I’ve had a surprising number of game devs reach out privately to thank me for making this. I have not heard from a single game dev who disagrees. 🫡
@schroomers66503 ай бұрын
Ok, glad to be the first then. Your take is awful and spits in the face of basic customer rights.
@kapsel473 ай бұрын
You Really Think Someone Would Do That? Just Go On the Internet and Tell Lies?
@jwueller3 ай бұрын
You can add me to the list of devs that disagree.
@Jokerister3 ай бұрын
Hi Theo, here's a dev that have another opinion on it, it might help to understand some people's thoughts on it: Stop Killing "Stop Killing Games" 2 Too By @Lets All Game Thank you for the video, have a good day.
@nono12713 ай бұрын
I guess CodeMonkey doesn't exist then. You should watch his video on this topic to see an example of a reasonable take.
@saulitix3 ай бұрын
8:55 what do you mean that people "don't care" when they pay for Netflix and they remove content? THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN COMPLAINING ABOUT. The fact that other industries use licenses to provide a shitty service and destroy consumer protections doesn't mean that games should just do the same. The difference is that when Netflix removes a movie or show, is very easy to just pirate it, but if Bungie closes their Destiny's servers, players are fucking screwed
@CrusadingSnom3 ай бұрын
what he means is, people still use it, they get mad for 5 seconds and then move on and pay money and everything else just like everything else in the world because people want the service still
@TheFounderUtopia3 ай бұрын
Literally why I left netflix lol.
@Andre-fm1zy3 ай бұрын
this whole video is just full of L takes😂
@saulitix3 ай бұрын
@@CrusadingSnomyou know why? Because it is extremely easy to find movies in pirate sites. I pay exclusively for Prime Video, and anything I cannot find there I just pirate it. It is FAR from ideal, but you know is available. Now tell me, please, how can I play Overwatch 1?
@Kulze3 ай бұрын
@@CrusadingSnom I use 1 service, I get my stuff from 1 service. If that service proves to be garbage I remove that service and pirate. Simple as that. Music, Videos, Games, it is of no matter, if you get shitty service they don't deserve your money, creators have to adjust to the customers, not customers to the creators. If there's no demand or your service is sub-standard you should expect to fail.
@trainee54713 ай бұрын
Looks up Thor's video Looks up some random article Cherry-picks random comments under Thor's video Um, how about addressing the actual campaign materials? What is this game of broken telephone?
@hrotger3 ай бұрын
typical corpo shill behavior.
@bapoTV3 ай бұрын
welcome to Theo's channel, it's only this
@SamWulfign3 ай бұрын
If gamers are entitled Theo, maybe you should just take it with Adobe. Roll over and accept those licensing terms and EULA's. Oh wait... you didn't so why should we? It goes both ways. And don't make the argument that you make money off it so it's different, we know you do. Software is software and if it clearly states that we are buying the software in clear text, Not leasing, Not renting, Buying. When we go to purchase it on their site then we should be owed that copy of the software to use for however long we want as long as we aren't breaking the law, it's that simple. Burying the fine print in 10's of 100's of pages does not hold up in the court of law in many countries. Newsflash, the entire world is not the US, if we don't live in the US we are not held to ToS or EULA's that would break our consumer protection laws. It's the same issue as with Sony and the helldivers debacle, Sony was requiring that players make an account however they can't because it's not within their country so by consumer protection laws they should be afforded a refund or the capability to still play it. It is just that simple. You and your friends are on shakey ground here and we simply do not agree with your takes at all, it makes it even doubly obvious that you are extremely biased because you are a developer and this could potentially cause you and your friends problems. Well we also have problems as consumers and we are crying out that our consumer rights be protected, With the US or without them. Your friend is also arguing in bad faith, and attacking the character of the person who is bringing this initiative forward, And I'm sorry I don't have respect for those kinds of people, and if you don't have respect for me because of that, that's fine. But don't be the fall guy for your friend who is arguing in bad faith.
@tablettablete1863 ай бұрын
Kinda of crazy the flip, Adobe is a very similar situation indeed
@SamWulfign3 ай бұрын
@@tablettablete186 It's amazing what happens when the shoe is on the other foot I find.
@jwueller3 ай бұрын
You hit the nail on the head. Perfect summary of the hypocrisy.
@gombike953 ай бұрын
Nicely said.
@NTR-Impact3 ай бұрын
As Louis Rossman would phrase it, "You know nothing and you'll be angry". How about reading the actual initiative and see how it *aims* to kill future games?
@VitoVitonerLanci3 ай бұрын
"and you insist on playing the old version, stupid". "Players are entitled" Sure. #StopKillingGames By the way, great work cherry picking comments.
@jadedplover18513 ай бұрын
Have fun with your games when you have no devs to make them, we choose to let you play our games, if you'd like then we can stop letting you play them
@NTR-Impact3 ай бұрын
I would suggest that you read more about the initiative. It is going to kill future games. I think the #StopKillingGames initiative is mostly for lonely, disgruntled boomers who wants to play MMOs solo.
@jwueller3 ай бұрын
@@jadedplover1851 Plenty of devs are in support. But mostly independent ones. The big establishment devs have too much of a conflict of interest.
@jadedplover18513 ай бұрын
@@jwueller Yeah my bad, I didn't fully understand the initiative but after talking to one of the main voices working at the initiative itself they've been able to explain it to me better. The consumer is only ever owning the client in most of these cases, they buy the client (in fact not even this they buy a license to use the client, the client itself is free), they never own the server, nor is the server being offered up to be sold. As such for most online games this won't apply since you rarely ever buy the actual game. That's what I didn't understand but now that I've had someone speaking for the initiative (actually one of the speakers set to talk at the EU commission) explain to me that this won't affect most online games or free-to-play games with microtransactions I'm all for it now and I've gone ahead and signed it c:
@VitoVitonerLanci3 ай бұрын
@@jadedplover1851Good. Next time inform yourself BEFORE commenting online, please.
@Edheldui3 ай бұрын
This clown just tweeted "At this point I'm not sure if gamers deserve any rights at all", in case it wasn't clear what kind of griefer he his.
@uis2463 ай бұрын
Man. This is hilarious. He also claims to represent all developers. And then real developers come out and support initiative... Yeah.
@lewismackay95332 ай бұрын
Him and thor have just basically shown the world their true colours, that they care nothing about consumers, value for money, or having any rights. All they care about is greed and entitlement.
@krayasou46302 ай бұрын
@ArmandoBroncas-1v Did he delete it? I can't find it anymore.
@krayasou46302 ай бұрын
@ArmandoBroncas-1v Thanks for that. I know it's true, I saw the tweet myself. I was wondering if I can't find it because of me or because he deleted, so I was wondering if you had a link to it but video evidence is great as well.
@khealer2 ай бұрын
I mean, have you see his hair(cut)?!
@shadener83203 ай бұрын
The levels of self entitlement are crazy in these comments. You expect to what, own games and be happy? Crazy delusional
@Joats3 ай бұрын
Will someone think of Ubisoft!
@bapoTV3 ай бұрын
@@Joatsman just imagine if Bobby Kotick couldn't buy a new yacht... I'm gonna buy some COD bundles brb
@Thornskade3 ай бұрын
You expect to be able to have a product that I sold you? What an entitled brat
@khealer2 ай бұрын
Yeet zee bugz!
@LetsAllGame3 ай бұрын
I'm a game developer, I disagree, and I don't want to be associated with you in anyway and am embarrassed for the industry. When you said you were friends with Thor I legitimately thought you might actually come at this from a genuine place. This though? It's just rage bait garbage. You want to keep fueling this developers versus gamers mentality with your mightier than tho attitude and "I know better than you" bullshit while you just regurgitate Thors' talking points, so be it. Really sad to see.
@yellowface63143 ай бұрын
Well said
@theidiotchildren3 ай бұрын
Game dev here as well, and yeah, using that as a shield like these guys have is pretty disgusting and really doesn't work when an entire development studio like Running With Scissors is publicly siding with Stop Killing Games. This issue isn't a game dev issue, it's a legal issue. If a lawyer wants to tell me I'm wrong, then I'll listen.
@philosoaper3 ай бұрын
if you want to be taken seriously, you have to stop selling games... and see how many "sales" you get when it says rent or if it says this game will stop working 3 years from today instead of BUY on the button you wouldn't tolerate this bullshit if you bought an appliance for your home
@Bokbind3 ай бұрын
The future is a sad wasteland of dead internet-connected appliances. :(
@t-rent2493 ай бұрын
Yeah seriously let’s see how big and bad he acts if he switches the button from buy to rent on his next release. Same with Thor, they’d do a back take immediately after sales dropped 75% once they’re actually honest with the consumer. Clowns.
@None383893 ай бұрын
I agree that making laws focusing on better informing the costumer on what they are paying for is a much better way to go than what this initiative is trying to do, I would've supported the initiative if it was about that.
@jadedplover18513 ай бұрын
Ff14 already does this, it sells a "license to play" in big bold letters, and it's one of the most popular games on the market currently as far as all games go
@buffhardback75953 ай бұрын
This guy is too stupid to know what you even mean by this comment.
@random_bit3 ай бұрын
Actually, I will bat for the CS:GO people on this one. No, Theo youre just factually wrong, you didnt get "upgraded" for free to CS2. They didnt ask for CS:GO to go away or opted into it. Instead of being a clown like youre doing here, take the time to understand why people play older titles like CS;GO, MvC2 etc... Just because there's a newer title doesn't mean the older one shouldn't be played. Many newer titles are not better than the older entries they supercede, and I would know because i play a 20+ year old game with a vibrant community since we dont like the newer entries. I should not be pigeonholed into playing a newer game i didn't ask for simply because the developer wanted to box me into the next one. Your take is a complete joke, community ran servers hurt nobody but the people paying for them outnof their own pockets. The games are already well past their shelf life and we simply want to play with others like us.
@random_bit3 ай бұрын
@@bagelbear69 I don't play CS, but I do have a problem with the average (excuse me, below average) programmer assuming that newer games -> better. I'm a Computer Engineer, I don't do games, but I could if I wanted to. I'm not even saying Theo is wrong about forcing software support, I agree with him. I just find his videogame takes to be abominable. Single player games are slowly dying and it is tied directly to this tethering and licensing stranglehold that AAA companies are enforcing. Checkout SOG's discussion surrounding Cyberpunk 2077 on release for Consoles and how those discs are unusable after PSN/Xbox Store stop supporting the consoles. Just because you're an illiterate ignorant doesn't mean gamers don't have a real concern.
@Edheldui3 ай бұрын
@@bagelbear69 Yeah because retrogaming isn't a thing, right? Being disingenuos isn't gonna help your cause.
@CottidaeSEA3 ай бұрын
@@bagelbear69Ever played a singleplayer game or a game released before 2005? You sound stupid. Besides, in the case of Counter-Strike, the community creates all sorts of maps and mods to it. Even if the core game was left as-is, there'd still be more community content available. CS2 is a downgrade in my opinion and it is shared by every single person I know who has played CS:GO and CS2. It was received rather positively because it shows promise, not because it's better.
@elmonke61543 ай бұрын
Yeah I don't understand how you can enjoy games while simultaneously not understanding why anybody would ever want to play on an older version? I mean especially now where multiplayer games drastically change between updates, so content is completely changed or lost, it's hard not to understand. I typically avoid games that this would apply to and can completely get it.
@jwueller3 ай бұрын
@@bagelbear69 You would know if you read the entire sentence.
@BrovarSpirytus3 ай бұрын
lmao "entitlement of gamers". how dare the consumers who bought the product expect to be able to use it! you already lost the debate when you resort to using words like that
@Grzelopak3 ай бұрын
he is angry. no one can make comprehensive arguments uder stress. he should sleep on it at least before making vids like this. but than again it is his right to do so...
