Stop Turning your Commander into a Combo Piece

[@shooberoni]

"figuring out ways to win that your opponents will allow you to perform the setup for" is a really good statement that I don't think I've heard of before or at least never phrases in such a way, I like it

[@EdHGuru]

Facts it’s a fine line to walk between fun and powerful and if your win lines are innocuous or blend in with your general game plan it can be difficult for opps to see it coming or know which pieces are problems and which are just value.

[@SidePressure]

it's also the reason i prefer 1v1

[@TheMCGamer2012]

needing your opponents to allow you to win is why I won't step foot in Commander

[@whatcookgoodlook]

@@TheMCGamer2012it’s really not all that bad. Depends on your playgroup and how much they care about winning vs having fun

[@matthewgagnon9426]

It's a tricky line to walk, but I've definitely attempted it before as a deliberate strategy.

[@dawgiedawg6893]

"Stop Turning your Commander into a Combo Piece" unless you are in blue and run a shit ton of counterspells.

[@xxhellspawnedxx]

It's more than that. I can use an example from my own bag of tricks: I built an Abdel Adrian + Candlekeep Sage flicker deck recently, and it included Restoration Angel and Felidar Guardian, which was a mistake. It was intended to be a fun, reactive sort of deck - Keep your entire board hidden under Abdel, and use flicker effects to pop them out several times a turn, generating a shitload of value - But the combos the two aforementioned cards enables took the deck over completely. With Restoration Angel or Felidar Guardian coming into play while Abdel is around, they flicker each other back and forth, leading to infinite ETB's, which includes infinite life gain, infinite tokens, infinite card draw, infinite mana... Anything I have an ETB for in my deck. This now became the focus of the deck, and subsumed the fun, tricky and reactive value train that I intended the deck to be. If I have a way to win, I'll go for it - I don't "play with my food" - and thus I summarily removed them, because those combos wasn't what I wanted the deck to do.

[@TheMattmatic]

It also has a lot to do with consistency. Your playgroup doesn’t remember all the times you sat there and did nothing because your commander died - they remember the one time you combo killed the entire table turn three. When you pull out that deck again, that’s what they’ll base their threat assessment on.

[@dawgiedawg6893]

@@TheMattmatic Lmao i'm sorry but in my experience, no. Last week ran my Nasrset Enlightened Exile deck with no combos. Popped the commander 8 times in two games as soon as it hit. I get targeted for existing Next week i'm running my combo Zaxara deck that I took apart my cedh Malcolm/Vial Smasher deck to feed.Shit ton of counterspells baby, ready for the 1v2 as they gang up on me when my buddy isn't there.

[@TheMattmatic]

@@dawgiedawg6893 Are you playing with a regular playgroup, where you know the players and it’s a known ”meta”? Or vs unknown players? That can also change things a lot in my experience.

[@dawgiedawg6893]

@@TheMattmatic Playing with a regular playgroup but it's complicated. One player never shows so that leaves me with two guys that are friends that don't really target each other. Which leaves me to deal with everything. One guy is newer and never a threat but leaves his interaction for me, other guy is a threat and sees me as the threat.

[@fearghaill9738]

To paraphrase another MTG creator (Maldhound): "If you show up at my party and I know that 90% of the time you're a chill person, and 10% of the time you're going to take a dump on the floor, I'm going to get rid of you as fast as possible."

[@RandallStephens397]

A wise man once told me "Yeah, sword of feast and famine is good, but I might get to keep a greatsword."

[@robmitchell3039]

Sometimes I'll keep a card that eats removal in the deck, BECAUSE it eats removal. If the card is good (Great? Broken?😀) , but not strictly necessary to win, that's one less removal they can use on thing I do need to win the game.

[@HellecticMojo]

Cheap first strikers are my go to for eating it. Everyone fears first strike and it will be played around.

[@magnusbevaart2477]

Was it Richard?

[@jameshamilton6618]

​@@robmitchell3039this is precisely why Vorinclex sits in my deck

[@sebastianahrens2385]

@@robmitchell3039 Great point. I think a good example card would be Consecrated Sphinx. It probably never ends a game with its 4 power, but the resources it provides if not removed. And even IF it is removed, it might already have drawn enough cards to pay for itself.

[@lukebortot7625]

As an additional comment on Atraxa running poison. Poison (and also commander damage) focused decks all have the same weakness in a free for all format: you are the only player at the table that can advance your win con. Everyone at the table will be doing regular damage. If you get someone to 15 hp they must be concerned about their life total, and therefor must be scared of everyone. If you get someone to 6 poison counters they only need to be concerned about you (and more specifically, how they can remove you from the game). Poison (or voltron) can be fun but only If you want to be the archenemy of the table.

[@camoking3609]

Phyrexians became archenemy of the entire multiverse so i consider that a flavor win

[@robmitchell3039]

But commander damage is also regular damage. So while I may be on my own doing 21+ with my commander, if someone else takes an opponent down to 15, then that's all I need to do. I find commander damage to be a ridiculously reliable wincon.

[@lukebortot7625]

​@@robmitchell3039 This is very true. Maybe this effect is mostly a symptom of my pod's deck pool where life gain is fairly common. I have played several games where I have gotten 15+ commander damage on someone when they have more that 40 hp. At that point in the game, I am basically the only threat to that player so they hard focus me and take me out.

[@robmitchell3039]

@@lukebortot7625 honestly, if I have someone running heavy life gain, I mostly ignore them, until I can one shot them with commander damage.

[@Icameron259]

This is very true, and it's exactly what I sign up for when I play Tomer's budget Dimir Poison deck.

[@psychedelicsewell]

You and trinket mage have cost me a lot of hours making my decks more fun to play. Thank you for that.

[@MeZimm]

Many years ago I played a game at a convention where a guy was really eager to try out his Ezuri, Claw of Progress deck. I kinda casually mentioned "oh yeah, there's a two-card infinite combo with him and Sage of Hours, have you heard of that?" His response was a "you caught me" smile and a defeated-sounding "... yeah... that's in here..." It was otherwise a fun casual +1+1 counter simic deck, but I remember feeling weird about how to handle to it since I never knew which turn he might try to trigger the combo. It's nice to have some validation for that feeling, all these years later.

[@michaelsparks1571]

More accurately "Stop turning your Commander into an 'Oops I win' combo piece in otherwise lower power decks".

[@jacobd1984]

"A Grand Experiment in Mildly Rigged Democracy", huh? Thanks, I'd been trying to come up with a name for my Tivit deck.

[@jeezuhskriste5759]

It’s nice that GEMRD is a pronounceable acronym, too.

[@Omenshaper]

We need a Benny skin for Tivit. "The truth is, the game was rigged from the start."

[@shayneweyker]

Alternative title: Commit To the Bit

[@garcardosotan6172]

Alternate title. Be boring! Every deck i have played or played against never has just 1 strategy. That is like only worrying about Najeela attacking with other warriors on the field. She is gonna die, a lot. This is just bad advice... Does this guy offer good advice? The first line of why not to add some random 1 card for a combo... Your opponent doesn't know you can do that? So what?

