Stop Murder Hobos in D&D & Pathfinder! (Ep. 91)

Stop murder hobos in their tracks with these tips from Professor DungeonMaster!
Music:
"Fury of the Dragon's Breath" by Peter Crowley
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[@zealous_fervor]

"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

[@agusmeza6748]

"Im not left handed"

[@skunk12]

@@agusmeza6748 i am ALSO not left-handed.

[@southernknight9983]

lol! I'll have to try that one some time.

[@LuciferielOphelia]

Goblin Slayer has taught me to make sure to kill the baby monsters too, because they too are monsters when they grow up.

[@BeegtymeRawkstah]

Exactly. I'd set your moral compass to "-1000/Standard Californian" if you let an ugly little rape-machine baby escape your boot because you're squeamish about cleansing evil from the world.

[@LuciferielOphelia]

I danced with the devil, and looked deep into the abyss.

[@derekburge5294]

Think I'd argue that it IS the DM's fault more often than not. If you ask the hobos why, you'll find that they're either bored of an unengaging story or are unable to FIND the story. Either way, the DM isn't engaging. Something to consider.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

You are correct. Other youtube DMs have mentioned that.

[@malcolmcampbell3912]

I knew this was going to be good when you referenced the gang featured in Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian.

[@pedrobastos8132]

"I think it's embedded on the DNA of the game" *YESSSSSSSSSSSS IT FREAKING IS*

[@michaelduke9057]

It is absolutely natural but not for the reason the video suggests. I've never seen a DM hand out xp for killing shopkeepers. Inexperienced players tend to want to play out power fantasies. Fortunately most players grow out of it.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

True! Thanks for commenting!

[@pedrobastos8132]

@@michaelduke9057 true, but a lot of GMs certainly reward xp just for killing foes, rather than solving problems, and I can't honestly blame them, that's how the game presents itself: In each stat block there's an XP reward, you balance encounters based on the xp given by each monster, so on and so forth. The only other option the DMG offers (talking about D&D in case you didn't notice yet) is the milestone system, which is just as bad (or even worse) because is too damn arbitrary.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks, Pedro!

[@michaelduke9057]

@@pedrobastos8132 I have to agree arbitrary is a good way of putting it. My DM uses milestone but I use XP when I DM. I find at higher level there always a question about "shouldn't we leveled by now"? However, I do like that it rewards solutions other than just killing everything. I finally decided on xp because it makes the players feel like they've accomplished something each game session. Probably no perfect solution either way.

[@jacobvanveit3437]

I do a solo campaign with a buddy of mine and he never kills anyone. He’s made it all the way to level 17 over 6 years. It’s really a fun campaign and a cool alternative to the typical style of D&D. Role play role play role play.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

That is AWESOME!

[@michaelnurse9089]

That sounds cool. Wish you gave more details.

[@dnaseb9214]

Murder Hobos exist when there are no consequences for it. Goes hand in hand with refusing to kill player characters when they should, thus giving everyone the impression they are immortal cuz the DM will always fudge his rolls and keep them alive.

[@hawk1s1k]

old school D&D banned evil in a group old school gm's just made that pc a npc and removed player if it happened again

[@RPGmodsFan]

Collecting scalps? Sounds like Officer Vai's quest in BG1. I am deeply sad for all the victims of the evil Glanton Gang.

[@ZWIPPMANN]

Ahhh memories of Beregost.

[@JohnGunter_Johnprime]

Love the note from the Orc's child! I'll have to make sure to use a version of that sometime in the future!

[@JohnGunter_Johnprime]

@@TA-by9wv Very true, but in my homebrew game world, there is no alignment and while there are Orcs who have allied with the 'bad guys' in the game, there are also Orcs who have stayed out of the conflict and only wanted to live a normal life, farming, hunting, etc. Was a fun moment for my PCs when they met the first Orc family who were farmers and where the children went screaming to their parents because the 'evil' Humons were invading their home! Not all the party members were Human characters mind you.. but it was fun! They are a lot more careful when playing in campaigns based in that world. Definitely don't play as murder hobos!

[@RPGmodsFan]

My solution to stop Players from becoming Murder HoBos: Award significantly more XP for diplomatically avoiding fights than for combat. When I did this as a DM, my D&D games resembled more of a drama TV series. :-)

[@yawarapuyurak3271]

My players are like this: Killing >>> story, NPCs problems or morale dilemmas. But there is something they enjoy even more: memes. So I build situations or quests where they can do stupid shit. Example: at one point I gave the orc barbarian a skill called "Jojo Flexing" which makes him pose like a Roman sculpture and flex his muscles to the limit. This makes enemies blind. So, when I was done with their bullshit, I made a lvl 20 band of mercenaries go after them. They realized the battle was lost, until he used the skill, posed like a Roman God, and GTFO before they can all be killed. The lesson was learned... I think.

[@TheMorbidHobo]

I basically eliminated set alignment from all intelligent creatures, and my players know that. At this point they really only attack things that are actively aggressive towards them, and that makes me very happy.

