Style Select: Sumo In Fighting Games

Sumo is one of the oldest combat sports in the world. How is it represented in fighting games?
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[@TheNekoGentleman]

I actually had the chance to ask the question to my Japanese teacher a while ago (Late 2000, during said Yakuza Scandal), and her answer was simple: Sumo is basically treated as a religion, frozen in time, its tenent almost sacred. The few times a scandal rocked the scene, it was almost a matter of national security and pride, and they were often swept under the rug. I'd bet the issue with Sumo is not that it's boring because the developers want it to be, but because they almost have to, lest they get severe, massive backlash from the more traditionnal sides of the country. For example, your idea of a Yakuza Sumotori would be in some japanese circles the equivalent of making a Nazi a good guy / protagonist in the west. And outside of Stronheim and MAYBE Akatsuki, I don't know of such an example. However, the gaijin idea is sound, as there is somewhat of a precedent in Akebono Taro, the first Non-born japanese to reach the highest rank in the discipline.

[@BigBossMan538]

What a shame

[@ClexYoshi]

I had a strong feeling that was exactly the case, given the unbelievably regimented lifestyle.

[@agrippa2012]

Nah, I'm pretty sure i remember seeing a yakuza sumo in some anime or manga before. If im not mistaken it was Rurouni Kenshin (also known as Samurai X) So, unless my memory is playing tricks on me, its definitely not impossible

[@BronzeAgePepper]

​@@agrippa2012 I wonder though if the negative reaction is less enough for a minor antagonist for the manga writers to okay it, versus a full-blown playable character in a major fighting game franchise like SF or Tekken. Perhaps SNK could afford it, given the precedent with #1 Hinako's unorthodoxy (it's got the 'vtubers repeating Lamar in GTA5' defense of being too innocent/cute/funny to be truly offensive) and #2 the most "evil" criminals being mean dudes like Geese and Rugal, who are cruel and ruthless but still kind of just playing the role of cartoonish Big Bads of their respective criminal empires.

[@RockNRollHorrorshow]

And if you want to go completely off the rails with the Gaijin angle, you can base them instead off of Kototenta Toshikatsu aka John Tenta, an actual white guy who was discovered in Canada and recruited by a retired yokozuna

[@nathanmerck4724]

One thing I’m surprised about is how games with sumo characters aren’t incorporating an exaggerated version of what the style is made for: winning through knockdowns & ring outs. Obviously going exactly for these aren’t the best thing, but when translated to a fighting game, these can easily be turned into wall combos and otg attacks. If sumos want to get the opponent to the edge of the ring to win, make the moveset have plenty of wall bounces, high knockback, corner combos, ect. Also, if sumos want to get their opponent on the ground, give them a tool for massive otg damage so they are incentivized to play like a sumo. The gameplay of these characters doesn’t ever feel like anything more than character that has shove animations instead of punches most of the time.

[@TamakiMike]

Corner combos, wall bounces and OTG. So, just Hinako in 2002UM. She even grabs by the belt to carry the opponent to the corner. Problem with her "character" is that in KOF, if you aren't related of the main story, you get no story or development. They tried to do something with the Psycho Soldiers but kinda forgot about it 15 years ago and never went anywhere to the point they're not even featured in XV even though they're just as OG as the Ikari and Kim with the Korea Team.

[@nathanmerck4724]

@@scivoid Yeah I suppose that is fair. I watch people play fighting games more than I play them myself, so pardon my lack of knowledge, I was just talking off the cuff.

[@Mat-tg4fk]

@@scivoid Its a shame capcom has done so little for Honda as a character because his gameplay pace and animations really do a good job of sprinkling a slight fantasy onto sumo movement. Hes always low to the ground just waiting for you to fumble and only moves at an inhuman speed for his mass after he already has you trapped in a grab or combo. In general though sumo characters do need more action in the corner to compliment this fear inducing gameplay pace.

[@perfectlap9379]

@@scivoid you absolutely can. Several characters straight up revolve around either the wall or through looping knock downs. DVJ (All tekken games) Lee Chaolan Marduk King Zangief ST E Honda St T hawk (he literally has this as a loop) SFV Mika And just about any char that could do a vortex in Sf4 (ibuki, E ryu, akuma etc)

[@James-oj6ru]

With KOF, it’s the Kyo Clones’s, Shoto Kyo again except the added advantage of bullshit wall carrying ability (and back-and-forward loops) Honaka (hell), Ralf XIII (let’s be honest, you’re not doing shit if you’re not in a corner), XIII Takuma as he has the ability to side switch is foes You can make a sumo character revolve around a main mechanics of wall combos so easily, that these mid-top-the best character’s main strength is that they have great neutral and wall carrying ability… and they’re light weight shotos/rushdown

[@EZPZ_SoBadItsGood]

The Gaijin Sumo character is actually something that played out in real life. One of the greatest sumos was Konishiki Yasokichi who was born in Hawaii under a different name and was discovered by accident at a funeral he was attending. He almost made Yokozuna, but was passed over (allegedly) because of either him not being Japanese or not acting in a japanese way.

[@bbbbKeJodddd]

Also John Tenta, later Earthquake in the wwf. Had a 21-0-7 record

[@eyeizarandummugga]

@@bbbbKeJodddd And then there was Akebono, another Hawaiian born Sumo star. He was the first ever non-Japanese born Sumo wrestler to achieve Yokozuna.

[@aramondehasashi3324]

@@bbbbKeJodddd Whoa I didn't know Earthquake was a sumo!

[@bbbbKeJodddd]

@@aramondehasashi3324 his last match as earthquake was a worked sumo match. Like the only time wwf acknowledged his past professional career

[@Meloncarty]

yeah, a family friend of mine met him and they have a signature with his handprint.

[@AnthanKrufix]

The thing about Ganryu is that he actually started as such a better character than he is now.... Originally he was an up and coming prodigy, however he ran into some heavy gambling depts which caused him to enter the first Tekken Tournament... He didn't win, however during the tourney he managed to take Kazuya to round three, which impressed Kazuya so much that he employed Ganryu as a major enforcer in the Mishima Zaibatsu, Ganryu was literally a main character in Tekken2... However he fell in love with Michele and proposed to her, which she politely rejected, and Ganryu.. politely accepted and left her alone. ... During Tekken 3 and 4 Ganryu quit working for the Mishimas and went to have his own sumo stable and was working down diligently at his job.... But then he saw Julia on TV and decided to sit down so hard on the idiot ball that it got lost permanently up there and now suddenly he was the most dim-witted stalker simp who's entire character became the guy who makes funny faces when he gets rejected, and his plot relevance became a footnote at the end of whatever Julia is doing.. The Tekken 1 and 2 Ganryu's plot was literally told on a postitnote sized paragraph in the leaflet which came with the game disc... and they still made a better character than the Ganryu in Tekken 5 onwards. What.. the fuck..

[@polodok9988]

Seems alot of the characters after Tekken 5 began going downhill

[@Zenn_Chan]

Gotta say, a story being described as "He fell in love, proposed to her, which she politely rejected and he politely accepted" is shockingly nice to hear.

[@Silvershire]

The sad thing is that Ganryu could have become something close to your Yakuza idea if they didn't do the whole creepy obsession with the Changs thing: his original story was that he was dishonorably discharged from the sport of sumo because of illegal gambling and became a bodyguard for Kazuya. People tend to forget that he used to be a villain because they've just turned him into an unfunny joke.

[@chubbubdreamer6904]

That's such a weird change of character. Like, why?

[@bhlakbatosai]

@@chubbubdreamer6904 blame Harada. He gave the same treatment to Eddy Gordo in Tekken 7 getting clowned by Lucky Chloe when he has an unresolved vendetta against Kazuya for killing his father

[@gspandem1204]

@@bhlakbatosai I mean, blame most of the story. It acts as if 99% of the cast doesn't exist. If this was just a joke arcade ending, and it was addressed in the story mode as a side story (Like Blazblue), then it would be fine. Hell, Eddy needed his turn in the loony bin anyways.

[@GodbodyRoku]

After he was with Kaz he went to run a sumo stable himself but afterwards he wasn't in to it. I mean he was always into Michelle so him finding Julia was gonna make him have a love interest. Though in T6 he was about his restaurant Chanko Paradise.

[@GodbodyRoku]

Actually he was a bodyguard for Heihachi not so much Kaz. He worked with Heihachi during T1

[@yosoyflips]

I'd still like a female sumo to be a big girl. There's definitely room for a joke anime character like Hinako, but i just also like the idea of a girl being bullied for her size turning to the sport as a source of motivation and inspiration. Maybe she's meek and demure. Maybe she's positive and confident. Maybe that's a character arc. Also fine with slim people, regardless of gender, excelling at the sport as a joke/novelty. Like people who imitate kung Fu movies except they happen to like sumo. Lastly, a superstar Sumo, someone who holds traditions but adds some suave, flamboyance, and arrogance to their presentation.

[@juniorjunior5884]

Let's have two of them in one series. A small sumo girl who wants to be big and a shy big sumo girl. Their styles could be different based on their size and the comedy and character growth writes itself.

[@whodatboi2567]

I don't think the bullied girl idea would work, I better example would be a female character becoming plus size as a result of the process sumo wrestlers undergo to achieve their physique.