[@asheep9470]

​ @garcardosotan6172 You seem to be missing the entire point of this channel- it's not about winning as many games as possible, it's about creating decks using statistics and social engineering to get unique but consistent plays that the whole table will enjoy

[@garcardosotan6172]

@@asheep9470 Yea, no, I got that with how he is using the % from EDHREC. But he is missing other steps, he has two steps in the video trying to explain why Acolyte of Bahamut is bad. Does the card work in the tribe. Fair enough, but then he asks. IS IT GOOD ON PAPER. Um, yes. it's a two drop in the most consistent color in your deck. Then he goes on to claim your commander shouldn't be a factor... This though. He is saying. HAVE ZERO innovation. Don't put in 1 card that can hit it off spectacularly with our commander, why... Your opponents might not have thought about it... I am sorry, but that is awful advice. Have the people I play with love seeing the weird combos I pull off that is surprisingly outside of my deck strategy. Bad advice is bad advice. I mean, when he shows Arabo, roar of the world. He is missing that Sovereign Okinau Ahou makes him so, so much better and is still a cat. Commander is popular cause you can make innovations and no strategy is fully considered bad. The last video I watched was about how powerlevel doesn't matter. What a crock. EVERY, and I mean EVERY SINGLE OTHER CHANNEL talks about how powerlevel matters and with RULE 0, you should ASK FOR POWERLEVEL. I cannot watch such terrible advice.

[@OsthatoAlfakyn]

@@garcardosotan6172cool, why are you here

[@garcardosotan6172]

@@OsthatoAlfakyn Cause the channel was shown to be in recommends. But after watching three videos of bad advice, I had to say something.

[@camoking3609]

In all fairness to the Altraxa poison players, it is by far the most flavorful and lore accurate way to play her You might be archenemy, but perfection always comes at a cost, so all hail Phyrexia

[@comlitbeta7532]

This whole explanation of the dread of inevitable death by poison really puts in word why i love my atraxa poison deck. I am the arch villain. Stop me if you can.

[@doomygoomy6347]

@@comlitbeta7532as the mollusk has decreed, it is okay to run a foreseeable and threatening gameplan so long as you are open to defending it.

[@nestrior7733]

See that's the thing about that deck. If you know and embrace it, it is very clear what is going to happen. But a lot of casual commander can be very unfocused. That's what this video is about, ultimately. Your opponents will probably switch things up the moment you hit your powerful-but-not-your-gameplan combo that your commander helps/interacts with no matter how far along your actual gameplan is. Snail's "find ways to win your opponents will allow you to set up for" point. Which is probably why a lot of casual EDH decks run "too few" counter spells. You keep enjoying your villain arc. That deck sounds like a lot of genuine fun. Just pity the poor fools that only thought "Yeah, this is a nice addition that happens sometimes" without accounting for what will happen when it does.

[@davidbilich1708]

In all fairness to atraxia players they are terrible people.

[@dude8351]

@@davidbilich1708 as an Atraxa player i agree

[@dimitriid]

I usually tell people combos are easy, its defending the combos and negating other people's combos where most of your budget turns your deck into cedh.

[@0rcd0c]

Also the speed at which you can assemble your combo i.e. mana base and tutors

[@nathanvalleewilson2001]

I wanna say that your videos have changed the way I approach building decks and I'm more fulfilled by the decks I build

[@potatogrease2420]

I feel the exact same way, I look at deck building entirely differently

[@maxcrist9654]

Same for me. Made my decks a lot better and WAY more fun.

[@Sir_Basil]

I WANT to say that Snail's videos have changed the way I build decks, but if I'm totally honest I'm still a combo-building, archenemy-inducing, hyper-competitive degenerate.

[@khay0z]

@@maxcrist9654I agree, could I ask what made the the desk more fun for you?

[@jonathonmenth3901]

He’s really good at explaining in-depth topics.

[@Swoozman]

Ive had a Kaalia player ask me why I blew up their boots and then killed Kaalia the following turn. Answer is, I know your deck cant do anything without the commander swinging. “So you’re not going to let me play the game” Not if you make it so easy, I guess.

[@700pierwizard4]

“Git gud”

[@PhoenicopterusR]

Kaalia is super all or nothing, not sure why they just expected people to let them run away with the game. Gotta work hard to protect those kinds of commanders.

[@hughjass5494]

"I'm going to make you play at the same speed as the rest of us, if I can."

[@robomelon314]

The problem is that people say they just want to "do the thing" for their deck, but when you build your deck such that letting you do the thing means letting you win, you're either going to win, or not have a good experience with the deck.

[@austintomlinson7863]

One Kaalia player I was playing against got pissy and scooped after I counterspelled their commander (with Anger in their graveyard). Since they scooped, it presented an opportunity for me to ask them what would have happened if I didn't counter their commander. Without a minute of self-reflection, they were happy to let me know that they were planning on dropping an Avacyn, Angel of Hope and then Armageddon the table. I am so sick of that deck.

[@hamsterfromabove8905]

The idea that to win a game of EDH you must devise a wincon that you're opponents will see coming and choose to allow in favor of disrupting other players. That's a very good thought that relatively concisely explains a concept I've been thinking about. The first person to pop off rarely wins assuming the decks are within similar power ranges. No one can 1v3 in a fair match. So don't play in a way that makes your opponents all agree you are the biggest threat unless you are actually ready to be the threat they see you as.

[@grahamlarsen2082]

I agree and this is also something I’ve learned to appreciate. If you’re behind, you can always sneak out of the pack and snag a win out from people’s noses rather than try to do so as the archenemy

[@aradraugfea6755]

Someone I don't play with often, but consider a friend basically only shows up with an Elfball Deck. Mindful that board wipes exist, he'll only really get his "BEHOLD MY MASSIVE ARMY" shit going the turn before or the turn he intends to throw down the Craterhoof. Nobody's building to counter it, but if I pull a "Counter target creature spell" card, you bet your ass I'm keeping the mana open and kepeing that card in hand until he pulls his thing. He also tends to do it at the moment when the math works out so he exactly kills the table. I've Dispatched the Craterhoof and still gotten taken out of the game, but slowed him down enough for the rest of the table to compete. His wife, for a long while, only had this Exquisite blood deck. Two copies of basically the same 2 card combo... oh, and one part of that was in her command zone. She ran no enchantment removal, almost no interaction, the deck was about as all in on this one win con as you could get without running a shit ton of tutors. She stopped playing ibt because, yeah, until those combos went off, it was just this little life gain deck and probably the least threatening thing on the board. Some people, for politics reasons, would let her do her thing, and if the combo came out (Which she did admittedly always have to draw into), GG. But there were also players that ran enough interaction that they weren't sitting on a beast within all game IN CASE. Oh, your commander's out? Murder. Oh, someone's trying to cast Curiosity with Niv'mizzet the NEXT TURN? Swords. They could spot remove all day, the opportunity cost for making sure the lifegain deck didn't take over the game at random was low, so they'd always keep her pinned down, but because the deck was all in on that one specific thing, this mean she basically just sat there accomplishing nothing. Ultimately lead to a 2 hour conversation that Snail has honestly summarized nicely across a few different videos. She has a handful of significantly more Timmy decks she plays now instead, saving Dina for high power tables.

[@arandombard1197]

Basically, when you make a move on the throne, you need to already have won by the time the king finds out.

