying to block, I can kick the shit out of him like it's nothing, ESPECIALLY if I'm armed with a weapon while I'm doing it. It doesn't take a skilled fighter to beat up a person who has no will to defend themselves. Like, this should've been like the Cloud City fight in Ep V, where we see Luke going all out, but Vader is fully pushing him back with minimal effort, having enough time to critique his fighting ability while he beats him across the city. It would've established her as an underdog, given us a meaningful arc to her training in the Force and how to wield a lightsaber, and set the scene for their next conflict.

[@TreeHairedGingerAle]

I reiterate, you and your friends are _brilliant_ at explaining and demonstrating: showing how to express both narrative, and emotional tone, via fight choreography. It's an awful shame that there is no category for stunt doubles in the Oscars. I remember watching old movies with my Mom when I was little, where sword fights were ABSOLUTELY an integral part of telling the story (such as in 'The Court Jester'! ... apparently Danny Kaye's sword fighting teacher had to step in for many of the stunts, because Kaye was inexperienced, and so displayed the aggressiveness you talk about...which means that even the famously experienced swordsman who played the villain in that movie would have been in terrible danger of doubling with him if he'd done the stunts himself 😅)

[@crrnan_thrr_brrbrrrianrock9092]

I remember the comment that lead to this! After watching this I have dropped this thought. The Disney threequels were pumped out as fast as possible to probably cash on the Star Wars excitement before if fizzled out. So they cut corners where they could and the fight choreography may have been that corner.

[@X_x_ShadowGaming_x_X]

You know this video doesn't just speak to sword fighting choreography, but fight choreography as a whole. There are so many main character syndrome fights that occur in various action packed media where the protagonists are SUPPOSED to be inexperience yet they beat their opponents with relative ease. Playing into your strengths and SHOWCASING struggle to convince the audience that they are inexperienced but still showcasing their lucky win is a beautiful way to describe what studios SHOULD do.

[@maievenkodon5488]

loved this more long form videdo, and seeing someone talk about fight choreograpy was super cool, your contents always great, keep it up n do what you love!!

[@spokilt]

The flailing newb can be really hard to handle because they crazy weird stuff. Really good video

[@RedHandedGod]

I think there's an element here that David is missing, though. And to preface this; I agree the new trilogy choreography isn't good, and I agree about every point made in how to make it look better. The blind spot I think David has is that he actually knows what he's looking at/doing. This is an issue that really cannot be overstated. What makes someone look obviously untrained and overmatched to someone that actually understands fighting isn't the same as what makes someone look untrained and overmatched to someone that knows nothing. Especially in a film series that has established pretty rotten technique as 'masterful' and 'the best saber fighters in the galaxy.' Right? I don't think even a basic understanding of sword-fighting has entered pop culture in any meaningful way. And so 99.9% of the Star Wars audience wouldn't even pick up on the stuff being talked about in this video. Wide swings are bad? I absolutely guarantee you, with no insult intended to anyone, that most people wouldn't even think of that while watching the fight. Now, I'm not saying the SW team did a good job finding a different way to show lack of skill or whatever they were trying to do. They definitely did not, as evidenced by how up for interpretation it is when discussing why the fights look bad. But I also don't quite think David, respectfully, has hit upon the solution here. If there even is a good solution.

[@theeviloverlord7320]

I am not that competent with a sword, yet I the sequels fight scenes always stuck out to me as awful and unrealistic,

[@KorgCrimson]

Very valid point. But here's the thing. This video brings that knowledge to the general masses that you said they lacked before. Approximately 15K people saw this video. Had he brought up this point in this video, it would have helped it make a bigger impact. In a way the point was there, but nowhere near as in the foreground as it should have been. It wasn't generalized enough, but he was likely trying to stay on the topic of star wars since it was being used as the point of reference.

[@burtybarto3389]

Hey! Long time viewer of the channel. Given with your expertise in swordsmanship you should consider being a fight choreographer for movies! If you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself! Corridor Digital made a video of their take on realistic lightsaber combat. I would LOVE see your take on their work since they consulted actual swordsmen to make it. Great work as usual and keep it up!