[@GG-si7fw]

Your ethos system is awesome. It provides incentives to be heroes, not villains.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks. In Deathbringer RPG I changed it corruption. Gain 10 corruption and you become a monster. Much easier to explain.

[@TheMorbidHobo]

"They ought to check their surface-dwelling privilege and that they are the oppressors" I would genuinely feel less bad about killing him if he said that to me.

[@anthonynorman7545]

Such a good sign of morality, ethics, and empathy!

[@HeroOfTheWeb]

I'd be like "My surface dwelling privilege? Are you saying that those who dwell in caves or underground are lesser beings, because they are not on the surface! Did you just ASSUME my preference for being above ground?! Just wait until the city tweeter hears about this! #goblinkingracism #goblinkingbigot"

[@TheMorbidHobo]

@@anthonynorman7545 You'll get more empathy out of me by appealing to my humanity, not by being condescending and thinking that you know my life story by my race.

[@anthonynorman7545]

@@TheMorbidHobo the major surface dwelling races that the PCs would be playing were able to collectively force them underground, so yes the surfaces dwellers are privileged. No, they are saying that those underground are oppressed because they are unable to choose to live on the surface. Given the context of Professor's world, and the fact that only a king level goblin would be saying those words, it's fairly likely he would know if that band of heroes were from the underdark. A preference for underground is irrelevant to the party indiscriminately killing specifically the peoples who were forced underground like a genocidal task force.

[@anthonynorman7545]

@@TheMorbidHobo you missed the context of a goblin king telling that to a party of murderhobos that just did war crimes by killing every goblin seen regardless of their threat level, civilian status, or age.

[@Titan360]

You know, its funny. The Spoony Experiment has exactly the opposite interpretation of the Baby Orc dillemia. He warns that it has torn parties apart, because the surviving humanoids will tell the PC's enemies that they've been through this way, but the other side will argue for sparing the kobolds. What he finally settled on was telling the audience to just don't do it. Just avoid presenting the issue. Other blogs ask why the player characters must shoulder the entire burden of how to deal with them. If they are supposed to be characters in a fictional world, then how does the world deal with this situation? If man and orc have fought for generations, like how France and England kept fighting during the middle ages, then how is it that they have never formed some kind of truce or agreement about hostage exchanges? Are the characters just ignorant of such an important detail, even though they choose to live the life of mercenary adventurers? Is it a war crime to kill baby kobolds? To wipe out an entire tribe? Have human generals married ogre princesses to secure peace? Is there a treaty forbidding the enslavement of goblins, ironically causing elf society to go abroad and create a slave trade of foreign rock gnomes? Are DMs are trying to have their cake and eat it too? If the PCs are from a society that is awash in corruption, then its a little hard to judge them too harshly for failing to understand that goblins are people, too, because they've been indoctrinated since birth that gobbos are soulless, baby-snatching dark fae that know joy only through the misery of others. The players themselves can just blame their viewing of the recent anime "Goblin Slayer."

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Love the post. Read every word. These are the times when I wish I had a co-host.

[@Titan360]

Also, when you edit your comment to correct a minor error, it apparently takes off the "love" symbol. Thanks, KZbin.

[@jackhartford521]

Lol, when I read your title, for a brief split second, I thought it said, super murder hobos! I immediately thought of my party currently going through the Keep on the Borderlands.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks for sharing! Check out my campaign updates where I out a grim dark spin on KOTB.

[@adamjchafe]

This is a great video because it also can be used for when you WANT to run a murder hobo campaign. All the same stuff applies for the DM to do, but instead of being lessons for the players to curb their behaviour, it becomes plot hooks for them instead. The posse following them is the main enemy force. The young girl assassin is the BBEG, etc.

[@davidmorgan6951]

This reminds me of the corruption system in Lord of the Rings where instead of alignment anything evil judged by the DM would further corrupt you in the Shadow and may turn you to a servant of darkness.

[@taragwendolyn]

In a homebrew campaign, I made sure to communicate to the players from the start that a) crimes routinely get solved (set piece in session 1 involved law enforcement using divination magic & necromancy to solve a murder), b) nothing is inherently evil (there were a couple of monstrous races present at the execution, and nobody was reacting negatively to the presence of a bugbear in the crowd - he was actually a well known merchant in the community), and c) that the campaign would have milestone experience. No murder hobos at all... I won't railroad them or stop them from going evil, but they know what will happen if they do. :)

[@BockwinkleB]

Goblins are going to lecture me on privelege? Sounds like a fun game.

[@zeterzero4356]

I'd enjoy it.

[@DocPicklez]

Goblin Woke!

[@augustoluis6888]

That is the wrong way of turning goblins into NPCs.

[@anthonynorman7545]

As would many victimized or oppressed peoples would

[@xornxenophon3652]

#Boognish: We all know how that lecture will be received by the typical player....

[@augustoluis6888]

Which of these situations lead faster to a goblin massacre? A) They point their swords and curse at you. B) They lecture you on human privilege and dig up your racist tweets.

