The Eternal Debate: Who Created The Fantastic Four?

[@Medraut00]

Let's not forget Jack Kirby's proto FF comic at DC, Challengers of the Unknown.

[@katsomeday1]

I think one of the most important things to look at is the other works both had done independent of the other and it's fairly easy to see that FF was really not just one or the other. Rather, it was a blending of the two's styles.

[@WalterLiddy]

Personally I'm perfectly happy to consider the FF to be a result of collaboration. It's not like they were fully-formed from the get-go. They were developed over time by teams, of which the Lee/Kirby team was the original. Most of the old-time heroes weren't really created in some kind of permanent form; most changed and grew over time with contributions from several artists. BTW: I think your work is amazing. Very well researched and presented, with impressive visuals/editing for such a small channel. You should be getting a LOT more views. Hopefully that happens for you. I know the frustration of having a channel people aren't watching.

[@Tymbus]

On 'The Origin of Marvel Comics', Lee acknowledged that Kirby created "The Silver Surfer"

[@JohnSmith-lp1kd]

I think in all honesty neither would be as big or important in this field without one another, it’s kind of like Lennon & McCartney they collaborated very well & made history. In diff eras of comics sometimes art is looked at more important ie 90s than writings in the 2000s but once Lee & Kirby were introducing all these characters in just gelled perfectly

[@AceLM92]

I have no problem with Stan Lee being known as the co-creator of so many Marvel characters alongside Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko, but what bothers me is that so many people see him as the sol creator. And it's one thing for the general audience that aren't familiar with comics to think that, but it bothers me when it's thought of by people who say they are fans of the characters and read the comics. That to me is doing a disservice to the work of so many artists.

[@petermj1098]

Kirby was more interested in religious cosmic and epic stories. Ditko was more interested in Objectivist and psychedelic stories. When they worked with Lee, they made human characters focusing on human struggles. Lee has been consistent in writing and mentoring other writers and artists in making humanized characters at Marvel after Kirby and Ditko left.

[@vincentfranklin17]

Great video! The FF is my favorite Marvel superteam. I always thought it was a collaborate effort between Kirby and Lee , myself. Too bad they had a falling out.

[@macsnafu]

It just seems ridiculous to ascribe all the credit to either Lee or to Kirby. They both contributed to some degree, even if it's not clear to what degree. If you just look at the finished product, it's rather peculiar in a way. If Goodman told Stan to create a superhero team, why didn't Stan revive The All-Winners Squad, which Timely had briefly published back in the 1940s? It had their most popular characters from back then: Captain America, The Human Torch, and Namor the Submariner, plus Whizzer and Lady Liberty. That would have been much more like The Justice League of America. Except for the revised version of the Human Torch, there's little to connect the FF to AWS. Instead the FF look more like a combination of Kirby's Challengers of the Unknown and the monster/alien stories that Atlas had been putting out just before the FF began. Note, for example, that the characters don't even appear in costumes until the third issue. Before that, the covers made it look like the Fantastic Four was just another monster mag. To me, it seems like something of a miracle that the FF became a big hit.

[@comicbookguy6361]

Well said ! I agree, Fantastic Four # 1 is pretty much like another Monster mag issue.

[@whoffkne]

I would love to see the video hinted at about Sky Masters - it is a brilliant work overall and would love to know more.

[@zackeryparkerson]

Thank you for including that dramatic reenactment. I felt like I was there on the green with them.

[@glennfleming]

Strange you didn't mention Kirby's 'Challengers of the Unknown'... obviously the template for the Fantastic Four... appearing a few years before and NOTHING to do with Stanley!! Hmmm...

[@akwilson1676]

That old Marvel method sure was weird and unconventional. It does kinda maximize the artist's input and ability to improvise. It's a stark contrast to guys like Alan Moore whose scripts are so detailed it could be made a novel

[@Lazrael32]

I have never understood why people believed everything Kirby said, and assumed Stan was always lying. Did Kirby get ripped off? Yep. Did he deserve more credit? Absolutely! Was Stan am egotistical self promoter? Likely. But that doesn't make everything Kirby says true. In most cases, even with the marvel method, it was a collaborative process. They are both the creators. At least, that is my take.