[@JainaSoloB312]

Good video, a character being inexperienced doesn't excuse bad choreography, but is TFA really "bad" choreo? Given the goal of making lightsabers feel heavy and unwieldy (like the OT), this choreo does most of what you suggest: Rey attacks out of measure forcing Kylo on the defensive, Kylo forces Rey on the defensive and she parries while retreating, before using her athleticism to run away and force a badly injured Kylo to pursue her. She even uses the environment to her advantage, slashing a log behind her to impede Kylo. Tired and sore, Kylo has had enough and his next onslaught drives Rey across the forest and sends her scrambling. Rey tries to take back the initiative but Kylo gives her no openings. After driving her even further across the battlefield, Kylo quickly forces Rey into a bind he's clearly winning, until she taps into the Dark Side and overpowers him. *(The only phrase I consider bad choreography, is the reverse grip bullshit, embarrassingly using a strictly fanon idea and trying to convey story with it. Otherwise, Rey's huge downward cut followed up by a kick, lunges, and angrily pacing all reference Anakin, Palpatine, and Maul respectively, conveying her Dark Side rage very efficiently through choreography alone.)* Rey even uses something approaching a high Sabre guard before grappling with Kylo. Her final cut ends with a flourish (mirroring Kylo's at the start of the duel) that demonstrates she has better control of the weapon now. This duel tells a story and tells it well, so what is "bad" about the choreography? By what standards do we judge that? Yeah there's a lot of big sweeping attacks but there was in the OT as well, (especially RotJ) even the very clip you used of ESB shows some pretty awkward and clearly-staged rhythm, and I'd argue that's the best duel in the saga. Frankly I think the TFA duel is second only to ESB in terms of storytelling through choreography. Sequel choreo I do think is bad however, atrocious frankly, is Rey vs Kylo on Kef Bir (death star ruins) in The Rise of Skywalker. TROS choreo is bad because it conveys no story or character, Rey is still fighting like a novice after a year of being a Jedi, the changes in techniques don't follow emotional beats (at least the stupid reverse grip in TFA was to show Rey was enraged), it's just to mix things up arbitrarily, there's no sense of momentum or interesting dynamics or character arcs. This is because TROS is the only SW film (of the main 9) to not have a swordmaster (CC Smiff did TFA&TLJ), only stunt coordinators. Which is why the only character beats in the Kef Bir duel happen in the stunts (Kylo dodging Rey like a Jedi before the duel, Rey leaps over the waterfall, contrasted by Kylo walking right through it) and not the bladework. That's why I think the TROS choreo is bad, why do you think the choreo in TFA is bad?

[@thenameless2379]

The fight you guys did was more believable that any of the the lightsaber battles in Star Wars especially the prequels (even though I love all 9 movies)

[@The_Twig]

"Oh no! I don't wanna" would have been hilarious to hear in the actual fight in that movie

[@bb1886]

On the last poit with the stunt doubles, i think it really depends. The cliffs of madness fight in the Princess Bride, was the actors, but they both practiced a lot.

[@theeviloverlord7320]

yeah, its either hire a stunt double, or teach the actors how to do it properly

[@tompatterson1548]

@@theeviloverlord7320or hire an actor who already knows how to do it properly

[@user-pv7je3bf4k]

As a film grad and practicing martial artist, couldn’t agree with you more on Hollywood not putting enough time & effort into most of their fight scenes; also, your choreography is genuinely better than what we actually got in the sequel trilogy, great job 👍🏾

[@MalloonTarka]