[@yawarapuyurak3271]

I'm going to contemplate my existance for a few hours. Maybe then I'll have your answer

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

LOL. That's for each party and DM to decide.

[@freddaniel5099]

Mining westerns for plot ideas can lead to fun and profit. 😉

[@zeterzero4356]

The character studies in Gunsmoke alone are worth a look for any content creator.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Absolutely!!

[@FordPrefict42]

I am so using that "See you after work" letter in my campaigns now! It caught me completely off guard and am now imagining my players' faces upon reading such a note.

[@JohnSmith-ox3gy]

The economics of murder. As someone who is learning economics, the murder hobo makes so much sense.

[@mykediemart]

I enjoyed the video and the real world history lesson on murder hobos.

[@benvoliothefirst]

...is Professor DM trying to sneak EDUCATION into our murder-hobo hobby?! I see what you're doing! And I like it.

[@mykediemart]

@@benvoliothefirst Very Insidious of him.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks!

[@roberthill5805]

Most forget that that the only reason that a town is standing with every monster, force of nature, or roving band of murder hobos is that there is a high level retired adventure of level 8-16 most times if not higher. Murder hobos tend to stop when there is real consequence to their actions. That or when they raid a goblin/kobold area they find the young of such and to kill them to is to cause the ire of their patron. This would be the reasonable actions taken by the local beings. Your exact idea of lords dealing with those who interfere with their honor, income, or code.

[@JohnSmith-ox3gy]

I use combination of bounty, alignment and reputation. Your allies will object to your actions.

[@fernandomercado2711]

I think this is one of my favorite videos that you've made. Actions have consequences. Players want to make their mark on the world, and it's our job as DMs to live out the consequences, wherever they may lead. :P

[@InnoVintage]

Where did they come from, where did they go? Where did they come from, murder hobos

[@purience1502]

Thank you sir...now I'm using Ethos at my table

[@zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba0]

The answer is simple. One or more Astral Dreadnoughts.

[@Lobsterwithinternet]

Here was my answer to a couple of munchkin Paladins wreaking havoc acrossed the world ( both Lawful Good btw). Ancient Prismatic Dragon Titanic dragon, neutral Armor Class 24 (natural armor) Hit Points 968 (16d100 + 160) Speed 50 ft., fly 100 ft. STR 30 (+10) Dex 14 (+2) CON 30 (+10) INT 22 (+6) WIS 19 (+4) CHA 30 (+10) Saving Throws Dex +12, Con +21, Wis +14, Cha +22 Skills Perception +24, Stealth +12 Damage Immunities radiant; bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical weapons Condition Immunities blinded Senses blindsight 120 ft., darkvision 240 ft., passive Perception 34 Languages Common, Draconic Challenge 36 (290,000 XP) Legendary Resistance (3/Day). If the dragon fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead. Light Immunity. The dragon is immune to light-based spells and effects such as prismatic spray. Siege Monster. The dragon deals double damage to objects and structures. ACTIONS Multiattack. The dragon can use its Frightful Presence. It then makes one bite attack and two claw attacks. It may use its Crush or Swallow in place of its bite. Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +20 to hit, reach 20 ft., one target. Hit: 32 (4d10 + 10) piercing damage plus 21 (6d6) radiant damage. If the target is a creature, it is grappled (escape DC 20). Until this grapple ends, the target is restrained, and the dragon can't bite another target. Claw. Melee Weapon Attack: +20 to hit, reach 15 ft., one target. Hit: 24 (4d6 + 10) slashing damage. Tail. Melee Weapon Attack: +20 to hit, reach 25 ft., one target. Hit: 28 (4d8 + 10) bludgeoning damage, and the target must succeed on a DC 28 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone. Crush. The dragon attempts to crush its foes underneath it using its weight. All creatures in the dragon's space must make a DC 28 Dexterity saving throw. On a success, a creature is not crushed, and moves out of the dragon's space to a space adjacent to the dragon. On a failure, a creature becomes grappled by the dragon (escape DC 20). While grappled in this manner, a creature is also considered prone and restrained, and takes 28 (4d8 + 10) bludgeoning damage at the start of each of the dragon's turns. A creature is freed from this grapple when the dragon moves. Swallow. The dragon makes one bite attack against a Gargantuan or smaller creature it is grappling. If the attack hits, the target takes the bite's damage, the target is swallowed, and the grapple ends. While swallowed, the creature is blinded and restrained, it has total cover against attacks and other effects outside the dragon, and it takes 81 (18d8) acid damage at the start of each of the dragon's turns. If the dragon takes 60 damage or more on a single turn from a creature inside it, the dragon must succeed on a Constitution saving throw at the end of that turn or regurgitate all swallowed creatures, which fall prone in a space within 10 feet of the dragon. The DC for this saving throw equals one-third the damage taken during that single turn. If the dragon dies, a swallowed creature is no longer restrained by it and can escape from the corpse by using 30 feet of movement, exiting prone. Frightful Presence. Each creature of the dragon's choice that is within 120 feet of the dragon and aware of it must succeed on a DC 28 Wisdom saving throw or become frightened for 1 minute. A creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success. If a creature's saving throw is successful or the effect ends for it, the creature is immune to the dragon's Frightful Presence for the next 24 hours. Prismatic Breath (Recharge 5-6). The dragon exhales prismatic energy in a 120-foot cone, which manifests as eight multicolored rays of light. Each ray is a different color and has a different power and purpose. Each creature in the area of effect must make a DC 28 Dexterity saving throw, and each creature also rolls a d8 to see which color ray affects them: 1. Red. The target takes 104 (16d12) fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. 2. Orange. The target takes 104 (16d12) acid damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. 3. Yellow. The target takes 104 (16d12) lightning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. 4. Green. The target takes 104 (16d12) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. 5. Blue. The target takes 104 (16d12) cold damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. 6. Indigo. On a failed save, the target is restrained. It must then make a DC 28 Constitution saving throw at the end of each of its turns. If it successfully saves three times, the spell ends. If it fails its save three times, it permanently turns to stone and is subjected to the petrified condition. The successes and failures don't need to be consecutive; keep track of both until the target collects three of a kind. 7. Violet. On a failed save, the target is blinded. It must then make a DC 28 Wisdom saving throw at the start of the dragon's next turn. A successful save ends the blindness. If it fails that save, the creature is transported to another plane of existence of the GM's choosing and is no longer blinded. (Typically, a creature that is on a plane that isn't its home plane is banished home, while other creatures are usually cast into the Astral or Ethereal planes.) 8. Special. The target is struck by two rays. It rolls twice more, rerolling any 8's. REACTIONS Bloodied Breath. When the dragon falls below half its hit point maximum, it uses its prismatic breath. The dragon does not need to have its prismatic breath charged, and using its breath in this manner does not consume its charge. Once the dragon uses this reaction, it can't use it again until it reaches its hit point maximum. LEGENDARY ACTIONS The dragon can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. The dragon regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn. Detect. The dragon makes a Wisdom (Perception) check. Tail Attack. The dragon makes a tail attack. Wing Attack (Costs 2 Actions). The dragon beats its wings. Each creature within 25 feet of the dragon must succeed on a DC 28 Dexterity saving throw or take 26 (4d6 + 10) bludgeoning damage and be knocked prone. The dragon can then fly up to half its flying speed. Dropped two of them right on their heads via errant magic.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