[@hanschristopherson8056]

Another reason to not play atraxa infect is not having to deal with that one player complaining about how infect os broken in commander and needs to be twenty counters

[@camoking3609]

I almost want to allow people to rule 0 it to 20, so i can play Vishgraz the doomhive The Commander that would get buffed by poison requiring 20 counters

[@Kryptnyt]

@@camoking3609 Instead of being dead, your opponents give you more power; not sure if this is a buff!

[@MisterWebb]

My Atraxa deck uses only cards with art by Rebecca Guay. It’s called “Persecuted Artist”.

[@ashmarten2884]

People just start complaining when they see atraxa, infect or not. Like bro, it’s 2024. My uncommon bulk legends are more powerful than her.

[@eggs8021]

I don't hate infect because it's strong, I just hate it because it's annoying

[@johnsmith-dn8kv]

Big agree here. I've had some people tell me to include this or that combo in my zombie tribal deck, but I feel as if what you mentioned here would occur- my zombie commander would turn from "just another zombie value piece" into "Kill on sight combo enabler".

[@hunterreid7169]

😮😮😮

[@sandwichboy1268]

My playgroup made a rule that you have to let us know about your infinite combos before the game. This, in turn, discourages those infinite combos, as they have to say "yeah, I'm running a 2 card infinite combo with my commander" and get rightly focused down from turn 1.

[@salubrioussnail]

I'll typically ask my opponents what their general gameplan is if I don't know their deck, and likewise I'll tell my opponents the entire contents of my deck and how it wins. Opposing decks shouldn't be a mystery, it just makes the game worse.

[@Graatand]

What about non-infinite game winning combos? 🤔

[@associatedixon]

Its why non-deterministic combos are fun. If I don't know if I win, then you are usually too late to stop it when I do

[@matheuscomparini1663]

​@@Graatandstill a game winning combo, doesn't rally matter

[@ShjadeNexayre]

@@salubrioussnail I have to admit I don't understand this point of view. I don't play MtG anymore, and never played Commander, but I'm assuming from the video and comments that it's generally played in an atmosphere of "we're here to enjoy the game, not to win the game," and that's good! I like that mentality. The part I don't understand is suggesting surprises aren't enjoyable. Are you really telling me the group wouldn't be blown away/have a good laugh when they discover that a deck they thought they had figured out was running an ulterior gameplan the whole time when it's sprung on them? Especially in an environment where winning isn't everyone's primary goal anyway? Why wouldn't that be a moment for laughing about it with an air of "Oh man I thought you were going for X and when Y dropped I felt my heart stop for a second"-the sort of twist that comes up in great boardgames when you realize someone who seemed behind most of the game has been building up one of the alternative win conditions and is suddenly threatening to sneak the game out from under the leader? It comes off sounding a bit like "This isn't a format where we play to win, so you shouldn't play a deck that might make me suddenly lose," which is a bit...confusing, at least from an outsider's perspective. If you're there for the love of the game, why is that a problem?

[@edhdeckbuilding]

agree with this methodology. however, your zaxara (or whatever combo commander) will always be a target because the combo exists. regardless if you're playing it or not.

[@ShawThing323]

You're absolutely right if you're playing at an LGS against randoms, but if you're playing in a consistent pod where each player learns (or at least is willing to trust) the abilities of each player's deck, this method can work much better.

[@MisterWebb]

@@ShawThing323Snail does seem to be working on the assumption that one plays against the same pod every time. That’s not my experience at all, so his content does not resonate with me as much as with all the fanboys here. I must say, however, that I am envious of everyone who gets to play with friends instead of randoms. Finally, my Zaxara deck uses only cards with alliterative card names (so no Freed from the Real or Pemmin’s Aura) and it still slaps.

[@salubrioussnail]

Valid point! My theorizing here presumes opponents that care about the contents of your deck, but people do end up having memorable experiences with certain commanders that tend to color their view on the commander as a whole going forward.

[@TheLuckySpades]

This explains rather well why I split my Chatterfang deck into a combo deck that is highly tuned for said combos and a token spamming overrun deck The latter has no tutors, no infinite combos at all simply to avoid the "thing A" and "thing B" issue you mention because that was exactly what was happening to the deck for me My Master Multiplied deck has a few infinite combos, just like your example Combat Celebrant is in some of them, but all the pieces individually play into the decks strategy very well and so far it hasn't felt like it is running into the issues that Chatterfang had before

[@jacobesterson]

I just run Chatterfang as a no inf-combo aristocrats deck and it works very well. First deck I ever made and it feels satisfying to win with algebra. Feels like a storm deck a lot of the time cause most of the individual cards can combo off of each other in some way.

[@zakumo9235]

I have a combo Miirym and recently made a "swing dumb dragons" version; while combo Miiryms my favorite it's fun to go back to unga bunga swing dumb dragon and do it again and again

[@vileluca]

Lmao. This video is calling out a person I used to play with and it's hilarious.

[@RoscoeKane]

Overdependence on the commander is a major issue a lot of decks have. The commander enabling both a fun game mechanic and a combo is very similar to decks that play a lot of cards that are great with the commander but worthless without the commander. Enough of those good only with commander cards, and your opponents will think "I don't have to fight the player on anything other than having the commander in play. If I focus on that, I can pretty much let them do whatever else they want and not worry about it." Which leads the person with the deck overly dependent on the commander never having their commander and staring at a hand of garbage turn after turn not having fun.

[@PensFan96]

Counter Point If you play a deck, you need to understand what baggage comes with your commander even if you aren't playing an infinite. Don't cry if Tivit gets removed. I *have* to assume that you are playing the "good cards" from a tactics perspective. Like, I don't care that you say that you aren't playing X card. The deck will probably try to approximate what that X card does. I'm not letting Urza Lord High Artificer stick around... or Zaxara, or Jhoira, or Yawgmoth, or whatever pushed legendary you pull out.

[@Currywurst4444]

You never play someone again?

[@Snipfragueur]

Litterally my second commander game, playing with a pod with slightly upgraded precon, played Tevit tinking it was just a fun voting commander, put Time Sieve because EDHREC knows best, procede to win turn 5 with the infinite combo. I did not realize I was doing an "infinite" until after Time Sieve resolved

[@cigbhungus3359]

The EDHREC channel actually made a video (think it’s called Why Your Deck Doesn’t Click or something like that) discussing this exact problem with Tivit. That card is the victim of such poor design. Now, the ward is part of it, but the crux of it is one half of the card says “mid-power funny vote deck” and the other says “high-power/cEDH infinicombo deck”. If you’re trying to build casually and you’re not really thinking about what power level you want your deck to go at, you can easily end up including Time Sieve and other combo pieces and/or blink effects, and before you realize it, your “mid-power vote deck” has morphed into a high-power monstrosity. Then you go out to play, sit down against a bunch of precons/low-power decks, and accidentally pub stomp them like a comatose goomba.