[@silverhawkscape2677]

Sumo Wrestlers aren't exactly fat. They literally are like Kingpin. Muscle. Just that they aren't building for toned Muscles.

[@harrylane4]

@@whodatboi2567 so bob from tekken

[@azuredragon8388]

@@whodatboi2567 I'd say there genuine merit in either argument

[@malbo-]

The thing about hinako is that well, she's a kof character, storywise the only kof characters allowed to have any amount of depth to them are the protagonists of each saga or the characters close to them. Which is why we have such iconic and beloved characters as the fatal fury or art of fighting ones that have just been comic relief for decades. Snk really doesn't care about giving their characters compelling storylines

[@MeatOfJustice]

I don't know if I would call Antonov close to Shun'ei but he gets quite a bit of development.

[@James-oj6ru]

SNK has the ability to write good stories, the drama CD, the endless amounts of mangas, _the drama CD of Last Blade,_ *the endless amounts of mangas,* the Orochi Saga and NEST Chronicles and _EEEENDLESS_ amounts of OVAs proves that But they now kinda just hyper focus on a storyline now, not alot of branching paths or other character’s story being expanded, Hinako doesn’t have much characterization because _she has nearly no characterizations_

[@NikiYKN]

That's not really true. Fatal Fury and Art of Fighting characters don't get much because they already have their own franchises, but most original characters in KoF, main characters or not, do get something. Even teams like Psycho Soldier and Ikari, which come from other SNK games, have or at least used to have some unique storylines, because they had original characters like Bao, Heidern, Leona and Whip in their teams. Hanako is a original character. I'd say her problem is that she was made to fill up a spot in the Women's Team, a team whose storylines are nothing but a joke most of the time.

[@ppprime98K]

@@NikiYKN More or less, the only characters that had development that aren't part of hero teams are Heidern, Leona, Kensou and Bao. Ralf and Clark always are the heavy army dudes, Athena is always the "pure idol" that fights. And that DROPPED almost entirely after SNK went bankrupcy for the first time. The last thing we saw a non-main character get involved in a story actively was K' helping the ST stopping Mukai, and Heidern but him is just a outside pretending to help where in the end does nothing. I would like to see the main franchise progression on KOF, as they did with the addition of MoTW characters and AoF Gaiden too. Sometimes it looks that FF characters aren't allow to be anything more than their FF2 countepart and AoF with AoF2. And even create temporal rivalries as if it were a wrestling match, like they did in XV with Krohnen and K', their teams had the best non-main story and the best endings, and they didn't need to involve Verse or whatever the XV bosses were.

[@andyblanton6570]

@@NikiYKN Fatal fury hasn't had a game for 23 years, and art of fighting hasn't for 26. They do have count.

[@RetroWrathX13B]

The most I ever cared for Sumo was when one of my bunk mates in the Army told me a little about it. One day, everyone in the bay was sparring in some way. We had people doing BJJ and wrestling, boxing, kickboxing and I turned around in time to see my bunk mate and a new arrival fucking Sumoing in the center of the bay

[@ashtar3876]

I mean tbf sumo seems kinda like judo without a gi

[@azu1394]

@@ashtar3876 thinking about it as judo for big guys is the best way to think about it imo

[@dariuswilliams7509]

@@ashtar3876 Well judo came from Koryu Jujutsu which took from early forms of Sumo

[@tubazo1989]

I agree that the culture we are raised in has an influence in what we consider cool or lame. I wonder if Japanese kids grow up thinking being an American Football Lineman is inspiring since I've always seen Sumo and Linemen as culturally similar. A huge part of both sport, a large body shoving and pushing the other, and the "all or nothing" commitment lifestyle to maintain the stature. Plus popular culture didn't do any favors. The high flying acrobatics of Ray Mysterio lead to an awakening of USA folks who discovered Mexican Lucha.....whereas the closest we got to Sumo pre-internet was Rakishi's booty.

[@HighLifeProds17]

There's technically Yokozuna, too, but I don't know if that's much better...

[@coolmancool]

I can think of only one American Football fighting game character, that being Johnny Maximum from World Heroes. I think it could be an interesting idea if developped further imo.

[@ChapyGuy]

@@coolmancool Check out Brian Battler in KoF. He's at his best in '98 UMFE where he just spins in circles like helicopter blades and twirls all over the place in oddly slow psycho crushers lmao

[@leithaziz2716]

@@coolmancool I think KOF has an American sports team, but they're constantly treated as the butt of the joke, sooo maybe not the best example.

[@Vesperitis]

​@@HighLifeProds17 There was also the time when Big Show fought Akebono in a Sumo match at Wrestlemania... and it is considered to be one of the worst Wrestlemania segments/'matches' ever.

[@braystar8578]

I assume Sumo is just 'hard' to depict as cool while also being as authentic as possible due to the nature of it. But it doesn't help that the most interesting character is Hinako who is most notable for being a small Russian-Japanese schoolgirl. But that, at least, shows the power of designs. If you had a cool Sumo Wrestler as you described with the first two ideas, even the more basic of moves will look cool because you have the, well, character of the character to personalise those basic moves. Also fancy effects.

[@Ramsey276one]

Hinako could be the next Love Hashira! XD

[@SolManDude]

sumo has alot of grappling moves and is all about explosive force. sumo bouts are short. very short. you blow your load almost instantly. a good sumo character would be a charge based grappler.

[@kevingriffith6011]

@@SolManDude That's basically SF2 honda, with his negative edge oicho throw allowing him to input command throws while also holding down+back and never leaving an opening to get hit. Sumos pretty universally all have great corner carry, as well, which is fitting for a sport where the objective is to push your opponent out of the ring. I don't think the problem is embodying the style, I think it's purely that nobody has actually made it look "good". Part of the trouble is that Sumo is a sub-type of the "Big guy" character, and the sumo is almost never the biggest guy on the cast... so the only place that they stand out is that they're fat guys in fancy underwear.

[@prime98k4]

Well, fighting games managed to make Aikido somewhat cool

[@KILLAKREED3MIL]

They should give a sumo character "gum gum jet pistol" style slaps to liven things up a little. Or just let the guilty gear team make a sumo character they're bound to make something special.

[@Neoxon619]

Your point is even more illuminated by the fact that Honda isn’t exactly that popular of a character despite how iconic he is. That said, I do like some of your ideas on how to do a unique spin on a sumo character. Though the last one could still benefit Hinako with a story rework in KoFXV.

[@Mclucasrv]

but its not likeXV stories are amazing so I cant see better to be honest.

[@NeoBoneGirl]

E Honda is so unpopular that it took him close to 4 years to get into SFV, despite being one of the 8 original characters. I’m surprised they put him in at all tbh

[@HellecticMojo]

@@NeoBoneGirl I was really hoping that Honda's inclusion was a precursor to including Hakan. Hakan would've been so good for SFV

[@NeoBoneGirl]

@@HellecticMojo Season 4 was supposed to be the last season, so E Honda wouldn’t have really been a “precursor” to anything if you consider Season 5 shouldn’t even exist

[@stephensmith7327]

Or that kinda character played somewhat straight in that she's 22 and built like Noi from Dorohedro.

[@NurseValentineSG]

Something alongside Aganos comes to my mind. Imagine some kind of earthelemental or earthbender or whatnot. They specifically summon walls, obstacles or whatever to push the enemy over them. To crash them inside them with takedowns. To hundred-hand-slap them against a wall so they cannot escape. So now you have a sumo-wrestler who has the ability to use his fighting-style anywhere at full power. He can tear up the ground for a takedown that puts you deep below. He could even slap from behind you with his earthhands or something. Have the sumo-stop and clap specifically to change the area. Have the salt as freaking pocked sand. If Karate is allowed to shoot fireballs and having flaming fist and feet, that should be just as wacky.

[@crinsombone5380]

I love Killer Instinct and earthbending so I want this idea to happen

[@badstain7700]

Having a character that use the very "ring" itself to attack would put a spin to but Sumo in fighting games and fighting games as a whole.

[@Chaos-Zakai64]

If Nickelodeon ever made an Avatar fighting game and Toph was playable in it..... Ahh, the possibilities.

[@KingZolem]

@@Chaos-Zakai64 She is playable in a fighting game. And yes the earth constructs do lend themselves to some shenanigans.

[@bluecanine3374]

After watching I was about to comment the same thing but you beat me to it. Sumo may be a combat sport with a ring, like boxing or the like, but the whole sport revolves around it in that the match is determined by it whereas with others it is just treated as an arena to fight in. It is an environmental sport in that way and since fighting games aren't only about ringouts and being able to move freely, to have sumo implemented you HAVE to being the ring into it. So summoning walls or the like is a great idea, also give it a sense of impact and visual flair. But maybe not just a way for the visuals to make sense, but gameplay too. What if the wall summoned has health? It can limit the fighting area forcing keep away projectile spam characters up close for a period of time. Or as you combo your enemy against the wall it cracks more and more so you have yo time your finishers to combos right otherwise you drop the combo and become vulnerable, but if you smash the wall at its last hit of health with a combo finisher it does extra damage.