That works too.

[@papamojo2904]

It's really cool how mechanics shape player psychology. You can only really do the long arm of the law after the players have already done murderhboboing, then their reputation is ruined and it's hard to stop being murderhobos. So I think I'm going to introduce a reputation stat. Every time the party does something noteworthy it goes up and I attatch a tag donoting the nature of their (in)fame. That'll make them more cognizant of their actions. Then if they do get a horrible reputation they can work on getting back into societies good graces, or maybe a theives guild capo or warlord tries to recruit them.

[@back80productions20]

Another great video, you have completely improved my games. Keep it up.

[@kiruppert]

There is very good advice here, like uncouple rewards like XP from the death of living creatures and have common-sense consequences that often get ignored in games come up. Guilt is a bad row to hoe, at least if you haven't set this up in advance. Players are going to feel cheated at best if you presented them with a world where they thought there were no-consequence evil sword fodder they could kill with impunity and then you suddenly expect them to worry about orc war orphans. Have hallmarks of civilization, if crude, appear. When the battle starts going south, have the orcs surrender or call for negotiation. Or you know what works even better? At the beginning of the game, when you're telling the party about your setting, why it's awesome and what they can expect, tell them that morality is complex, you hate the concept of blanket-evil sentient species, and even orcs and goblins have loved ones. I've also never seen a karma meter that wasn't janky as all heck and east to game. In my experience, the extent to which Alignment works at all is as a kinda abstract and vague background element. But that's my experience, and your mileage may vary.

[@CyrusB1]

I'd never heard of the Glanton gang before but it fits perfectly right down to the slaughter of the gang. I've never seen the Wild Bunch but the ending is famous for its violence. Love the scenario where the little girl hires the PCs to kill on of their own. Maybe, a la the Dark Knight, you could give each of the players a gem as part of a magic safe, each gem required to open the safe. An NPC carries a master key also required to open the safe, but is killed early on in the adventure. Now the Murder-hobos have to decide who is to be trusted with the key, and possibly, they smell blood in the water too. Hints at a larger share if there are fewer party members with gems. Alliances could grow organically out of survival, only to have them turn on each other. The learning possibilities of 'why its naturally advantageous for people to get along' are numerous. Great vid as always, Professor!

[@zeterzero4356]

I love and hate this. Would make a very interesting and tense campaign. Not a fan of turning pcs against each other though since that can easily bleed over into the real world. Would need s very particular group of players for it to work but it could be great.

[@CyrusB1]

@@zeterzero4356 Neither am I ("a fan of turning pcs against each other") It should be used as a scalpel; as you say, for a very particular group of players. in this instance, the unempathetic, the murder-hobos

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Cool ideas!