[@draketheduelist]

In my experience, there's a phenomenon as unfortunate as it is inevitable in that anything that _can_ combo, given long enough time, will combo. Zombies in particular are terrible at this. Gravecrawler exists. Gravecrawler combos with a ham sandwich. You have no reason to not be using Gravecrawler. The only way to guarantee you don't combo out of nowhere is to kill you. Therefore you are a marked man and a lethal threat no matter how many land drops you consecutively missed. Some commanders are just like this. Chulane. Siona. Kinnan. Korvold. Gitrog. Prossh. Urza. Heck, some _cards_ are like this. Who plays Mikelus the Unhallowed or Deadeye Navigator and doesn't go for _that_ combo? The cards are so expensive that the only reason you'd own them in the first place is if that was _your_ plan, too. That's where I disagree with the video. If it is possible for you to combo, others will assume that you will. That call isn't up to you. People will assume degeneracy the moment they see something that they think they once saw on a list of combos, particularly if they don't quite recognize it. The degeneracy of your deck is assumed. You might as well live up to it. Do unto others before others do unto you.

[@Currywurst4444]

Why do you have to play gravecrawler? Removing one (or two/three) cards out of 100 shouldn't inhibit your deck and will probably lead to more enjoyable games. After one or two games the whole group will know what your deck is actually like.

[@draketheduelist]

@@Currywurst4444 People will assume you play Gravecrawler, and therefore you will be treated as if you play it whether you run it or not. If you claim to not use Gravecrawler, you are admitting that either (1) your deck is jank or (2) you're lying and you're trying to sneak a win. Commander is very much a social game, and deliberately BSing one another is practically a part of the game. And if nobody trusts you, why lie? Just play the card. You might as well. It's the same reason "don't worry, it's a 7" is such a meme and a joke. It's like playing Among Us and proclaiming that you aren't sus. Of course that's what you'd say... Not to mention that just because Gravecrawler doesn't come up in a game doesn't mean you don't run it. Maybe you didn't draw it. Maybe you had to use your tutors to deal with more immediate problems. Maybe you had to get rid of the Rest in Peace first. Maybe you were waiting out a known Bojuka Bog. Or maybe somebody else popped off faster. It happens. The average deck only pops off 25% of the time. Not doing so doesn't make you harmless. There are plenty of reasons why your pod not seeing Gravecrawler does not necessarily mean you didn't have it. The only way to know for sure is to either let the zombie player pop off (thus proving they _do_ have Gravecrawler) or search the deck yourself.

[@HZAres]

I don't know, building a deck that doesn't lose to interaction is also a part of the game.

[@matheuscomparini1663]

Sure, but good luck playing around 3 other people's interaction AND stopping other eventual threats from them being the priority 1 target at the table.

[@SilentGe42]

Thats the reason why certain friends are always the archenemies and they sometimes don't even realize it, even after explaining this to them. It kills fun, sometimes, or at least for them.

[@ethanboyd2981]

This is exactly why I don't run Exquisite Blood in my Dina deck, and I start every pregame conversation with Dina explaining this.

[@seveneightlp]

yup. my dina has plenty of combos that can end the game on the spot, but none of them involve pieces that aren’t already on a level with what the deck is already doing.

[@wesleymclain9146]

When I explain that I’m not playing “that combo” or “that deck”, I’m still trying under suspicion. No clue why. I gain nothing by lying.

[@winter945]

If I play a deck with partner malcom and red, then glinthorn buccaneer is seperate from my deck to show my opponents I am not running the card. I wanted to play temur and play pirates, I am not playing infinites here

[@samcarpenter7104]

Same for me but with Tivit and Time Sieve/Deadeye navigator.

[@baval5]

I always like to build my decks as "if I was this commander, what cards would I use?". Sometimes this results in decks where my commander is relatively redundant because the cards I choose are ones similar to his own effect, but I have a good time with the roleplay of it and I think its the intended spirit of the game.

[@rastrisfrustreslosgomez544]

Hahaha that's the spirit!

[@wat_omy]

It’s a big problem I’ve noticed recently where the average casual deck has increased in power level significantly, I used to play cedh and have a strong casual deck which was typically the “strongest” deck at any given table. In the last few years my “strong casual” decks have been just average

[@deifiedtitan]

Poison is a great alternative win con specifically because it’s out in the open. There’s only a few cards that can get you from 0-10 in a single turn so the majority of the time you have presented a clock that’s a rough equivalent to an unblockable 4/x creature hitting you once per turn. With a lot of combos your options as the opponent are to either play blue or remove the player regardless of actual threat. Visible clocks like Atraxa, although they feel bad in the moment, are far more fair than a good portion of decks solely due to that transparency.

[@OmegaFerretMusic]

the snail giveth

[@EnRandomSten]

And the snail taketh (down your combo piece commander)

[@disappointedmom6176]

but most importantly, the snail teacheth (us regular idiots how to play EDH correctly)

[@arclight3213]

Months ago when I first discovered the channel, I pitched the idea of an atraxa poison counters deck which attempts to win exclusively by proliferation: one or two counters per player, and proliferation the rest of the way. I still want to do this, though you lay bare the issue with doing so in this video: advertising to my opponents that my deck makes poison puts a target on Atraxa. Fortunately, I think the best way to solve this is by having an immense amount of proliferation redundancy. Maybe as many as 15 pieces, as well as a suite of counterspells, with the goal being "surely they cant get rid of them all". Along those lines, I'm probably thinking: ~40 lands (4 colors is pretty greedy) ~15 proliferation sources ~10 counterspells ~10 ramp spells ~15 infect sources ~5 recursion effects (to get my trash out of the graveyard) ~5 draw spells It would require some tuning irl, but I think I like this outline

[@victorvilla8924]

That's a cool take. I wish my experience could support it. Anytime I play at a card store, people will lie about their decks and pubstomp the table. Has happened everytime. So I just include something to deal with those players. Plus, the expectations of others are not my problem. I'll be archenemy if it gives me a chance to win, where in the opposite isn't always fun. Maybe it's just that I've been playing since before commander was a format and playing to win is just a habit I developed from standard. It doesn't matter really anymore, I have a play group and we all go in with the expectation of we're all trying to win. Sometimes it's a combo, sometimes it's not. It is nice when people are honest about wanting to play to win. But I really agree with being consistent with how you plan to play the deck. Great video

[@LogoMotive11]

Honestly I think every single MTG content creator needs to make a video on this subject. There is a very large number of experienced players I come across that dont understand the concepts you discuss here and its something everyone needs to learn. Great vid!

[@GabeBassist]

Dude, following you was one of my best decisions ever regarding deck building

[@lloydnoid6506]

Unless you're playing Orvar, the All Form. Then it's physically impossible to not accidentally make him an infinite combo piece.