[@kevingriffith6011]

So they actually managed to inject some conflict into E Honda in Street Fighter 6's world tour mode, and I think it both makes him more interesting and also is a fun little tongue-in-cheek bit from Capcom about the nature of Honda's sumo. See, Honda has never actually achieved the rank of Yokozuna thanks to his unorthodox style and travel habits. (Apparently the ability for a human to fly unaided is not only a defiance of the laws of nature, but also the laws of the Sumo Association). So Honda is now doing everything in his power to promote his own unique brand of sumo in hopes that the sumo association will be forced to acknowledge him as a real, true sumo wrestler. So now while his actions basically stay the same "promote sumo" now he actually has an end goal to achieve and a personal conflict, which is huge progress.

[@z1u512]

You also forgot to mention honda finding out there are people around the world that dislikes and even condemns his style, and him trying to change their mind about his unique style

[@DamienBlade]

So, he was disqualified because he took a plane because it broke the laws of nature, but not because he was able to superman fly across the ring head first? Priorities!

[@kevingriffith6011]

@@DamienBlade I was trying to say 'because he could fly without using a plane'. IE his superman headbutt and butt slam. He just doesn't take an airplane like an ordinary sumo, and worst of all he's teaching other people to do it! Even now in metro city if you look into the sky sometimes you can see a guy flying around with sumo headbutt!

[@nightmarearcade2663]

Not only that but Honda even before sf6 arguably had more to him than on the surface. He's still the sumo guy but he wants to share the sport with literally everyone. He wants it in the Olympics and depending on how you design your player character in SF6, he's more than willing to teach the art to anyone regardless of race or gender. Which I genuinely find interesting, he's so into the sport that he believes that everyone regardless of background should be allowed to take part in it.

[@Aaa-vp6ug]

So THAT’s why he just launches himself like a big missile!

[@MrXziper]

I recently read a short Manga called "Cowa!" by Akira Toriyama and there's a character on there that has a Sumo background with an interesting problem. Maruyama was one of the best Sumo wrestlers of all time, and is considered to be the strongest man alive. However, he once threw his opponent out of the ring so hard, that he killed him. He gives up on Sumo because of the guilt, and now wants to be left alone so he can live in a cabin and fish. Meanwhile some rumors spread that he's a murderer, while others wish for his return to sumo. I recommend this quick 14 chapter manga. It's also your typical action/comedy from Toriyama and is a fun read!

[@rolandoruiz7659]

8:14 Basically you’re looking for the Japanese version of Spider-Man’s Wilson Fisk.

[@cairocopper3238]

Not sure if anyone here has read Kengan Ashura, but Kiozan Takeru would be such a welcome addition to a fighting game. Especially given his attitude toward Sumo itself, he'd be such a character mold breaker. Especially since his whole arc is that he has lost faith in Sumo and is trying to break from tradition, and his first fight is all about someone who has whole heartedly embraced his martial art (that being Pro Wrestling).

[@quaggyboy4277]

Need SugarBT to read this comment for real especially that I really like him being the subversion of a sumo wrestler..

[@bloodwingdragon6486]

If Kengan were to get a 2d or 3D fighter, I'd like to see Kiozan as a character who starts off with just barebones sumo, then after he loses a round switches to ancient sumo. Maybe give him a command grab where he grabs his opponents hair and causes them to be stunned to reference him vs Seki.

[@Impalingthorn]

I was gonna say, Kengan Ashura is one of the few times I've seen a Sumo Wrestler shown for how COOL they can actually be when done right.

[@manicdogma2240]

The entire manga of Hinomaru Zumou is another good example. The whole thing is entirely about Sumo as a sport, and follows a relatively short wrestler through his career. It doesn't go to superhuman levels or anything, but it's stylised in a very compelling way.

[@HellecticMojo]

"You don't love sumo do you?"

[@pleasecallmedoku7215]

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that the reason why every sumo character is "Mr. Sumo Man" like you called is because of how much being a sumo wrestler impacts your lifestyle, sumo has to be your top priority 24/7. Also, I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure tattoos are a no-go in sumo (not sure how allowed Honda's kabukiesq face paint is) but you're Yakuza Sumoka idea sounds awesome. What's more threatening than a "Big Man"? A Big BIG Man

[@SasamiTM]

Well that could be as easy as he’s not a competitor but just a yakuza who’s a huge sumo fan, even sets up his own ring and have a conflict around him kidnapping rakishi to pit himself against, playing it straight with him being merciless and leaving them broken and bloodied or having this powerful crime boss go excited fanboy, eager for an autograph and a “friendly” match, set up a rivalry with a fighter who absolutely demolished his fan favorite

[@azu1394]

You cannot have any artificial cosmetics, the closest it gets is being able to shave your head if you go bald. As a little fun fact is that in the sf2 days they held a tournament at the kokugikan(national sumo stadium) and banned e.honda for the face paint you described.

[@fletch-a-sketch9250]

Your Crime Boss Sumo and Gaijin Sumo character concepts gave me a cool idea. Marvel’s Kingpin, especially in the Insomniac Spider-Man games, is portrayed as being extremely into traditional Japanese culture. His massive frame and obsession with ancient Japan would make him a perfect sumo archetype character if he were to be added to a MvC game.

[@AmazingSpider-Man]

In the comics sumo actually is his fighting style of choice, and he also knows others.

[@maskofice9432]

The interesting thing to me is I actually have a level of respect for sumo from the anime Hinomaru Sumo, and that show managed to have a bunch of different characters that had different approaches to sumo. Yes it's different for a sports series based around that sport vs the singular character representing the fighting style, but it shows that yes, you can have sumo characters be something more than just the sport

[@axelwust9376]

And the fact that they managed to portray the fighting style as cool should be at the very least commendable

[@nerdwarp112]

That series is what made me realize how cool sumo wrestling is. I’ve never gotten to see a match in real life, but I’d love to see one at least once.

[@user-tzzglsstle585e38]

@@axelwust9376 Sumo was always pretty cool, it's just that a lot of the times; that factor has been outshined by ridicule especially outside of japan.

[@ushou_5586]

The way many manga that include sumo characters have dodged the "sumo man" trope is pretty across the board: "Ancient Sumo". They always call back to the first sumo fight, in which the victory was achieved by a kick shattering the ribs.These characters want to "reform" sumo, or bring back "ancient sumo". (Kiozan Takeru from Kengan Ashura, Nomi no Sukune II from Baki)

[@wildwaymartialarts]

Thor from kenichi

[@samr.1124]

When I started playing Street Fighter 5 I instantly gravitated to E Honda, something about his chill attitude and his never ending love for his sport really charmed me, and he has became one of my favorite characters in fighting games since then, even though he doesn’t have any presence in the actual story of street fighter I can’t help but love him for how much he loves his sport! and playing him actually got me into watching sumo as well, it’s quite entertaining!

[@azu1394]

Got any favorite rikishi currently?

[@chibinya]

@@azu1394 Wakatakakage is really cool!

[@azu1394]

@@chibinya he is really getting a burst of popularity, that usually happens to the shorter guys when they do well, like enho

[@TheSultan1470]

Nice!

[@youdaman1000]

Just jumping in to rectify a couple of errors in your explanation of the rules of sumo. 1: No kicking above the belt is true but that's because no kicking is allowed period.(NEVERMIND I'M WRONG I LOOKED IT UP AGAIN AND KICKS ARE IN FACT ALLOWED BELOW THE BELT THEY'RE JUST NEVER SEEN) Foot sweeps are allowed however in order to trip or unbalance the opponent. You can look up "Kekaeshi" or "Suso-harai". 2: No grabbing below the belt is true only in the sense that you're not allowed to grab the groin or ass area of the opponent. Grabbing anywhere on the legs or feet of the opponent is fine and very normal in sumo so your animation for that is not correct. You can look up "Ashitori" or "Kozumaturi".

[@diablorojo3887]

are you sure about the number 1

[@youdaman1000]

@@diablorojo3887 Yeah no kicking allowed except if you count the foot sweeps. You can google the examples I mentioned if you're curious what it looks like.

[@Bulju]

@@diablorojo3887 I follow and practice sumo myself and your suspicion is correct. The rule is only written as "no kicking above the belt". They don't want any ambiguity in regards to what counts as a footsweep and what counts as a kick, so technically kicks below the belt are allowed. You'll never see a muay thai style kick in sumo not because it's illegal, but because it's not useful and doing it in such a small ring is just asking for trouble.

[@diablorojo3887]

@@Bulju I know, is simply a more polite way to say that the original post is not correct, anyway "no kick on sumo" is a common mistake .

[@youdaman1000]

@@diablorojo3887 You know what you guys opened my eyes you're absolutely right there's no rule especially banning kicks. The more you know. I'm gonna edit my comment to say I was wrong. I initially googled it after hearing it in the video and the first link I found had no kicking in the prohibited list. But I now realize that I was reading the rules for sumo in the US so in other words the rules for amateur sumo. Throughout the years I must have watched thousands of sumo bouts and I've never seen what I would have categorized as a kick so I just assumed it was a prohibited move, and there are also no kimarite that would specifically include a kick other than the foot sweeps so it just fit my assumption.

[@therealHLY]

yeah, sadly most sumo characters just end up being very... Sumo. I think that part of it is that sumo is as much a lifestyle as a martial art, so its depictions tend to be very... samey, but also because, well, when people say sumo you think og one thing.

[@Noperare]

I got this feeling too. Sumo characters are all about sumo and nothing else, because that is pretty much how real sumo fighters are. Like he pointed, sumo is not a fight style, it is a LIFE style.

