STOP USING TARGET AMMO TO ZERO YOUR DUTY GUN

Рет қаралды 28,586

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 193

@angryandroid 3 ай бұрын

The real test is testing same weight ammo across different brands. My carry is 124gr Federal HST but I run 124gr Blazer with no discernable POI shift.

@EverythingFilmmaking 3 ай бұрын

Exactly

@A2DaZ210 3 ай бұрын

I just read your post. My carry ammo is also HST 124. I took my xmacro with radian barrel / comp to zero several days ago. My Winchester 9mm 124 ball ammo was shooting high left, about 3 inches away from my HST ammo. I had never seen that before. Sometimes I see maybe a 1 inch shift.

@gpmurf 3 ай бұрын

Agreed, running 124 HST for CCW and 124 Win NATO for training. Maybe a half inch difference at 10 yards but .50 to .70 cents per round difference. Not gonna worry about that at all. 115 is for plinking not training anyway.

@musicman1eanda 3 ай бұрын

I use the same exact ammo. I have noticed that I get less accuracy with my 124gr Blazer at distance (40+ yards), but that probably isn't a zero issue and is more likely just due to less quality control on the FMJ vs. the 124gr HSTs

@m.k.k.4931 3 ай бұрын

Not really. Different brands use different grains in powder measure. Keep it simple and consistent, you change carry ammo, shoot it. Shtty range ammo is just that and for training manipulation not accuracy.

@5.56Media 3 ай бұрын

Valid point! We used to do our quals cold start using duty ammo for two reasons: because that's how it really works on the street, and also to replace duty ammo with new rounds after quals.

@kyleparrish2026 3 ай бұрын

I remember explaining this to my buddies. They'd just never thought of it before. But the performance between brands and even grain weights says it all.

@robertserino1988 3 ай бұрын

Very good…FWIW - I use Federal 9mm HST 124 and Federal 9mm American Eagle 124…Reported same weight, velocity, and energy - with similar trajectories and feel…These seem to be a good match-up after several thousand of each.

@iboopedyournose 3 ай бұрын

Paul Harrell has a bunch of great vids that illustrate this! Good reminder for everyone to get out there and train with your individual firearms and ammo choices to figure out your POA/POI.

@KidCorporate 3 ай бұрын

RIP Paul

@cam2ss1le14 3 ай бұрын

This is a great accuracy test between duty and practice ammo. For LE officers, the main issue is getting their agencies to buy duty ammo to qualify with rather than ball practice ammo. It comes down to cost, and LE agencies from my experience do not like buying only duty ammo.

@Cabbagepatch66 3 ай бұрын

Now how do I convince my admin to give me an extra box of duty to zero to?

@MrJbedo 3 ай бұрын

Good freaking luck.

@EruCannotPass 3 ай бұрын

That's the neat part. You don't. Good luck only qualifying 4 times a year or less. If only Leo especially federal Leo didn't waste money. Everyone can only benefit from more training but they'd rather spend money elsewhere.

@DutchTraveler 3 ай бұрын

I’d say figure out the brand/manufacturer of the issued ammo and buy direct. Not sure you can convince your admin.

@EruCannotPass 3 ай бұрын

@@DutchTraveler That's the problem. If it isn't supplied by the agency to practice on your own time, then that's money out of our pocket to purchase ammo and with the way the economy is right now, that's a lot of money to spend on ammo if you truly wanna be a proficient shooter.

@DutchTraveler 3 ай бұрын

@@EruCannotPass I’m aware, but there isn’t much you can do otherwise.

@MrJbedo 3 ай бұрын

I usually do 2 witness marks. I run 124g blazer brass for training ammo and mark it with paint pen white, and then do blue for my Federal HST 147g

@thinkingagain5966 3 ай бұрын

Why would u train w 124 and carry 147

@megaman010391 3 ай бұрын

@@thinkingagain5966because they dont sell 147 ball ammo everywhere. 115 or 124 ball is more available.

@MrJbedo 3 ай бұрын

@@thinkingagain5966 it’s simply more expensive as well, it’s training ammo after all and the more rounds that I can shoot at the same cost. With miniscule difference the better. Plus I run 147g for my duty ammo and it’s mandatory for my department to run department approved ammo

@davidb9323 3 ай бұрын

I was always under the impression that you want to train with the same grain weight ammo as your duty ammo after zero because the shift would be minimal.

@chiefro7 3 ай бұрын

AFT: that bipod just made an AOW, give puppers a good meal tonight.