[@Joebob31100]

I always love your videos, because you are the only guy I've seen who talks about how a deck feels to play against, and taking that into account when deckbuilding. People sometimes poke fun at my deckbuilding because I purposely don't run some powerful staples, like not playing Smothering Tithe in my mono-white enchantress deck. But I do that to try and avoid unnecessary hate from the rest of the table. If you're trying to fly under the radar and play good, clean Magic, you have to take other peoples's opinions of your boardstate into account. And most I've never heard another edh youtuber bring it up

[@wesleymclain9146]

Snail: “Stop turning your commander into a combo piece” Me, a combo player: “No”

[@semi-decent1844]

I think a lot of people should consider how certain cards change threat assessment so drastically. I feel similarly to land based decks where they can do their thing no problem but as soon as they play a clinging mists the entire game changes around that card and needing to deal with it. So if you want to run a fun silly lands deck don't run cards like that

[@laytonjr6601]

Oh I'm just playing a landfall deck that tutors Field of the Dead on turn 3 don't worry

[@victortimore341]

A lot of players see Commander as a 1v3 format, that's wrong and that's sad. It's a last-man-standing format. Combo is by nature the most effective strategy in Commander. Because if you just grind advantage turn after turn you are just going to become the target of 3 players and no deck can survive this. Atraxa is a good example in that regard, you can't win on the spot, you win very slowly with poison and by threatening all 3 opponents at the same time, you end-up 1v3 and die. The best strat is to be unthreatening and very defensive until you resolve a combo and win on the spot. And I'm not judging if this is a good or a bad thing, that's just the best strat in a free-for-all format : don't make yourself a target and win on the spot.

[@shawzaam]

"there are plenty of cases I'd be fine with tivit resolving" Bad take, never let tivit resolve.

[@samcarpenter7104]

As a Tivit player 1000% agree.

[@codysorenson4298]

Stop making your commander a combo piece. Here's my combo commander deck at the end.😂

[@matthewgagnon9426]

The video is more about not having your deck be one thing, but also including a different plan that's WILDLY more powerful than the rest of the deck but isn't the focus of the deck.

[@codysorenson4298]

@@matthewgagnon9426 yeah I got that part. It's just funny cause of title and the end

[@yorokobeshitbag4618]

Very important to remember that pretty much none of this applies if you aren’t playing against cowards. Know your playgroup before pretty much else. (Or play CEDH. Skip the “uwu poor baby” syndrome and general “oh no what about the social contract” nonsense with the simpler format!)

[@MageSkeleton]

This is a great argument for those who look to just play more casually. it always bothered me that someone would actually want to play casual but they play a commander option that screams "i can end the game when i feel like it" and especially when that player doesn't want to inform the other players about any combo pieces but also if that player gets ignored and allowed to do whatever they want. it's always really strange when your sitting there being targeted and focused when your not even capable of doing much of anything, meanwhile a whole other player is being made "king" through not being targeted.

[@grahamlarsen2082]

So true! I feel like people in casual win more when they stay off the radar at the right times until they have what they need to really pop-off and go for the win. There are tons and tons of games where someone jumps out to an early lead and presents themselves as a threat, only to get focused down and die first.

[@The0m0fNom]

Love the content Snail! Got really excited when I saw this fresh in my feed. Your ideas have been really helpful in shaping vibes/experiences within my pod. One small complaint, that could be an issue in my end, is that I can only set the video quality to 360p. 720p would greatly assist my eyeballs

[@JiorujiDerako]

KZbin takes time to render the higher resolutions, so if you catch a video right after it's been uploaded, most likely only 360p has finished processing, and the higher resolutions are still encoding. It's two hours later on my end and I have 1080p as an option, for example

[@The0m0fNom]

Ah, thanks!

[@Lukaz2009]

You come off as an absolute contrarian. You praise a deck like Niv-Mizzet, Parun using its commander as a combo piece, but tear apart decks that do the exact same thing with their own commanders. You cannot have your cake and eat it too, sir. A Zaxara deck running Freed from the Real deck will be running creatures that can tap for two mana, including at least one Blue, so they can generate infinite mana. Zaxara is the best target for Freed from the Real since it can generate infinite of all your colours and is effectively is always in your opening hand. But if you are relying solely on Zaxara for that combo then you deserve to get punished accordingly. A Tivit voting deck has no win condition on its own. Period. Time Sieve gives them a win condition that pairs with their commander very nicely that they can tutor for when they need to end the game. JUST LIKE YOUR MALCOLM DECK! And they can also use their commander as a card draw or mana battery engine, so your Malcolm deck is no better if you ask me. The stigma around poison counters just needs to end already. I am getting sick of people getting salty over them because it requires far more work than just commander damage. We don't get to run four copies of Blighted Agent and cheap pump spells. So a commander like Atraxa is sort of required to push an infect deck over the finish line. Is it bull-headed card design? Absolutely. But infect is not that good in commander without something as insane as Atraxa, so I see her as a necessary evil. And an infect deck will be running more proliferate sources than just Atraxa.

[@sunbro7853]

I think he was mainly talking about the Voting Tivet deck but winning not winning with voting but shoe-horning the combo kill win into it. The vote deck should win by voting so cards like Expropriate would be better. The Malcolm deck race to get Time Seive to win and every body knows it’s doing that where the Tivet Vote deck votes, play’s the Time Seive and combo kills.

[@Lukaz2009]

@sunbro7853 When did it become taboo for decks to have means of winning on the spot? If a deck is built to only have a single method of winning, I'm sorry to say, but that is just bad deckbuilding. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. In the case of Tivit voting, your win condition is a single card. And no one, as long as they have the power to stop it, are allowing an Expropriate to resolve. And what happens of you don't draw into it? You just lose! And the end of the day, Magic is a competitive game. The objective is to win. So a Tivit voting deck having Time Sieve as backup is not an out-of-left-field win-con. It is the pilot of the deck understanding the weaknesses of their theme and putting in a contingency plan for when plan A fails. The problem is when people play the card as soon as they find it instead of saving it for plan B.

[@salubrioussnail]

I included Niv-Mizzet/Curiosity in a visual as a shorthand for dedicated combo decks. My position on Niv-Mizzet is quite similar to my position on Tivit: if you're building it as a combo deck or a high-power control deck, run the Curiosity. If you're building it as a mid-power spellslinger deck or something similar, don't run the Curiosity.

[@Lukaz2009]

@salubrioussnail So this goes back to my previous comment. It is now taboo to have a contingency plan if plan A (your decks primary game plan) fails? That is such a laughable idea. Every commander deck needs a plan B, because this is a competitive game. And I'm not talking cEDH. Magic, including casual EDH, is a competitive game. Unless you are playing a deck that is designed to King-make another player, you are building a deck to be able to win. So having a card in your deck that can enable you to win on the spot, especially when it combos with your commander, is fine even if the deck doesn't focus on said combo.

[@TheMattmatic]

​@@Lukaz2009 The other players will threat assess based on how your deck performs at its best, not at its worst. If you win out of nowhere in a game, the next 10 games with that deck your playgroup will threat assess with that win in mind. If your deck is using its commander for "fair value" 95% of the time, it can suck to always get the commander removed because you have the potential to go infinite out of nowhere. This has nothing to do with a plan B being "taboo" or anything like that.

[@AIMLESS-NAMELESS]

Over the last 2 weeks I’ve been working on a written version of my “deck building philosophy” and haven’t my recently found your videos I now have to make sure I’m not actively plagiarizing you lol. Great content

[@MrGaiakid]

honestly I dont really understand this. Are you telling people not to run game winning combo's in their decks? Like, I get not jamming in random two card "I win" combo's into a deck that has zero synergy with the deck you made, but do people actually do that? I dont think ive ever seen anyone running combo cards in their deck that fit in with the main theme of the deck they were playing, or at least synergized with the rest of the deck in some way.