@yellowface63143 ай бұрын
Very true. Us consumers who have paid for a product should not be allowed to keep it. Very entitled we are
@ShadowFalcon2 ай бұрын
@@Grzelopak So what? I'm angry that I'm being scammed out of products I bought and paid for.
@Zionswasd23 күн бұрын
@@Grzelopak "no one can make comprehensive arguments under stress"? Really???
@_DATA_EXPUNGED_3 ай бұрын
European semi-Indie dev (30 employees, publisher small enough to pretty much count as "indie" themselves) here, also worked with noyb's precursor in the past. Everything I'm saying also applies to most software and is all about ownership, not "entitlement". I don't see gamedevs targeted primarily here, the problem are the publishers and their legal departments, not the devs themselves. You're either misunderstanding or deliberately misrepresenting the whole thing. I don't agree with much of the particular wording of the petition, but I do agree with the ideas behind it. Ownership and honesty. Whenever somebody thinks they have "the truth", it's usually just a lack of knowledge of internal laws, customs, culture, ... The thing is, ToS and License agreements are legally close to worthless when selling to regular (non-corporation) customers in most non-US-countries. They're literally just very expensive toilet paper, I haven't seen _any_ non-standard terms hold up in any german court in recent decades. Not a single one. The people buy a game, expect to be able to buy it in the future, game is gone and they can't even resell it, which is a fundamental right in the EU. Usually with a Multi-Billion penny-pinching corporation behind it. Right now, it's getting so ridiculous, there is serious momentum to look at all those software EULAs which are incompatible with European law and get the regulators involved. Finally. Instead of getting angry, try acknowledging that different perspectives exist, and usually not just because of "entitlement". This isn't about entitlement, at all. It's about honesty and management of expectations. If you can only keep playing or using the software if the publisher doesn't shut it down in a few months, that's something you should put as a warning on the label. Then everybody can make an informed decision and it's fine. But rugpulling stuff away from people is just awful. And it doesn't matter if those are games, software or whatever. And I guess everybody disagreeing with you magically isn't a gamedev anymore? People just want to actually own the things they buy. Though you of course are a rentseeker and subscription-connoisseur yourself, looking at your amazon reselling business. Which makes this whole ideology a fundamental threat to your financial stability and your whole discussion rather pointless.
@Lucaboox3 ай бұрын
if anything his entitlement completely showed in this video....
@SamWulfign3 ай бұрын
Absolutely feel this 100% with you, and the ignorance of the Americans honestly shows more and more even if they seem remotely intellectual. He and his friends have a vested conflict of interest here, they are angry because they become at risk of their livelihoods which to be fair I can understand being angry about that. But being antagonistic to their potential/existing customers because they disagree with them is absolutely not the way. Alot of the EULA's if you went through them with a fine tooth comb actually are incompatible with many countries consumer protection or even antitrust laws to begin with, I.E Adobe. They're angry because their bet that they could continue this business model without any scrutiny now has a deadline. And you know what, they say vote with your wallet, I'm voting with mine and won't touch any products they create if I'm aware of it. Not out of spite, but I refuse to support people who would be against ownership and even dissuade regulation making that more clear. Just like Theo did with Adobe over creative rights.
@NTR-Impact3 ай бұрын
Let's say Google goes out of business, are you going to ask for the server binaries so you could run and host Google Drive on your private server?
@Lucaboox3 ай бұрын
@@NTR-Impact completely irrelevant conversation you don't pay a one time price for Google Drive or Google , please just use your head when making up random examples
@finite-void3 ай бұрын
What are you even disagreeing about then? Did you even watch Pirate's videos? That was his whole take as well. Instead of forcing devs to do extra work, let users make a more informed choice. That there should be more transparency in the matter. You can't just take this whole video out of prerequisite context. No one here is against such transparency.
@ThatGamerBro3 ай бұрын
4:34 "The average thing a gamer says about a game dev is either mean, or wrong, or both." Generalizations like this should absolutely tank your credibility. Either you are hyperfixating on the most toxic parts of the gaming industry or you are just flat out lying. Valve, Rockstar, CDPR, id, Larian, and FromSoft are almost universally praised to name a few. It has nothing to do with the gaming community and everything to do with which devs have been screwing over their playerbases for years without any consumer protections.
@finite-void3 ай бұрын
Gods, I hate the fact that someone is making me take Ubisoft's side in an argument. If you think Ubisoft is the bad guy for not relicensing 100s of cars (which could be multiple millions of dollars) for 90 active players after 10 years of continued service, then your entitlement and understanding of fairness, economy, are disgustingly out of pocket. $60 may seem a lot to you, but it really is not. On an individual level, that game has provided more than enough value to anyone who bought it.
@crow98363 ай бұрын
@@finite-voidThis a response of someone who's done no critical thinking.
@finite-void3 ай бұрын
@@crow9836 Says the one who uses a personal insult to reply to a logical argument with real world issue. If you don't have something meaningful to add to conversation, just don't say anything.
@Exerosp3 ай бұрын
@@finite-void It's not an insult though, he was dismantling your argument by saying it lacked critical thinking. His comment was directed at the comment you made, not you as a person, otherwise the first few words wouldn't have been "This is a response of" rather "You sound like someone". People are shitting on Ubishit for making your game unable to be played, rather than just letting you play the patch that the games were licensed on. No game dev has to relicense products for a project where the license was covered, only if they want to re-release a patch or update it.
@kloudray3 ай бұрын
@@finite-voidWhy would we as consumers care in any way about ubisoft's licensing or other issues? If it's a thing you bought, you own it and should be able to use it. They knew their licensing agreements when they were releasing the game, so they knew they would discontinue the services at a later date; in such cases it should be called a lease or rent, it is just not a purchase. Yet it is presented is a purchase, which is the main issue people have with it.
@SaltyFrenchFries3 ай бұрын
I'm glad that theo is full mask off with this. With thor, he had some points worth talking about but theo just immediately calls everyone entitled for wanting to keep their products. There's not even a need to debate this with him, he's fully drank the koolaid.
@acuteaura3 ай бұрын
ah, the US techbro hivemind opinion, can y'all grow some differentiated views and stop strawmanning the shit out of the arguments as if all these problems are unsolvable and it's okay to have an entire class of art be left for dead in the long run because it doesn't bring in money for shareholders anymore?
@sidma64883 ай бұрын
It's amazing how people accuse people of strawmanning and then then immediately strawmans them. "Yeah, fuck the tech bro hivemind. I'm gamer bro hivemind all the way!" 😂 Maybe YOU should grow some differentiated views and realize that the initiative has many legal, logistical and technical problems for many projects. Some games would help from a legislation like this, but they are explicitly calling this for ALL games, which is a problem. This will become a problem for both AAA and indie devs.
@attenberg3 ай бұрын
If Americans want us to hate them even more, then this is fine. What a greedy and senseless populace.
@PaladinCaddy3 ай бұрын
oh no.... people share the same view point, and it's not your view point, they must be the worst people on the planet.
@TheGalacticVoid3 ай бұрын
@sidma6488 The alternative to dealing with those problems (the same ones that many devs already deal with) is to have consumers get their purchased games vanish and for monumental pieces of art to vanish. If this were about Adobe remotely disabling purchased copies of CS6 etc. I don't think that Thor would be complaining nearly as much. Furthermore, I've yet to see a response to the fact that old games were able to publish self-hosted servers with no issues.
@schtormm3 ай бұрын
not to be a fencesitter but do you really think this guy is the equivalent of a damn exec at a publisher?? most of these incredibly shit decisions come from the top, not from some guy getting paid to make the games
@walber333 ай бұрын
"...it got upgraded and you insisted on playing the old version, stupid..." oof what a bad take, and if people prefer the old version? thats awesome that people can spin up a dedicated server and play a "old" game.
@Flyon863 ай бұрын
It's 100% on the devs/publisher to make a compelling reason for you to play the new version of a game. If they can't make something better than they did in 2016 or whenever with 2024 technology that speaks more to the lack of quality of their work than anything.
@walber333 ай бұрын
@@Flyon86 lol, no! People have various reasons to stick to a "old" game
@Flyon863 ай бұрын
@@walber33 Yeah, there can be a lot of reasons. Maybe as simple as the new game has higher specs and your PC can't run it well. My point was that devs need to add enough to a new version of the game that it's worth the user spending money on it. If they can't offer enough value for a user to spend money on the new version that's their problem. Bricking the old version of the game is just ridiculous. That's like Chevy bricking older models of cars when the new version comes out.
@krazymeanie3 ай бұрын
This coming from a software developer baffles me.
@acuteaura3 ай бұрын
the continued popularity of 1.6 during the CSS and early CSGO era is all the proof one would need.
@Krasshirsch3 ай бұрын
Everything you said was wrong. You seem to be under the impression that a game dev should have the right to screw over it's player base, simply by hiding behind the word license, instead of good. This is equivalent buying a car which gets repo'ed after 3 years because the seller simply stated the transaction to be a license, not a good. World of Warcraft is a Service, it is clearly stated on the packaging, at least it was when I bought it, that this requires a monthly fee, like Netflix. This type of service is exempt from the Initiative as it is clearly marketed as such. The crew was sold for 60 -100 USD and was marketed as an online only game, not a service. I still have Internet, I should be able to play it, but I can't and that is the problem. A game should not suddenly stop being a good, just because there is a portion of it that runs on a server.
@cppgod35273 ай бұрын
What do you suggest then? Are you expecting devs to be 85 years old in their deathbeds and still be paying for servers? Please.
@Krasshirsch3 ай бұрын
@@cppgod3527 Another one who hasn't read the Initiative and is just attacking strawmen. That solution to run servers forever is requested exactly NOWHERE in the initiative.
@tablettablete1863 ай бұрын
@@cppgod3527I just here thinking, it must be really hard to maintain the servers of original DOOM, such an old game. Or CSGO.
@uis2463 ай бұрын
Game studio, not game dev. Game devs are constantly laid off.
@zereimu3 ай бұрын
Not gamedevs, publishers, gamedevs generally agree with game preservation.
@SirJesticles3 ай бұрын
Your pinned comment says "I’ve had a surprising number of game devs reach out privately to thank me for making this. I have not heard from a single game dev who disagrees." but I don't think you realize the implication of what you said. You just inadvertently admitted that developers cannot be trusted to self-regulate when it comes to the issue of game preservation thereby making government intervention inevitable and necessary. Congratulations.
@BBR2013 ай бұрын
"government intervention inevitable and necessary" I move that we delete the internet and solve the problem completely, no online services no more problems, no more silly artificial internet debates and meme battles that serve zero purpose and benefit for the society.
@Harvest1332 ай бұрын
@@BBR201 And yet you are here, flapping your useless tongue saying useless words on a supposely useless comment thread. Good job. You played yourself.
@xyzabc123-o1l7 күн бұрын
i am a "game developer", and agree with what you said. 99.9999% of "game developers" are trash and have no idea what they're doing. it is trivial to release binaries and source code as a way of keeping games alive and protecting the money spent on titles. KZbin tech influencers are legitimately unskilled, anxious, and totally in the wrong on this issue.
@stratos77553 ай бұрын
Gamers: want to play the game they paid for Theo: entilted brats
@illpunchyouintheface9094Ай бұрын
“They want to own the things they paid for? How dare they!” - Theo
@violinsbeesthings39303 ай бұрын
I just want to be able to play "The Crew", a singleplayer game I had in my library and can now no longer play because it was "live service" multiplayer. No it wasn't. It even has an offline mode built into it that the developers could just turn on. Go back to how games worked in the 90's. Let me figure out my own support and stop gatekeeping what I paid for.