I'm convinced by all of the points here... except the principle one. You have a tendency to make things black and white, declaring definitively that "X is BAD and my alternative is GOOD." You have a great deal of valuable experience and education, but the topics we're talking about are _art,_ which is only infrequently universally agreed upon to be GOOD or BAD, even among the experts. A tad amount more nuance and modesty would not be amiss here (because even given your breadth of experience, you're still young and there is always more to learn). If you want to definitely declare something BAD, you really need to take it apart more, from multiple angles. At the very _least_ you should not simply dismiss the people who disagree with you as categorically wrong, even if the arguments you've seen in their favour are poor - steelman them, if you can. And given the value of GOOD or BAD: In your choreographed fight, if you had not walked me through it, I would not have seen what you were trying to convey in the scene. Even knowing what you were doing, I could only _very_ subtly see the information in there, and this despite me not being a casual film enjoyer and being a swordplay enthusiast myself (though certainly nothing approaching your level). What stood out much more was that your character was aggressive and bold, while your opponent's character was defensive and careful. If I didn't see the subtlety in there, I have good reason to believe even less experienced people might have even more difficulty. Even if it goes against the very fibre of your being, the fight probably needs to be bigger and more obvious. I have a suspicion that your very expertise might be working against your here - the Curse of Knowledge probably causes you to see the nuance and subtlety as blooming obvious and makes it hard for you to understand the perspective of us ignorant (descriptive, not pejorative) laypeople. For all the legitimate grievances against the Star Wars sequel trilogy fights, I understood what they were trying to tell me. (That's not to say you should never do things subtly, of course. In fights like these additional layers of subtlety can make the entire experience richer for those who do have that knowledge or take the time to look into it (and spawn a thousand youtube video essays), while in more dedicated enthusiast films you can rely on a greater base understanding in your audience.)

[@kloa4219]

I kind of roll my eyes at "realistic fight choreography" since fight choreography is unrealistic to begin with. If it were realistic, then the empire would blow up the planet instead of allowing millions of their soldiers to die to Jedi. Modern olympic fencers end fights with one swift thurst instead of multiple strikes. Fight choreography and action scenes are always done to tell a story, not be realistic.

[@wizardozark2735]

Very well said sir drip. I agree very much.😊 Though some actors are both, most in star wars are expected to do both, or be both.

[@combat-greyhound565]

Credits where Credits have to be givin. The Prequels did an amazong job with that (at least most the times). Both with choosing someone like Ray Park to play Darth Maul but also by giving Evan McGregor and Hayden Christensen literly month to train for their fight scenes to become as good as even better then the stunt doubles. How ever they are also the moments where they felt into the exact problem you mentioned. The one I allways have in mind since Nick Gillard uploades videos of the training is the Fight between Palpatine and Windu we were getting robbed from by making the last moment decision to let Ian McDiarmid do most of the fight scene.

[@MizanQistina]

Luke vs Vader in ESB is the example of unexperienced vs highly experienced lightsaber fencing.

[@lady_draguliana784]

I agree with you. TBF, the OG trilogy had a legit sword-master in Bob Anderson playing Vader during those fights. and the (ick) Prequels... had legit Martial Artist Ray Park, and TONS of time to train the other actors. Frankly, the issues with the sequels is 90% Wall St. (Legally required Return On Investments require Profit Margins to cut deeply beyond the gross income of the corporation and into what SHOULD be held for operating costs). and that meant that they had to get SW sequels out RIGHT NOW to not tank. The other 9% was in the Disney Boardrooms. the last 1% was in the writers' room. but really it was, as you noted, all about The Crunch. they just didn't have enough time to give them the rewrites they needed, the actor training they needed, to stop and think and make the smart decisions they needed (like stunt doubles having more to do) etc. etc. etc.

[@GoldusVR]

Why did u have to say “ick” at the prequels. I get some ppl don’t like it, but imagine people not having any idea what the clone wars for 41 years. The biggest part of the prequel’s job was to explain the things the audience didn’t understand.

