Dutch Mantell on Why He HATED NWA Central States (Kansas City Territory)

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Clip from Story Time with Dutch Mantell 119 - Dutch Mantell on Why He HATED NWA Central States (Kansas City Territory)
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Legendary wrestler, manager, commentator, producer and booker ”Dirty” Dutch Mantell (WWE's Zeb Colter) brings his definitive takes on the latest news in the professional wrestling business as well as the most entertaining stories from years gone by to the podcast airwaves.
The Dirty Dutchman from Oil Trough, Texas has worked almost every single major promotion and wrestling territory in the United States over an illustrious 50 year career, including WWE, WWF, WCW, NWA, SMW, TNA, USWA, UWF, OVW, Impact, Georgia, Tennessee, Knoxville, Kansas City, St Louis, Florida, Memphis, Houston, Detroit, Mid-South, Kentucky, Mid-Atlantic, Dallas and even more - and that’s not counting Puerto Rico and Japan!
Every week, Dutch Mantell will give you his hot takes on the latest news, re-live some of the most memorable shows and events through history, bring you along on a virtual road trip to explain the nuances of the wrestling business, tell classic stories from throughout the decades and answer YOUR questions every week. There may even be a guest or two coming up in the future, so make sure you subscribe and never miss an episode of Story Time with Dutch Mantell!
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[@jvharbin8337]

"The way you pay us we ain't even on food!"- Dutch Mantel 😂😂😂

[@OaktownABQ]

😂

[@scrappy93]

Jim cornette has said that about pay before too. Lol

[@danpoutsma1351]

​@scrappy93 Jim was quoting Dutch. Dutch was working Memphis at the time, and Jerry Jarrett gathered all the boys around to let them know that they were going to be working with the WWF, so they needed to get off the steroids because this was during the time of the scandals and Vince and the company were under investigation Dutch retorted "Hell Jerry, the way you're paying us, we ain't even on food."

[@mox19380]

as always great conversation. it is really awesome to see the rapport between dutch and james. they respect, compliment, and challenge each other. you can easily sense the bond between them to provide the best content rather than a 1.5 hour show with only 20-minutes of fresh content. appreciate them both

[@overnitedave4455]

My dad took me to a Central States show at the Fort Dodge Iowa Armory D.I Bob Slaughter versus Ted Oates It was 1975

[@swolepatrol2139]

Central States was great as a kid when that was the only territory you got as a kid. I lived off CSW and wrestling magazines. Then around 85 when Saturday Nights Main event came onNBC I was blown away. I got a loop antenna around the same period and could get Mid South, I was in heaven lol.

[@russblack443]

The 80's was a great time to be a wrestling fan. I grew up in Metro Detroit which has three network channels and 4 or five UHF channels.And we got the 3 or four channels from Windsor Canada.I got to watch championship wrestling from Florida, International wrestling out of Montreal, George Cannon's Superstars of wrestling,AWA,mid South and Crockett on local TV because they were all syndicating their shows and it was cheap programming for the local stations. My friend also had the huge like 12 foot dish and we figured out how to get WCCW and the turner and USA shows on the satellite feed

[@martinwalton9307]

RIc Flair absolutely hated working Central States too, said it was the worst territory to work when he was NWA champ.

[@travissloan6864]

I don't know what that dude from Leavenworth was talking about. But there's no Municipal Hall in Kansas City. There's Municipal Auditorium in KCMO, and there's Memorial Hall in KCK. Just to clarify.

[@jvharbin8337]

$1,000 in 1980 is worth $3,830 today. 😮

[@JJbm4233]

Love the show guys don’t stop. Always great to see you doing well Dutch.

[@rickyusa1000]

Central States was doing good in the early '70's. They drew crowds with babyfaces like Danny Little Bear, Omar Atlas, The Viking and Rufus R Jones and heels like Harley, Roger Kirby, Black Angus Campbell and Baron von Rascke. It started on a slow decline in spring 1973 when Bulldog Bob Brown arrived and stayed there.

[@dreampopwavestudiob7282]

Delaware wrestler

[@55post]

he was good because u put him down his job, he was good watched at st joe arena late sixtys

[@grego7345]

I was pretty young, but I can remember watching Central States on Saturday mornings and the venue in Wichita was Century ll auditorium.

[@harryhanz1690]

Back in the 1970s, my grandfather too my dad and uncle to Century II every other Monday night for wrestling.