@jadedplover18513 ай бұрын
Bro there were literally 2 concurrent average players for the 3 months before it got declared as shutting down, unless you are one of those 2 players stfu lmao The amount of devs probably working on maintaining the games was higher than the number of people playing it
@yur1x0nly3 ай бұрын
Yes this should be Europe wide for ALL fame devs (many of which cannot pay rent) and force ALL devs to spend 5-75% more dev time time making their game compliant with the law so 3 people can play it a decade later and satisfy your personal wish. You telling me you’d play more than 5 hours a month playing more than 1 of your old games for this? And there are just soooo many people exactly like you that game devs deserve to be legally obligated for every single game they sell? And launch has to be perfect too? And cosmetics and consumables and DLC has to be cheaper and bigger? You want fries with that too? Man, aggressive or no, you guys are gonna kill people on your principle of gamer rights. You think game devs are olympian sprinters? Since the beginning it’s been 80 hour crunches to complete the game in fewer years. Most of them buy rent and weed of off of tiny itch io stores and work at the 711 for years before they try make it “big” in an entry level at Ubisoft still paying their student loans at 35. You telling me all xMil dev is have to do it for every single of the x hundred thousand games that come out every year? so you can play tf2 and the other 5 games that made it in your nursing home? over the other 5milion games that will come out during that time? No one will ever make a better game ever, you sure of that? Did you not see that talk about his time at Blizzard? Is it not glaringly obvious how overworked devs are already ? You think you’re super totally owning big software and all the corporate heads with this legal missile? Watch where you point it. Dream all you want. Touch some grass, graduate, get a job and you’ll see. Try game dev if you dare. lets see how many books you swallow, systems and stupid bugs you rewrite, sry? worldbuildjg? playtesting? selling the game? Marketing? Benign profitable enough to eat? hours you spend day and night building, without reaching for the twitter feed? living a life? FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS AND COMMUNITY? (know nun bout that) LIFE AND WELLBEING OUTSIDE THE SCREEN? All at the same time… When was the last time you did your laundry anon ? . I’m sure it’s just a skill issue and you’ll launch the best most immersive most real MMO ever in a summer break. Maintain it for the next 20 years of your life, knowing that if you don’t the feds will be in your toes for not keeping your commitment to the 20 [BAJILLION LMAO] people still playing your game a decade, two, five, 20, later. After that, i wanna see you smile! :D
@OutsiderLabs3 ай бұрын
@@jadedplover1851He was one of those players, so what's your point?
@Krasshirsch3 ай бұрын
@@yur1x0nly Yes, 75% more development time to not call the server and provide a local one as a fall back. Especially those who build single player games, the starving solo ones you are talking about, that have to do nothing, because there is no server in 99% cases ...
@BrovarSpirytus3 ай бұрын
@@jadedplover1851 what kind of logic is that? he paid for the game, purchased it so he should be play it whenever he wants, whether it be now or 10 years later
@notfunnydidntlaugh86213 ай бұрын
Theo, your coverage on this has been a net negative to the whole situation. You, personally, are the best PR that Stop Killing Games could ever have. All this immature behavior (the bitterness, ad-hominem attacks, cherry picking and focus on comments instead of videos) only hurts you and your side. Thanks for encouraging MORE people to sign the petition, including me!
@animeproblem10703 ай бұрын
You're entitled to my middle finger you can have my respect when you care about the customers rights
@yellowface63143 ай бұрын
“Customer rights? Never heard of it” - Theo
@yore53 ай бұрын
@@yellowface6314 Your definition of customer rights is such an insane ask for developers. But you wouldn't know that because your head is EMPTY
@-Pedry3 ай бұрын
As a game dev.... This theo guy pissses me off 😂 I need to eat my morning eggs now before i start boiling too...
@Kulze3 ай бұрын
Thanks, clear and direct words. Exactly that.
@TheSuperBoyProject3 ай бұрын
Pretty difficult for him to care about customer rights when he's a seller
@Descent0983 ай бұрын
9:00 It's exactly the opposite. People know what a license is, and are largely sick of it, exactly like you were with adobe. This is also why things like article 20 of the GDPR exist. All of the examples of other services you provide are also 1. not individual copies of content, and 2. not sole providers. If netflix charged $10 to watch a show, then yeah they should be obligated to keep that show up, especially if they called it a "purchase" and not a rental. For sole providers, if netflix pulls a show you can still purchase it elsewhere to own. If a company pulls the game servers there are no other providers. Even this would be potentially not an issue, but companies will also often take down people who are trying to provide the same service for free. Personally I've just gotten to the point now where my best middle ground is that companies should not be allowed to stop anyone from reverse engineering and keeping servers up and running themselves, similar to plutonium for CoD.
@eatyboy43243 ай бұрын
If SKG was focused on "singleplayer" games that require a server to work, then I (and I'd assume Theo and Thor) would accept this argument. However, forcing developers to make live-service games playable after their sunset is an entirely different ball game. Live-service games obviously need a server, so it's impossible to sell them as anything other than a license or a subscription.
@rufuspilula2473 ай бұрын
If Netflix charged $10 per show, they shouldn't be obligated to keep a show up at the end of service. How would they do it when the service is dead, you know? But, they should be obligated to let you download everything you paid for imo. Some streaming services which failed opted for this approach, but most don't. In fact, I think Valve at some point stated that if they kill Steam they'd let people download their whole libraries for a few months.
@uis2463 ай бұрын
I think you comment can be extended into another point: if publishers(not game developers) are only ones who can host server, then they should be recognized as monopoly.
@jwueller3 ай бұрын
@@rufuspilula247 Downloads would be the answer. If you shut down, offer everything people bought to download, DRM-free
@stratos77553 ай бұрын
You can reverse engineer whatever you want in EU (or at least in Czech Republic) , so that's that.
@somenameidk52783 ай бұрын
I don't think the comparison with Netflix or Spotify is completely fair. Those are subscription all-you-can-eat services where the expectation is that access stops when you stop paying. If a website where you could buy albums to stream shut down without giving you the ability to download the potentially hundreds of dollars of music you "purchased", i think people would be pretty mad too.
@CottidaeSEA3 ай бұрын
With a subscription service you also already have the expectation that you have access to what's on there at any given moment, which may change over time. It's a very different expectation and a completely different deal.
@schtormm3 ай бұрын
Not to be pedantic but technically even on Steam you are buying a license to sorta "borrow" the game from them, you're not acutally buying the game like when you would buy physical games in the past
@burntxela12583 ай бұрын
@@schtormmtrue but compared to most of the digital market, when a game on steam becomes delisted & you purchased said game you can still redownload it whenever you want
@CottidaeSEA3 ай бұрын
@@schtormm The problem is that wording. It says you buy a game. As long as you have it installed you can play it even with Steam in offline mode. Downloading is another story, but that is the expectation, that if Steam goes to the grave, you'll no longer be able to download them. That's fine. Steam already has you covered with the offline mode after all. That's more than what can be said about their competitors.
@chinesesparrows3 ай бұрын
@somenameidk5278 hmm and a "all you can eat service" to one game is supposedly different? Looks like the same license to me.
@420beffjezos3 ай бұрын
Ross's comment on that video, which was deleted by pirate software: "I'll just leave some points on this: -I'm afraid you're misunderstanding several parts of our initiative. We want as many games as possible to be left in some playable state upon shutdown, not just specifically targeted ones. The Crew was just a convenient example to take action on, it represents hundreds of games that have already been destroyed in a similar manner and hundreds more "at risk" of being destroyed. We're not looking at the advertising being the primary bad practice, but the preventable destruction of videogames themselves. -This isn't about killing live service games (quite the opposite!), it's primarily about mandating future live service games have an end of life plan from the design phase onward. For existing games, that gets much more complicated, I plan to have a video on that later. So live service games could continue operating in the future same as now, except when they shutdown, they would be handled similarly to Knockout City, Gran Turismo Sport, Scrolls, Ryzom, Astonia, etc. as opposed to leaving the customer with absolutely nothing. -A key component is how the game is sold and conveyed to the player. Goods are generally sold as one time purchases and you can keep them indefinitely. Services are generally sold with a clearly stated expiration date. Most "Live service" games do neither of these. They are often sold as a one-time purchase with no statement whatsoever about the duration, so customers can't make an informed decision, it's gambling how long the game lasts. Other industries would face legal charges for operating this way. This could likely be running afoul of EU law even without the ECI, that's being tested. -The EU has laws on EULAs that ban unfair or one-sided terms. MANY existing game EULAs likely violate those. Plus, you can put anything in a EULA. The idea here is to take removal of individual ownership of a game off the table entirely. -We're not making a distinction between preservation of multiplayer and single player and neither does the law. We fail to find reasons why a 4v4 arena game like Nosgoth should be destroyed permanently when it shuts down other than it being deliberately designed that way with no recourse for the customer. -As for the reasons why I think this initiative could pass, that's my cynicism bleeding though. I think what we're doing is pushing a good cause that would benefit millions of people through an imperfect system where petty factors of politicians could be a large part of what determines its success or not. Democracy can be a messy process and I was acknowledging that. I'm not championing these flawed factors, but rather saying I think our odds are decent. Finally, while your earlier comments towards me were far from civil, I don't wish you any ill will, nor do I encourage anyone to harass you. I and others still absolutely disagree with you on the necessity of saving games, but I wanted to be clear causing you trouble is not something I nor the campaign seeks at all. Personally, I think you made your stance clear, you're not going to change your mind, so people should stop bothering you about it."
@NavoNova3 ай бұрын
This really should be the only thing posted as comments on these videos. If Ross' main arguments are being deleted (and the fact that all of these are so maliciously interpreted within the videos) by these guys or their mods in order to shut down the conversation, then they'd have to eventually turn comments off - showing their true colours.
@uhohstinky1483 ай бұрын
@@NavoNova My guess is they don't want to engage because of the part about taking individual user license revocation out of EULA. I believe Thor has said this would remove the developer's ability to ban cheaters.
@NavoNova3 ай бұрын
@@uhohstinky148 I think the idea that any new law that would allow cheats, bots and other malicious practices to run rampant based on this initiative would pass is obviously ludicrous. Especially in this climate (see social media and current EU initiatives and discussions on that front). Not to mention, which has already been pointed out many times by others, there would be immense lobbying from the games industry in any case. Remember this is a pro consumer initiative.
@420beffjezos3 ай бұрын
Pirate Software even deleted his own comment under this video after people piled on. What a clown lol.
@rufuspilula2473 ай бұрын
"building a binary that's self-hostable is not a thing you can do easily" I guess every developer was a wizard 10+ years ago? I know servers for some games are much more complex nowadays, but if EU ever made a law for this you'd have plenty of time to figure out how to structure your backend on new projects so that you can take only what's "essential" and ship it to the customer when you shut down the service. EU laws are never retroactive, games which are in development before any law is made would be exempt from all this. "bad actors can DDoS your game to strain your resources, then take your server code and make a profit" 1. It's illegal to sabotage other businesses this way 2. If everyone can make their own server, then it's difficult for 1 server to make all the profit 3. What's stopping other people from doing the same to them, thus always being in a cycle of not having any profit? 4. Seems like you're implying source code access will be required, which isn't true "CS GO 2 is an upgrade" For many people it's not because it demands much better hardware and has slightly different game mechanics. Besides, the commenter was right, it's a good example of a game still being playable even if services are down. "at any point Netflix and Spotify can pull their service and you don't care" Completely false. People would lose their shit. And they did when something similar happened with a movie service recently. "you haven't played a game in 8 years and it gets pulled, why get mad" Because playing an old game you grew up with is one of the best feelings ever. If I couldn't play games released before 2004 or even before 2014 I'd lose my shit because I mostly play games that old. Yes, sometimes I haven't played a game in 10 or 15 years, but I like knowing that I can always play, let's say Crash Bandicoot 2, because I either still own the physical disc or I've made a backup. No company can come to my home and destroy my property/data. With service-only games you have no such luxury, your client is useless because you haven't been provided a part of the game which makes it functional. "companies have to pay license fees" No they don't, they wouldn't be hosting the service nor distributing games. Rockstar doesn't have to pay license fees for my PS2 version of GTA San Andreas, nor do they have to pay a fee just because I play the PC version on private/community servers. "gamers are wrong, developers are right" Absolutely incorrect here. The customer is always right, in a way. You can't force customers to accept/buy your product ("service") as-is if they feel like it's not acceptable. You're simply lucky most people don't care about owning anything (until it bites them in the ass), but a massive amount of people prefer buying DRM-free games and playing games that are not a live service. That's why they don't buy into these kinds of games in the first place. If companies get forced into making their games playable when the service is abandoned, there's a good chance even more people will actually buy the games. The main reason I bought WoW almost 20 years ago was because I knew I could always host my own server. And I still play WotLK because of that. Same with Rocket League, even though it got pulled out of Steam it's still playable and is playable offline, with split screen and over LAN. "we don't solve the problem by making lives harder for game devs, we solve by communicating" That's exactly what this is. It's an initiative to start an official conversation. We've had unofficial conversations for a decade now and nobody has done anything about this issue. And you'll simply have to accept that you will have to either do some extra work, or re-think how you structure projects. This happened with every pro-consumer legislation. Do you think Apple didn't have to do some extra work when they had to design phones with USB-C and open up to 3rd party app stores?