[@assassin8636]

Um not all of them are they have different personalities depending on the characters

[@nick-playercharacter8583]

Another issue with sumo in fighting games is that it's a highly inflexible style built around fighting other sumo practitioners and absolutely nobody else. Look up any real style-vs-style match involving a sumo wrestler and you will see a sumo getting their ass handed to them every time. The posture that protects sumos against grappling and takedowns leaves them wide open to striking, so anyone who isn't restricted from doing just that is going to mash their head like a potato and sumo doesn't have a counter to that.

[@seanwilliams7655]

@Random Username the problem is, once you add a lot of stuff, it's not Sumo anymore. Now it's Judo or whatever else. Best case scenario is you get a guy like Kiozan Takeru from Kengan Ashura. He used what he called "ancient Sumo", which has more punches and kicks in it. But it doesn't look like sumo. I think there's a desire to include sumo because you also include pro wrestling moves. The difference is, a lot of pro wrestling moves would hurt if they were doing them for real. An armbar hurts. A powerbomb hurts. The real solutions to sumo in games is to take it out.

[@zoromax10]

@@seanwilliams7655 I disagree. Judo for example has no strikes, only grappling, less of a ground focus than jiu jitsu, it's as limited as sumo. Still, Goro Daimon, while not the most interesting character on kof, is still as entertaining and extra as anyone on the cast, while being clearly a judoka and having tools needed to work in his game Sumo can do the same Also, about it being actually hurtful, have you been pushed with 2 hands by someone the double of your side? I'll tell you, it will break your ribs

[@seanwilliams7655]

@@zoromax10 Judo doesn't have the cultural significance of Sumo. At least not to my knowledge. Of course they can technically add some stuff to Sumo, but would you get push back about that? I don't know how things work culturally around Sumo, but considering that most fighting games are made by Japanese companies, it might not be a risk they want to take.

[@zoromax10]

@@seanwilliams7655 yeah, but that's not what was being argued, is it? That is the reason we don't see sumo in fighting games, not because they "wouldn't fit", "wouldn't be versatile enough" or "not violent or flashy enough"

[@jonaderjona5805]

The problem is that no actual active top-tier Rikishi would ever be allowed to publically involve themselves in another fighting martial art promotion or something of the sort. What you do have are Rikishi beyond their prime or 'amateur' sumoka, but no active Yokozuna has ever had a public match against a boxer for example. Also, in what way would the match be held? Weight-classes certainly couldn't apply. And since Sumo techniques traditionally don't lead to knockouts (except if they do) the Sumoka would have to resolve to brawling or something else and then it wouldn't be Sumo anymore. For the sake of fairness then, the setting would have to be alien to both combattants and suddenly you have a street brawl in which a 170 Kilo guy rams a much lighter opponent into a wall. In such a scenario the physical advantage of a Sumoka alone would topple nearly any foe.

[@Chosen1up]

I actually had a concept for a sumo character back in the day that I was hoping could work out well. The character themselves is a monster-like character who lives on a mountain that hosts a hot spring. One day, a sect of sumo wrestlers find the spring and set up camp. Our monster man watches the sumo and becomes interested in their lifestyle, respecting their size and strength. He eventually begins to do his own sumo training hoping to one day join his new guests. He'd be a pure grappler with the armor he gets being a reflection of sumo wrestlers emphasis on staying on their feet and taking hits. He'd be unrefined in the art which would allow for a wider array of moves and his monstrous size would sell the power of sumo takedowns and positioning the opponent easily. Being a monster he'd naturally face the challenge of being accepted as he his while also keeping the idea of being inspired by the art of sumo wrestling to make the art itself the focus of the character. I scrapped this idea for a different take on a grappler I'd like but I still feel like it could be an interesting concept.

[@DarkMaker75]

You'd think fighting game devs would have made a yokai sumo character by now. Seeing as sumo has ties to Shinto & Japanese myth. Cool idea either way.

[@HenshinFanatic]

Yeah, it's an easy pick for a fighting style used by a Kappa character.

[@omargoodman2999]

I could easily see an Oni in this role. And it takes some of the best aspects of the Yakuza/criminal Sumo, the Gaijin Sumo, and the odd body type Sumo and fuses them together. Oni are *often* depicted as wild and violent, and also some lead groups of human bandits. So the notion of both representing an outlaw group as well as engaging with a group of humans is there. But, at the same time, while they are part of Japanese culture and folklore, they are also foreign to Japanese values and social structure. They don't act the way Japan expects and demands people in its society to behave; much like Gaijin. But they are still _of_ Japan. And lastly, such a character wouldn't be _just_ "big Sumo man". Sure, he'd still be *big* so it isn't a subversion of "Sumo, but petite" but he wouldn't be "Sumo shaped". And such a character also has built-in personal arc, challenges, goals, and conflict. Oni represent the violence of nature; the potential for natural phenomena to do harm. Rain nourishes crops and prevents drought, but storms can be destructive. Volcanoes leave destruction in their path, but deposit rich nutrients to make fertile soil. Wild animals provide food for people, but can also be dangerous and deadly. And even human nature; passion and honor can yield to anger and spite. Such a character, vicious and wild by nature but seeking to emulate an honorable, disciplined tradition of Japanese culture, represents a balance point between extremes, representing both the helpful and harmful aspects of nature. He has to overcome extreme prejudice as well as his own wild tendency in order to be accepted. As an Oni, he values strength and sees Sumo as a path to a unique kind of strength that he had never known before; the strength of humans that his kind otherwise thought of as weak, but in Sumo he sees them demonstrate that there is more than just one path to Strength. And, lastly, the challenge of whether or not he'd really be able to learn all this merely by observation and self-teaching; because his style would be rough, unrefined, and forever colored by his Oni nature. It even addresses the superhuman aspect mentioned in the video; who better to take Sumo to a superhuman limit than an inhuman being naturally bigger and more powerful than any human could ever be? Sumoni wouldn't just throw you out of the ring, he'd throw you out of the prefecture. Sumo chest slaps are typically used to break your opponent's defense and disrupt their balance; Sumoni's slaps flat-out break their ribs and disrupt their *everything.* Every Sumo move could be turned to 11 in the hands of an Oni.

[@shadowclaw7210]

@@omargoodman2999 I kind went different directions. Frankenstein monster as Sumo wrestler.

[@thecreepoid901]

While a MOBA and not a fighting game, Smite has a character that is a really interesting take on sumo, Kuzenbo, the king of kappas. In Japanese folklore, it is said that kappas taught humanity the sport of sumo, and the yokai love this sport. Alot of his moves are focused on rushing and pushing the enemy around, his animations include the footstomp and the spreading of salt, and his attire is basically a mawashi. While not as drenched in sumo as some other characters, it is a still a major part of the character, and fits very nicely with the legendary origins of the sport.

[@NeoBoneGirl]

I can count on one finger the amount of times I've seen Sumo depicted in a cool way, and that sole example is basically just Shuumatsu no Valkyrie/Records of Ragnarok, and that is precisely because he manages to bring Sumo to the superhuman level

[@noukan42]

And that is mostly wwe moves anyway.

[@chengoo]

“Foreign Sumo Wrestler” Speaking of which, that can be a perfect opportunity to showcase the Mongolian Sumo Wrestlers. Have their style be a hybrid between traditional sumo and Mongolian wrestling.

[@Nomadd_d]

The most badass Sumo character for me personally is "Sumo Kong" is a Donkey kong jungle beat boss, literally a Big gorilla with red eyes who fights you in a burning meteor. That sht is Cool af

[@sharzinlalebazri5673]

when I was watching the video, an idea that came to my mind was that of a sumo wrestling punk / non-conformist. someone who used to be a by the books and traditional Sumo guy but later got sick and tired of the heavily regimented lifestyle and traditions, deciding to rebel against it by openly smoking, drinking, wearing outfits inspired by the western punk movement or Japanese Visual Kei fashion, indulging in unhealthy eating habits and being as disrespectful as possible towards any notion of tradition or culture. he can still have the sumo wrestler body type and use sumo wrestling moves but now his moveset will have a lot more options available (maybe even intentionally using strikes that are explicitly illegal in sumo wrestling as an act of rebellion) and he can have a way better design and personality.

[@thebolas000]

I'd be down for a bosuzoku sumo that uses his pompadour to push people out of the ring.

[@psychoshonen]

Slight correction, grabbing below the waist is absolutely permitted in sumo. Techniques like ashitori (a leg pick, often performed by the current wrestler Ura), and watashikomi depend on it.

[@thelastgogeta]

My thought on the foreign sumo wrestler is that you could hypothetically get a lot of mileage even if they happened to be Korean or mixed Korean rather than say a blond Swed. Rikidozan is a real person and who had a stint in pro wrestling. It shows that not every sumo wrestler is cut from the same cloth even in the 1940s. I guess it has the risk of getting dated with games set in the real world if you look at Zangief who has been lightly modernised but it is something. More fictional worlds might have an easier time. Capoeira is gonna be good, but the others are great as promising.

[@AngraMainyu24]

The foreigner Sumo wrestler is probably anachronistic by now given how dominant Mongolians are in the sport. There's probably more potential in the reverse, a nationalistic Sumo Wrestler trying to recover the sport for Japan who comes to see the error of his ways.