[@illuxionist8765]

I'm glad you mentioned this - it's a lesson I learned the hard way with Ezuri, Claw of Progress and Sage of Hours. Great synergy right - get 5 exp counters and you have infinite turns! Now everyone knows you can potentially do that every game after seeing it a few times. And well, it stopped being fun when I got focused out on 3 exp counters and a bunch of weenies because "you go infinite on 5 counters." Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

[@MisterWebb]

Bruh, you need more decks.

[@alexscott8799]

The magnificent mollusk maketh magic

[@jamieweidhaas7986]

One of my favourite mtg channels tbh, love the vid

[@theannouncer55]

This is the main reason why I cut Curiosity from my Niv deck. I only drew into it so many times, and when I didn't it just hung in the air over my opponents and they wouldn't let Niv stick. But I just wanted to play my boy so I dropped the card. I also like watching the wheels spin on that deck and curiosity didn't really let me do that, since it was just "here's one card I win."

[@the.dirt.man.]

Quite literally the only MTG KZbinr I’m subbed to.

[@MrFlame-zk5cy]

6:09 I have had to preface multiple times that I am just here to rig democracy in my favor not cause a temporal loop please don't bully me

[@williamkrause9968]

I feel like the focus of this video is rather confused. First you say combos with the commander are fine. The you say that combos with other cards in your deck are fine. Then you back pedal and say that combos with your commander are bad. What is going on? I would say If a card is in your deck, it is part of the plan. If you have multiple avenues, your deck is gonna be more versatile but less consistent. That is the trade of. But it is your plan

[@shoopy44]

Jeff the Great gotta catch a ban next season what was R&D thinking

[@guywithaguitar8521]

for me it usually ends up with me asking my Pod what they are running. one of my friends runs a Godo Bandit Warlord deck, and always makes sure to announce that he does not plan on going infinite with helm of the host. instead its an interesting tribal deck that uses decent red Samurai, Maskwood nexus to turn your other red creatures into Samurai so they can have extra combat steps. fun deck overall. I have a casual Tymna + Kraum deck, and in many peoples heads who enjoy CEDH this screams sweaty blue farm deck. but actually this is just my Dark Jeskai deck. running a bunch of cards like Radiant Flames, Painful Truths, Monastery Mentor, Mantis Rider, all to relive one of my favorite decks from standard. If you have a good group of friends, make sure to let them know about your deck limits, so you can get your casual combos off. rather than getting your commander blown off the field for existing, or becoming the archenemy because of the colors you run.

[@oscarguzman3017]

I see a lot of folks saying that being the archenemy with Atraxa poison counters is a flavor win. Unfortunately, commander is a social game, and no one wants to deal with that. You won't have room to complain if you're always instantly deleted. If you find spectating that fun, more power to you.

[@MisterWebb]

I’d really rather to crash and burn trying to pull off a dank combo than sit through a stax-y game. This is why I like red.

[@camoking3609]

If they can't handle being Archenemy, they weren't worthy of Phyrexia's glory to begin with

[@rusty5707]

A deck building live stream would be interesting. Basically just stream yourself building a new commander deck from scratch walking through your process live.

[@ExistToComment]

"If you choose a combo commander, expect people to expect the combo, even if you're not running it". Message so blindingly obvious I didn't think it needed to be said, but I sat through 5 mins to watch so I guess entertaining vid

[@wesleygrootjans8906]

Great video. I often play commander with my brothers and from among us, I definitely spend by far the most time creating my decks trying to make them synergistic, original and fun for the whole table. It's very frustrating to put such effort into decks trying to get everybody to have a good time, to then be taken out on turn 4 by kaalia putting into play an attacking master of cruelties Edit: the master of cruelties is not at all the primary game plan, it's just a random card in the 99 which he added because he thought "why not, if my commander is kaalia anyways, might as well add this insta-kill option"

[@Mmoll1990]

How is Niv-Mizzet+Curiosity any better or less of a 1 card combo than Tivet+Time Sieve?

[@robomelon314]

It's not. The point of the video is that Niv decks are usually pretty up front with the game-plan being combo, and since the deck-builder knows that's the primary focus, it's a consistent plan, so keeping niv off the board is both logical and shouldn't surprise the owner. For Tivet, if the player has a time sieve in the deck, the only logical thing to do is to keep tivet under control. But if they don't have it in hand, then it feels really bad, since without it they're just a midrange value deck. It's almost an argument for deck consistency. If your deck is a fairly powerful 8/10 every single time, you can either play knowing you'll be archenemy, or play with other powerful decks and have good games. If your deck is mostly just a pile of esper good stuff that's generally a 5/10, that every 10 games or so gets infinite turns, then opponents HAVE to treat it as if it'll give you infinite turns EVERY game, since doing otherwise isn't logical. It's a similar reason why I really enjoy my Eowyn deck, since it's average game starts by playing around 2-3 value pieces/ramp, gets the commander out, and starts to gradually build a board, while protecting it using a bunch of phase-outs. I can play it pretty reasonably without the commander if I get another source of card advantage out, since it's basically Jeskai human value pile. What it doesn't do is win out of nowhere. The board state + hand size is a very good indicator of whether I'm doing well or not. If I have 5 cards in hand and my commander with 2-3 non-tokens on the field, I'm pretty comfortable. If I'm at 3 cards with just a creature or two in play, I'm not really going to be a threat for another 2-3 turns at least. If I was instead playing a bunch of extra combats, token doublers, and the extra combat enchantment that combos with her directly, I could be a threat the turn she comes down, depending on my mana available.

[@booradley1138]

This is why I just play 1v1 commander. You can actually play the game according to the written rules, instead of endlessly debating the "unwritten rules" of what the right way to play commander is. You can actually play a fun, interactive game instead of the old "do nothing obvious and hide my strategy until I can win in one turn" plan.

[@TheMattmatic]

I find commander to be highly interactive, and fun. The politics is part of playing the game, as it should be. Every multiplayer game is like this, since your opponents threat assessment can quickly turn a game into 3 v 1 which is very difficult to win.

[@tommottom2571]

Found your channel exidently wen searchin through the web Quite like it, thanks for looking at what you could call the mental side of mtg

[@sebastianahrens2385]

And then there's decks like Aesi or Kaalia, where there might not be a commander-combo waiting, but the card is SO aligned with the decks game plan that it's enough of a threat already. Problem here is, there is no "under the radar" way if playing it. Those decks just have to be built with removal in mind, and choosing such a commander requires you to accept these consequences. PS: Your content is amazing. Multiple layers deeper than most other channels, but thought through, structured and explained so nicely that it's easy to grasp.

[@ReasonableLee7154]

That's exactly how my Tormod deck operates. He's not necessary for the deck to function, but he is part of a combo

[@varsoonhks3211]

You'll never get me to retire Krark Sakashima

[@reanamet1901]

Zaxara was a very good example, I had to commit the crime of ruining a game's vibes once, before I realized Freed from the Real needs to not be in my Zaxara deck due to how I do and do not want to see it generally behave and be reacted to.

[@wolfmelonpan5858]

Hey dude, I love your videos! You made my love for mtg grow strong in a time when I was about to leave it. Also you try to show all perspectives during a game and that's something I'd never thought of! Also, would you try The Goose Mother as a Commander? I think you'd have fun

[@Krikenemp18]

_Laughs in commander with built-in pro-white+black_ For real though, love your deck-building advice. The #1 rule of commander imo is that it is a social format and you should build for it accordingly.