@thefervidactor85293 ай бұрын
Exactly. 15+ years ago when I bought a game I didn’t have to ever worry about not having access to it one day. What changed? What about the countries with poor internet connectivity(mine) where the service is so bad you don’t bother playing online games. In that case I only buy the game for the single player content. Why does it need to connect to a server? How was it that pretty much every online game back then is still playable today years or even a decade after the official servers shut down. When I buy something, I wanna be able to do what I want with it(unless it’s something that affects the online experience that isn’t accepted).
@infoverflow55593 ай бұрын
What I've seen people do is they say what they think is correct and completely miss the part that it's not written like that in the initiative. Yes, we want to be able to play games or even have ability to self host them, have backend binaries available or at least not illegal to recreate them (which is absolutely insane to do but whatever). I agree most of the things but the argument is that the initiative doesn't say that like that. And you cannot put ALL games into a single bucket, some games are really like netflilx, MMOs for example. Some devs create live events and have massive metanarative going on that requires constant work and server cost on top of that. There are types of games that you literally cannot experience like it was when they went live, or when a new expansion came out, when one thing was not nerfed, etc. and that is fine, that's the beauty of it. Technically it's possible to recreate all of it but then you have to start from scratch, might as well make another game. What most peope are mad about are not these games, it's shitty singleplayer games that have live service built in only to enforce their predatory monetization scheme and make sure that player doesn't maintain some in game currency by other means. The initiative should focus on this. Yes the customer is aways right, that's why they spend so much money and time on those live service singleplayer games lol. I wish I could just delete all gacha games but you know it's not going anywhere, just like casinos aren't, we could make it so that it's restricted to adults only but if you restrict everything what you end up is nothing. And I don't care what some adult spends their money on, if you are adult you should have right to play all the gachas you want, I don't care, I will just really judge you and dislike your behaviour.
@peculiarnewbie3 ай бұрын
you wouldn't guess what theo think about the usb-c situation
@huks93803 ай бұрын
One of the best comments I've seen on this so far.
@felixallistar3 ай бұрын
NO ONES FORCING YOU TO BUY ANYTHING. you cant buy it then complain later. yeah most multiplayer providers are third party SaaS and its not built into the game to have singleplayer because thats almost another 50% of work. no one wants to pay more, no one wants to pay for non-major IP singleplayer games, but now suddenly you want to alter the rules after you paid for it. if you bought a Ubisoft game and Ubisoft does a Ubisoft thing, thats your fault lmao.
@uis2463 ай бұрын
You are not protecting developers, you are protecting publishers. Live service is not a genre, it is buisness model.
@GordonChil3 ай бұрын
Dang punlishers. Slinging puns like Jesse Pinkman does crystal.
@uis2463 ай бұрын
@@GordonChil fixed
@ronny5843 ай бұрын
"Company bad, must hate them" duurrr
@Ornithopter4703 ай бұрын
At what point does a company get to stop putting money into maintaining an auth server so DRM can work?
@vojtechbouda93503 ай бұрын
@@Ornithopter470 Just allow players to host their own servers, or build future games with offline mode in mind.
@ttrev0073 ай бұрын
i think that companies should be required to disclose an end of life plan for every game. Will you be able to play the game without support? will they release code or the servers when they end support? etc. and then normalize reviewers sharing the end of life plan. i just believe we need to inform consumers.
@tevomato62373 ай бұрын
7:32 I actually can not tell if this video is sarcasm or not. I dont think I have ever had someone try to exclaim that having the ability to use older versions of software is bad, or in this case, claiming that wanting to play an older version of a game is "stupid". I guess the easiest counter to this point would be warcraft 3 reforged. That was apparently an "update". Would you argue in favor of that update and say that people who wanted to play the older version were stupid?
@Nickname8633 ай бұрын
I think he is very serious
@Eagledelta33 ай бұрын
One correction - God of War: Ragnarok (PC version) will require an always online PSN account to play it on PC. I believe Thor even addresses that game (maybe not in the video, but he did on stream)
@None383893 ай бұрын
Thor also heavily criticized what sony is doing on his stream.
@jadedplover18513 ай бұрын
I play it offline already
@ceticobr3 ай бұрын
@@None38389The hipocrisy
@weskerwewe3 ай бұрын
Ah yes it is gamers that are entitled. Not the game devs/publishers that remove ownership from the consumers, try to dictate the market as opposed to consumers, advertise fake gameplay to get pre order money in before the games even finished, can release a product incomplete/buggy at full price with most large platforms not allowing refunds and then get annoyed when consumers take issue with that, have the ability to walk back on future content commitments/improvements even when the game was successful, remove features that were once standard and sell them back to you at ridiculous prices, ban players with no real way of appeal, give no compensation when the product is not available, can kill a game by ignoring community feedback just because "devs knows whats best for games", devs who refuse to allow for legitimate ways to purchase old games just because reasons, devs that have asserted their own personal politics onto other cultures (see spiderman 2 language change for example) The list goes on and on and on. The industry has had unlimited chances to self regulate and look where we are. You had yer chance now consumers are making their voices heard. You dont exist without us buying your products something every other industry knows but devs seem to think they are an exception
@Shamino13 ай бұрын
Can someone let me know what company this gentleman works for so I can make sure not to purchase any of their software? Thanks.
@CrazyPCgamercatguyАй бұрын
I question the same thing myself. He's not getting my money. Anyone know?
@Bot-mv9qb3 ай бұрын
As a game developer myself, I find it hilarious that you accuse gamers for acting entitled when you and PS act as if you're talking for all game developers. Climb off your high horse will ya! I support the Stop Killing Games initiative a 100%. This narrative that developers can only talk through the mouthpiece of "fearless developers" is such a bogus claim. If you've got opinions you need to keep anonymous, you make an alternate account. You, sir, perpetuate the kind of rhetoric that causes a lot of people to genuinly believe that most game developers hate gamers, which is ridiculous! And how are you guys still using TF2 as an example? That game survived because of private servers! Clearly TF2 proved that private servers are not just good for the game at EoL, but also for games that are still live.
@sidma64883 ай бұрын
If you are actually a game developer, don't hide behind a comment and put reputation on the line, just like PS and Theo did. As long as you don't do that, your words are meaningless.
@TheFrontmanRocker3 ай бұрын
@@sidma6488 He just did lol
@finite-void3 ай бұрын
Making alts means u have 0 credibility and I'm less likely to believe u. Just like u. I don't believe ur a game dev unless u put ur face or pen name to it.
@myrealname70523 ай бұрын
@@sidma6488 Plenty of named devs have come forth in support. Just go ask RunningWithScissors, a studio that has made multiple games since 1996 and founder has done so since 1980. PS and Theo are, to my knowledge, so far quite outnumbered by devs that have come publically come out in support of the initiative. And outdone both in seniority and in game output.
@yore53 ай бұрын
Fake comment
@Tyrian3k3 ай бұрын
"Hey fellow gamers!" Followed by "Listen up you entitled assholes!" Yea, not gonna bother with whatever you might have to say if you can't even bother *not* insulting the people you're trying to convince.
@penguinjay3 ай бұрын
he looks like a chester
@khealer2 ай бұрын
Every. Single. Time!
@davidg21353 ай бұрын
Developers and publishers have created these problems. And consumers are final doing something about it. How about come to the table and find a middle ground, a give snd take. But no, you expect consumers to just take it. Good look on the name calling, mask off as Thor said.
@marekvrbka3 ай бұрын
Gamers want to play the games they paid for: Entitled brats
@NTR-Impact3 ай бұрын
Let's say Google goes out of business, do you think you're entitled for the server binaries so you could run and host Google Drive on a private server?
@ethanogle6983 ай бұрын
@@NTR-Impact That's assuming that Google would axe all user data without giving them time to migrate said data off the platform, there's no need to host a private server if there are other services that offer data storage but games aren't interchangeable like that, that's like telling someone to watch Starwars instead of Startrek, they're similar but not the same and idk about you but I don't go to GD for entertainment nor have I seen pop culture influenced by it the same way games affect people.
@mrkillerovsky3 ай бұрын
@@NTR-Impact If Google was an app and you paid for it, without prior knowledge of the date it gets shut down like that, yes.
@krux023 ай бұрын
@@NTR-Impact Google is actually shutting down lots of services left and right. That's actually a big problem for many people who actually depended on these services to function. Someone should do something about it.
@juanrollel36933 ай бұрын
@@krux02 and those are....
@drakkar16063 ай бұрын
It pleases me to know that for once, we have the possibility (however slim it is) to decide how games should be. I'll be signing soon.
@pokefreak21123 ай бұрын
That DDoS hypothetical is totally ridiculous. Not only is there no evidence that something like that would actually happen, this initiative is also about games that were *purchased by the consumer* not about live service games. So even if the dev takes the official servers offline they still make money if the game becomes popular because people will need to buy copies from them. This wouldn't affect 99% of indies because: 1) most indie games are singleplayer 2) most multiplayer indie games are community hosted already, or use steamworks for multiplayer It's really only the megacorps that will need to rethink their backend architecture, and they have to money to spend.
@Ornithopter4703 ай бұрын
Software purchases have never conveyed "ownership". You have never owned a video game. The game isn't the disc, it's the data on it. The data is the intellectual property of the creator. Same as a book. You bought the book, you own a block of paper with words on it, but don't actually own the content. You can do whatever you want with your copy of a book. Software, you can't. Because the DMCA is a terrible piece of legislation.
@Zeragamba3 ай бұрын
the modding communities would like to dispute that. Even if there isn't official support for mods, the communities find a way
@tablettablete1863 ай бұрын
Most indies games that I have even use p2p to not need to host a server. Deep Rock Galactic for instance
@benvictim3 ай бұрын
@@Ornithopter470 in Europe, software has recent got a law made were it is a product being sold and not a licence to use a piece of software. Which is why this initiative has a chance of passing in the EU. It won't have a chance in the US.
@DaxSudo3 ай бұрын
... but it does... Theo literally has a video talking about how his company was DDos'd it happens all the time constantly. If u spend any time in the security space u will shit ur self when u realize how common, insecure and crazy it is. (and his company is like less than 5 full time people doing software stuff with maybe a few thousand daily active customers)
@smoothtura23753 ай бұрын
If bad take was a person
@yellowface63143 ай бұрын
Honestly this is beyond a bad take. It’s straight up malicious and hateful
@ff75223 ай бұрын
"Many devs reached out to me to thank me" is this some new copypasta? Nobody is reaching out to Thank you lmao
@darekpower3 ай бұрын
yeah, that comment made me think this whole thing was a parody or bit of some kind, but as I watched on, I slowly realized in horror that its not...