[@devoncampbell3607]

@@AngraMainyu24 true, like 6 out of the last seven yokozuna have been Mongolian, and there were two Americans who also achieved the rank.

[@ushou_5586]

there's also Tochinoshin from Georgia, and the retired Oosunaarashi from Egypt

[@devoncampbell3607]

@@ushou_5586 there have been several successful European rikishi.

[@Chaos-Zakai64]

Has there ever been an African American sumo wrestler? The darker skin color would allow him to "pop" visually against the others. An African American sumo character in a fighting game would look distinct from the very few other sumo fighting game characters out there. NOTE - If any of what I said here sounded racist I'm sorry. That wasn't my intention.

[@kamikaze4172]

Interestingly, Sumo's so deep in tradition, that a man who passed out in the ring either died or nearly died because the medical staff closest were women. They're not allowed within the ring

[@chungusumungus4004]

First, Ganryu is a treasure. His Tekken 7 redesign really pushes him into a unique space and leans much more into the existing comedy of his character. Second, E. Honda does have an obvious narrative struggle that Capcom could work with but they chose not to. His motivation is to prove that Sumo is a valid fighting style that can compete with more practical styles. However, Honda himself has to break the style and go against Sumo between his various attacks. This obvious hypocrisy provides an actual struggle for him, but Capcom just doesn't bite at this opportunity.

[@Gakido117]

itd be interesting to see him ridiculed for abandoning the fundamentals of sumo. I was just watching Kengan Asura on netflix and they literally have this as a character arc for someone and it already is way more engaging to me.

[@Kaimax61]

Honda keeps relegated to " OH NO, MUH BATH HOUSE" story... sadly...

[@notthephonz]

That’s an interesting angle, but I think the story writers haven’t gone for it because Honda’s deviations from sumo style probably aren’t canon. Like, Honda has a high kick for gameplay purposes, but he’s probably not actually kicking people in the head in the actual story. Then and again, the game designers did avoid giving the boxing character kick moves at all, so maybe Honda’s high kicks are canonical after all.

[@Gakido117]

​@@notthephonz My thoughts as well. I was brainstorming this yesterday at work and honestly it'd make more sense if honda used a hand slap instead of a kick as they already show in game he can hit pretty damn hard with his palms.

[@eieneidnf]

As someone who doesn't follow tekken that much, did he get a new VA for 7? Cause if he did that would definitely help on the comedic side of things

[@mortimerwake2974]

It's worth mentioning that there are Sumo variants that exist outside of Japan, perhaps most notably in Mongolia. It doesn't all need to be Super Japan Man the way E. Honda is written. I like your ideas. Sumo + Yakuza tattoos is a great idea visually. One thing that would also be worth exploring is seeing how Sumo gets written in manga -- including "Baki" and "Kengan," as well as entire series dedicated just to Sumo, notably "Hinomaru Sumo".

[@Red-in4fx]

I won't really call Bokh a "Sumo variant". It has its own origins. I get what you're saying but saying that's Bokh a sumo variant's kinda disrespectful.

[@mortimerwake2974]

@@Red-in4fx Forgive me, let's call it an analogous sport like, say, Pankration is. I just called it a variant because it sometimes gets called "Mongolian Sumo", though that's probably a bit chauvinistic in the same way that calling kung fu "Chinese boxing" is. Anyway, I apologize for the disrespect, it was not my intention.

[@unseencrowyomare4143]

Kiozan was a beast. And also would make very cool. A sumoka, disillusioned with his/her/their style, and goten to ask "why don't we/I just punch or kick". Bang, sumo character who has crisis of "faith". Otherwise, in skandinavia, there ia similar wrestling style to Bokh and Sumo. Glima, where you would grap opponents belt loops (the belt has extra pieces that fasten the belt around thighs) instead of vest like in bokh. I think unlike sumo, in glima, it's deemed unhonorable to look your opponent into their eyes. I would love to try bokh, but I live far away from mongolia.

[@CHADCONTEXT]

@@mortimerwake2974 From what I learned in Mongolia, Bokh is possibly older than Sumo. And China has an interesting similar wrestling sport. Kengan's sumo is underrated, not much is even mentioned and I wish it was better described just like Baki Dou II's ancient sumo.

[@CHADCONTEXT]

@@unseencrowyomare4143 Yo Glima is badass! A standing wrestling style, I wish I could go for a try. I don't think Kiozan was disillusioned, he was good with Ancient Sumo I wish he stayed with it.

[@johngr1747]

I am a fan of Sumo characters personally I overall admire the martial art because it's regarded as the "Fat guys push each other off the ring" while it has various techniques and a pretty cool history

[@MagmaMKII]

You could easily write a Sumo character who is simply bored of traditional Sumo and wants to branch out to create his own Sumo style variation, seeking out other martial artists and learning their styles to try and discover what he could apply to his own.

[@andret3739]

You just described Kiozan from the manga Kengan Ashura, probably one of the coolest sumo fighters in fiction and even then he is not really that cool

[@radical_ans]

The gaijin sumo character is basically John Tenta aka Earthquake in the WWE. He was a top sumo in Japan in the late 80s until he was more or less driven out of the sport by traditionalists. Adapting his story to a fighting game, complete with a pro wrestling arc would be cool as hell.

[@y_s4021]

There was that anime, Hinomaru Zumou (which doesn't seem will be getting a second season, as you can imagine). It was pretty cool and you have all your standard shonen archetypes but in sumo. The wild ones, the stoic ones, the coward ones, the ones that came from karate or wrestling... The mc's arc is that he wants to be a Yokozuna champion despite his small stature and being told to give up. Personally, I'd like to see a Akuma type, but in sumo.

[@Gakido117]

big flashy throws with fire effects would be fun.

[@nick-playercharacter8583]

Depending on the setting, a full-on magical sumo could really break open the style. Only certain games would be able to pull it off, but imagine something like E. Honda in MvC with his sumo techniques pushed to X-Men level superheroics.

[@SuperKidSonic]

At that point just add the Blob

[@Thomazbr]

@@SuperKidSonic Bob is lame ngl. Sure there's something to be said about big guy flipping around but I think the dude is just a boring big guy.

[@DarkMaker75]

@@Thomazbr He means the Marvel character, the Blob, not Bob from Tekken.

[@Thomazbr]

@@DarkMaker75 Oh you're absolutely right my bad. I guess I was just in a fighting game mood at the time.

[@premmy1020]

If I had to come up with a reason Fighting games don’t push the envelope of Sumo to “extremes” I’d say I think Sumo is already kind of an extreme outlier of a martial art, Hyper Specialized not just to technique, but body and lifestyle. Every devout practitioner of a style can seem extreme, but few Karateka are as much of a cartoon Karateman as Ryu or Akira. Whereas to become a Sumo is to become Sumoman, body mind and soul.

[@dudunikolaishvili8096]

Ironically Baki's recent arc touches on Sumo and how it fits in the modern world, also there is a foreign Sumo wrestler that's famous, Tochinoshin Tsuyoshi, who is an eastern european sumo wrestler yokuzuna

[@phantasosxgames8488]

come on...it's Baki. They will wank the japanese martial arts to extreme , to a point that is not even funny anymore.

[@dudunikolaishvili8096]

@@phantasosxgames8488 Sumo wrestlers got beaten easily and the current fight has Sukune getting bitten to shit by Jack, even if Sukune wins he ain't winning easily

[@tortoisesoup16]

There are many famous foreign sumo wrestlers. In fact there are more famous foreign sumo wrestlers than Japanese ones nowadays

[@azu1394]

@@tortoisesoup16 this is incorrect, sumo stables are only allowed one foreigner

[@azu1394]

Tochinoshin is not currently and never was a yokozuna, he was the rank under, ozeki, for a period of time and has now fallen ever lower ranked

[@far_and_near_26]

I've had this fighting game idea in the works for a while, and while I haven't fleshed out the gameplay ideas that much due to my lack of knowledge, I've been pretty into developing this character with a sumo-esque fighting style recently They're basically a heavyset goth girl who isn't really a sumo at all, but her fighting style naturally gravitates to a sumo-like style combined with darkness powers. So far her personality is pretty nuanced, as she's in a never-ending struggle to isolate herself from the roster yet is a constant magnet for people that want to harm her, so she has to defend herself so people can just leave her alone. So if I ever end up making the game a reality (which will probably never happen) I guess look forward to that lol

[@King_Rowlet]

I am so down for that, I’d love to see how you’d design her aesthetically

[@far_and_near_26]

I've been updating her design here and there. Latest design update I had for her is long black hair with highlights, a pasty face with piercings and mascera, and baggy dark clothes with a band logo. Kind of a doomer-type goth. I've been trying to think of how else I can make her design less plain, but not over-the-top

[@zeigman]

8:00 This is the answer for the lack of variations in sumo fighters. IIRC back in the 90's Honda was removed from some displays in tournaments because his face paint was considered a sacrilage to Japanese tradition...

[@TheAuthorStudios]

The best Sumo fighter i've seen in media ia Raiden Tammemon (who's an actual historical figure) in Shuumatsu no Valkyrie Basically, He is a sumo wrestler who's literally pure muscle. As in, his muscles are way too powerful for his own figure; He's so strong that he needs to hold himself back from using a lot of techinques, and still has an unbeatable record. His attitude and backstory make him sympathetic and charismatic, with him being superhumanly strong making his life meaningless, as he can't enjoy a fight without feeling like a mosnter for obliterating the opponent; and in the manga he gets to finally fight someone at his level: A literal god. SnV is great, go read it.