[@Grimlore82]

I am going to copy and paste this in every damn D&D FB group I come across.

[@NefariousKoel]

Who Murders The Murder Hobos? (on the final frontier)

[@michaelshoen2762]

Excellent video, Professor! Thanks for filming this!

[@sirguy6678]

Fantastic! Another Great video professor!

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks!

[@s-o-tariknomad6970]

Ah man, that Orc note thing really hit me...

[@invictuscenturion8468]

The Book Blood Meridian is about this and follows the horrific carnage. Most violent book i have ever read.

[@Joshuazx]

4:50 "I'm an English teacher." Wow, how did I guess! You actually remind me of my favorite English teacher.

[@johnr7279]

I love these segments and getting to hear the advice of the dapper dude wearing the +1 (+2 I think) jacket of insight has crept into my game! I've been DM'ing for about a year now and have a small group about to hit 7th level. Gaining the insight of the experience of other DMs, particularly those who like to host a very visual game, is very interesting!

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks for watching and subscribing.

[@MurderHoboShow]

HEY SIMMER DOWN!!

[@southernknight9983]

Your last suggestion is the method that I use. I always start out new and unfamiliar players at base levels, so I don't have to conjure up anything elaborate to give the hobo a quick taste of his own medicine.

[@ShawnLoCascio]

Looks for "those" videos "over there"... XD

[@doctorlolchicken7478]

This is great. Your comment about unchecked wizards really sums it up: no land is going to allow a powerful gang to go unchecked. I will point out that sometimes the party does this kind of thing because they are bored or frustrated with the campaign. In these situations I find the players would rather fight to the death than pay for their crimes, so I avoid giving them that “last stand” encounter for murder hoboism. My regulating force is an elite guild of assassins (based on the Morag Tong in the video game Morrowind) who are hired to legally kill or get the party in line. Rather than fighting the party outright, the process is more psychological: 1. Party discovers that the Morag Tong is after them. Some kind of warning. 2. Harassment by Morag Tong that induces annoyance in party. Usually this involves stealing their stuff, preventing them resting, spoiling their plans. All stuff players hate. 3. Ultimatum. Repent or die. This is usually a quest that is a good deed. By doing the quest the party has to do good deeds, and they get rewarded. 4. Harassment continues and escalates. Note that the primary goal of the Morag Tong is to avoid a fair fight. They cannot be lured out. My favorite tactic is to have the MT capture some party member where the player cannot make the session. The player only learns that they were hauled away, and their character now has insanity points or a psychological defect. If the party absolutely refuses to reform then they may get offered a suicide mission that allows them to be as violent and debauched as they want, like go kill the orc tribe. They probably will die. If they refuse everything then they get killed in their sleep because it is campaign over anyway. Note that, outside the game, I try and find out why they are being murder hobos. If they just need a break, I give them a quest where they can be murder hobos for a while. This approach has always worked for me. The worst it ever got is where I killed off one player’s character because he refused to get in line with everyone else. He was just being disruptive so he was out.

[@alanschaub147]

I like the idea of using Ethos for the Law versus Chaos dimension, as well as Good versus Evil. If they go too far towards Chaos they are declared outlaws.

[@marceloave30]

I loved this video. These are really good plots to make a party dwell their thoughts in ethics and moral. Loved the globlin plot. The ethos system brings me back something from Storytelling system or even Star Wars d6 RPG (with the Dark Side points). Really nice touch to the game. I love making the party face consequences later in the campaign for their actions (good or bad) in the campaign world ? I love to make them learn something "changed in the world" by their past actions many many sessions later. They always get surprised !

[@achimsinn7782]

I somewhat reworked the system Matt MErcer uses for our group. He lets his players level up when they reach significant milestones of the campaign. What I do differently is that I award xp hidden from the players for reaching such milestones, but also add or remove xp for how they reached those milestones. That doesn't only apply to murder hobos, but also to acting way out of character for your PC or generally irritating behaviour during the game. Basically if you piss of the GM, you'll level up slower. I add xp for good roleplaying, creative solutions for the problem and sometimes for heroic actions or other ingame achievements. If the heroes still decide to be murder hobos, that's just fine with me - but I would rework the campaign to be no more about them being heroes, but rather a band of criminal mercenaries, that is wanted by the government. This means they would have to disguise themselves when coming into town or the guards will recognice and attack them. Shopowners wouldn't trade with them, but rather lock the doors when they see them. The local inn won't let them sleep there and the tavern won't serve them ale. I actually ran one campaign like that and it turned out to be pretty fun. After a while they built a bandit camp in a former orc village they raided and had more bandits join them and set up small shops and stuff, but also had to always watch for other bandits and guards finding them. After a while "their" town grew too big to be hidden and got attacked by the king and in order to not have their own village being burnt down they had to forfill one last mission for the kind and to promise that they won't be raiding other human settlements ever again.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Those are very cool ideas. Thanks for taking the time to share!