@buffhardback75953 ай бұрын
This guy has no friends... no one ever reached out to this loser in his whole life
@Edheldui3 ай бұрын
It's just him and thor reaching to each other to pretend they have support. But I'm sure there's also that weird twitter clique of weirdos "devs" who somehow take 3 years to make an asset flip walking simulator.
@sidma64883 ай бұрын
Braindead comment. He has a huge developer following. Why does he need lie about something like this?
@_DATA_EXPUNGED_3 ай бұрын
@@Edheldui Theo is in the rentseeking / "live service"-equivalent business and has an ego bloated enough he'd be able to start a balloon trip business. He's never going to criticize this basic profit model or admit legitimate points here, ever. Even if he has to make up people.
@Thezftw3 ай бұрын
If you don't play or didn't play Counter-Strike it's better you don't comment on the game being "upgraded", Theo. Makes you come out as incredibly arrogant.
@Keyshooter3 ай бұрын
damn, didn't had to scroll that far, thanks theo!
@ronny5843 ай бұрын
It is an upgrade, you might not like it but it is
@Hurbieo3 ай бұрын
Why are we talking about a mod that came out 20 some years ago?
@TimHoekstra3 ай бұрын
@@ronny584the upgrade that stripped out many features from the game only to reintroduce them later as 'new' features? Wow what an upgrade. This is the same shit windows is pulling with their OS nowadays.
@Thezftw3 ай бұрын
@@ronny584 It was broken beyond belief when they released it and they disabled matchmaking from GO at the same time. Great upgrade lol.
@mojorochi3 ай бұрын
7:35 You know nothing about videogames and their communities, right? You just called stupid, for example, those guys that keep having Smash bros melee tournaments 20 years later after it was published and after several new versions later
@FathDaniel3 ай бұрын
Man he should really upgrade to Warcraft 3 Reforged.
@chill898923 ай бұрын
@@FathDaniel It's an upgrade... It must be better, right? You'd be stupid for wanting to play the old version🤡
@4Clubs3 ай бұрын
I am utterly convinced that these people are publishing this kind of ragebait as some kind of reverse psychology ploy. Absolute silliness.
@seeibe3 ай бұрын
The first minute of the video gives it away. Just click bait/attention farming. It seems to go over their head that coming out firmly anti-consumer will have lasting impact on their credibility.
@alr21573 ай бұрын
you're not able to see where all this leads. And you only look where you want to look... Avatar from Ubisoft? Online only for install Star Wars from Ubisoft? Online only for install Gran Turismo 5 ? Online only etc.
@tablettablete1863 ай бұрын
Ghost Recon Breakpoint always-online
@gabrielsobrosa3 ай бұрын
The Crew 1, 2 and Motorfest, NFS 2015, Test Drive Unlimited Solar Crown
@snark5673 ай бұрын
He is able to see where this leads. He just doesn't care. People like him don't value games as art and just want to be able to take them away from you so you are forced to buy the new product.
@alr21573 ай бұрын
@@snark567 if that's the case we all should unsubscribe...
@snark5673 ай бұрын
@@alr2157 Was never subscribed to begin with.
@shadener83203 ай бұрын
Come on guys, we cant expect poor developers who get payed to make games functional after they are done with it. Its not like fans have been reverse engineering them just so they can be played in the future for free with none of the resources developers have
@uis2463 ай бұрын
Yeah. Entire argument of Thor excludes all regular devs that slave away in game studios and are being laid of constantly.
@gFamWeb3 ай бұрын
Yeah. And that kind of reverse-engineering is generally illegal. Look at what happened to Project M. Game companies just choose not to sue. Doesn't make it any more legal. The reverse-engineers don't have the proper licenses. And, as Theo mentioned, the developers may not either after so many years.
@uis2463 ай бұрын
@@gFamWeb reverse-engieneering is legal
@uis2463 ай бұрын
@@gFamWeb RE is in fact legal. Check all those emulators like wine and console emulators.
@Eltener1233 ай бұрын
I'm an engineer and use a lot of licensed software. The difference there is that businesses are upfront about the fact that it is simply a license and the duration for which it will last. If a company sold us a perpetual license then prevented us from accessing the service we would sue them into the ground. Game devs and artists in general are entitled. If you want to sell a product, its a product and consumer protections should exist :)
@MIKAEL2123453 ай бұрын
Thank you. We don't even need to analogize this to physical goods or services. Non-videogame software works just fine to show how insane game software EULAs are
@finite-void3 ай бұрын
No one is against more transparency. If you watched Pirate's videos, u'll see that he heavily advocates for that. You're literally on same side, then.
@Eltener1233 ай бұрын
@@finite-void not really. he thinks it's okay to make a perpetual license arbitrarily revocable just because a game's a live service
@ANDELE30253 ай бұрын
@@Eltener123 Technically there is also no such thing as a non-perpetual license with sales. Licenses arent commercial goods nor services, it is legally a promise not to sue for x/y/z clauses. In EU all products by default come with the by human rights and market regulation compliant basic non-commercial license no matter even if the buyer doesnt want it. Its why EU slapped Adobe over the head for trying to revoke access to sold goods and why adobe shifted to the packet only subscription deal, but cant revoke any of the past versions of PS, Illu or AE for example and outright ran off whe starting to lose claims to damages over cracked versions being run when the person rightfully owned the software. Best part is last year EU firmly stomped on the idea of digital goods sold, but then scamming/destroying property of the buyers that bought the goods by defining what is a digital service and that 99% of modern games (along with other digital goods) cant be rented nor leased unless they fulfil the requirement of any good to be rented/leased (the loss of posession of said good from the owner for the duration of the agreed upon term)
@Bokbind3 ай бұрын
Strawmen are bad arguments, Theo. This video misrepresents a lot of the SKG initiative.
@metropolis103 ай бұрын
All multiplayer games need Community Dedicated Servers and all Singleplayer games need offline mode. Offer additional centralized if you want to offer bigger player sizes. That's it. Live service is just DRM and mtx shovelware. People hold up niche cases as But But But when they are the rare exception not the rule, and companies are abusing this loophole to ruin games for consumers and they don't care if you don't buy as long as whales exist. Gov regs are made to fix this kind of issue.
@Bokbind3 ай бұрын
Let me rephrase this: Singleplayer games don't need online mode.
@TheFrontmanRocker3 ай бұрын
0:58 Interesting mentality, have you ever been a gaming journo by any chance? 1:12 "Game devs are pouring their lives into creative works" and would be happy to see them gone 'cause CEO said so? Nonsense; 2:20 I watched them already, and both as an IT guy and a gaming connoisseur I disagree with him completely; 3:26 Once you said that RDR2 works fine offline I instantly understood that you are either biased or simply not familiar with gaming at all despite whatever you're claiming. Go try playing RDR2 without R* launcher, maybe read some negative Steam reviews and figure out what they are talking about. Haven't played other games from the list, can't talk about them. Saw someone in the comments mentioned that GoW require an always online PSN account to play on PC, but these are not my words; 4:27 Maybe that's because gamers were shat on by gaming companies and gaming journalists for over a decade now? With overpriced MTX, with anti-consumer decisions, with lootboxes, battle passes, empty shells of video games like OW2 and such only made to suck money off beloved franchises, with calling gamers "-ists" at every possible moment, with blatant lies like AC Shadows or Skull and Bones? Idk how you can call yourself a gamer and not seeing this happening. Gamers didn't start this. But well, even in this video you are using the same rhetoric. Indie devs are being praised, exactly as you said, so your take is completely disingenuous; 4:50 So isn't building servers they way they are now. It's only a question of architecture, which will become a norm down the line. You are talking about building an app for 3 months, I doubt that modern devs develop complete server solutions faster only because they don't have to implement portability. Sure, it may take a year or two to adapt, but it will settle down. Also - who cares, your work is not more important than my rights; 5:20 Thor's take on bots is nothing but fearmongering. First of all, botting in this way is already illegal (I guess), and the law we want to propose doesn't make it legal, you'll have the same legal tools to counter it. Second, TF2 example is trash because (1) bots existed because of Valve's unwillingness to deal with them, gamers were asking them to do ANYTHING, but they abandoned it, (2) community servers already existed, and they were successful at dealing with bots without issues; 5:50 What a thin ice to walk on regarding these 30%; 6:06 Turns out, there's no top voted comment calling you an asshole, just people disagreeing and replying to you. Again, gaming journo mentality seeping all through you; 6:25 Fearmongering again, and wrong understanding of the proposed law; 8:20 Because people should be entitled to what they bought, and it's a fact. Software, hardware, cars, whatever; 8:56 License doesn't mean anything because it's just a made up thing, if the law says it's wrong, it will be changed in a heartbeat. And overall it's not an argument, because a particular license (or licensing as a whole in a way we discuss here) can easily be just trash, and should be combated; 9:01 And yet again, complete unawareness of the topic. Go read how PlayStation pulled down some movies, or how Netflix/Amazon changed their plans back and forth, and people did care. Your takes are misinformation at this point; 9:27 The issue with car licensing should also be fully reviewed. Once a product is released, it should not require repeated licensing, it's absurd. Same as when streamers or youtubers have to turn down the music in their games because turns out it's not original, how doesn't this practice sound nonsensical to you? Or as you put it, "are you fucking insane"? 9:55 Because devs distanced themselves from gamers for the sake of profits and privileges. And you now that everyone is talking about corporations, not indie devs, as indie devs are praised and always will be; 10:21 Another sip of this corpo juice; 10:25 What's funny, Thor himself had a short saying that ignoring microtransactions won't help fighting them. I am not buying AC Shadows, and many gamers won't, but it already earned millions if not billions from preorders made by people who barely know what a game is, tough luck; 10:39 Ubisoft, Rockstar, EA, Blizzard, they make billions on Steam, so I have to switch to let's say EGS to let them earn even because lmao? Somehow I doubt that more money there results in more salary for devs, maybe fight these practices instead? Your take only applies to indie devs, and again, indies are praised. And tbf I think successful indie devs can profit off Steam as much as from EGS or GOG, while unsuccessful won't profit on neither of these platforms; 11:10 Initiative is not a law, it's a topic to discuss, and if there will be another way which is exactly as successful at game preservation and improving consumer rights as what we propose - we'll be alright with that. Also, it won't make their lives harder; 11:22 Game devs already responded - and the whole "mtx online-always live service" environment we have nowadays is what they said, and what they were saying for 10-15-20 years now. This is their argument, now we got ours; 11:48 Calls gamers asshole, shits on them, saying they are "fucking insane", that they "are *the* issue in gaming" throughout the video, then says he know how toxic it'll be with a deep breath. What a hypocrite; I’ve had a surprising number of game devs reach out privately to thank me for making this. Source: trust me bro
@buffhardback75953 ай бұрын
There isn't a top comment calling this guy an asshole yet?... Disappoint....
@Rodoet0013 ай бұрын
This entire thing has been a weird 'mask off' sitiation for a surprisingly large amount of developers. We've often praies them and villified publishers, and while the latter often has grounds to be correct, maybe developers really aren't our friends either. Seems like a lot of them aren't much better, or at least compliant with, publishers and the current corporate philosophy in gaming. Especially if what he says is true about game devs reaching out to thank him.