[@jimlittle2782]

I grew up in Central Missouri, our cable tv service carried channels from St Louis and Kansas City. It was obvious that the St Louis promotion was vastly superior to the one out of Kansas City. The St Louis promotor was the legendary Sam Mushnick, who was the NWA president from 1950 to 1975. When Mushnick retired, the Kansas City promotion bought the St Louis promotion, and the quality of St Louis wrestling instantlantly dropped.

[@Estolcles]

It's bad that when Dutch says "Second worst", before James can even finish the first word in the question, in my mind, I'm like: "Nick Gulas promotion." Yep. I was right.

[@danpoutsma1351]

Bob Geigel, not Pat O'Connor, was president of the NWA. The connection to St. Louis was that the KC ownership consortium of Geigel, O'Connor, and Harley Race took over the promotion after Sam Muchnick retired at the start of 1982 and killed business within a few short years. Verne Gagne of the AWA also owned a piece of St. Louis.

[@rickdecker2146]

Flair didn't have much good to say about Geigel. Said he was the worst NWA president.

[@bigglilwayne7050]

And Ole didn't have much good to say about Flair...

[@danpoutsma1351]

@bigglilwayne7050 The only issue I have with Ole is the whole "I made Flair champion to get him out of the territory" narrative when 1) Ole alone did not make that decision. The NWA had a Board of Directors made up of 9 people from different territories who voted on the champion. And 2), if I'm not mistaken, Ole was working matches with Flair in the Carolinas right after he won the belt, and as Crockett's hometown guy, he was there more often than any other previous champion.

[@stewartmcrae8007]

@@bigglilwayne7050 And nobody has much good to say about Ole

[@RandallJohnson-d7o]

Thats not accurate. But i know what youre saying​@stewartmcrae8007

[@andrewbowers4555]

Toyal sidenote-Good to know this channel has atleast 2 subscribers from Leavenworth,KS. Small world.

[@smarkslowplay3512]

Kansas was known among all workers as a terrible payoff territory

[@WalterGriffin-f5k]

And another thing now I still think they had some good paydays back in the early days when the pay was different for Kansas City when they got paid off the head cow instead of so much of we they interviewed Bob Gogo a few years ago on channel 41 something like that, but it was a old interview and he said that Danny Little bear and Rufus had always made a lot of money there in Kansas City

[@misterelom]

I'll forever associate Bob Geigel with the "Demand this" angle where he got sucker punched by Magnum T.A. which led to Magnum getting stripped of the US title.

[@BillWalkowitz]

I had seen a clip of Central States on Pro Wrestling This Week w/ Gordon Solie and Joe Pedecino. When I got into tape trading I went out of my way to get St. Louis and Central States. Central States became one of my 'go to' territories as I liked it a lot. The only thing I hated? Bulldog Bob Brown and the worst no selling i had ever seen in my life. Why they never ran him out of town I'll never know, but they should of as soon as he arrived.

[@Carelock]

Pat O’Connor drew 30,275 against Yukon Eric and 38,622 at Comiskey Park against Buddy Rogers (the largest gate until WWF’s “the Big Event” in 1986. So he was a big draw in his time.

[@briannettles669]

All of the tapes I have seen of the NWA Central States were so dull and boring. It is not shocking that they struggled drawing crowds with that booking.

[@MrTsuruta1000]

They didn't have PPV's back then, my dad and I went to those shows on holidays.

[@StevenWeitkum]

Wrestlers today are spoiled compared to the wrestlers of the past. It shows in their work as well.

[@harryhanz1690]

Spoiled how?

[@danpoutsma1351]

​@@harryhanz1690Guaranteed contracts and lighter schedule That didn't exist in the territory days. Either you wrestled or didn't get paid, and you got paid based on how well the house drew . Light turnout means low payoff. And guys were wrestling every day, or almost, and were driving long distances on the regular to make the next town. The Mid-South schedule was especially brutal in terms of travel.

[@StevenWeitkum]

@@harryhanz1690 They get paid a ton of money work way less dates they have trainers medical staff fancy catering. WWE schedule is nothing like it used to be. The guy on top you to wrestle 300+ days a year how often are reigns or rhodes wrestling nowhere near that. Plus tin the 89s and 9os some of those guys were household names. You ask a random citizen who any of these guys are most won't know. They'll prob still know hulk hogan the macho man the rock stone cold. So there you go.

[@jvharbin8337]

Those days were days that people were not going to be at work and you had a better chance to get a big crowd to sell out an arena or give you high ratings watching TV at home.