[@unsasakiconsombrero6948]

We need a SNV fighting game, bro.

[@emperormegaman3856]

ironically, maybe It would be possible to make a interesting Sumo by leaning more into the Sumo aspect of the character. Why did he became a rikishi? How? Who trained him? How? Where? What is his goal? How does he handles the pressure of living up to the importance of the tradition. How is he regarded in Japan in contrast to the other place he travels to in this world tournament he is taking part in? E. Honda is all about Sumo, but we paradoxically know very little about his life as a Sumo. He is not lacking a cool concept, but characterization. There is a manga about Sumo that lasted for 28 volume in Shonen Jump. There's definitely ways to tell stories about the sport / tradition.

[@FaTerokiMenra]

The answer is fighting game designers just need to read or watch Hinomaru Zumou. As someone who had no interest in the sport, it was enthralling and definitely over-the-top shonen in terms of special moves.

[@Epok17]

I would like to see a kid genius in a sumo mech suit.

[@nkyfong]

I had an idea which can appease the need for sumo to keep to Japanese tradition while also being able to spice things up a bit. Have the sumo wrestler be a humanoid rhino beetle or a stag beetle, like Kuwagamon or AtlurKabuterimon from Digimon (edit: Just discovered Stun from Bloody Roar is a thing, he's the perfect example). Beetle fighting is quite popular among children in Japan to the point that it inspired Pokemon and the ruleset is for the beetles to throw their opponent off either a log or a circular shaped platform, similar to how sumo requires the opponent to be pushed out of the dohyo (or hitting the floor which could be reflavoured as the beetle flipping its opponent onto its back like they do in nature). If we have, say, a robot that looks like a beetle with the large horn of a rhinoceros beetle and the physique of a sumo wrestler, we can mix the fighting style of sumo with the fighting style that beetles already have where they incorporate their horns to flip their opponents on their backs or throw them out of bounds. And considering that this character wouldn't even be human, that causes a lot of potential for story. This is just an idea I had as I'm creating a beetle themed race for D&D that does wrestling moves and I remembered beetle fighting. What do you guys think?

[@JAnne_Bonne]

Honestly, the fact that Japan’s rigid tradition in sumo makes Ganyru and Honda unpopular with the sumo associations they’re in _in-universe_ absolutely does not help win people over to try to make more in other games, especially when other characters who break rules in their rigid fighting styles (like Dudley) are still highly famed in and out of their associations. Makes stories related to them all the more limited.

[@StarOutlaw9]

So here's where I talk about the story particulars; to give some credit, Taka-Arashi from Virtua Fighter does have a somewhat unique story (for a sumo character) written by real life development issues; because AM2 couldn't make someone with a huge body work in VF4, Taka was cut from that game and only returned in VF5R many years later. in universe, this is explained as Taka-Having lost in the first round of the third tournament because sumo is so ill-suited to actual combat. Taka disappeared out of shame to train in seclusion, only to return for the 5th tournament after rigorous training and adapting his style. One more thing; this is hard to tell because the VF series doesn't have subtitles, but Taka is meant to be the sumo equivalent of a heel, or bad guy. It's in his dialogue but also shown by the way he ties the knot on his attire. Sumo fans will recognize that style of knot on his tsuna (ceremonial rope belt) as the Shiranui style, and are considered the more aggressive fighters. These sumos also tend to have really bad luck.

[@Carlitonsp1]

Fun Fact about that Yakuza Sumo idea, in early 2000s, former Sumo Wrestler Tadao Yasuda got into extreme debt from gambling, including borrowing from the Yakuza, and it became his comedy gimmick in professional wrestling. He was also somehow became an MMA success and IWGP champion around the time, considered by many the worst one ever.

[@AnthanKrufix]

This was made before SF6, but oh my goodness E. Honda got such a glowup in terms of character and personality. I think it 'started' to be hinted at in SF4 with several winquotes against him calling him out for using illegal sumo techniques... But it got confirmed and leaned into in SF6 when he's dealing with a bunch of other stuff as well, one of which is being called out on social media for everything he's doing wrong with his sumo.. And turns out he's one of the most wholesome likable characters you can interact with. Almost makes up for his gameplay.

[@BigaloMax]

Here is a spin that i think would be really interesting and taken from real life. There is this black dude who used to be a foot ball player but later changed careers to being an actor and also a sumo wrestler. We could have sumo guys in fighting games who are also trying to change careers in to something else or changed from there original career in to sumo . Edit: also instead of The loincloth sumo guys wear it be nice to see one wear just a kimono. Specially if they are fighting in the streets.

[@Ace95616]

I have watched a bit of sumo wrestling and the idea of fighting spirit and the spirits comes up often in the sport. I think that is an overlooked concept that could add depth to a character both mechanics wise and story wise.

[@MrCleks]

There is a manga called Hinomaru Zumo which has very diverse range of sumo characteristics that modern fighting game can really take some notes on.

[@vonVile]

Hinako is a great character. She just hasn't been in enough KOF games to develop a huge fan base. I'm hoping she returns in KOFXV as DLC.

[@MagillanicaLouM]

Yeah that's the thing about her, she's only been playable in a couple games, one of which is a non canon dream match iirc. And the thing about kof in general is anyone who isn't directly a character involved with whatever saga main plot is happening or comes from another SNK franchise with their character development already done for them, doesn't get much as far as ive seen. They just are who they are, and hopefully they're fun as is. And I think Hinako is, hell even among these examples in the video id say she's probably the most flashy moveset wise if in part due to the dissonance from her appearance and the actual techniques adding lots of charm

[@maxithalo7796]

Ganryu's redesign in tekken 7 made me look at the character in a whole new light hes not the most 3-dimensional, but now he at least looks interesting

[@azathoth7587]

This is such a cool series! As a HEMA fan, I can't wait till you get to weapon based fighting styles, though learning about new martial arts is always fun. Your bajiquan video made me interested in traditional martial arts in general so I can't wait to see more.

[@DoneRandomLee]

So the thing with sumo, from my understanding, is it is very traditional to it's faults at time. It has a very strict idea of what sumo is. A destinct code of what sumo is. In your daily life as well. Once you become a sumo wrestler you no longer are a singular person. You represent Japan's ideals. Heck the designers had to add to e Honda to make him more interesting by giving the face paint which is a big no go. And also let's not forget many fighting games are made in japan, sumo is important to Japan as a sport and a tradition. The thing is e Honda probably is the most you can get out of a interesting traditional sumo with the exaggerated head charge and slaps. That doesn't mean they can't have more inspirations. So some sumo inspirations that can use is enho the smallest sumo wrestler because yes sumo wrestling also regulates height. So make a extra small sumo just running over people and wanting to overcome what people assume of him. Takanoyama who was from the Czech republic and was famously skinny but was able to use that to his advantage in sumo. Or what I think they should do is Asashoryu. Asashoryu constantly challenged traditionalist. He would give a additional shove when they clearly about to win which is seen as like punching someone when they are down. He would do major intimidating stare downs. He had major emotion which isn't normal for the stoicism of sumo. And I think using him as inspiration you can have a unique character both story and gameplay wise. He was known for suri otoshi aka a belly to belly bodyslam where he lifts the opponent up before slamming them down. And what I would add to it is give them moves to follow up that so you can attack when the opponent is down. Maybe even in a mocking way. Because e Honda is focused on the ring out gameplay of sumo. Honda wants to get you all the way to the corner for that stressing feeling of being trapped. But what if they had one on the other sumo idea of bringing the opponent down to the ground. And the ground attacks feel rude and not right which is why I think would be perfect for this character. Plus have the henka move which is a dodge to use your opponent's momentum against them. It is super controversial and I think a counter grapple that quickly changes the position of a opponent who is being aggressive add more to this gameplay. This character is showing sumo wrestling by doing a lot of what is considered wrong to do in sumo. And make it clear that sumo people hate him. say he was basically exiled out of Japan. He is trying to prove he is the best fighter by following the beat of his own drum and other characters think he is smug and want to beat some respect into him.

[@waspennator]

Didnt Tekken have a female sumo idea that never went anywhere beyond a "If this gets enough likes on twitter, we'll maybe consider making her"?

[@bira_85]

You know... a Yakuza Sumo fighter could be great, with dirty and criminal moves and such. Better yet if he was on SF. Kinda like Balrog and Dudley we could have very different characters and fighting styles to the same art.

[@HellecticMojo]

I mean gajin criminal sumo guy is basically Wilson Fisk, aka Kingpin. Also Capcom squandered additional sumo guy potential by not bringing out Sodom. He's the only other guy in SF/FF universe that likes sumo because he's a hard-core weeb.

[@YowLife]

Here's something I've always wondered: If E. Honda is fat, how can his abs be showing?