@ZarHakkar3 ай бұрын
Man I miss LittleBigPlanet... No, what pisses me off as an entitled gamer about your friend Thor is that he's actively refused to engage in dialogue with the guy who's been dedicating the past decade of his life to the game preservation movement. Considering the momentum of the initiative so far, it's going to go through anyway. I think Thor's input is super valuable and important, and is needed to fairly shape the outcome of whatever legislature occurs from the initiative. Which again, it is an initiative, not the final product. To that end, I think the best thing for him to do is hop in a Discord call with Ross (Accursed Farms), Louis Rossman, Asmongold, and ThePrimeTime and hash things out until they're all on the same page. If it goes well everybody will be more informed and a lot less upset. ... Also also, I don't know if you come from a game dev background, but when it comes to game design it's commonly understood that players are often their own worst enemies. Extrapolate that out towards an understanding of human nature, and realize people do things like buy games from companies we hate all the time. Humans are silly irrational creatures, with things like habits and thought patterns and hopes and nostalgia. I have a long history with the word "entitled." Most of the time it was used to shut down my very valid feelings and opinions. I was called "entitled" for making full use of my various coping mechanisms, without which I would be constantly on the edge of breaking down from stress. I can't speak entirely for my peers, but I am exhausted from seeing things in the world slowly get worse and worse, and maybe those "entitled gamers" also use gaming as a coping mechanism to escape the woes of the world. Is it entitlement, or is something precious to them being threatened? The way Ross sold the initiative was that it would finally be a foothold in stopping things from the slow slide into shit. It was very effective and managed to give people with the doomer mentality some hope for once. And then Thor, knowingly or not, threatened that hope. He might be right, he might not. I don't know. But I understand 100% why he's gotten the backlash he did. And I know the best solution for him and literally everybody interested is to engage in that aforementioned dialogue. He doesn't like how the initiative appears now, but instead of rejecting it completely he should connect with the others involved and help shape it with his input.
@uis2463 ай бұрын
I have speculation why Thor is against any discussion. Because ECI is not even proposal to law, it is discussion starter. Proposal is yet to be written by EU Council. And even if this does get enough signatures and EU Council votes yes, instead of writing proposal it might say "Actually, you don't need it. Existing laws already cover this". And such scenario will have greater impact because then we don't have to wait few years for EU to pass it and another 5 years for law to come to power.
@ZarHakkar3 ай бұрын
@@uis246 The discussion is still useful because the major points that arise from a conversation between such large online figures could disseminate through their audiences into the general population and potentially influence the discussion in the EU council.
@chill898923 ай бұрын
I agree with your comment but saying he should talk to Asmongold made me laugh. And Theo is a web dev not a game dev
@ZarHakkar3 ай бұрын
@@chill89892 I suppose it is funny, but it is practical. Asmon is a gamer with a massive influence and can weigh in on the MMO angle alongside Thor.
@mmethodd3 ай бұрын
Thor is protecting his interests but you and primeagen simping for him is so cringe lmao
@Joats3 ай бұрын
Man that primeagen video. You could tell Thor was sending out texts "Please back me up everyone don't like what I said"
@miketaggard3093 ай бұрын
Keep in mind that Thor is a nepobaby who is “working” on an 2-hour indie game for several years.
@hrotger3 ай бұрын
primeagen also being a clown and ruining his reputation just because he is friends with nepo blizzard baby? hilarious stupidity.
@seeibe3 ай бұрын
They're all rich people in the rich people club, of course they back each other when it comes to making more money at the expense of their customers.
@LayZKimochi420BlazeIt3 ай бұрын
primeagen has some cringe takes regardless, he had to delist a video that got massive push back because he didn't like that blizzard employees where unionizing lmao
@Thornskade3 ай бұрын
How do you not know the difference between paying for a subscription like Netflix, and buying a movie? Just how?
@illpunchyouintheface90943 ай бұрын
That’s the fun part! You don’t!
@illpunchyouintheface9094Ай бұрын
It takes a special man to not understand basic things. And for some reason they all seem to run KZbin channels like Theo here
@Visimecus3 ай бұрын
"OH NO, we have to actually put in work for the products our customers are buying REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" Are you and Maldavius Figtree partners in Second Life or something?
@schtormm3 ай бұрын
who the fuck is Maldavius Figtree
@Visimecus3 ай бұрын
@@schtormm Jason "Soy" Hall, calls himself Pirate Software nowadays and uses a voice changer.
@reddusty3 ай бұрын
6:07 do you realize how condescending you sound
@yore53 ай бұрын
But it's not wrong. I scrolled down a few lines and immediately see people who have no idea how software or intellectual property work. Gamers should really stop talking about the development of games. Every time they open their mouths i shudder because they're so confidently WRONG
@paulogodinho32753 ай бұрын
@@yore5 They know they can host a server of TF2, and that when valve stops supporting the game, it will continue to live. They also know they can't do that with games like Overwatch 2, that is all you need to know.
@nd77833 ай бұрын
I can see why him and jason are friends..
@DarkDemonXR3 ай бұрын
@@yore5 We know how it works, thats why we want the laws to change... you talk like this shouldnt change because thats how it worked for all this years, well we are tired of this s***
@uruson2 ай бұрын
PSA: In the video recommendations to your right, you'll find three small dots to the right of the video title. If you click that, you can select 'Don't recommend channel.' It does what it says.
@illpunchyouintheface90942 ай бұрын
Thanks for the helpful tip!
@Fawp3 ай бұрын
Shitting on game devs will continue until quality of product improves. Sweep it up janny.
@SprDrumio643 ай бұрын
Wanting to play a game that publishers have blocked you from playing is... entitlement?
@yellowface63143 ай бұрын
Wait… paying for a game and not wanting it to be stolen and destroyed is…. Entitlement? “Yes” - Theo and Thor
@KingKehra3 ай бұрын
These people believe you should pay $100 for a game that will stop working as soon as they release their next $100 game. That is their dream.
@ShadowFalcon2 ай бұрын
They're americans. Obviously, if it isn't bowing down to Big Corpo, it's entitlement.
@TheMagnus1563 ай бұрын
I think you and pirate software are missing entirely the point of this legislation and what it does and are just wrong. You are suppose to be the "smart guys". Did you even read it?
@Neostrius3 ай бұрын
Slight but important correction that the initiative is not legislation
@khealer2 ай бұрын
Don't mistake smart people for decent well intended people. They are corporate stooges and hyper-biased. Assuming good will and sincerity in their rebuttals on their behalf in this video is your mistake.
@hybridz353 ай бұрын
And if we're being fair, why does Thor not mention at all in two videos that he is director of strategy for a company making a live service game? Thats literally a conflict of interest. Yes monetarily it might make no difference to his life, but whether he makes 1 dollar or 50k a conflict of interest is still a conflict of interest
@Ornithopter4703 ай бұрын
Can you link or reference where this is stated? Because I haven't been able to verify it.
@ЕгорКолов-ч5с3 ай бұрын
@@Ornithopter470 iirc it's literally the first line in Thor's twitter bio
@CaptainBasculin3 ай бұрын
While I mostly agree; I really think that if a game is advertised with single player capabilities, it should not be possible to kill the whole game off. The Crew did that, SKG is %100 right on that, that's bullshit. At that point it literally becomes false advertising.
@chinesesparrows3 ай бұрын
@CaptainBasculin While steam requires online connection to login at minimum every couple of months... online DRM even for truly offline only games
@Kane01233 ай бұрын
Situations like SimCity (2013) where the single player required internet access until they got hounded to allow offline play. Was more than a year between release and actual offline play. I don’t support the live game stuff entirely from SKG but this was one of the games where I started paying attention when buying a game for its single player experience.
@CaptainBasculin3 ай бұрын
@@chinesesparrows Goldberg emulator can handle Steam's DRM if you want to go fully offline; or in the case Steam shuts down.
@chinesesparrows3 ай бұрын
@@CaptainBasculin thanks for the info. It's hilarious steam themselves don't supply this, here we are angry about game services closing when steam is a giant service providing games.
@jwueller3 ай бұрын
They shouldn't be allowed to kill of multiplayer either. You paid to own it, and they can't just take half of the product back later.
@JakeTheBeastDelta3 ай бұрын
The reason why many people who play games are hostile towards game companies and devs is because many major companies in the games industry and many devs have been hostile to their players. The hostility between the two groups have been building for a long time with many games, game companies, and devs not getting this kind of hostility because they listen to players and the kind of things they want in games instead of doing things that players see as being harmful to them and/or their games.
@eadumm3 ай бұрын
the fact that you took it personally and the hate you show towards players/comments says a lot
@cheez17713 ай бұрын
Aww he hearted it! So passive aggressive. What an asshole.
@Edheldui3 ай бұрын
@@cheez1771 Dude calls paying customers entitled assholes and sakcs of shit, then complains that the comments aren't polite. Actual sociopath.
@cheez17713 ай бұрын
@@Edhelduiyou hit the nail on the head my guy.
@buffhardback75953 ай бұрын
The dude obviously sucks dick for spending cash
@eadumm3 ай бұрын
the game dev scenario is so large that it, as a whole, could very well contain all possible opinions on this. the fact that he "have not heard from a single game dev who disagrees" confirms he is speaking to a bubble of devs, probably americans with a certain profile. I would say maybe his group of game dev friends, but he seems much more involved in other areas so its difficult to understand where this rant comes from or why this disdain for players opinions
@SilentiumCivis3 ай бұрын
It’s so easy to tell who is a gamer vs who recently go into the hobby to make $.
@frydegz3 ай бұрын
This and the main channels are prime examples of ones only possible on post-dislike button youtube
@frostyprobe3 ай бұрын
>developer >content creator >CEO >friend of Thor We're 14 seconds in and we're already in shill/paid territory.
@hrotger3 ай бұрын
thor crying and calling all his content creator/streamer friends to shill for him, pathetic behavior. Meanwhile Ross/AccursedFarms just released another video on the topic and completely destroyed all those clown arguments.
@seeibe3 ай бұрын
Legit when he was listing off those points I was expecting him to disagree with Thor.. he basically just said "here are the reasons why X is in my best interest, and surprise I'm coming out publicly to say X is good"
@yuf6693 ай бұрын
00:45 from this spot, replace every "gamer" to "consumer" and "game devs" to "service\product provider" then realize how fkd up this industry is for consumers. If I have payed a fee I am "entitled" for a service/good, no shiet.
@theinfernity17993 ай бұрын
He already did that unconscious at 08:18. But yeah, he misspoke. But had to think about that moment when I saw your comment😅
@Rhyas93 ай бұрын
Suddenly devs who for some reason don't speak out about the rest of the industry bullshit, are sooooo passionate about this.
@bbsonjohn3 ай бұрын
I am astounded by the entitlement of game developers.
@sumandark86002 ай бұрын
There is plenty wrong with what Thor said. For starters, gatekeeping people from games by basically saying "if only a couple of people are playing a live service game, then there's no point in preserving it because i wouldn't want to play it" if incredibly problematic. Thor isn't the authority on who is allowed to enjoy what. That's down to the individual Yes, he's got some genuine concerns that need to be heard, but at the same time he has a lot of bad takes on this topic. This isn't black & white & you need to stop treating it like it is
@pereshark3 ай бұрын
"Gamers are entitled!!" shouts entitled deb into the void.
@METALOZON2 ай бұрын
If a game cannot be purchased physically and requires internet to be installed and played then the people making it should go to jail for working against private property.
@theinfernity1799Ай бұрын
Not only that but if you buy a "physical" copy, you still don't get a physical copy most of the time. Because most CD cases nowadays are just simply coming with a key that you need to register OR they are coming with a CD but to use that, you have to link the game with Steam or any other platforms.
@doctormombo81463 ай бұрын
I also hated when governments forced car manufacturers to include seatbelts at their expense. People should have voted with their wallet by purchasing safe cars only instead of interfering with the creative vision of the car designers. I'm glad someone out there is with me on this.
@hrotger3 ай бұрын
he is the equivalent of cigarette companies saying that they are healthy and don't cause cancer and introducing studies and regulations is harming their industry and smokers are entitled.
@SnakiestFrame3 ай бұрын
1:07 entitled for wanting to own something that I purchased. BRO WHAT 🤡😂
@malik828983 ай бұрын
Fr how dare us.