[@fredrikgranstrom6743]

Yes.

[@bmorebob6624]

This whole debate really reminds me of the Steve Jobs vs Steve Wozniak debate. People always need to pick a guy/side and dig there heels in. Not unlike teenage girls do with boy bands

[@fredrikgranstrom6743]

@@bmorebob6624 yea or nerds with ps/xbox

[@Giovanni-vt2xc]

But how did Kirby get ripped off?

[@KitchenSinkSoup]

@@Giovanni-vt2xc He didn't receive much credit for his role in establishing Marvel comics, he was paid poorly, he was left in dire straits financially whilst Lee lived well etc. Wasn't give his art back either.

[@Dr.Thirteen]

almost 17 min to answer a question with "depends" ITV

[@rondajones7526]

Hello there, I recently discovered your channel and have really been enjoying it. I just wanted to say thank you for the educational material and the way it's delivered. I appreciate your work

[@unrulysimian3897]

Kirby's 4th World was what changed me from a kid who read comics into an obsessed collector. Of course I wasn't happy with his treatment by the industry. Consequently, for several decades I wasn't fond of Lee. I would still credit Kirby with the lion's share of the creative effort involved in the work he and Stan produced. But as I've learned more and matured ever so slightly over the years since, I'm no longer a Lee hater. Thanks for breaking it down. Another intetesting video.

[@StrangeBrainParts]

I would agree that Kirby did a lot of the heavy-lifting, especially once Marvel took off and Lee's attention was in a million different directions. In many interviews, Lee has stated that at some point all he had to say to Kirby was something like, "Hey, have Doctor Doom show up in the next issue," and that would be all the direction he'd give. Again, that was later in the working relationship. Not so much at the very beginning.

[@scottfree2248]

One trend that is noticeable is how Stan Lee would take a pre-existing golden age character and use it as a template for his current work. The Human Torch is a prime example of this. It should also be mentioned that more than likely Mister Fantastic's powers were inspired by Jack Cole's Plastic Man.

[@JosephAland]

There's video footage of an interview where Lee confirms the influence of Plastic Man for Mister Fantastic.

[@billstreet39]

Great topic, Kirby’s art is what got me hooked back in March 1963 with the Hulk on cover...... love to see a video on original comic art

[@nohbuddy1]

6:43 that note is hilarious

[@peteroutlaw7207]

When the video put Stan and Jack over the FF we can see Jack is Ben and Stan is Reed! Wow!

[@samwilson9781]

That's how I see them.

[@expressoric]

It's a fact that Martin Goodman asked Stan lee to come-up with a superhero team comic. He initiated the original idea. None of it would have started without him. He could be said to be the creator of the Marvel Universe. He was the one who conceived of realistic personalities and lives for the members of the Fantastic Four. He was innovative. He needed a creative partner to bring his project to life, as well as doing the art. I think that Lee and Kirby contributed equally on the first issue of the "Fantastic Four", but Kirby should be recognised for it.

[@TheProtagonizer]

I discovered your channel a few weeks ago when searching info about Twilight of the superheroes and after watching a couple of your videos all Ive to say is: GREAT WORK! Edition, narration, research, everything in this channel is an A+ Keep it up! Greetings from Mexico

[@apharris01]

You didn't say anything about the Challengers of the Unknown, or the similarities between their origin story and that of the Fantastic Four.

[@StrangeBrainParts]

I cover that in another video.

[@louisryan820]

People need to get over this idea that saying something was "Created by X and Y" HAS to denote a 50-50 partnership. With a work of art or fiction, it is hard to determine and mathematically impossible to figure out. That's just how things work in a creative collaboration. Like with every Lennon-McCartney song, there was not an exact 50-50 split of effort between them on every single song, but that's just how it is. Paul needed John for some stuff and John needed Paul for others. The difference between the Beatles and the original Marvel bullpen is that success was shared equally among the Beatles. That's what people have a problem with (which the video addresses).

[@comicbookguy6361]

Paul McCartney and John Lennon had an arrangement, no matter who composed the song, both names will credit as authors. There are songs composed and written by John and there are songs composed by Paul but the credits always are "John Lennon and McCartney"

[@KardboardKenny]

you've never created anything of worth, have you?