[@simonwaarne1584]

Awesome thought process on the ethos point

[@psevdhome]

I've been thinking of going back to awarding xp for overcoming challenges and maybe using the old system of giving xp for treasure (objectives) and using the skills your class gives you. Wizards can gain xp by learning spells, rogues for opening locks, disarming traps and yes, stealing, (without killing the guards). A bard might get xp by learning lore on magic items or learning new songs from other travelling entertainers. I accidentally saved one of my npcs for giving the players xp immediately after they beat him senseless. This way he was not killed, and they were able to interrogate this wizard and learn why he hat sent the bandits after the party. But I did is by accidentally saying, yeah, you got this much xp. I signalled to the players with the right incentive that they aren't required to kill him to earn the xp, and they stopped beating him. The system does tell you to give xp for defeated enemies, not just ones who are killed but it still is almost natural to assume killing is the method needed.

[@JavlinVII]

Another solid video, keep up the great work!

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks for watching!

[@gamemaster7903]

I like to sprinkle a few powerful non-player characters in with my common folk. A typical guard may be a low-level conscript or he may be a former sergeant-at-arms who was recently demoted. The patron in the tavern may be the village cobbler or an ex-adventurer who is in semi-retirement. Any NPC may also be related to a powerful figure, having political or criminal connections. I try to always keep the players guessing as to the power level of those they come across.

[@josephb1884]

Passing this on to my old group. Thank you.

[@jimeronimo]

Interesting ways to keep the PCs in check.. good ideas. Thanks

[@DocPicklez]

I use milestone as a simple deterrent. I will often give this person a sentient weapon that has a cool function, making it hard to put down but also detests killing when not absolutely necessary. Also the looming hassle for the PC with law enforcement becomes to burdensome with the added WANTED poster everywhere they go.

[@robertcrawford4748]

Excellent video, interesting topic for any level GM. No "videos other there" though.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

It should be corrected now. KZbin is glitchy.

[@robertcrawford4748]

Dungeon Craft thanks! Appreciate it

[@DrewBaye]

The "rules of engagement" depend on the PCs alignment and the laws and mores of the places their adventures take them.

[@eonhet7826]

That last one with the little girl is awesome... I will definitely use it!

[@Wolfboy2006]

It will be a story of True Grit...

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

It's a good one!

[@joesgotmore]

Love your videos as always. I had a campaign where the Barkeep was in the thieves guild and the party attacked and killed some members. So when the law arrived she stated the party had attacked and killed innocent patrons. Since they had no proof of the people they killed being bad they tried to lie their way out of it. One was a druid another was a beast master Ranger with a Panther companion. The lawmen could see one of the victims was torn apart by an animal and sided with the Barkeep. Even though the person killed was by the Druid in a much larger animal form. They didn't take it well and fled the scene running from the law and having a hell of a time trying to clear their name. A good way to curb Murder Hobos is to send the law after them. Even if they aren't doing anything bad per se. They need to consider their actions before they just start killing people even if it is justified.

[@wudenbachs]

Of all the things I've learned from watching this channel, I think the most important is to acquire a tweed jacket I'm confident that with its bestowed properties my dungeon mastering will attain absolute competency, otherwise only achieved through years of endured practiced

[@euansmith3699]

"... I love you daddy..." :D :D :D I love the use of the Massive Darkness Dwarves as the Lord's Posse. I imagine the angry lord going in to the dungeon below his keep, throwing open a door, and revealing dozens of angry dwarves polishing their hammers.

[@robertburns4429]

Step 1) Talk to your players. Express your expectations/preferences.

[@goyasolidar]

I once tried the heartstring tactic of burdening players with infant monsters and appealing to their humanity (in this case, it was a creche of innocent goblin tots). After describing the scene and situation, the players looked at each other and promptly hurled them all down a deep shaft in the cavern. Some people are just dicks.

[@havasigabor9986]

The more they found out about the world around them, the more XP they gain. Finding connections between locations, events, people, etc. in the campaign rewards much more XP than killing 5 more orc. :) I like your channel, keep up the good work! :)

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

I concur.

[@elrond3737]

Ah ha. I knew it. You are a teacher. I am as well. I have taught every major subject over the years. But my license is in History. Right now I am watching your show and prepping a unit on the Vikings or rather Vikingers. Murder hobos and Vikings go together very well I think.

[@jarrodeverhart9072]

Another great one. Thank you

[@oldercloudify]

“See the boy...”. Blood Meridian is possibly my favorite book of all time.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Tough book to read. People either love it or don't.

[@oldercloudify]

Dungeon Craft I happen to think it’s an important work. Watched a Harvard lecture devoted to it. Lots of allusions to Ahab and Paradise Lost.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

@@oldercloudify Absolutely. My favorite chapter is 2 when the Judge lies about the preacher. Brilliant.

[@oldercloudify]

Dungeon Craft Yes. I’ve read it twice. I’m due for another pass.