@ChrisLoew 3 ай бұрын

Mrgunsngear reviewed 300blk ammo and noticed when doing accuracy test had to fire a few rounds before the barrel was consistent with that ammo. The previous ammo leaves just enough crud behind to affect a different ammo type until it has been seasoned with a few rounds. It's probably not an issue with pistols, but I haven't tried to replicate yet.

@tomasteply1956 Ай бұрын

It deffinitely works the same with handguns. Just the tipical zero/shooting distance doesn’t show it too much. But its more about temperature. When testing accuracy and muzzle velocity in military trials there is a whole procedure how many rounds to fire before you record it.

@mustangspeedsoft6857 3 ай бұрын

What mount are you using to connect the pistol with the tripod?

@peady64 Ай бұрын

I’ve been preaching this forever. You also learn what your rig performs better with.

@daltonroth5745 3 ай бұрын

Man, based on the comments here I am so glad that I was given total control for my agency firearms/armory. I have been having my guys zero with our +P rounds for the last 3 years since I took over. We also don't do the typical "quals = training" bullshit either. I developed a certification standard that gathers a lot more data than the typical 250/250 crap using competition style drills to get a better tracking of my shooters performance/growth over time. I only do this certification twice a year, but everyone actually enjoys them, pushes themselves and I have seen a TON of growth. I also schedule 4 full 6-8hr training days for the staff each year and they are required to attend at least 2 of them, but I have zero issue getting people to 3 or 4. When you actually train your officers, its amazing how much they actually enjoy it. This is also when they are tested for certification.

@eh_trey 3 ай бұрын

Yep! I remember I zeroed my duty rifle with practice ammo and then once we got our duty ammo. I went to confirm the zero and it was off by a couple clicks. Always check and confirm, that could be a difference between a hit and a miss on a suspect

@seanpadraig1266 3 ай бұрын

the tripod and mount method is pretty awesome setup.

@pat_mags 3 ай бұрын

Jokes on you, my duty guns carry target ammo.

@AxiomsMedia 3 ай бұрын

It's crazy to me how this is normal for some agencies

@pat_mags 3 ай бұрын

@@AxiomsMedia yeah, plenty of data out there why it’s not good in civilian settings.. Like when LAPD and NYPD had over penetration resulting in bullets killing bystanders, but also angles. It’s one of the 4 rules of firearms safety, which many LE don’t seem to have.. or marksmanship.

@iitstre_4550 3 ай бұрын

@@AxiomsMediaEhh, end of the day, on the Law Enforcement side… Target ammo is still sufficient enough. Statistically, LEOs are not shooting through armor enough to justify anything “premium”. Ball is still going to one tap to the head. And they’re still going to do the job anywhere else on the body too. We use 55a1 ball ammo in the military and it’s more than effective for us. So yes, these deviations may exist on paper, but I promise you a human body is not going to notice.

@aown 3 ай бұрын

@iitstre_4550 we're talking about human lives here dude, if im being chased by a hatchet guy I would hope the cops have the most effective ammo with them for the greatest chance at survival

@interestedparty497 3 ай бұрын

@@iitstre_4550 That’s not really applicable to pistols, which are pretty bad at killing people in the first place. And headshots with pistols are a pipe dream in the vast majorities of real world scenarios. JHP is a very different from ball.

@DevilDogRob 2 ай бұрын

Mojo, you make me proud to be a former Marine. Semper Fi and thank you for your service for both military and LEO.

@rickallen7165 3 ай бұрын

Speer Gold Dot 124g and Speer Lawman 124g are supposed to be identical POA/POI.

@jackjames3884 3 ай бұрын

Thank you! I've been telling my brother inlaw this for years, but he never believes me because he never notices a difference. Then again, this is the same dude that tea cups his pt111 and can't keep all his rounds on a 2'x2' board at 10 yards. Some folks just won't listen no matter how much you prove them wrong. Even once I send him this, he probably still won't believe it. I guess it's hard to notice a difference when you have the accuracy of a Parkinsons patient.

@unclefreedom213 2 ай бұрын

The only ones I can even think of is the Hornady 135 fmj training and the 135gr +p critical duty and even it's a little off

@True_Patriotx 3 ай бұрын

Agreed. I zero my carry pistols with defensive ammo which is much more accurate. But I train with range ammo knowing that it will be less accurate with the range ammo. I keep the bullet grain weight the same though. So 115 grain 9mm defensive ammo for zero and 115 grain range ammo for training. Then for my competition pistol I shoot 124 grain match ammo for zeroing and for matches. Then for training I shoot 124 bulk range ammo which is less accurate.