[@comicbookguy6361]

@@KardboardKenny Could you explain us how Stan Lee created the characters? Enlighten us! Please.

[@KardboardKenny]

@@comicbookguy6361 this asshole whines about 50/50 collab when its been proven time and time again that the King (hence being "The King of Comics") is way more responsible for those creations than lee. i mean lee even used the excuse that he had a "bad memory", kinda like Kane sodomizing the creators of the Bat cash-cow mythos or the used car salesman taking credit for the horsepower under the hood. .

[@comicbookguy6361]

​@@KardboardKenny Definitely ! Stan Lee changed his statements about the process of the creation during the years, but in the early 60's he said this in an interview... "Some artists, such as Jack Kirby, need NO plot at all. I mean, I'll just say to Jack. Let's let the next villain be Dr.Doom...or I may not even say that. He may tell me. And then he goes home and does it. He's so good at plots, I'm sure he's a thousand times better than I. He just about makes up the plots for these stories. All I do is a little editing...I may tell him that's he's gone too far in one direction or another. Of course occasionally I'll give him a plot"

[@jnramage]

Isn't it obvious. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby came together and created the ff. Silly to try to diminish one over the other.

[@upyours192]

So I did a big Kirby binge read so I don't have the full context of Stan Lee's narrative tropes in the 50s but there were so many story gimmicks and character types from Kirby's style found in Challengers of the Unknown that carried over into the early parts of the Fantastic Four. Whether its the technologically godlike alien child playing with the group to the the manner in hypnotism would be used randomly to save the day, an element very present in Kirby's stories. So I would say that in terms of the early days of the Fantastic Four, it feels like a lot of the gimmicks Kirby has already used in the Golden Age Captain America run all the way to the Challengers of the Unknown were very present in the early runs of the Fantastic Four. Not to mention the refined plotting, story flow, and the entire art was done by Kirby. So although it was most definitely a collaboration of the two, Kirby's influence was far more prevalent than Lee's. Of course, as you pointed out, Lee would sign off on it as he was the one in charge. But like many managerial positions, the credit is shared equally or more in favor towards the one in charge but the work was not. Kirby definitely did more to make the Fantastic Four a finished product but that being purely on the creative side of things. On the business side and possibly the Fantastic Four's success is ultimately Stan Lee's main contribution.

[@stardust_memories2260]

Pshaw! Lee and Kirby were both hacks! The credit should be all mine! Yes I, Victor von Doom, should be recognized as creator of the insufferable Fantastic Four!

[@rondajones7526]

I'm a big fan

[@Anders010]

Kirby: 80% Lee: 20%

[@theunknowngamer5477]

@@Adam-nz3ix Try reading The First Kingdom...read two issues a year, for twenty years, until the run is complete. That almost polishes the Kirby spectrum of the epic story arcs he left us to ponder.

[@glowingcrowns1692]

I'll believe an artist before I believe a writer. No diss to stan Lee.

[@Giovanni-vt2xc]

Ditko maintained, correctly, for years that he co-created Spiderman; I wonder what his reaction was to Kirby saying “I created Spiderman” 😂

[@pulsarstargrave256]

Question: What super\hero teams did Stan Lee create without Jack Kirby? Answer: (*crickets chirping*) How about Kirby without Lee? Answer: The Newsboy Legion, The Boy Commandos, The Challengers of The Unknown, The New Gods, The Forever People, The Eternals, Captain Victory and The Galaxy Rangers and Satan's Six I'm not a Lee "basher" I just feel his strongest contributions were as the EDITOR first and the writer, second.

[@pulsarstargrave256]

I've told this story so often it might even be true but "most of the credit he gets" really involves Lee's editorial direction of the company, which cannot be disputed. The idea of "super heroes with super problems" was his baby and it extended beyond just the books he worked on with Kirby and Ditko but their whole line. As he pointed out himself, DC's books were more densely and perhaps, better plotted but Marvel tried to make their characters act like real people and that's what readers responded to! I just recently purchased volumes of the "famous" Denny O'Neil\Neal Adams Batman stories and the not as well celebrated Daredevil from the same time period and I enjoyed the Daredevil stories a LOT more even though Batman is my favorite character!