[@BankShotter]

Fat man abs can happen. Look up Tochinsohin, he is a good example (although they're obv not as defined as Honda's)

[@izzoriousaxel8807]

Would depend on genetics, specifically how large your abs could potentially get. With a layer of fat over them, the division between them will be diffused/not sharp, and harder to see in certain lighting conditions. It's not particularly common irl. I assume they chose this design to try to counter the odd notion a lot of people seem to have that sumo wrestlers are all fat, no muscle. That kind of sentiment is especially prevalent here in the US. You do *not* get to look like a sumo wrestler without a thick muscular foundation. His appearance could also just be an artistic liberty, not sure, would have to ask the designers what their intention was. You'll see this kind of thing every so often on powerlifters, too.

[@Hektols]

There is Crushing Force, a Mugen based fighting that features Makuyama, a sumo panda who specializes in pushes and Jumbo, a sumo elephant who specializes in grapples. There was a manga about a karate girl becoming a gravure that has a girl who loves sumo but has to compete in other fighting sports using sumo technique because as a woman she can't compete in real sumo.

[@MaoriGamerDood]

Those suggestions you have would actually be cool to see. But, Oddly enough, the Grounded in Traditional roots is actually what I Like about the representation in FG's. HONDA, HINAKO, TAKA and GANRYU are Characters I really Like. I will have to respectfully disagree with the same character thing, I am the one single person who is a fan of these characters. Ganryu, Who cheated to be SUMO champion with the Help of the ZAIBATSU now is constantly trying to forget that Life by Running a Chanko business and Chasing the love of his Life ( with no success for the Ladder. ) Taka Who was Banned from SUMO after winning the Championship because he was deemed to Violent, So instead beats the crap out of everyone else. Hinako is My Favorite KOF girl for everything said here and that is just awesome to me. and HONDA, Not only is he Just the SUMO guy in the world of Fiction, But he's the SUMO guy IN his World, and he Will never stop reminding us and the other world Warriors of that. All of his Dialogue and His Journey is SUMO, That repeated simplicity is actually the best thing about him. There is One kind of Evil SUMO I know and his name is KYOZAN from the Kengan Asura Anime. He is a Violent wrestler with a Big Ego. He calls his Style TRUE SUMO, Which is just SUMO mixed with MMA. He Kicks, Punches, everything. But gets defeated because he has no conviction. He's a SUMO who Betrayed the Art of SUMO and is Scolded for de valuing other Art forms, even though he has Been Dishonoring his Own. ( his opponent who dissed him is a Pro WRESTLER ) It is as you said, You are Either in the SUMO life, Or your Not. But this is just How I feel. Like I said I love these Characters.

[@Tinyrocket]

NGL, I love your sumo ideas a lot. Especially for Hinako. Even though it is partly as a joke, it is interesting to see "Cute Anime Girl eats and eats and eats and never get fat" be used as a NEGATIVE trait for the girl.

[@cjhedrick6418]

I was about to mention Rikishiman from Kinnikuman as a standout, before I remembered his signature move was, indeed, more slapping; a series of palm-thrusts that swelled his opponent's face until it looked like a rubiks cube. Cute on its own, but still doesn't stand out against almost every other signature move in the series. Even then, I can't remember him winning against a single named character.

[@manuelmadama1636]

Wolfman/Rikishiman won against Cubeman, but if you meant more story-relevant characters, he got a win just a couple years ago (the manga has been getting new volumes since 2011). I do agree that the doesn't get to do much and almost always loses, though.

[@Impalingthorn]

I've been saying this for a bit now. Sumo Wrestler characters either get treated with the air of comedy/humor, which delegitimizes them, or they are just played straight with zero nuance. They aren't shown a ton of love outside of our very typical surface level knowledge of what a Sumo Wrestler is and does. They deserve a lot better and it's not a fucking hard thing to do because we're basically provided nothing to begin with. Give Honda a love life. Turn Ganryu into a bad boy like Paul instead of JUST Julia's simp. Do SOMETHING with these characters that isn't "I love Sumo/Chanko". You have a wrestling martial art that centers around using your weight as a weapon and throwing/shoving people. There is SO MUCH room for interpretation with that. Hell, a couple videos ago I left a comment talking about Baji Quan where I basically expressed that while most Chinese martial arts are bullshit, Baji Quan was uniquely cool because "using your body as a battering ram is the realest shit". Why has no one legitimately thought of just, you know, having an MMA character who fuses a style like Sumo with something like Baji Quan or Karate or Arnis (Hell, Arnis is even less represented in fighting games than Sumo so there's something). This concept has so much potential and they're doing NOTHING with it. Edit: Oh boy, one of the next videos is either going to be about Capoeira, an art I loathe; Pro Wrestling, something I love seeing depicted in all its bombast; or Jeet Kune Do, a martial art I blackbelt in and routinely see misunderstood or depicted inaccurately. I am sweating.

[@sledgehammersssssquad3624]

Why do you hate capoeira?

[@Impalingthorn]

​@@sledgehammersssssquad3624 Okay, so: Capoeira has its uses for when it comes to developing balance, flexibility, the likes. Personally, I think even "Bad" martial arts can be repurposed or used if not solely for the attributes they build. However, I am a pragmatist. I don't do martial arts for sport. I do them because if I wind up in a fight, I need to know I can put the other person down. I highly favor arts like Kali, Krav Maga, Sombo, etc. That said, I do have a blackbelt not only in Kali, but also JKD; Bruce Lee's art. JKD isn't perfect, but it teaches a LOT of good ideas that can be transferred to other arts. Things like parrying and striking at the same time, moving when you hit and regardless of hitting, functioning by your "center line", proper punching mechanics. Bruce took a little from everything. He "demystified" martial arts and brought the air of common sense to them; literally chucking out any ideas he thought were stupid and keeping what worked. ... So Capoeira... It was made in a time where Brazilians weren't allowed to officially conduct martial arts training so they had to do it in secrecy and mask it as a dance. Once that rulership ended, they could have discarded that aspect entirely and streamlined it in a practical way. They did not. They kept all that extra flare and showboating built into it. The art and its admirers like jerking off certain aspects such as how it "Has the strongest kick" even though the kick is ridiculous and is never something you would land in a real fight. If you want to kick brutally hard while maintaining form and not isolating yourself, just do Muay Thai or Lethwei. Capoeira is literally a martial art that emphasizes style more than common sense, and there is no room for that in a real fight. Real fights, even sport fights, are messy, unpredictable and ballistic. In a sport fight you'll be lucky to be one of the many who just gets their ass knocked out in the middle of your breakdancing, but an actual street fight? No. On the street, you run the very real threat of the other guy either: A. Having a weapon, or B. Having friends. This wouldn't be a problem if not for how a lot of Capoeira fans professing it to be a "Self Defense" art, and that in particular boils my fucking piss. If you want a long form answer to why that is, I recommend watching Super Eyepatch Wolf's video on the "Bizarre World of Fake Martial Arts", but the short form answer is that I actually have trained people in self defense and LOATHE anyone who deliberately teaches people shit that would get them killed if encouraged to do it in a real fight. That's where the stick in my ass comes from. And this isn't isolated. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is one of the best grappling arts out there and I have similar issues with it; not because it's Brazilian or because it is super sports heavy, but because people will routinely think of it as the "Go to" martial art when you would NEVER want to go grappling an asphalt in a real fight when you don't know if the other guy has a knife, because if he does, you're fucking dead. I judge a lot of martial arts this way. It's a balance between what's "Cool" and what's "Practical", and the scales always tip too far in one direction the moment someone focused on looking "Cool" claims their art is "Great for self defense".

[@SpookerDoom]

As a sumo enthusiast, here's how you fix the archetype: YOU MAKE THEM THE GRAPPLER. Sumo, as a martial art, is more dependent on lift strength than any other wrestling art because you win as much from gradual pushing then from stunning throws. VF5 got it right: Taka has a stronger throw game than Wolf! I also don't hate the direction SF5 has taken with +frames on Hondas 100slaps. It simulates the power pressure from being bullied by a super heavyweight. Making cool sumos is easy! Give em MMA gloves. Make them the giant! Gigas is more representive of Sumo style than Ganryu!

[@monstermilk6092]

I'd argue that the best way to create a "Western-friendly" Sumo character would be to make one that is also an American Football player. Playing the line in football, especially offensive line, is very much similar to sumo in a sense.

[@Hexyvexy]

A similar style I'd love to see represented is Mongolian wrestling. The outfits are cool, you get a different physique from your traditional grapplers, and there's even a cultural history of female wrestlers including Khutulun and the origins of the Zodog open shirt. You could make a real fun super based on the "3 games of men" with wrestling, horse racing and archery.

[@annimu9081]

I saw a video about the whole controversy about the Sumo association and there was a segment where a retired sumo wrestler performs on the street. I thought that guy was such a cool dude, someone like him would've made for an interesting "sumo guy" character.

[@axelwust9376]

Thing us, Sumo could've been made cool. If you ever get to watch or read Hinomaru Zumou, you could see potential behind that martial art. It is essentially a style more similar to Iaido, except you add brute force to the simplicity of the draw. Generally speaking, it feels like most developers just added them just because, and not for any reason besides that.

[@BiggestGal]

Really excited to see more of this series. I've wanted to dabble in coming up with concepts for fighting game characters just for the fun of it and the couple videos you have done have been very insightful.