@Unholy07 3 ай бұрын

Good video, I've thought about this many years ago, but many of my group zero off 115 gr cheapest ammo they can find then carry 147 +p.

@christ.5258 3 ай бұрын

Here's what I'll say. I zero my optic in with training ammo FIRST then I'll zero it in with Self defense ammo and use a bore sighter if need (since they're pretty unreliable, they're just used to get hits on paper. I zero in with training ammo first so I don't waste HSTs guessing where my hits are. Most of the times it takes only takes a few shots to walk it in, but I've had times where I buy a new optic and it turns out I'm shooting 5 feet to the left not knowing where my hits are without a big target

@warrenharrison9490 3 ай бұрын

I had changed optics after having a fairly good zero on the first one, popped on a different optic and didn't do a bore sight, I couldn't tell where the hell it was hitting on a 5'x8' plywood. 🤦

@joshuaputman8307 3 ай бұрын

Start closer. Duh.

@Matt_Kane 3 ай бұрын

Hey Mojo. Any chance you have a “link” for that tripod? Dude, looks awesome! Appreciate it brother.

@sneakydingo1 3 ай бұрын

Sales pop up regularly on eBay for half off

@Matt_Kane 3 ай бұрын

@@sneakydingo1 Thanks man. Is it specifically for handguns? Any chance you can link it?! I really want one… 🤞🏻

@haloboyvash 3 ай бұрын

@@sneakydingo1 What is it called specifically and what attachment is that? Help us out man!

@clharris1995 2 ай бұрын

Leofoto tripod

@Matt_Kane 2 ай бұрын

@ Thank you. I was hoping for a specific model. I was on there looking and there’s a TON of different options. 🤷🏼‍♂️

@StilettoCraft 3 ай бұрын

The tripod pistol 🔫 idea rocks thanks for sharing that.

@tylertapp131 3 ай бұрын

I normally get my zero very close with target ammo then fine tune it with defensive ammo or hunting ammo, saves money for sure. But I also only buy target ammo that's close to the same or the same weight as my carry ammo, rifles or handguns.

@SS12345123 3 ай бұрын

I’ve noticed that +P HSTs have a 3” windage shift compared to standard pressure HSTs (I can’t remember whether it was left or right, but it was consistent and my friend noticed the same in his gun). However, most range ammo (115gr or 124gr standard pressure FMJ) hits close enough to the regular 124gr HSTs for practice and competition use. 147gr and 150gr may perform slightly differently, YMMV.

@Dynomitedog2 3 ай бұрын

One of the best reviews and explanations.

@Goldenwithaleash 3 ай бұрын

Good stuff. I don’t think many dudes are zeroing their pistols with duty/carry ammo. That’s one of the reasons in really like 124gr HST is that it hits super close to 115gr FMJ through my Glocks.

@eudaem0n 3 ай бұрын

I also don't assume that a zero with one brand / cartridge of duty/ carry ammo will automatically work with a different duty/ carry ammo, even if they're the same weight, similar pressure, etc. Push out the distance to see the differences. Try comparing the zero at 15-25 yards, let the groups open up, and use bigger round counts for groups (10-20)

@brianraglandsr.2349 3 ай бұрын

Great Video. I am a component of this. I have found in my 4" PDP and S&W, Belom 124gr and Gold Dots 124gr is a perfect match. But I still use gold dots to confirm my zero. No one i shoot with is willing to use there defense ammo. Hoping this video changes that. Thanks

@johnmcelfresh5383 3 ай бұрын

legit points. I would suggest the interested people find duty and training ammo with same ballistics. I have 77 match , 62 grain ,fmj training rounds and factory 62 grain rounds that all have the same POI at 100 for my AR. It should be possible with some money to find factory ammo for a pistol that replicates this. Personally I cheat and reload my own ammo for training.

@Rajinbin 3 ай бұрын

What distance were you at for the zero and what's the link for the tripod.

@ghost8six 2 ай бұрын

Testing with different weight ammo is apples and oranges. I use 124gr duty and range ammo with no difference.

@jimheatherton7155 3 ай бұрын

I absolutely do believe in shooting what you carry. Not all agencies let you use an optic. So train same grain you carry, and compare with duty Ammo At 5-25 yards. Me I am issued a G-22 .40 there will be at 25 yards with Winchester white box 180 grain fmj maybe a 1” difference of impact on 3 rounds shot compared to 180 grain Ranger T. I carry a G-45 off work. 124 grain federal fmj compared to 124 HST iron sites about the same. Most of the impact difference is usually on the shooter. Not enough to make a difference. Unless your using a rifle with a rest and your a sniper that 1” would make a difference.