[@lady_draguliana784]

@@GoldusVR I'm not opposed to the concept of prequels, just the ones we got. If you enjoyed them, more power to you, I envy you, but having BEEN one of those folk thinking about the clone wars and the rise of the Empire since first seeing the original films (in which Han Shot First) over a decade before Ep.1 was announced, i know EXACTLY the anticipation you're describing: and also the crushing disappointment of the results. I WAS one of those folk, speculating as to the events that preceded those in the original films. Then was in eager anticipation of Ep. 1 before going to the theater to see shite writing (and acting from Hayden in eps. 2-3) dumping on the whole of the franchise to completely abandon even the pretext of story or character depth in favor of merchandising, which is saying something, considering how hard the originals were merchandised. Like ruining the whole of the lore of The Force, for no other reason than to sell a knock-off of the star trek communicator... to call the films that succeeded the original trilogy "incongruous" would be a massive understatement imo... GL pretty openly HATED the originals, and rather than the team writing around them (as fans had proven was possible in EU novels and fan-fics) they chose to retcon the originals so hard that GL ordered them Heavily Edited and the originals all destroyed! For previously die-hard fans like us, it was like going to a concert for your favorite band, paying full price to hear the music you love, only to have the bands' untalented kids come out on stage and play nothing but beginners-level covers of Nickelback for 6hrs, occasionally playing ONE song from the band you came to see, and doing it badly. The ONLY thing that was really GOOD about the prequels, from my standpoint, was The Duel Of The Fates track... I could go on about their failings, but there're plenty of great video essays here on YT that've done great jobs of it already...

[@chrisdiokno5600]

@@lady_draguliana784 I mean, we still have the Force, its just to me, midicholarians were one of the ways the body could "channel" the Force. Plus Hayden IS a good actor, IMO, but moreso in like, actions. Like how he and Padme look at eachother from the Temple and her apartment, more or less. Its in his facial acting and expressions. Plus the fights are fun. Plus EU had as much bad as it did good

[@lady_draguliana784]

@@chrisdiokno5600 I respectfully disagree. As for "The 'M' Word" (Sideshow Bob Shudder), I'd have been okay if they'd flipped it: the more you use the Force, the more of it you have, the more hospitable your body is to M-words; making them an effect, rather than a cause. I suspect they did this to try to set up the Dark Troopers' (etc.) force powers via blood-transfusion, but they could have still had them be an effect of one's force usage, but that store force in them (like mitochondria for the force). but they didn't bother to develop it, in order to develop the narrative, they chose, instead, to retcon it with the gusto of a lactose intolerant kid discovering ice-cream... so good for them in the moment, then they, and everyone around them, suffers...

[@chrisdiokno5600]

@@lady_draguliana784 Eh, to each their own. I saw it as like say, Magic Circuits, what helps people channel the Force

[@tristacampillo302]

I love the scream when you roll Great video, I love the channel

[@forsagebone]

Man the hyper aggressiveness and overcommitment of attacks AND the frantic and wide defenses really sells the inexperience of the character. It really makes sense while still looking cool and on brand for Star Wars. Bravo man 👏

[@darththeo]

You can even use the fact Kylo was injured in the fight choreography as well. Maybe there are certain moves he can't do or he is slow to react because of the injury. He literally tanked a shot from a weapon we saw send a similar mass due flying earlier in the film. He has to be hurt severally and pushing through the pain, but that can still come out in the fight.

[@ShuRugal]

My favourite sequel fight scene was where Rey was fighting a Guard trooper who had two weapons, until she threw herself on one of them and the editing team had to remove that weapon in post.

[@talostheking8529]

It's crazy how this fight was better than anything we ever got in the entire sequel trilogy.

[@_drnova1064]

This is so good and simple. I do not get how no Star Wars director has figured this out.

[@_drnova1064]

Well, actually, the fights in the original trilogy felt pretty real, but they were kind of boring.

[@BigR0lla]

I did my research on Ben a while back. The dude has at least 10+ years of training from Luke Skywalker and 3+ years of training from Snoke (literally poppy palps). I'm pretty sure it was more than 13 years in total, but I can't say anything more without confidence. Kylo Ren was highly trained and preferred a more reckless and careless saber style to beat his foes with shear force and strength rather than skill and finesse.

[@zephyr8072]

I suspect that the sequel fights were a response to people saying the prequel fights were over-choreographed. The problem is the solution to that is not to under-choreograph. Jank doesn't look natural. It just looks like jank.