[@cowboy9275]

Funny how many started in central states went on to become WWF Superstars Bulldog Bob Brown , Bruiser Bob Sweetan , Col Buck Robley , Kevin Sullivan,Ken Lucas , Bruce Reed , George Wells , Pak Song, Takschiho

[@scociolopath]

Ted Debiase, Lord Alfred Hayes

[@michaelcorkery7108]

I miss the territories. I remember when Jim Crockett bought Central States. Their wrestlers wrere terrible compared to the other territories he brought.

[@danpoutsma1351]

From what I understand, Crockett didn't buy it. The deal was he would come in and run things to try and get the territory off it's ass and he and Geigel would share in the proceeds. But after about 6 months, Crockett decided he didn't want to do it anymore, pulled his crew out, and moved on to do something similar with the Florida office. He ran up a bunch of bills in the meantime that he agreed to pay and didn't (TV stations, buildings, etc. ) and Geigel was left on the hook for it all because everything was under his name.

[@swizzzlestik]

@@danpoutsma1351 Tony Schiavone claims Crockett only took over the production of CSW's TV show and lent them mid card talent to help them out. Also, before his debut as Big Bubba Rogers in WCW, Bubba was sent there for a few months during this time to train him up and get more match experience. So, I'm not so sure if Crockett was originally intending for CSW to be a development territory as the other NWA territories were dying off or if he was planning on buying them up. No matter, he likely saw the sorry shape of the territory that was on its last leg and changed his mind and parted ways.

[@danpoutsma1351]

@swizzzlestik Whatever the agreement was, I was told Crockett screwed Geigel over. Then he did the same thing with Florida. He was supposed to split the gates with the ownership group of CWF, but he eventually cut them out completely, and they were forced to shut down the local promotion several months in.. Crockett took the TV, some of the talent, and began running his own shows there. Mike Graham and Steve Keirn started up again as Florida Championship Wrestling in 1988 in an effort to revive the territory, but it wasn't the same...

[@swizzzlestik]

@@danpoutsma1351 Schiavone was dispelling the rumor that Crockett bought CSW off Geigel. Maybe their deal was Crockett would help with TV show and talent and they'd split the gate. Anyway, this is the first that I've heard where Crockett left him or Florida office high and dry. That's a shame. I'm still confused on how Crockett would think he could build up the territory though and I say this as a CSW fan that attended shows.

[@georgewilliams4258]

I used to work for a printing company years ago holiday pay was triple time so I worked every holiday I could.I worked other places where I would work some holidays but I don't have a wife or any kids so it didn't really bother me.

[@2010theunit]

I thought Geigel was trash when he stripped Dusty Rhodes of the US title after defending Magnum TA from an attack by Tully Blanchard. After all the dastardly things the 4 horsemen did over the years and none of them were stripped of their titles. Geiger was a bum period. 😆

[@danpoutsma1351]

That wasn't Bob Geigel It was Jim Crockett. Geigel stripped Magnum of the U S. Title two years earlier after Magnum punched him when Geigel reprimanded him for fighting with the Koloffs during a contract signing when they insulted his mother who was present.

[@flynlow43]

No wonder they didn't draw. Their TV wasn't done in a studio. They would just show tape from the auditorium show the week before. Why pay for a ticket and go to the show, when you could watch it on TV for free a few days later. They did a studio show on channel 2 in St. Joseph, on Saturday nights but that was to promote the auditorium shows in St. Joe. Gust Karras ran that. Not sure if that was considered a different territory than KC, they had the same wrestlers but never saw Mr. Karras on the KC shows.

[@steveapken6803]

St Louis was the wrestling capital of the world

[@DavidPinkard-z2v]

Nick had to be cheap because you were killing the territory Dutch

[@WalterGriffin-f5k]

After Bob Brown come back to the central states I don’t know how wrestling lasted as long as it did first of all where are the booking high race had some good matches but he had to win all the time win. I figured that if he’s bringing in Sergeant slaughter The iron sheet, Bobby Duncan I feel it should’ve been a 1 oh1 let slaughter those guys that body beat Harley race and then turn around come back a week later and and Harley race get his win I remember when they bought them midnight expression damn I don’t even think there was 50 people at that showand midnight Express was Jim. Cornett was very hot, but I don’t remember who Bob Brown was teaming with, but they beat to midnight Express never seen a heard problem again I even tried to bring back Rufus, which was a waste of time and money.