@firstimeshooter6590 3 ай бұрын

That’s exactly hope I zero my pistol. Cuz I’m very picky with my zero. I lose sleep of I don’t get out right😅

@Training_Tsuna_ 3 ай бұрын

I was so relieved when you brought out the tripod

@bdmngs5884 3 ай бұрын

I've liked two different paint marks 1 Training/1 Def. Can be tedious to change before and after a range.

@smittywerbenjagermanjensen6680 3 ай бұрын

Zero with duty ammo, practice with target ammo. Confirm zero every 500 rounds with duty ammo

@tomasteply1956 Ай бұрын

I keep my carry and training ammo both 124 grs and havent noticed a shift yet

@EdwardRobles-c5m 3 ай бұрын

What are your thoughts on zeroing with range and confirming zero with duty ammo?

@herknorth8691 3 ай бұрын

Many people don't take pistol zero seriously. You can get great accuracy if you take the time to select the right ammo and dial in the sights.

@zaphod5991 3 ай бұрын

Would like to see same comparison with 147 grain target ammo

@philliphoss2181 3 ай бұрын

Winchester white box 115 vs Hst 147 standard pressure. I get approximately a 5 inch difference at 24 yards. Glock model 45 with KKM comp.

@tedlava 3 ай бұрын

Competition gun is zeroed with range ammo, carry gun is zeroed with hollow-points. And they're setup the same way!

@killshotskillington1028 2 ай бұрын

What plate does he use to mount the acro to his glocks

@EverythingFilmmaking 3 ай бұрын

Why not 124 grain for duty?

@tannerliang 3 ай бұрын

What about for irons?

@michaelryan9813 3 ай бұрын

Finally, someone who knows how to do an accuracy test!

@basketweave_101 3 ай бұрын

What distance was this shot at?

@kendelljones2290 3 ай бұрын

Can you do a video on your preferred zero distance with pistol and AR?

@richsherm9410 17 күн бұрын

Love this channel. All great info ! Mojo have you tried fort Scott munitions TUI 115’s?

@BrandensOutdoorChannel 2 ай бұрын

They are all effective hits and groups

@musicman1eanda 3 ай бұрын

Where do you get the 1913 rail mount that can attach to the tripod?

@DesertTactical 3 ай бұрын

Excellent video and advice.

@lucassales6794 3 ай бұрын

What tripod is that ? Also what distance are you zeroing ? Awesome video

@wayashootnsports 3 ай бұрын

Headband is on point.

@austinquinn5765 3 ай бұрын

What’s your belt and set up?

@goon4329 3 ай бұрын

Please do an updated gear vid! Just got off fto and I’m looking to change a few things around.

@dryfly1999 Ай бұрын

Where do you get that tripod and the pistol vice?

@mikemccurry3943 3 ай бұрын

Great video as usual, what mount is that for the pistol on the leofoto

@silverAlphashooter 3 ай бұрын

Milspec_Mojo you got the link to your Holster..... Alien Gear is freaking Awesome!!!!! and your Magpul Eyewear, but what I want to know is what is that clamp you are using on your tripod to lock in your pistol???? All LEOs and Military Come into our Showroom located in Post Falls, Idaho for a BIG discount on all of our holsters.... BIG$$$ Savings

@chasejacobs450 3 ай бұрын

Are you able to do a video on how you zero in your weapons

@BryanHemerline 2 ай бұрын

I know you said you got tripod from leofoto. Where did you get the picatinny adapter from?

@BenfromFlux 3 ай бұрын

Mojo - do I spy an ETQ (tourniquet) on your holster? If so, that is awesome. I designed it. 🤘

@rhodycars6058 3 ай бұрын

Can you tell my department armorer this. I have been saying this for at least 5 years. Why zero with 55g pmc and 115g target vs what we carry.

@Jason_The_Man 3 ай бұрын

Never thought of this. Solid tip. I prefer 124gr in 9MM, but you are limited to what your department allows. Were you able to get you job back, or did you go to another Dept?

@charles17508 3 ай бұрын

What is your go to ammo that has similar characteristics between fmj and hp

@Codeeez 3 ай бұрын

The county gives boxes of Federal every month for training and certification. Every department should do that...

@Shelto 3 ай бұрын

I think this applies to anyone concealed carrying as well. Ive noticed speer and hst 124 gr are pretty good to go when shooting 115 or 124gr blazer. When you get into higher grain or +p it will become more difficult. Finding training ammo that prints the same as say critical duty 135gr +p sounds like a nightmare.