[@AMageOldAsDirt]

My highest winrate deck is Felisa, Fang of Silverquill. It runs no ramp, very little card draw, and most of the cards in the deck do basically nothing on their own. But all of those cards that look like they don't do anything are what win the game. So people just let them stick around and I win basically every game where I draw a sac outlet. Looking unassuming is VERY powerful.

[@JiorujiDerako]

I've had pretty good success with my Piru deck for similar reasons. It's an intentionally limited deck (I don't run any creatures that aren't legendary), my commander costs 8 mana, she needs to die to do her biggest effect, and her 'board wipe' often whiffs with everyone else having lots of legendaries. People frequently allow my deck to get that 8-drop commander out, and not only that, sit there and swing for a few turns, because it's relatively slow and rarely the table threat (or occasionally Piru is the answer to the _actual_ threat and they want her to blow up). But at the same time, that's a 7/7 with flying and lifelink dealing commander damage, and it's surprisingly common for people to just not bother answering her until they're suddenly one hit away from losing.

[@elbiggamehunter]

I had a Felisa deck that I loved, but never had much luck with it. Mind sharing your list?

[@MisterWebb]

Hahaha! Fancy playing to win! Hahaha!

[@matheuscomparini1663]

The same goes for my Liesa, shroud of dusk deck, It is full of cheap damage group slug effects that come under the radar, i've had so many opponents dying by casting living death and rise of the dark realms into my suture priest or bloodseeker

[@Wyldomark]

Really like the "figuring out ways to win that your opponents will allow you setup for" philosophy. I play Meren ever since she was released almost 10 years ago - love at first sight - it's my pet deck. I run zero combos on her. Even if adding a single Gravecrawler could turn on multiple combos. The enablers are not there for a combo win, there are there because they are very good value engines for a midrange aristocrat graveyard deck. Yawgmoth, Phyrexian Altar, all sorts of Blood Artist effects, Birthing Pod, Devoted Druid - these are great with my long term value plan, slow grind of resources. All this allows me to play those cards in any situation, knowing they might get removed for being too good, but never for being a scary combo piece. If someone else has a Craterhoof in the deck and has 5+ creatures in play already, the table is probably more concerned with them than with me.

[@barrinburg612]

This perfectly encapsulates why i dont have infinite loops in my ratadrabik deck. My play group always says oh itd be stronger, but im like it cant handle the heat if i put those in, not the way i want it built that is.

[@zalabimshala]

1 minute in. The title is something I'm interested in. Things he's not talking about: if your commander has an infinite combo that wins you the game (Niv-Mizzet + Curiosity) How he justifies it: "My best two decks involve my commander being used in a combo for this exact reason" Title of the video: "Stop turning your commander into a combo piece"

[@silentcalling]

Alternatively, don't build your deck in such a way that without the commander it does nothing. Also, be mindful of the pods you're playing in. I have a Tivit deck (how dare you call me, random internet person #38,7001) with exactly one tutor effect in Tamiyo's Journal, and yes - I have Time Sieve in the deck. The deck is formidable, but fair even by the admission of my pods that play against it. It draws the appropriate level of ire, and I completely understand when he gets targeted. That said, the deck isn't one-dimensional in "play Tivit, get Time Sieve, win game." It's not a combo deck, and it's definitely not meant to win exclusively through combo, but I also don't play it against preconstructed or similarly powered decks. Meanwhile, the "Timmy" player says they're playing Ghalta green stompy, then sac Ghalta on ETB to Greater Good to draw 12 and drop every single Eldrazi titan in play at once - but that's not a "combo" in the traditional sense, so it gets a pass and "Timmy" is left to believe he's not playing a combo deck simply because the game plan is to overrun the board with big creatures.

[@johna8670]

The classic KZbinr "I'll simply remove your commander/combo piece/whatever every time it hits the table!" line. Even the best prepared players don't have removal available at all times.

[@vittoriosavian9964]

And you shouldnt. Rng is part of the game. Sometimes you have removal, sometimes you dont have removal. It happens

[@leadpaintchips9461]

Have had more then half of my Mothman games where the table decided that he was a game ending threat when he hit the table on turn 3, and that he shouldn't participate in the match. Frankly never underestimate having 3 players worth of disruption being focused on a single player because they're spooked.

[@johna8670]

@@leadpaintchips9461 agreed. Apparently every KZbinr has three people's worth of interaction available at all times.

[@leadpaintchips9461]

@@johna8670 It's less talking about 'they' as an individual, and more of 'they' as in the opponents to the player playing the one creature wanting to be removed. Something that is known to win out of nowhere is going to have the game going from commander to archenemy, and that's what he (and other KZbinrs) are talking about.

[@johna8670]

@@leadpaintchips9461 then they would phrase it as such

[@wuvination6939]

This has really made me question the Treebeard deck I’ve been making. A lot of the deck has instant speed lifegain spells that don’t do anything without the commander or a few other lifegain matters pieces, and after watching the video it made me realize that instant speed life into instant speed counters on my trample commander is going to always be a threat. There’s also a scurry oak combo with my deco that while needing three cards is pretty easily enabled and happens instantly. You even used a similar get life make soldier example in the video. Not sure totally what to do now though haha

[@quantum6637]

6:15 This scenario is why when I play my casual Kiki-Jiki deck I explicitly tell everyone at the start that I’m not running any infinites.

[@enderstorm2460]

i definitely agree. I built a proliferate + counters deck with Perrie the Pulverizer, and I left poison counters out of the deck for the same reason you mentioned in the video. I felt like they would overshadow the other cool parts of my deck.

[@rileykwinn3527]

the video title was pretty misleading LOL, I build a lot of decks as combo decks centered around something the commander does, but these all definitely fall into the category you mentioned at the beginning of the video. Combo is harder to interact with than dirdly midrange, but I think it's just as valid a way to play, and at the same time if you are running combo you should expect your combo pieces to be removed and/or interacted with as soon as they hit the board

[@Urvos]

This is exactly what happened with my zaxara deck. It was my first commander deck that I built from scratch. I built it and had freed from the real and pemmin's aura. Wasn't thinking about this concept and it ruined the deck for me and my friends. It lead to me never playing it as it wasn't fun. I would almost always hit the combo as I had a couple tutors too. A bit different than your example, but basically I accidentally made it a combo deck rather than a hydra deck. Now that I've built a lot more decks and know what I want from it, I fixed it and it's just a fun hydra/x spells deck.

[@j.k.59]

I've had Inalla wizard tribal as a pet deck for years and I recently ran up against this exact issue when I added Wanderwine Prophets. Being able to win out of nowhere with a one-card infinite turns combo makes the deck more powerful on paper, but it also totally destroys the rest of the deck's strategy of playing defense until the lategame. Nobody is going to leave Inalla alone that long with the threat of sudden merfolk-based annihilation hanging in the air

[@zephyrstrife4668]

Honestly, the best part about commander is building multiple types of win states. My buddy has a Krenko goblin deck and he knows that the moment Krenko hits the board, hes dying, so he focuses on making other win conditions to make a bunch of Goblins or do enough other threatening stuff so that opponents use up their kill spells on those creatures so he can actually have Krenko hit the board.