@owlmostdead94923 ай бұрын
Theo I’ll give you $10.000 cash if you can activate a legitimate copy of red dead redemption 2/keep playing it without internet connection
@BrockArock3 ай бұрын
bro rdr2 is a story based game thats made to be played with no wifi
@somenameidk52783 ай бұрын
@@BrockArock but does it have always online drm? thats what the original comment seems to be implying
@szaty23 ай бұрын
I BOUGHT A PRODUCT. THIS MAN SUPPORTS THOOSE WHO TOOK AWAY MY PROPERTY. SUPPORTING A CRIME IS A CRIME. REPORT! i cant even watch this stupidity, "works fine offine offline".... CANT U UNDERSTAND SINGLEPLAYERS ARE KEPT LIVE SERVICE TO BE ABLE TO PATCH IT UP TO BE NOT FINE OFFLINE?????
@rexi14143 ай бұрын
TLDR: GTA V is the most successful live service entertainment software in world history. It is also fully in compliance with what the initiative seeks to make law, because you can keep playing it if the servers of GTA Online would shut down for indefinitely and also as far as I know you could even make your own servers and play online, if TakeTwo would at some point decide to shut their cashcow off. So what the hell are you and Thor complaining about? I want "videogames" that are "sold" to me, that I own, that the creator has given his right to publish and to use up due to him "selling" the software to me according to EU IP Law, to be playable forever, not just for the time he licensed the cars in the game. I don't care about his licence shit. Back in the day, no one would have even thought about having the audacity to license the brands of the cars for 10 years only, they could have and should have licensed it forever. But they didn't because that was more expansive. But we should pay up? No way! Us consumers had already too much leniency for the game devs, time's up now we get our legislators to enforce some changes. I think that you are missing out on a key point. You and Thor are some indie devies trying to make some A or AA games in Grandma's basement (sorry for the hyperbole there) in comparison to the likes of Ubisoft, Microsoft-Xbox, EA and others. Those are the real targets of the initiative. And there is a huge point to be made. They make billions of dollars squeezing money out of us consumers, all the while giving us EULA and TOS's the content of which is the definition of anti-consumer practices. To put it simple, you, the devs or the publishers get to own and keep it all, because oh yeah, let's hide behind IP law, but you still want to "sell" us products, because you want to rake in the money. You want to monetize modern, but not miss out on old school cashcows like the "buy" videogame thing. If you want to rent us a service, market it as such, explain to us, and that's it. We shall see what moron would pay for it 70 dollars. But that is not how it works. I bought the Crew in 2014 for my Xbox One, to this day I have not finished the game, because I wasn't enjoying it. But nobody told me that I would not be able to play the singleplayer campaign in 2040 and in my view I paid the same money as I paid for GTA IV, GTA V, RDR II and other similar games. And let's not pretend that GTA V was not a live service game of sorts. So, let's get to the point here. GTA V is the cornerstone for a financial, successful live service game. Yes, it consists actually of two parts. GTA V and GTA Online. Of those, only the latter one is the cashcow live service. But at least one of the is already in compliance of what the initiative seeks. Once TakeTwo would decide to turn off the servers, I could still play GTA V. And as far as I know if I had the hardware for it, I could even run my own server for GTA Online and play with my friends. So... The thing what you call entiteled is that we actually only expect developers and publishers to go back to the roots of what videogames used to be in 2000 - 2010 where it was virtually almost unheard of to sell a videogame and then cease its support, and suddenly you had bought a disc and when you turn it on it says, "failed to connect to server - Error 1000 - Contact support for more information." Unlike you and Thor, we don't accept that games can be online only, that's one premise. All games used to be primarily single player and then had some sort of Multiplayer mode. Now all games seemingly have a multiplayer setup and at best offer some singleplayer mode. That's what is the issue. Most of the games could be in compliance if they would not develop the game with the intention to turn it off. But now we must clarify what "videogame" means in this context. I am okay with some videogames to be online only and in Thor's view those are not games - products to be sold, but services to be licensed. I am okay if those exist. But they should cost a fraction of what they do now and act like a rental or service fee. You should pay a subscription to be able to access it and that's it. But the subscription cannot be 70 €! These are however not "videogames" in the aforementioned context, because they are services. We can call them what they are - live services. So that's how I see the initiative and why I supported it, and I will get everyone I know to support it as well. We are tired and fed up with being "sold" bullshit over bullshit. The Crew was never marketed as an online only game, it was marketed as having a "singleplayer campaign". I know it because that's why I even bought it. I would not have bought it if it was marketed as a multiplayer only game, and I never played the multiplayer part ever. I don't like competitive multiplayer to interfere with my singleplayer story experience! So, all those who wish to pay 1- 5 € per month to access a live service and play, be my guest. But us other folks, who want our singleplayer part of the game, we would like to keep "buying" those games and in that case we as it seems need new laws to make guys like you develop these games in a way that we don't get our money stolen by guys like you. Sorry for being direct, but that is what it comes down to. I did not agree to rent The Crew for 10 Years, nor did I sign a follow-up contract that I would accept paying another 70 € to "buy" the Crew 2 in order to keep playing the Crew Universe! And I don't care shit about EULAs or TOS's because those are the core issue. I had no chance to view, accept or disagree or negotiate that EULA or TOS when I bought the game and Ubisoft would sure as hell not have returned my money, that I paid at the retailer for the Crew, if I told them, that I'd like my money back, because I am not ready to accept the EULA and TOS, because the place where it says, you can turn off the game at any time of your choosing is unacceptable. This initiative is going to make this shitty business practice with exactly those EULA's and TOS's to end right away. And that is the goal. And we will keep fighting for our videogames because we don't want your live service bullshit. You can sell that to all the people who want it, but not to me or a lot of people I know for a fact exist. If you want to develop services, call them services and ask for monthly service fees, not for a price tag for a game! Got it?! So, now that I watched the last part of your video. I have one message to you: If that, what you say about your customers is true, it's time for you to quit the job and go do something else. Let's see if you can find an industry where your customers are less entitled, so that you don't have to call them names. And BTW. I watched his 2 videos and could not believe the delusional level of bullshit you guys put out there. I kind of know that Thor is an American, but are you too? You obviously do not know the first thing about EU IP Law, do you? In the EU you can't pull this licence shit, as long as you are "selling a game" you are "selling a thing" and once the customer buys his copy of the thing, you cease to be able to dictate to that customer his right to use or not use the product he bought. Go learn a thing or two about the principle of consumption in European IP law, and then come back to us Europeans :).
@Ornithopter4703 ай бұрын
Respectfully, you've never actually bought a video game. Literally never. The entirety of the game is the intellectual property of the creator(s). What you purchased, was in fact a licensed copy of their intellectual property. That's been how IP has worked since well before video games existed. Books, movies, and music all follow the same laws. The issue, as I see it, is that people didn't read the fine print, and if they did, didn't care, that what they were purchasing was a license. And not a generous one. Software licenses are incredibly restrictive, because it's incredibly easy to copy it, and then distribute those copies. The music industry got destroyed by people pirating music. The game industry has fought incredibly hard to prevent the same thing from happening to games.
@Flyon863 ай бұрын
@@Ornithopter470 Ok, well if that's the case then the purchase button in Steam should say "rent" instead of "buy" and it should be explicit how long you are "renting" the game for. Also, the EULA does not supersede existing law regarding consumer rights in Europe so even if someone signed off on the EULA it doesn't matter if it's against the law. A game purchase can't just be a product or a service depending on which benefits the company the most at any given time, they have to define it as one or the other. This works with physical goods too, I can buy a Toyota camry and have use of the product but that doesn't mean I own the blueprints to the camry and start manufacturing and selling camry copies.
@jwueller3 ай бұрын
@@Ornithopter470 IP doesn't transfer just because you buy something that that has the IP _in_ it. Otherwise I actually own the entire Lord of the Rings IP, because I bought a Blu-ray of it. And regarding fine-print: That's not allowed in the EU. You can't just hide caveats in some massive wall of text. Those EULAs are invalid here, as if it didn't exist. And yes, a license is involved, but it's in _addition_ to owning the copy of the game. And the EU courts have ruled that it _has_ to be a *time-unlimited* one when attached to ownership. So you can't just take it away later.
@Sauvva_3 ай бұрын
@@Ornithopter470 that licensed copy is the game, no one believes they bougth the ip along with the disc, but we bought a working sofware that should keep working
@uis2463 ай бұрын
You are forgetting one important detail: Thor is not regular developer, he is owner of game studio. Regular developers that slave away at game studio don't and can't decide to shut down a game.
@xbroggiex3 ай бұрын
This is a consumer rights issue, no-one else needs to be considered in this equation. Simply put if a game developer loses their job over this or games/companies fail... good. If they can't retain a job or make money if this initative actually achieved its goals then they shouldn't have been in the industry in the first place. Layoffs in the industry are a result of over hiring to attempt to get into the big GAAS goldmine that companies think exist and promptly flop in and layoff a bunch of devs or just shutdown entirely. If companies keep trying to make GAAS games you'll continue to see mass layoffs and companies closing doors. If this initiative disuades them in anyway from constantly churning GAAS games out then good, it ultimately means less layoffs and more valued devs that have a lot of experience in GAAS games. But ultimately this is about being able to continue playing the games you pay for and anyone would disagree with this is either not a consumer or not someone that actively plays games.
@jwueller3 ай бұрын
But hand-waving concerns is so much easier if you just dismiss an entire group of people! Just because the gaming industry happens to be the first to be afflicted with this doesn't mean it won't spread. In fact, it already has. Imagine what happens if some medical device suddenly stopped working because a manufacturer wanted to sell a newer one.
@AdobadoFantastico3 ай бұрын
Checking top 10 single player games is a terrible way to confirm/deny the claim that there are more online only single player games than before. One should expect none of the top 10 to exhibit a feature people *don't want*.
@zacharychristy89283 ай бұрын
"Outer Wilds didn't just change my life, it saved it." How can you be so heartless to say that, and then go to bat for policies that could allow games like Outer Wilds to never be played again?
@Dilute03 ай бұрын
No lol outerwilds is a completely offline game this doesn't apply
@zacharychristy89283 ай бұрын
@@Dilute0 Really? Then why do games like The Crew which are completely functional as single-player have an online requirement that makes them unplayable years later? The point I'm making (that you missed) is that ANY single player game, even games like Outer Wilds could be made unplayable forever because of one greedy publisher, but Theo doesn't care because he doesn't understand the first thing about what's being proposed here.
@Dilute03 ай бұрын
@zacharychristy8928 It really depends on the games netcode. Some games store player data online becuase it stops the client from being able to edit it (cheating) when storing this player data becomes unprofitable those servers are shut down to avoid bankruptcy. The games most likely to be taken offline are those that require an Internet connection to play. However if the devs bought licensed models or code the licenser can call for their part of the game to be removed. If the licensed content is big enough the developers might take down the whole game rather than be forced to remake it from scratch
@zacharychristy89283 ай бұрын
@@Dilute0 Correct. And in the case of The Crew, it was a check in a single authorization server that no longer existed. Idk how lazy you think most devs are, but commenting out a single line in the source (instead of data miners using a hex editor) doesn't seem like a huge ask. Even in the case where the topology is complex (which wouldn't be indie games, like Thor and Theo so conveniently picked as examples). Nobody is asking anyone to refactor their entire game. Not only would the law not take effect until years from now, and not apply retroactively, the initiative is only asking for some reasonable due diligence for software products to have an EoL plan (which they should have had anyway, and you're insane if you don't think that's a reasonable ask for any software product) or at the very least for publishers to not be able to shut down private servers for a game they would've otherwise shut down permanently. Im sick of people ardently defending awful business practices because they're too unimaginative to think of a world where developers actually have to do their job well.