[@bbirda1287]

One aspect of the force you don't mention that might affect the fight would be foresight, they can see into the immediate future, sort of like the fighting scenes in Sherlock Holmes where he envisions the outcome of fighting Moriarty before it happens. I don't know how that would change the fight, but it would allow an inexperienced fighter to make more experienced looking moves. That's how they counter laser blaster fire.

[@laufert7100]

On the last point, i watched The Fall Guy yesterday (absolutely loved it) and it really felt like a love letter to stuntmen as a whole

[@carolusrex3585]

The real reason was that they used not the light savers that was light and would get animated afterwards but with sabres that had lights built and were much heavier so they weren’t able to move so quick

[@carolusrex3585]

Still those last movies are trash XD

[@LBJedi]

If the more inexperienced character has some experience with a Paul arm like Rae’s staff, would you add in attacks that might be more suited for that sort of weapon as well? Sort of like tge character is thinking “well I know this. Maybe this will work!”

[@oldeskul]

Disney could have hired stunt performers that looked like the actors, at least in body shape/build, and then rotoscoped the actor's face over the stunt performer's. That's what they did in Rogue One with Grand Moff Tarkin and Princess Leia, they mostly looked good and the only reason they looked odd was because the the scenes with them had lingering closeup shots. In a climatic fight scene this issue can be compensated for by keeping the fighters in the mid-ground and using smoke/snow/steam/dust/whatever drifting in the shot to obscure some of the weird artifacts and plastic-y look of CGI rotoscoping. Also I feel they really missed out in the final climatic fight scene by having Rey and Kylo have to constantly move around and separate to avoid the trees falling around them, harkening back to samurai films and anime where the characters are fighting in a burning castle or crumbling structure and have to constantly dodge falling debris. I mean the first lightsaber duel between Rey and Kylo Ren took place in a forest where their lightsabers were cutting through the trees. They could've also done the whole epic zoom-in-zoom-out like what we saw in 300. But of course the reason why we didn't get any of this in the sequel trilogy was because Disney blew their (cash)wad on the SFX. Can we also talk about how too many movies that have a climatic fight scene, it's poorly lit? How can we, the audience, get invested in what is supposed to be an epic showdown if we cannot see what's going on? Having a poorly lit fight scene can help to add to the confusion of the scene, like if the main character gets jumped at night by assassins, they weren't prepared for it and had to basically brawl for their very survival. But in the final, climatic, one-on-one showdown, you need well-lit set pieces and stable-cam. The only time I could see shaky-cam being viable is if the duel is happening somewhere where there is some pretty violent seismic action happening, like on an active volcano, or if it's happening in the middle of an active battle where big war machines are rumbling around, bombs and artillery shells are falling out of the sky, bullets/laser beams/blaster bolts are whizzing around forcing the characters to duck and weave to avoid the errant shots(you could even have camera tilt that gives the impression that the cameraman and by proxy, the audience, is having to dodge these errant shots too), this could help to add to the feel that the two are dueling somewhere that's highly dangerous, but the audience being able to see what's going on during the fight is imperative.

[@FredbearOfficial]

Judge Metal Gear Rising Revengance's choreography Specifically Jetstream Sam

[@stormlord1984]

Semi-realistic choreography, with respect to character and story. You need to be hired for cinematography.

[@RealBelisariusCawl]

It’s a VISUAL medium, film is. It’s imperative in a fight scene that the action TELLS the story. It’s not like real combat, it’s about telegraphing what’s happening to the audience; it’s a dramatisation of a real fight. Compare the swordplay in … well, basically any good film to HEMA matches - the real deal is hard to follow if you don’t know what you’re looking for. Realistic, yes, but good mass appeal, no. Stage combat is basically performance art. A bad fight scene can completely RUIN a climax.

[@misteraskman3668]

I just erased a comment about Keanu Reeves training martial arts for his movies (or at least John Wick), but the stunt double argument is solid enough for me. Darby Allen is an amazing wrestler and part of that is because he is a professional stunt double. Every time I see him wrestle, I wonder hw is it that he can make such horrible things to his body safely. His first major injury happened recently because of a traffic accident, so he knows how to make stuff look amazing. Stunt doubles deserve so much praise.