[@Rucks01]

I had a Tivit deck based on the party mechanic, and Tivit was the mastermind who funded the adventurers

[@TangeloRotMG]

I really resonated with this topic, Snail. I used to build decks like this all the time, and then I was wondering why I was never having fun after my commander got removed 3+ times. Now I usually look for commanders that are super synergistic with my game plan, rather than a true engine/combo piece.

[@Vex-MTG]

Yeah, you lost me when you said essentially that you were 'okay with folks using their commander as a combo piece, but not if it's only a secondary combo piece'. Decks having options is a good thing. Let people play how they want. I'd get it if you were just generally against Commanders as combo pieces, because it speeds up the game and when you always essentially have a combo piece in hand, that makes 2 card combos into basically one card fishing expeditions. But nope, you're okay with that, just not if the deck also does other things. I mean... why?

[@jacobesterson]

Your point about Tivit applies to my favorite deck, which is a weird but highly effective mash of hug, storm, and mill. I was considering slapping Omniscience in as a wincon, but I decided against it in the end. My table knows I'm not dangerous until a certain number of very clear conditions have been fulfilled, so they tend to focus each other until I start to become more threatening. If I were to put Omniscience in, it'd enable me to practically win on the spot as soon as I play it, effectively ruining my deck's major gameplan. In a deck that relies on being the little guy until near the end of the game, having a one-card wincon can be ruinous. And before someone tries to argue that killing the hug player first is the smart thing to do, this isn't always the case. It's true that I'm giving the entire table more card advantage than you as an individual, but you really don't want to be the one guy who decided to antagonize the mono blue control deck. Either _everyone_ works together to destroy me from the beginning or I'm locking you down while those who are more willing to make deals gain even more of an advantage over you. It's a deck that's particularly hard to out-politic, but if it had one-card wincons it'd cease to function.

[@hellNo116]

Since I have an atraxa deck with plenty of toxic and poison effects I would argue that it is really important to build it right. My deck is a low economy deck that plays on average 12 spells per game. Every card is meant to be a big impact card. It is the opposite of a value or a token deck. Poison causes a constant pressure and sets a clock. Basically it is the ideal deck to teach new players threat assessment. Either you beat me or you die. And there is a countdown dice on the board for all you. Also it is very clear what cards are causing the issue since they are the cards that cause poison go up. And I am not exaggerating when I say that this deck operates on 12 spells on average. I have win against an elves deck that stormed off because no one managed to play a board wipe and I had glissa and the odric that gives all the keywords to all your creatures on board. I believe that such deck feels a very good spot in casual. And before people say I say so because I am the one piloting I have given the deck to friends who I consider really good players and played against it. It is fine. I would argue newer atraxa makes it a lot stronger since it is in the deck and it wraps the game around her even though the deck has no build in synergy with her in mind.

[@MisterWebb]

My Atraxa deck uses only cards with art by Rebecca Guay. It’s called “Persecuted Artist”.

[@DrLizaroj]

This perfectly sums up why my magar of the mgic strings deck started feeling bad after I added the two infinite-combo spells

[@Spacie_687]

i feel like this problem comes up because of the intersection between board games and trading cards that is commander. tcgs are very cutthroat usually they are played with 2 people so it makes sense that parody can get broken when it wasn't meant to especially in a 100 card singleton deck

[@MisterWebb]

*parity … and you’re correct - casual commander is fundamentally broken in that regard

[@J3P]

Shigeki is the commander that best exemplifies the lessons in this video.

[@yummines]

It's pretty funny that this video came up cause I actually was building a Queza, Augur of Agonies deck recently but decided against it. That commander has several ways to draw and drain infinitely, so it just being there basically threatens a thoracle or lab man victory (assuming you didn't win by draining several players anyways). It's pretty annoying when, as you mention, you just play your commander and it gets removed even though you didn't have a way to infinite. But at the same time it doesn't feel great when you didn't remove a commander on sight and you lose the next turn.

[@eebbaa5560]

was gonna write a long comment, but i decided to email you instead lol. anyway, just wanted to say that your videos have been nothing short of elucidating to me and they’ve inspired me to begin the undertaking of building my first-ever commander deck (outside of a slightly modified inalla precon i bought years ago)

[@deltadevlin]

My favorite kind of commander, and maybe this is an idea you can run with for a video, is a commander who generates enough value to snowball even if removed instantly. But also doesnt draw enough threat from other players to warrant instant removal. Roxanne, Starfall Savant is great at this for me.

[@ToastytheWulf]

This video made me take a good long look at my Zaxara deck. Not so I could ditch my Pemmin's Aura combo but rather so I could turn the deck into the infinite mana xspell deck it was always supposed to be. My take away from this video was not "dont put combo pieces in your deck just because they combo with your commander" but rather "recognize the power level of your commander and dont put a potentially explosive commander in a hydra tribal deck." I get the idea that this video is trying to convey, and i don't think it's necessarily wrong, but i think the broader issue with the examples given and other notable combo piece commanders is that they are just good cards even outside of combos. No one is gonna let a zaxara stay on the board for long regardless of if that player is running the combo or not. Malcolm could be used as a fun pirate tribal commander that has nothing to do with combo, im still not letting that thing stay on the board. Even if you arent using mikeaus to combo off he still says all your creatures basically have an extra life and to me, that warrents a counterspell. Tivit has built in ramp and card draw and is a flying 6/6 with ward 3, who in their right mind is letting that hit the battlefield under any circumstance? The advice given here, that you shouldnt play big scary combos and instead play more subtly, leads to an all bark no bite deck. If you wanna play a lower power deck and don't wanna get hard targeted, switch to a lower power commander. To use a weird analogy: its like bringing a gun to a knife fight and telling everyone "oh don't worry its not actually fully loaded" like, okay neat you are still getting stabbed first my dude.

[@ajaxender12]

I recently started playing Magic in paper - mostly Commander - and the LGS I go to is on the come down from more or less this effect. There's still the option to play 'competitively' for prizes but no-one takes it; the casual entry will get you a pack, maybe a promo, and at least a couple of games over the evening. The issue remains, even playing 'for fun' many of their decks are still oriented around "guaranteed win if unanswered" commanders, and still include various broken combo pieces like you mention. Some of the players expect answers or to be targeted, some not so much. But basically no-one was enjoying it, and it's pretty clear why, lol.

[@ryomi2370]

my best deck is a slimefoot and squee one, basically trying to loop my commander with some strong ETB effects (etali (LCI), rune-scarred demon, apex altisaur etc.). i ended up taking one of the best cards out, because it combo'd with my commander so well, even though it fit into the normal gameplan and would only infinite with other pieces. pitiless plunderer would effectively make my commander loops cost 1 instead of 4, but any token generation would make that instantly an infinite, and with the amount of tutors, and their reusable nature I could just grab the combo, and it was so much stronger than the beatdown aspect that it lead to the zaxara problem (killing me rather than my commander cuz i want him dead). it's definitely more fun now

[@Theanthill216]

I agree; i like jank and casual edh, also really rather play underwhelming or under appreciated commanders. Being a visible threat out the gate and making yourself arch enemy doesn’t seem like a good move.