[@johngallagher72]

The pull was this ...they wanted to put the belt on Flair ...Harley wasnt losing in Georgia, the Carolinas and definitely not Kansas City ...and Dusty wasnt losing in Florida ...that is why Kansas City was best location to drop the title.

[@danpoutsma1351]

I don't know if it was "the best" location. But it was certainly chosen as the site of the title change due to politics.

[@johngallagher72]

@danpoutsma1351 true but the idea was put the belt on Flair and keep Harley and Dusty strong in the big markets like Houston, St. Louis , The Carolinas , Florida etc. Other good choices may have been Japan or here in Canada as Toronto and Vancouver were still NWA territories and affiliates at the time.

[@danpoutsma1351]

@johngallagher72 Maybe you mean Dallas? Paul Boesch in Houston wasn't booking the NWA champion anymore by this point. Flair started going there a few years later, but Boesch washed his hands of the NWA title a few months before this title change when Race no-showed him for the second time.

[@johngallagher72]

@@danpoutsma1351 interesting ...didn't know that about Race no showing Boesch ...although that makes sense why he would bring in Bockwinkel for main event championship matches

[@danpoutsma1351]

@johngallagher72 Boesch used both the NWA and AWA champions. But the NWA title was recognized as the world champion, while the AWA title was billed as just that. After Race no-showed, Wahoo McDaniel won a tournament, and Bockwinkel beat him to become the recognized world champion in Houston. Nick actually owned a small percentage of the Houston office and planned on buying more shares and had aspirations to take over as the promoter there one day, but then Paul brought in Bill Watts as a partner, which soured Nick. But I'm not sure if he got out then or if he still owned shares up until Paul started working with McMahon after Watts sold Mid-South/UWF to Crockett.

[@WalterGriffin-f5k]

Oh, and let me say one more thing since we’re on the subject Kansas City how is anybody gonna get paid when they plan Ric Flair $10,000 to come through once every two months and then I guess it got good ones and he wanted to renew his contract, he wanted double his moneythat’s when Kansas City tried to get their own world champion and my Georgia ones. It didn’t last long. I think he done better down in Texas.

[@BrutishYetDelightful]

I was one of those kids like the young Jim Cornette - the arrival of cable in our town meant that I suddenly quadrupled the amount of wrestling I could watch. I also had some understanding of the territories, because I had attended school in 5 different states by the time I was in sixth grade. In the 80s, if I didn't get to see WWF, well, not that big a deal. If I didn't get to see AWA on ESPN, that was more irritating. If I didn't get to see Georgia, I was miffed, and if I didn't get to see Ron Fuller's Southeastern Championship Wrestling, I was PISSED. DISTRAUGHT. My Saturday was ruined. I agree with every word Dutch said about Ron Fuller. Best damn territory EVER, and I saw a lot of them, from the day when I was about 8 and discovered wrestling on WLOS TV13 out of Asheville, NC. I was living in Mauldin, SC, and WLOS was a big part of my afternoon and weekend viewing.

[@mr.joedirt8583]

Bulldog Bob Brown was horrible.

[@DavidPinkard-z2v]

You couldn’t draw in central states Dutch but you begged so they overpaid you

[@55post]

the old civic arena in st joe mo in the late 60's early 70;s would draw 2000 plus

[@RS3isRealscape]

everyone hated Central States they pay was awful the trips were long covering IA.MO,KS,NB they would not even sell out in towns like KC St. Louis and Omaha

[@WalterGriffin-f5k]

And another thing now I still think they had some good paydays back in the early days when the pay was different for Kansas City when they got paid off the head cow instead of so much of we they interviewed Bob Gogo a few years ago on channel 41 something like that, but it was a old interview and he said that Danny Little bear and Rufus had always made a lot of money there in Kansas City

[@WalterGriffin-f5k]

After Bob Brown come back to the central states I don’t know how wrestling lasted as long as it did first of all where are the booking high race had some good matches but he had to win all the time win. I figured that if he’s bringing in Sergeant slaughter The iron sheet, Bobby Duncan I feel it should’ve been a 1 oh1 let slaughter those guys that body beat Harley race and then turn around come back a week later and and Harley race get his win I remember when they bought them midnight expression damn I don’t even think there was 50 people at that showand midnight Express was Jim. Cornett was very hot, but I don’t remember who Bob Brown was teaming with, but they beat to midnight Express never seen a heard problem again I even tried to bring back Rufus, which was a waste of time and money.