[@macsnafu]

Many of those were created *after* the FF and the many other early Marvel characters. Newsboy Legion and Boy Commandos were created by Joe Simon and Kirby together, not Kirby alone. Kirby gets sole credit for creating Challengers of the Unknown, but that's just about his only sole credit creation before the FF. As the video suggests, both Kirby and Lee were at low points in their career when they did the FF. Undoubtedly, the success of the FF and other Marvel characters boosted both of them and gave Kirby the confidence to do more solo creations later on. Of course, we're ignoring the huge number of monsters, aliens, mad scientists, and other characters Lee created not only with Kirby, but with other artists like Steve Ditko, Don Heck, Larry Leiber, Gene Colan, and others during the incredibly prolific Atlas period in the 1950s, because they were mostly throwaway stories just intended to keep the company going, not continuing characters, and are largely forgettable.

[@comicbookguy6361]

Silver Surfer, another Kirby's sole creation. I even dare to say that Galactus too. Stan Lee: "Hey Jack, let's do the Fantastic Four fight against God, Excelsior ! Jack Kirby response to that petition was Galactus.

[@Eveningbreeze1]

Spiderman and She-Hulk.

[@pulsarstargrave256]

@@Eveningbreeze1 Agree on She Hulk, Kirby says otherwise on Spider Man because he and Joe Simon created several "spider" guys and at least one boy scientist/ inventor (ala Peter Parker)!

[@Cervando]

If in doubt I tend to believe the other party where Stan Lee is involved. He frequently claimed sole responsibility for work that was often partially or completely done by others and/or plagiarized. Lee was often at odds with fellow workers because of this, which led to many others leaving Marvel and law suits, most notably Ditko. In fact, most of Lee's creations borrowed heavily from earlier work, not only from DC but smaller and long since gone companies. Thus Spiderman, the X-Men team and many individuals, Iron Man, Hawkeye etc were all based on earlier characters. Kirby also 'borrowed ' from his and other earlier work, such as the FF, Thor and Captain America, but he at least never denied it, unlike Lee. However, in this case I believe both were involved, but the similarities to Kirby's earlier Challenges of the Unknown are obvious, as he himself admitted he based the FF on them. I do think the elemental nature of their powers and origin was Lee's, but I think Kirby was responsible for the look and sci-fi stories, which were unusual at the time, but very much Kirby's thing. I suspect he changed the personality of Ben Grimm too, more in keeping with the feel of the CotU, as having him hate Richards and only hang around because of Sue is both creepy and unlikely to gain him any sympathy.

[@kenkenshiro6779]

well I know one thing for sure the silver surfer is purely jacks creation which became a very popular Fantastic Four character later on.

[@jamesakrap3824]

Okay, so the video isn’t too bad, but there are things that I want to point out first up, you say that the first 2 to 3 years of the fantastic four were very collaborative, but in an article Stanley wrote to a fan in 1963. He said that Jack was doing fantastic four stories saying that Jack was doing most of the work and all he was doing was a little bit of editing. Do you think you could do more videos on the subject of Marvel characters like Hulk, Thor, Ironman and Antman and do you think you can do a video discussing the controversy between Stanley and Jack Kirby also Wooley may have came up with the initial idea without Jack Kirby. I don’t think the fantastic for Marvel comics would’ve been very successful.

[@ThomasVanHoesenDeadpooliscool]

They definitely both are creatively responsible, it seems so obvious to me smh

[@KardboardKenny]

that's easy, Bob Kane...just ask him.

[@luthermanning6945]

Great detail. Do you think Challengers of the Unknown was what Kirby used to create the FF?

[@quacksackerthegreatstarfir6996]

There are definitely similarities between COTU and the FF so I think there must have been a little idea borrowing going on. But being an admitted Kirby fanatic I'm just naturally going to take his side in any discussion when it comes down to him VS Stan

[@gregorblack5557]

I always thought so & see the parallels .

[@Cervando]

Jack Kirby stated he used them as the basis of the Fantastic Four.

[@CavemanBatman]

Thank you! This video shows exactly the way it was. It was a collaborative effort that was 10% Lee and 90% Kirby. Great video 💜

[@comicbookguy6361]

Lol ! Good one by the way !