[@JoshuaB-wu8pk]

One of the things I was thinking about during this video was about a lot of fan made fight scenes make the Sith seem reckless in their anger. This is a mistake. In the Sith teachings (as scene in the Darth Bane book series) they are actually quite strategic in their movements. Darth Bane had a technique that he would hide his true power and skill up until a critical point when the opponent was tired or let their guard down due to this false front.

[@ignacnovotny2808]

Prequels fights had too much dance contest and not enough fights. Half of these fights is twirling lightsaber behind their backs absolutely uselessly and rest is hiting each others lightsaber with no intent too hit other person. Sequels used hevier props so they got closer to OT which looked more like fight and used fights to tell story instead of showing how long dance actors can prepare. I'll take any sequel fight over anakin and obi-wan twisting lightsaber behind they backs for several seconds for absolutely no reason :-D Matt Easton has pretty good videos about fights in sequels kzbin.info/www/bejne/pmm5mIGdn9Fqpqs and in prequels kzbin.info/www/bejne/aKuooKJrqKetg9k

[@lordbiscuitthetossable5352]

I agree with these points, but I particularly want to put empathsis on the stunt actor. Sure, *if* the actor is well trained in performance fighting (which is what all on screen fighting is.) then For example, the Mandolorian is largely voice acted my Pascal, who brings his talents as the presence. But there are two other actors who play that particular role. There is the body motion actor who does likely *most* of the mandolorian’s onscreen movements and is part of what sold his character to me, as they are clearly well coordinated. There is also a much larger stunt double who handles most of tbe dangerous stunts. This isn’t to say that any of them is unskilled labour; Pascal is fantastic as always when unhelmited, particularly during S2 E7 and that season’s finale, but he just doesn’t move like that body double can. Likewise with Chrisopter lee. Fantastic actor with immense presence, but he was also 90 something at the time of firming so him doing his own stunts was unrealistic. Sure, his knowledge of fencing and Luca’s fanboying hard over having him on set contributed a lot to his eventual characterisation, but stunt preformer *need to get more credit*. Also, side tangent, I would rather Mark Hammel and Harrison Ford be recasted then whatever is going on with CGI. Looking at Luke in Book of Boba felt *really odd*. Like watching two puppets interact on stage without interactions. That and Harrison Ford is both a great and terrible actor for Han Solo.

[@nicholasisabelle1558]

U should do a cool series where you do something like a green screen background and add the SFX and do 1 v 1 battles like Dooku vs Maul or even something like Samurai vs Knight

[@joshkee5733]

One thing i say about TFA is Rey has some melee weapon experience. So she should be able to stand with an injured Kylo Ren. However they could made the fight better.

[@jedironin380]

"But it's Star Wars, so who cares?" Hey Now! Those of us who grew up watching fight choreography from the legendary Bob Anderson and Nick Gillard, WE care! Great video, as always!

[@Ilovemenfr]

They should mix the practically of the og trilogy with the flashiness of the prequels

[@ShuRugal]

"Actors doing own stunts" we can even see areas in the Prequels where this was both good and bad: Ewan McGregor is pretty good at doing his own stunts. He's not the best, but he's good enough that it doesn't detract from the scene. It's sometimes obvious that he's doing a rehearsed routine, but it's also obvious that he put the work into that rehearsal and made it look good, and he only gets better as the trilogy progresses. Liam Neeson, on the other hand, looks much more wooden and stiff in his fight scenes. Sword fighting is clearly not his thing, but he's been doing action movies long enough to power through it on sheer commitment to the role. Ray Park's Darth Maul was amazing. The man was very clearly selected for his athletic talent. Ian McDarmid had no business doing his own stunts. I can't say if it's his age or his lack of inclination towards sword fighting, but Lucas's last-minute decision to swap him in and toss his stunt double had catastrophic effects on the quality of the throne-room fight. Hayden Christensen's fighting performance in Attack of the Clones was a little rough, but overall on par with the standard Ewan set. His performance in Revenge of the Sith, though, was amazing. He clearly really enjoys swordfighting performance, and it's obvious he put a lot of work into improving so that he could put his own personal 'flair' on it and give Anakin a swordfighting style which is both visually distinct AND martially effective. Hayden and Ewan's talent and evident enjoyment of sword fight choreography comes together to have exactly the opposite effect of the throne-room fight in their final fight on Mustafar. IMO, the fight sequence there manages to communicate a great deal of the emotional and mental state of the characters, and the reason it works so well is because the actors are both dedicated enough to the "kinetic" aspects of acting that they were both able to bring a recognizable "flavor" to their characters in that fight.