[@Charvale]

What I did was add Reputation into my games. For every good deed (at least those with witnesses) the group/character would gain a reputation point toward Famous up to 10 (at 5 they're already talked about) but for evil deeds they would gain a point toward the Infamous reputation (at 5 they're treated with disdain) and may find prices increased or people just unwilling to even converse with them. Now each culture has their own set of reputation points; what may be good to a human culture might be evil to a goblin culture, etc and they will be treated with kindness or anger to each potential culture. It really does make the game a bit more three dimensional, and realistic while helping to check the "murder hobo" side of the game.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Great idea!

[@Charvale]

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I technically got the idea from the game Baldur's Gate, but added a little twist by adding the "multiple culture" angle. It allowed for more "role" play (character development), and less "roll" play (point hoarding).

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

@@Charvale Good artists borrow. GREAT artists STEAL.

[@Demolitiondude]

I got a solution to the murder hobo problem. World of darkness, call of Cthulhu, d20 modern.

[@robertwarren4734]

Watches this video after a Dark Souls III session: But the Fire Keeper told me: Ashen one, to be Unkindled is to be a vessel for souls. Sovereignless souls will become thy strength. I will show thee how. Ashen one, bring me souls, plucked from their vessels..."

[@bcostell69]

Loving your massive darkness figures , I hope we see a paint up video

[@ogreboy8843]

1:45 Wait... "By paying by the scalp they INADVERTENTLY incentivized genocide?" What do you suppose they were after? A friendly turkey dinner?

[@med3049]

As a DM, I've used the long arm of the law, sending out bounty hunters, militia or the army after them to bring them to justice. I once had a party where one player was a murder hobo, he entered a local temple and proceeded to assassinate they entire clergy for fun. Unfortunately for the PC, not all the clergy died. The king sent an entire company of cavalry to capture him. When the rest of the party was questioned about their affiliation with the PC, they quickly distanced themselves from him. The PC was tried and executed. As a side note, I had an NPC refer to the party as grave robbers after they destroyed the undead in a tomb then looted the tomb. I also had the players all play orcs once and had adventurers raid their home, looting and killing their friends and neighbors. The party was sent out to bring the adventurers to justice.

[@RoninCatholic]

And then there's some communication confusion: Some people call _any_ group of adventurers who want to fight monsters, collect treasure, travel from town to town, and not set up a single solid home base "murder hobos" because the characters are technically homeless and kill sapient beings. Doesn't matter if the characters include a saintly cleric pure as the driven snow and even the most brutal thief and barbarian in the group have strict rules against harming the innocent. By _their_ standards, literally every character I ever want to play in a tabletop game is a "murder hobo".

[@chazlong61]

I love everything about this. I generally do not play with too many house rules, but I like your Ethos points system. It absolutely is a way you can show your players rather than tell them about where their actions are on the God/Evil axis of alignment. That in and of itself makes it a useful addition. I absolutely like that you discuss verisimilitude without throwing the word around. Any DM who uses your system and your tips here will almost certainly see their players engage more in the world and feel as if it really does change based on their actions. This is your best video to date, and that is saying something. :)

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

+1 xp for using the word "verisimilitude" correctly.

[@LeonGarnet]

Great video, I've implemented some of these solutions in the pass to great effect, specially the "guilt" approach but I rather eat my bag of dice before using terms like "_ _ _ _ _-Privilege", I might try the little girl hiring assassins to avenge her family in the future.

[@JamesJohnson-tj9pv]

I have road wardens and city guards everywhere in my game. Taxes for everything including ear taxes for elves, coin clipping for gate tolls. Magic is powerful but rare and difficult to master. Slavers are constantly a threat. Plus clerics and paladins better be praying.

[@Grungydan]

I deal with murder-hobos by...telling my players they aren't going to play a bunch of murder hobos. If they do, I kick them out of my game. This has multiple benefits, one of my favorite being that I don't have to turn goblins and other evil things into wishy-washy half-baked relativism nonsense. In my worlds, goblins are purely, as in created by an evil god to do evil things on his behalf, EVIL. Goblin baby? Evil. Killing it is good. That's because in my games, as is the intent in D&D, good and evil are real forces used by real gods, not concepts to be argued over while everyone else sits around wishing the game could just continue. EDITED to better reflect a though I was trying to get across. Was thinking about morality play as in D&D is one much of the time, and initially wrote that where I meant to say relativism.

[@ronniejdio9411]

Killing babies? Call it late late late term abortion

[@Mavrik9000]

Short version: Natural, logical, and thematically dramatic consequences to their actions.

[@Lobsterwithinternet]

Until you get frustrated, then you just take their characters away for not roleplaying how you want them to.

[@fernandomercado2711]

I'm employing this. But also: gold = XP. That's an OD&D conceit. Kind of realistic too when you think of it. o.0

[@roderik4]

You just described a bunch of great ideas for roleplay sessions. Now I wish my players were murder hobos so they would take the bait

[@shawnmulberry774]

[Stands on chair - slow fist pump] Yesssss!!!