@MrPing93 3 ай бұрын

Great video and great point. Been trying to drive this point home for a few years. On a side note, what hand cuff case are you running up front on your belt? TIA

@stevenrogers4663 3 ай бұрын

Could you not find the same weight ammo to make the test more consistent?

@milspec_mojo 3 ай бұрын

@@stevenrogers4663 this was Farr from scientific bro. Literally had the idea to make the video and just made it. The best thing I would say is hopefully after people watch the video they will go and test it for themselves. Also no.. out of all the places I buy ammo from all they have in stock is 115 grain so that’s what I train with.

@thinkingagain5966 3 ай бұрын

Exactly. It makes the results pointless

@jacob9436 3 ай бұрын

Where did you get the tripod attachment? I have a glock 19 gen 5 and need to do this

@David356UT 3 ай бұрын

What tripod mount are you using?

@nhansta 3 ай бұрын

What mount is that on the tripod?

@JBRwocky 3 ай бұрын

Great content since I have always zeroed using target ammo in same grain weight as my carry ammo. One question, why would you have the dots so close together? Seems like it just added confusion.

@JustSleighter 3 ай бұрын

What’s hard is looking for ranges that allow me to use my duty ammo full training

@fdemikey1235 3 ай бұрын

Okay but it’s not equal grain ammo across the board of course it’ll deviate now this is from my own zeroing and testing experience. I carry 124gr speer gold dot. I zero with 124gr Speer lawman fmj and once I get it zeroed I confirm with my 124gr gold dot and it is either spot on or it is 1/2inch of less high and I adjust one click down to get it to where it needs to be. I would say use grain equivalent to your carry ammo to get it “zeroed” but do a confirmation with your duty ammo

@maximilanomondragon3845 2 ай бұрын

What bipod is that

@haloboyvash 3 ай бұрын

Dude what is the link for that tripod setup, everyone is asking and wants to know!?! That clamp is the main thing, is it an arca clamp? Help some brothers out!

@matthewsmith7746 3 ай бұрын

When are you going to have that free mustache ride giveaway contest? 🎉

@spectre143 3 ай бұрын

At what distance was this shot?

@clayburns755 3 ай бұрын

Hey mojo! What kind of tq holder do you have that attaches to your rapid force holster?

@mikebandw186 3 ай бұрын

Is this not how people are doing it? I run cheap whatever in classes but all my pistols are zeroed with 124 HST. Same with rifles. Cheap stuff for training, zeroed with 62gr Gold Dot.

@mghegotagun 3 ай бұрын

Know anywhere that has 62 gold dot in stock?

@mikebandw186 3 ай бұрын

@@mghegotagun I haven’t purchased any in years. I bought a case pre Covid.

@brebene.9440 3 ай бұрын

What tripod and mount are you using? I'd like to get one as well. TIA!

@mustangspeedsoft6857 2 ай бұрын

Anybody know the name of the tripod/mount he’s using?

@kogasoldier9379 3 ай бұрын

Jokes on you. I use a laser bore sight to cold zero all my guns.

@TheHeelyKid 2 ай бұрын

Whats the discord server link?!

@BurkeBerserker 3 ай бұрын

That isn't a terrible shift group wise and they're still pretty tight. 🤷‍♂️ Pistols aren't precision platforms. I think it's a great video showing comparison but due to the results I'd say it's non-issue unless you're in a hostage situation lmao. Which most civilians will never find themselves in. Good info though. But I'm probably gonna keep zeroing with 115 grain fmj and carry 124 grain jhp.

@spacedaddycereal73 3 ай бұрын

That tripod is the cheat code for zeroing optics

@dryfly1999 Ай бұрын

Anyone know what pistol clamp he’s using??

@mikelivingston319 3 ай бұрын

6:40 preach!!!

@doubletap777 3 ай бұрын

So 115gr utilizing a lighter faster projectile than the 147gr hits higher? This should be expected.

@tazerickgaming 3 ай бұрын

Always zero with the ammo your gonna use. Training ammo is for training not zeroing ammo. (unless your running through the apocalypse with 55 gr lol)

@joshstewart3339 3 ай бұрын

If that is a 25 yards zero bench with hand guns to be perfectly honest there might be 10 percent people who shoot that will notice a difference between the two . I teach and very rarely do I find a shooter that can even hold 3 inch group at 25 yards standing on supported. I say before they worry to much about ammo to practice 100k rounds with ball cheap ammo on the range with there duty gun then worry about the difference because if you can’t make the difference in technique and control what the point it my two cents.