[@redLoki88]

The Oscar for the stuntman is the Taurus Award, just a info. And the voting for 2024 was from 18.03.2024 to 12.04.2024, from their website.

[@SellswordArts]

Still not an official one

[@CedricDur]

That last bit about the actors doing their own stunts reminded me of the cringe of watching fight scenes with non athletic persons. Even the James Bond movies with Sean Connery. Everything looked so slow, so clumsy, huge haymakers, super wide punches. There is no sense that the person is as expert fighter. And expert fighting does not have to mean oriental martial arts either.

[@emilyallen7912]

Someone hire this man

[@Deliriumend]

I love how your choreography for the inexperienced fighter also includes an explanation for WHY the greatest swordsman doesn't fear the second greatest swordsman, but the ignorant farmer who just picked up a blade for the first time. Or whatever that saying is. Also, very brave to go after the mouse's fight choreography. Even if I agree with it. Love your insight into this stuff.

[@mjsuarez79]

Stunt performers stepping in for actors is great for film, but I work in live performances. So, should fight choreography be part of the audition process, in the same way that dance choreography is?

[@thomasculshaw8843]

Loved your choreography. It looked amazing and told a story

[@sunwukong798]

Wait people actually DEFEND the Kylo Rey fight? That is absolutely freaking hilarious!

[@CrazyTasteyPi]

It's kind of interesting to me the parralels I'm seeing between fight choreography and what can happen in a fighting game. Specifically that talk about, "taking turns" That was actually something thats talked about in fighting games, and it basically boils down to what was said here: knowing when your opponent is open to attack. Just find that interesting.

[@hamstermk4]

I would like more videos where you show how to express certain character or plot traits through fight choreography. Perhaps introduce a randomized wheel of character motivations and/or circumstances. How would you express a villain wanting to dispatch the hero in a way that sends a message to his underlings fighting a romantic interest getting a feel for for how a potential partner reacts under the stress of a fight.

[@funkypunk1001]

This is brilliant commentary with great suggestions and a perfect example of good choreography that shows you know exactly what you're doing. Can't wait for Disney to ignore you 🤣🤣. That being said, one suggestion I'd make [just for theatrics] is to have the saber hit more debris during the fight to show the inexperienced fighter can't control their wild swings. Lots more cut branches, little brush fires, trees falling, molten scar marks on rocks and snow crackling. Maybe an overreliance on two-handed overhead axe swings trying to angrily slice your opponent in two like a hot dog. Just saying, the studio could have helped the scene too but you are right. They didn't quite convey the 'angry bar brawler' fighting style very well for Rey.

[@dh1148ify]

Prequel fights are the GOAT

[@mrhorrorface]

Me watching this getting inspiration for stuff, great video man

[@raynakamura2436]

Sequels doesn't have bad choreography, THERE WAS *NO* CHOREOGRAPHY

[@rustysbladeandadventure1729]

Great video thank you for making it.

[@michaelmurphy2112]

Honestly, I don't like the "hip pop" to avoid the wild swing for this specific fight. I'm not sure Kylo's armor would have allowed it. That said, this 5 minute choreography is infinitely better than what the professionals provided, but remember, Kylo wasn't trying to kill Ren, he wanted her to join him.

[@Thelordmagedon]

Oh, Bro, Idea for you to steal. Get a stunt group together, borrow some cosplayers, and do a remake of the Throne Room Fight in TLJ. It'd probably be a bit of a production, but you might be able to collab with other youtubers or something to pull it off.