[@jaymiescott96]

I have looked at this a few times since it aired as well as a few other tips you provided and today have crafted 3 level 0 adventures to tie the party together. Two are an escape naratives allowing the PCs to jump right into their level 1 module. One was done on PPT as I am vacationing away from home in the theme of your DMs notebook 1 Pager. Simple map in middle with details and combat stats all around it. One revolves around a fall festival where PCs will encounter one another taking part in various games of chance or feats of skill. They can expose local trechery, provide truth to loca gossip, and while there is the opportunity for combat, if PCs want to stay above the community drama, they can just participate in competitions and earn objective completion. I would recommend looking at Paizo organized play, I think you do a good deal of that. There is absolutely no tracking xp. complete 3 adventures, gain a level, so for organized play that is about 12 hours of gameplay for each level. I would be more than happy to share with you via email if you like.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks for the thoughtful post. These sound like great ideas! Don't have the time to read emails. I wish I did. Responding to posts AND making videos is very time-consuming. But thanks!

[@jaymiescott96]

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 No worries I just did a bit too much research on festivals and lined them up with activities from the Pathfinder 2E core rule book. Since I am 50%Murder Hobo and 50%story teller I pushed out of my comfort zone to find things that would either avoid combat or have non combat options. Such as do you expose the mayor as being the father of villager x or not are there benefits to doing it and are there greater ones for not doing it.

[@carlpult5235]

Tbh I'm often a bit sceptic of your curriculum, as it usually has a very clear bias towards what you like in your games without much reflection. This is really great however and sorely lack extra thumbs(up) to give you here. Good references, Good Solutions and good Presentation, A+

[@justinwells6458]

Small question. I understand that the run and gun break in and go goalproach can be redundant, but more often than not, so too are most monsters and enemies you fight. How do you reinvent adversary engagement without thickening the pot with “too much role play”?

[@RevPirateDan]

Playing murder hobos is NOT inherently a bad thing. If everybody at the table wants to do it, or is at least OK with it, and it doesn't ruin the adventure the DM planned, LET IT GO. Unless you are a parent running D&D for your 6-15 year old kid and their friends, it is NOT YOUR JOB to police other people's fictional morality. If everybody shows up to Session Zero going "Murder hobos?" "Murder hobos!" maybe that's the game you need to run... or not the players you need to run it with. I got the murder hobo-ing mostly out of my system in grade school. But I ain't gonna lie, I still enjoy a short murder hobo campaign every once in a while.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

I run for teenagers. They are ALL murder hobos.

[@dylanwatts1045]

Here's my advice - taken from your advice! Put the "master" back in "dungeon master" and tell them they can't be murder hobos! I literally have a line in my session zero campaign rules that says "no murder hobos!"

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Funny you should mention this. I'm making a video on how Von Machina murdered an old woman in Critical Role, S1, ep 25. Every CR are murder hobos! Stay tuned.

[@DaBezzzz]

Man you could have said "Murder hobos! Where do they come from, where do they go?"

[@jorgedasilva7665]

Where did you come from? Where did you go? Where did you come from Murder Hobos!?

[@jasonvl1634]

That ethos system only disincentivizes bad behavior, it doesn't reward good behavior. That's just further restricting players choices by putting in a system that if they don't buy into the DM's system then the DM is going to get rid of your character. There was no reward for doing the right thing there's just removal from the game if you don't play your character the way the DM want you to play the character.

[@Lobsterwithinternet]

Kind of a late reply but my thoughts exactly. If the DM wants the PCs to go play in a certain way, they should just grab a set of dice and some stat sheets and play the game by themselves.

[@jacobstaten2366]

I remember watching a kid play Grand Theft Auto; Vice City. He was driving an ambulance (someone playing before him stole it) and he was driving from place to place helping people. Another friend said to me that, "If you tell someone the game is one where you can do anything, they do anything. If you tell them it's about slaughter and hookers, they're going to do exactly that."

[@Xaxares]

"Heavy handed" Bit of a euphemism, but if that works for you.

[@trouqe]

Consequences to every action!

[@mechanussunrise]

Didn't early games give XP for treasure not killing, or minimally for killing monsters?

[@Copratra]

By adding Call of Cthulhu's Sanity points are an excellent tool to keep player characters in line. First humanoid kill by the character: -10 points immediately makes the point for future encounters as whole. Works as your Ethos points, but enforces the mental challenges this kind of behaviour causes. Killing should be made the last option in encounters and that way a dramatic situation in the game. "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." - Isaac Asimov.

[@johnspencer7838]

I love murder hobos, they are the easiest group to manipulate because you can predict exactly what they are going to do.

[@brutaux1913]

I love the idea of the ethos system, and perhaps not even revealing the system to the hobos at first, but instead keep the ethos point values to yourself as the DM and progressively warn the hobos of their gradual fall from grace, and towards the final point loss reveal that they risk completely loosing control of their player. Now I want to paint some "corrupted" versions of players just in case I have to take the reigns and exact some hobo revenge, thank you!

[@johnevans9156]

Liked, subbed, and notified. Quality work here.

[@israelmorales4249]

Awesome work!

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thank you! Cheers!