[@gregorblack5557]

Love it & id say 50-50

[@henrycuevas2834]

I'm glad you stressed that your conclusion is only your opinion. Here's another opinion It is from Roz Kirby... If Stan was so creative, what did he create AFTER Jack left Marvel? That is not sentimentalism. That's a fair question. The "Just Imagine Stan Lee" series from DC had Lee tweak already established heroes and the costume designs were from the respective artists, H

[@Rechargerator]

Have you read the FF and Thor stories Stan Lee "wrote" after Kirby left? They are terrible! His "epic" Thor story with Asgard faces off against (the other) Infinity is a laughable piece of crap. Kirby's last (unfinished) FF story introduced a new character and Stan never introduced another new character until he passed both titles off to other writers a year or two later. People forget how unimaginative, trite repetitive both the Fantastic For and Thor series became instantly after Kirby left. (despite John Buscema's art on both.) Romita clearly offered more story development than big John, because at least Spider-man was readable.

[@watchmanschannelofdespair]

A video about "Who created the Fantastic Four" and no mention of Kirby's DC work on _The Challengers of the Unknown,_ and the similarities between the two is simply bewildering?! For the comment, "I cover that in another video" in reply to another viewer's question over the same topic, grants you this well deserved "L".

[@dechefmane3526]

V

[@jackofallclaws6672]

What’s next, videos on The Tick or Megaton Man or Scud?

[@elijahfordsidioticvarietys8770]

Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.

[@theunknowngamer5477]

Have you heard the Fish Sticks joke? Let Cartman have some of the credit.

[@fredrikgranstrom6743]

Wtf

[@markhutchins7808]

No mention of all the strips Stan Lee tried to launch? Most folks got into the comic book business because they really wanted to get into newspaper strips

[@A1Authority]

There is no debate. Where is the band wagon, btw?

[@LeighMet]

Stan said Jack I want a team of heroes and lets base it on the Space race Jack said Here are Reed Richards the Storm Siblings Sue and Johnny with Ben Grimm

[@rickytoddbotelho9555]

Great doc.

[@corbindalis]

It's hard to trust anything Stan Lee says.

[@comicbookguy6361]

Besides, It is well known that Stan Lee had bad memory all his life, even he admitted that many times. My question is ...How can you trust a man with memory problems when he says something about the creation of the Marvel characters ?

[@WalterLiddy]

Excelcior!

[@Noyb.265]

Jack Kirby was full of shit and well into his era of Stan Lee character assassination at the time of the infamous interview. He had left Marvel and was a bitter old man whose solo creation of the New Gods at DC was laughable. It is a effing mess. It makes no sense to this day. Jack Kirby did his best work with Stan Lee. PERIOD. Kirby couldn't write his way out of a paper bag. No. The idea of the Fantastic Four was Stan Lee's. He came up with the name, the family dynamic and the names of the characters. One interview by a bitter old man is not going to rewrite that history. The notion that Jack Kirby created Spider-Man is hilarious. He touched up the costume design. No more. Anyone familiar with both Lee and Ditko's previous work can see that it reeks of both of them. There is nothing in it that says Jack Kirby. There's this whole mythology around Kirby that he was just nice little old man at his drawing board being taken advantage of. Wrong. He ended up a vindictive, bitter old man. Greatest superhero artist of all time? Sure, unless you've seen Neil Adams work in full flight. Kirby was a great fucking artist. What he was not was a good writer. Nor was he very adept at plotting as evidenced by all of his solo work where he tried. His dialogue was wordy, limp and everyone sounded the same. He couldn't arc out a coherent plot beyond one issue in length.

[@blastman2761]

Can't see how anyone believes Stan Lee created anything.

[@jcl5611]

San Lee created and co-created Spider-Man, the Hulk Black Panther, Daredevil, the X-Men, the Fantastic Four, Thor, and many more How hard is that to understand?

[@blastman2761]

@@jcl5611 Where's the proof? Him just saying he did it? the guy didn't even draw. You know the first issue of BP Kirby wrote,drew and even edited. WTH does Stan Lee come in...

[@jcl5611]

@@blastman2761 Stan lee was the writer and editor

[@vasp99]

It's fashionable to slander Stan Lee but without Stan it's highly unlikely that Kirby would even be remembered.