[@kevingriffith6011]

I feel like Sumo runs into a similar problem that a lot of wrestling techniques run into in fighting games: I haven't seen a fighting game yet that had a grappling system that could be considered "good". Anything more complex than your basic "Do command grab, receive damage" usually boils down to either "Mash harder than your opponent" or "Play a quick game of rock-paper-scissors to see who wins the grapple", and honestly I don't know how to address this. I don't even think the sumo characters we have are so bad at embodying the fighting style: Thanks to the way negative edge works in SF2, honda can threaten a grab without ever opening up his defenses meaning that he can become this incredibly threatening fixed point on the screen that you can't move and that will laugh at you for trying. Most sumos also have big, chunky attacks that push their opponents a good distance, which can lead to ring-out scenarios in games with that mechanic. The problem is that when you have a sumo character, they're usually only #2 or #3 on the big guy slot. They've got to compete with T-Hawk, Zangief, Jak, and any number of other giants that tend to just be the bigger guy and do all the things that make sumo... leaving the sumo guy with the "I'm the sumo guy" sign and nothing else to his name.

[@seokkyunhong8812]

Real life grappling is boring to watch for most people, that's why. It's a fundamental aspect of any good fighting ability, but it has nothing going for it visually.

[@TheJake0fTrades]

About sumos fighting dirty... There actually is a trick that as far as I know isn't against the rules of Sumo but is heavily frowned upon: at the beginning of the match when the two wrestlers lunge for each other, one of them sidesteps and lets the other throw himself out of the ring. Give the Sumo character a "parry" where he sidesteps an attack and throws the enemy into the wall behind him.

[@TClaymore]

I wonder if there's room for a good Sumo character whose sumo-ness is the point of their character arc. As in, a philosophical examination in the vein of "what is sumo today?" where a rikishi goes through a crisis of confidence, and the thrust of their character is to evaluate the relevance of sumo to themselves as a modern person, and how it relates to the modern world. Granted, this runs the risk of drawing ire from the Japan Sumo Association, due to it potentially diving into uncomfortable territory. Still, that kind of examination could prove interesting, and provide a look into the core of what sumo is. Like, instead of the character being a bag of sumo tropes, they would be trying to understand sumo _energy._

[@victorgatica1963]

8:10 you just described Marvel's Kingpin basically. He's proficient in sumo and has matched Captain America in battle

[@negative1001]

I really like the Yakuza Sumo idea. The idea of this guy being so politically powerful in the Yakuza that nobody can push him down from his status also ties in to the actual fighting style of Sumo, which is dope

[@Amialythis]

I once had an idea for a mugen character called shin ehonda, he would have been able to throw salt as an attack and his hundred hand slap would have been a rapid fire projectile

[@redcoffeemug7537]

While fighting games have failed on the sumo representation front. Manga has many great depictions of sumo wrestlers. I say try Baki Dou or the fight between Shiva & raiden in record of ragnarok. Furthermore, there is one real-life example of a gaijin sumo wrestler, he is a georgian called Tochinoshin.

[@silentfox139]

Let’s combine all of them. A gaijin girl crime boss school girl who is 6 ft tall who squats so hard. She under 5 ft

[@ommexyt]

Interestingly enough, the Yakuza series does have kind of a "Sumo Yakuza". Tsuyoshi Kanda, one of the bosses of Yakuza 3, uses sumo wrestling as his fighting style. He's kind of treated as comic relief and he isn't an actual sumo wrestler (he's just a big guy who likes big girls and happens to be a direct Tojo Clan Lieutenant).

[@1000Tomatoes]

One of the more interesting aspects of Honda that isn't explored is how he isn't a Yokozuna because of his unorthodox techniques. Considering this is a sport where Hakuho, the greatest sumo wrestler of all time (like Jordan levels of dominance for a decade), got in a scandal because he pumped his fist after winning I can completely believe it. Also, yokozuna is a special rank because they can't be demoted to lower ranks, while every other rank can. For example the current yokozuna terunofuji reached the second highest rank ozeki where honda is supposedly, then after injuries that led to losses and withdrawal fell all the way down to the beginner levels where 15yos are at, then made it all the way back up again to yokozuna. So honda not being yokozuna either means he does a tournament every other month to keep his rank, or he retired at some point. Also I'm 95% sure his stable/restaurant in sf6 goes against some rule, though I don't know which. It kinda sucks that they just never explore it.

[@alanzapreservationtheythem2861]

Honestly I’ll admit I knew there probably wouldn’t be much praise offered to this traditional and strict art but I’m really impressed with you much you managed to offer in terms of information and context despite the lack of chances for sumo to really show how cool it is to most in western territories, but seeing stuff like your knowledge of the art as a whole and the ideas you present for cool new stories for a sumo to showcase was really awesome! I knew this would be a cool vid but you really knocked my socks off! I can’t wait to see what style select has in store next

[@lounatik]

What if they made a Sumo wrestler that didn't follow the idea of being big in the Sumo way? Like a super ripped man (or woman) who fights like a sumo wrestler without the traditional look? They could like make a backstory of them wanting to break tradition, globalize sumo, and revolutionize Sumo as a whole; kind of like that Sumo character from Kengan Ashura

[@sketchydude8431]

Not a fighting game, but there is Raiden from Record of Ragnarok, who's basically a mortal sumo wrestling god figure who isn't fat Granted he's super muscular and like 8-9ft tall, but still.

[@Clocktothetick]

I actually got SUPER into Sumo thanks to the manga/anime Hinomaru Sumo, it's a Shonen sport manga about the MC adventure to try and becoming a Yokozuna even though he is actually far smaller than the average Sumo Wrestler, and it got me in love with the Martial Art. It's an amazing Manga that I fully recommend if you interested in characters to explore Sumo with as with it there are character archtypes, aspirations, limits and deviations of the original Martial Art of how to split them up, and though they do mostly go to the "I love Sumo" mentality as is common with sport Manga/Anime its the added depth of them that can be seen, especially with the MC, in how his smaller frame seems to put his physical health constantly in trouble. I love the tradition even though I am a Mexican and even went to see them when I visited Japan awhile back and I do wish the archtype can be revisited and added more depth by developers, at least in their characters, as though they have many traditions and laws (For example Sumo Wrestlers are not allowed to drive) I would be down to see them have their stories expanded into other forms.

[@GameFreak64101]

Each footage you showed me was just really cool sumo footage

[@unciervoenciervado]

Ganryu is not only a megasimp. He was also banned from sumo because he liked gambling too much, so to earn a living he was working with criminals and then was hired by Kazuya. Then he turned into a megasimp in Tekken 5 and into a disgusting pervert in Tekken Tag 2.

[@lightdragoon88]

Who else came back here after Hinako got announced for KoF XV?

[@emmanuelthome9509]

You know, it may not bê that hard tô write an interesting Sumo characters, Sumo already is about culture and philosophy, it's a rich art, just show how rich it is showing why the character loves the art and want to evolve, making them simpathetic and showing their desire to grow as person and fighter

[@hughboyzilla]

This video is amazing. Please make more of these looking more martial arts !

[@texalm1]

There's one idea that I am surprised there's been little exploration about. Sumo is, as mentioned, one of the oldest martial arts in Japan, and is extremely traditional and regimented almost to a religious sense. So what if Sumo wrestlers knew how to use Qi? What if Honda knew how to manipulate Qi and even throw Hadoken, and the only reason why he doesn't use or practice it is because of his belief in the sumo regime? Or better yet, he can use Qi in a way that is generally not considered nor practiced by Ryu or other warriors? We already know that Qi usage is not restricted to Ansatsuken or even Japanese martial arts in general. This immediately gives Honda a both physical and philosophical difference to Ryu, and they can have an in depth conversation about the difference in dedication and resolve about their paths.

[@ryucross]

The Sumo Gangster sounds like the way Marvel comics has the Kingpin fight when he fights.

[@vibecheck841]

I'd like to hear his thoughts on Mono from Schwarzerblitz, because she is certainly a unique take on the sumo trope in fighting games

[@edmoore2004]

I don't know why, but when you talked about coming up with ideas for sumo characters, my head went straight to the regis from pokemon. Like, imagine a character who's a golem formed by some primal deity and filled with mystic power who happens to take the form of a sumo wrestler.

[@Ramsey276one]

Hinako Introducing everyone to Sumo AND THE AEROSPHERE XD

[@Ramsey276one]

6:05 I was suspecting that Then I remembered Grappler Baki but the guy was apparently just smug

[@pokeaust7800]

There’s a character in Rivals Of Aether that I really wish Sumo styles in fighting games pulled from more. His name is Hodan, a gorilla that lives in the mountains and loves hot springs. While he doesn’t really use Sumo techniques himself, he has a really interesting way of manipulating the world around him in a way that could mesh well with Sumo arts. He uses his own sweat as an ability to whip around from the towel around his neck, lingering on the battlefield and amplifying his special movies. It’s a really cool idea and I think I good way to mesh the fantastical nature of fighting games with the rigid focused art of Sumo wrestling, as the sweat he uses has a sort of spiritual connection in it that derives from his focus.

[@anegaute]

With the yakuza sumo, you can have a good foil who tries to take him down for vesmirching the lifestyle and cultural vastion he loves. Again, you get boring sumo man, but you can explore why he loves sumo

[@KOkami03]

Anyone here watch Kengan Ashura? I liked the Sumo character in that. His fight did have an interesting discussion regarding fighting style vs body type. Though my favorite sumo character would have to be Thor from History's Strongest Discipline Kenichi. "This is for all the chubby men of the world!"