[@thegrayowl1557]

I enjoyed the scene, and I want to see this. If all the people that complain about the original scene can come together and make an even better one, then I'd be thoroughly impressed

[@tutuadefolalu3661]

I will never forget how Rey and Kylo should have instantly died at the start of that throne room fight in Last Jedi because they forgot to about the Force and chose to use two swords to block six weapons. Any fight where the plot armor is that blatant is a failure.

[@samwiseb2799]

I mean not to defend the sequels because I agree the choreography is great but the prequel trilogy imo had worse choreography because everything about them felt like cirque solei instead of fighting. The sequel choreography isn’t great but the worst I can say about it is that it just feels like kids play fighting. OT had the best choreography but it was the most grounded out of the three it just wasn’t super visually stylish. Prequel trilogy was so over stylish and completely impractical like spins, reverse grip, etc. Sequel Trilogy is more grounded than the prequel trilogy but way less than the OT, it’s kinda of the midway between both OT and PT. I get why you don’t like the sequel trilogy choreography but PT commits more bad combat sins imo.

[@drofdelnadnerbdrofdel6782]

I actually have an explanation for Prequel Fighting Styles. They weren’t made for Blade-To-Blade fights. At the time of the Prequels, the Jedi thought the Sith were dead, gone for good. They literally found out they still existed when Darth Maul jumped Qui-Gon! And they had to debate, “Wait… is this real? Or a giant prank?” So, their forms were based off of deflecting blaster bolts, AKA, spins and deflects. The blades needed to move quick and fast, so that they could cover ground quickly. And when Sith showed back up, and were actually fighting Jedi, it wasn’t often. Take the Clone Wars show. Lightsaber fights are RARE! Most of it is Clones vs Droids, and a Jedi leading them. Sith barely show up, and when they do, it’s normally to fight someone WAY weaker. So the Prequel Jedi weren’t supposed to fight other Lightsabers. They were supposed to fight Blasters. Hence, the overly flashy and flourish-y moves.

[@Zato-CUBxCommander]

..yeaaa. There was one specific zatoichi fight scene id rather not talk about

[@esta_rodah4716]

Possibly a good question, I see in video games alot where the player character will kick an incoming blade, is that possible or would said blade just cut through or into the shoe/boot?

[@danielbenyair300]

i can't be the only one who immediately thought "the Dark Souls roll video"! can i?

[@H1Guard]

1. No spins in sword fights. Not unless the guy spins and the other guy cuts him down dropping his guard. 2. Han shot first.

[@rodrigomarcondes5857]

I'm really curious to know what are your thoughts on a lightsaber reverse grip, many characters in the EU use it

[@tompatterson1548]

The obvious thing rey would be bad at is edge alignment if she was used to a staff. Lightsabres’ big thing differentiating them from actual swords is edge alignment.

[@ScottBoydathome]

Stop Defending BAD MOVIES!

[@PsyJoeTV]

Truest of truths spoken.

[@greywolfson]

Hollywood please...hire him

[@RespitBAM]

How are these durable lightsabers called and where can you buy them?

[@Dazzle_Novak_]

Dagan Gera was awakened after 200 year old coma, without his leading arm, struggling even to maintain balance, and still gave Cal a better fight then we ever saw from sequels.

[@lucaschudleigh7193]

The reason we got what we got is simple: Disney hates Star Wars. They shit out some movies to make $$$$$$. Zero passion.

[@StabbyRIPaChu]

They needa figure out how to aim their guns lol

[@danielbenyair300]

DON'T TOUCH THE SHINEY PART! XD

[@nobodyimportant72]

Your last point about about fights being bad because the actors don't have the skill to portray it is 100% accurate. IIRC the actors in the RotS's Obi-Wan vs. Vader/Anakin fight put a lot of work in on the choreography for that fight. If it's to be believe Aragon's actor in the LotR also became a skilled swordsman. It might not be a fair comparison but I can liken actors performing their own fights/stunts to various RPGs where people expect the players own abilities to decide the outcomes of things instead of looking at the abilities the character they are playing is supposed to possess and using those instead.