@Dilute03 ай бұрын
@zacharychristy8928 I absolutely agree with software products having a EoL plan but i think the misconception is that its not as simple as changing as single line of code. Ive recently made this change to a indie game i have been working on and its taken me a year to get to a playable state. It is still far from as polished as the previous version that replyed on a server and ive already sank over 1 thousand hours on making these changes. It changes almost every line of code in the game.
@chotabomjvonychi34853 ай бұрын
Low quality bait. Just hope you don't apply the same kind of logic to your software
@notfunnydidntlaugh86213 ай бұрын
There is a good chance that he does :/
@yore53 ай бұрын
Any specific point you disagree with that Theo brought up? Or you gonna be vague and useless?
@l2azvy3 ай бұрын
@@yore5 "Any specific point you disagree with that Theo brought up?" Hmm, let me think... maybe THE WHOLE VIDEO? All the points he made were bad to say the least (as well as Thor's), and have been proven wrong by pretty much everyone in the comments and by other youtubers. The organizer of the initiative (Ross/"Accursed Farms" on yt) also released a great video explaining every misconception or false points made about the initiative, which I advise anyone to watch, especially people like you. On top of that, Thor (and most likely Theo as well) is not even willing to talk to Ross about this subject (just check Thor's comment on his first video about SKG), which really shows how much they care about having a constructive discussion on this topic and perfecting the initiative as much as possible for everyone's benefit or at least try to understand the other one's points (which, by the way, is NOT a law, nor it shows the final form of the law, so even in its current state, is not vague at all, it just serves as the ground for a future law). They are only complaining about this, without trying to find a better solution. And why are you so toxic, calling people "useless" for no reason?
@yore52 ай бұрын
@@l2azvy You just wrote so much of NOTHING. You ARE useless you mindless BOT
@ericolofsson3 ай бұрын
Lol the opening of this video was so bad i thought it was parody, took me way to long to realize this dude was serious🤣
@guderheinz2 ай бұрын
If this is an entirely ironic video, it's magnificent. It this is supposed to be serious, you should seek help.
@realcundo3 ай бұрын
A lot of related topics are being discussed as if they all have the same solution. My main issue is that if a game is advertised as a single player and I buy it, I want to be able to play it forever (assuming the HW and OS are still compatible). It's like buying a car and Ford taking the car away after 5 years. I guess good for automakers, not good for consumers. I'd extend this to not only pure single player games, but also games that offer multiplayer. It's fair if multiplayer isn't supported (although it'd be nice just to dump some basic protocol description, the community will happily take over from there), but there's no excuse why the single player part of the game should stop working. I can see a problem when the game itself uses licensed products (like car manufacturers, sports leagues, etc) and I don't know what would be a low-cost solution for the devs here, it can be a lot of assets.
@jwueller3 ай бұрын
The licensed components are a non-issue. They just can't sell it anymore. But they can't take it out after someone has bought it. That's why I can still play my racing games from 20 years ago without any cars removed.
@_DATA_EXPUNGED_3 ай бұрын
@@jwueller Just as a side note, I think theo's primary problem is, that the basic principles behind that petition could, if legislated properly, also significantly harm his own rentseeking endeavours or at least make sure there is basic accountability for the typical "move fast and break things"-behaviour he shows. Never forget that he has an entire farm of skin in the rentseeking game. In any case, Uploadthing's ToS are full of stuff that would get thrown out everywhere except the US in court, he's clearly not aware that things are different in other countries. Oh well. I'd be surprised if he ever said anything seriously critical of this entire business model.
@CynicLP3 ай бұрын
I understand the argument with the licensed content from the dev perspective and that this is a hard problem to solve, but it also feels a bit dishonest: The dev/publisher knows before the release of the game the exact date when the license for the content will run out. The buyer is kept in the dark. For a game in which one of the the main features are licensed content (car games, music games for example) it should be more transparent from the start, how long those licenses are valid.
@derelmo85762 ай бұрын
I'm a software developer too. Making games for years. Thors argument is dumb. So is yours. You don't care about customers. You care about corporate greed.
@illpunchyouintheface9094Ай бұрын
Speaking facts
@xjackson291026 күн бұрын
Cool create a comment saying why he's dumb and not saying why. You guys do realize thor doesn't hate the idea of the initiative he hates the fact that its sloppy and lazily put together. And ontop of that it doesn't consider both ends of the conversation its just attacking devs of live service games and those who enjoy playing them. Your objectivley incorrect in your statement and no matter what you say to me or anyone, you will have to live with the fact that your wrong and they're right.
@illpunchyouintheface909426 күн бұрын
@@xjackson2910 Thor has not once said how it is sloppy or lazily put together. It doesn’t matter what fan boys like you say, Thor is wrong
@Zionswasd24 күн бұрын
@@xjackson2910 Nope. You are objectively incorrect. Thor's entire argument is riddled with logical fallacies, and is objectively unethical and harmful to the gaming industry and the consumers/gamers. No matter what way you spin those logical fallacies and harmful anti-consumer ideation, they remain logical fallacies and harmful anti-consumer ideation, and YOU have to live with the fact that you are wrong, and the fact that we, the customers/gamers and developers who actually care about gaming, are right.
@Zionswasd24 күн бұрын
@@xjackson2910 And before you ask, the slippery slope and false dillemma and circular reasoning and strawman fallacies (and those are just the blatant ones, off the top of my head, mind you, there certainly plenty more if I dissected his videos further). He asserts people will necessarily monetize servers/"abuse" devs with bots, to the point of monopolizing any given game if given the simple freedom/right to create their own community-run servers, but the fact is they do not do that in the existing community run servers of many games (WoW for example) and IF people did try to do that en masse (which they objectively will not, because they already don't), there are already easy/working preventative/punitive measures against that (meaning not only will people not even try to do that en masse, but they CAN'T even do it to the monopolizing/harmful scale that is the crux of his argument), and he refused to talk to the creator of the initiative by attacking their moral integrity over their argument-unrelated practical reasoning as to why the initiative might realistically pass within the extant and non-ideal political system, so add the tu quoqe fallacy to that massive pile of sophistry. Not to mention the purely hypocritical/authoritarian basis of his illogical arguments: he says 'You don't get to decide what games we can play', which DIRECTLY contradicts him saying 'you don't get to play older versions of games you like, because *_I_* have arbitrarily/subjectively decided they are not worth keeping alive.' AND he's clearly ignoring the elephant in the room, that the all-too-common bad practices of specifically live-service games are the reason the AAA gaming industry and almost every ip are being sucked dry/ruined (according to the court of public opinion and all commonly recognized/agreed upon/accepted game design philosophies and ethical/pro-consumer practices), and REAL dev abuse like layoffs and creative overturning/red tape, and (often child) gambling addiction profiteering, by greedy corporate slugs! It's no different from the planned obsolescence/right to repair issue, corpos want exclusive unimpeachable rights to remotely ruin YOUR property/prevent you from being able to fix your property or to prevent you from even legally owning any property to begin with (phones, farming equipment, or video games in this case, you name it), specifically so once they come up with shiny new ways to enshittify/shrinkflate/cheapen those types of products, giving them more leverage to vampire more and more money out of you, they can FORCE you to "upgrade" to the new hypermonetized model, or to be banished in place of gullible cashwhales, thus lowering the bar for their industry. He's literally an unwitting shill, not out of loyalty, but JUST because he's a self-centered, illogical, obstinate contrarian!
@alr21573 ай бұрын
entitled youtuber?
@ff75223 ай бұрын
Blud came to the defence of his friend and started spinning on it
@dusxmt3 ай бұрын
I wasn't going to sign the initiative, thinking it's better to let free market forces to do their thing (and we're seeing that in action, the AAA industry is bleeding a lot recently), but the sheer entitlement and hypocrisy that you've put on full display here (considering your views on Adobe) pushed me over the fence, and I've signed it.
@illpunchyouintheface90943 ай бұрын
Welcome to the resistance, Conrad.
@xorphz2 ай бұрын
Congratulations on being wrong. It's okay to defend your friend but that doesn't mean he's 100% correct, that's one of the most stupid things I've ever heard.
@darekpower3 ай бұрын
the start of the video was so wild I thought this legit was making fun of Thor for the first 2 or so minutes... man this is sad..
@zereimu3 ай бұрын
I feel like this video insults the community's intelligence and pretends to gaslight us.
@Th3GAMP3 ай бұрын
That's exactly his intention but his mask slipped halfway through
@sumandark86002 ай бұрын
9:00 People absolutely care about losing access to films or TV shows. This is especially egregious with content that doesn't get a physical release, or region locked content. There's been a massive movement about preservation of media for well over a decade & it's one of the main reasons why piracy is so abundant. You're just flat out incorrect here
@MemphThree3 ай бұрын
Like i said to Thor; Don't bitch about something you don't understand. I get that you want to support your friend, even though he is wrong. Ross already made a video about the misconceptions people like you and Thor have about the initiative. I haven't seen Thor grow a pair of ball's and make a response to that video. Wanna know why? Cause he knows he is wrong.
@malomarshers3 ай бұрын
"People watch most of their movies and TV on Netflix and listen to most of their music on Spotify, and you don't care" People are literally suing over their content libraries being removed. What are you talking about people don't care? People care a lot. People were literally outraged en masse over Sony removing purchased Discovery titles which was relatively minor. What the fuck?
@itsnouse-yourswillbeastill25623 ай бұрын
Lets bite the hand that feed us, because it worked so well before right? - Game devs/publishers.
@illpunchyouintheface90942 ай бұрын
Devs “these people are terrible” Also devs “buy my trash”
@nethstar3 ай бұрын
Theo when talking about Adobe: 'Model is bad. Extortion practices with no ability to use software on own terms Buy alternatives that actually sell you the product' Theo when live service shutdowns: 'Gamers are all wrong and entitled. Heres proof - scroll down and see who disageess with me.'
@vojtechbouda93503 ай бұрын
Look who is calling gamers entitled...
@BrockArock3 ай бұрын
a dev whats so wierd
@oaledo2 ай бұрын
It really boils down to one fact: If i buy a copy of a book, I can use that as long as I please. If I **buy** a copy of a game, the exact same should be true. If I'm buying 6 months of access to your game servers then **SAY SO CLELARLY.** plenty of MMOs do this. "It got upgraded and you want to play the old version, stupid" HOLY what a terrible take. This perfectly exemplifies the issue: You as the dev should not have the right to change what I have already purchased without my ability to opt out. Valve allowing choice in what version to play is exactly the bare minimum. "We don't solve the problem by making lives harder for game devs" If it's harder for you to provide a product that respects those who pay for it, then you've been crossing a line you shouldn't have been already.
@illpunchyouintheface90942 ай бұрын
Damn right
@Bobthetomado3 ай бұрын
2:03 "I'm interrupting my dinner for this" Theo is entitled to dinner but you're forcing him to do this! but you can't own a game you bought
@St.Raphael_2 ай бұрын
At first I thought you're a troll trying to fan the flames and pull Thor into the line of fire. I never saw someone torpedo his own position this hard. They are our customers and with all the stuff our craft as pulled in the last 14 years, we had this coming. Are there entitled gamers? Yes, but all you did was display your own entitlement. Jesus Christ, I don't think there is something you could have done to make us look worse.
@illpunchyouintheface90942 ай бұрын
I frost though this was a parody, but it stopped being funny and he starting sounding serious. Which made it even more funny but also sad that people like this live among us
@seeibe3 ай бұрын
Well I'm glad you exposed your own dishonesty, gonna save me some time evaluating your opinions on other issues
@HelmetHair2 ай бұрын
Another guy pretending to be a gamer while shitting on them, color me surprised. This has really brought out the anti-consumer crowd.
@illpunchyouintheface90942 ай бұрын
Yea like damn people, Ross and many others are advocating for you and your rights, and you stand with the scum of the earth like Theo? Thor? And every company? Yikes, there’s hope left in this world