Sumi Otoshi: A Misunderstood Takedown

[@TenguMartialArts]

I totally forgot to screenshot that community post and put it in the video. So I've pasted here into this pinned comment: "I have a video that I'm working on that involves Mifune Kyuzo as a starting point. Originally, this was going to be one of many videos about some of my martial inspirations. While that theme hasn't gone away, I quickly discovered I was writing a lot of things I'd spoken on before; the benefits of seeing martial arts as a physical culture being prime among them. I have a really difficult time convincing myself that, as obesity rates go up and crime rates go down; as we learn more and more about the horrors of CTE in professional fighters, that fitness shouldn't be the PRIMARY focus of martial training. I think the way popular culture viewed martial arts--be it in Japan or in Europe--was at its healthiest, most honest, and most realistic between 1880 and 1945 or so. While I'm not opposed to competition or training for self-defense, I find it very, very strange that so much energy is devoted to them. Knowing the data, the cultural obsession over these things is clearly disproportionate. When I say this to people, I suspect they imagine I'm arguing for martial arts to be this kind of dance or something. I consider Mifune to be a product of that era--of "martial arts as physical culture." People seem to remember him as this withered old man from the famous promotional film, but the dude was jacked in his time. When I argue that physical culture ought to be the centerpiece of martial training it isn't an argument for dysfunctional martial arts. It's the fact that truly martial encounters are rare and competitions aren't forever. People look at the Mifune film and try to "debunk" it or try to frame promotional material as deceptive for trying to look aesthetically pleasing. What I see is a man in his 70's with crisp, smooth movement almost untethered by age. Most men in their 70's today are waiting to die; or worried about that one bad fall. In the face of that, Mifune is my preferred ideal. Not training to win, but training to live. Not to outrun or delay death, but to enrich the little time we are privileged to have. But I digress. I won't be discussing any of this in that video as I feel it is already ground we've covered. Instead, I'll be looking at Mifune's technical influence on me."

[@GermanSausagesAreTheWurst]

I agree completely. Crime rates are going down, and I've gotten out of far more sticky situations by asking questions and being polite than I have by fighting. These days knowing about some logical fallacies and developing some critical thinking skills are far more likely to save your butt than any "for the streetz" combat sport or concealed weapon. If there is a situation, those things are more likely to escalate the problem than solve it.

[@QuickSh0t]

Great video. I think Sumi Otoshi is popular with Mongolian Judoka. I remember seeing something, but not where.

[@TenguMartialArts]

I think you might be thinking of Uki Otoshi! Although don’t feel too bad about it, you’re maybe the third person on this video to get those wires crossed and I’ve done it plenty of times myself. If you look up Mongolian Uki Otoshi, you should find a Fighting Films promotional video

[@JimTempleman]

Rather than taking their hand to one of their ankles, consider taking it to the floor behind and between their two feet. The theory is that ideally, a person would have a third foot with which to form a stable tripod. So, their stance is weakest in direction where that third foot would be planted, either in front or (better) behind them. And then, yes, straight down.

[@uberdonkey9721]

Exactly. The first clip with woman shows this principle

[@ZaMahx]

But how are you cutting the angle to push their hand behind them?

[@TenguMartialArts]

This would be my major criticism of this. Getting the hand all the way behind the person just adds extra movement when just getting to the heel typically does the work. While on paper getting it that far back there works, I find it gives uke too much time to swivel and kill the throw.

[@JimTempleman]

@@TenguMartialArts It doesn't have to be perfect. But driving it even a bit further back than the ankle, in that direction, should afford less resistance.

[@stargobo]

@@TenguMartialArts We do an oshi and hiki form of sumi Otoshi; ideally if someone steps to gather your back, tori redirects to the other form (or appropriate henka waza).

[@GhostCat-zc2gj]

You are right 😅, that's phony! The modern obsession with what's self defense realistic, from people who've never been in a real fight and by all accounts have no reason to ever be in a physical confrontation.

[@martialgeeks]

Every now and then I catch a sumi otoshi, it's usualy the typical tomiki double wrist control variant, very very very fascinating technique to study, it's one I could think about and play around with for hours

[@TenguMartialArts]

I’ve been working with it a bit when I can, but I’ve been focusing on it less as a throw and just seeing how I can get a person to move in reaction to it. I haven’t quite got it all put together in my head quite yet, but I think that common reaction where people whip around to catch themselves might be able to be abused.

[@lluchmartinez3586]

excelent video, I am very impressed and pleased to see it, please keep doing videos like that, it has been a pleasure to watch.

[@PetalsandGems]

Thank you for adding the source lines! 🎉 And also for breaking down one of my favorite techniques I didn't realize I didn't understand.

[@ikerobx]

The waterfall analogy is such a lightbulb moment for me!

[@hugom2418]

Oh this and uki otoshi are some of my favorite. This’ll be a fun watch. Anyway tengu. Honestly with everything going on with my lately I’ve not been able to train and thus not much time nor to be frank, desire to watch to every video of yours as I wish I could. But I promise you this. I will one day start from the beginning and watch each and every single one, and leave some thoughts of my own! Also I’m very happy to see how much your channel has grown, I remember first seeing it with only like 50 or so subs and thought “this is a goldmine waiting to be discovered”. Glad you’ve got yourself a nice community here! Now to listen to another one of your ramblings hahah

[@TenguMartialArts]

I appreciate it! At the moment, I treat it as a hobby myself-the channel that is. So genuinely enjoy when you can. It’s probably healthier that way anyhow.

[@stargobo]

At our dojo we teach sumi otoshi as the first waza for youth students. Very intuitive technique from certain setups (we teach two-hands on wrist or elbow, drive to ankle).

[@neotenylv09]

A sumi otoshi video? This will be great!!

[@sieciobywatel]

This is one of the most useful techniques you can learn. Especially a variation that I don't remember in the Japanese name of, but in English I call "shut the f up and sit down, or I swear I f you up myself" is a game changer, because it can stop a fight before it even started.

[@kanucks9]

Yeah, it is generally a counter in Judo. Confusingly, I believe they just call all hand counters sumi otoshi, for tracking match data. As you say, the kuzushi demand is very high, so it usually happens when uke messes up and off balances himself 😁

[@gengotaku]

Nice video man! I’m a judoka who started aikikai aikido in the past but had to stop and got back to it recently and got the black belt. Right after that I started learning Tomiki aikido and have thought of ways to bring it to my judo game, since the so-called “uki -waza” techniques look like the “nage no kata” in judo.

[@christophervelez1561]

Yoooooooooooooo another one!? I can’t wait to watch this!

[@TenguMartialArts]

Trying to keep that output up lol

[@JasonAsh-p4h]

Suboptimal? Nah, I can get this off of a jab. Sumi otoshi is a great technique.

[@JohnKelly-ch5im]

I think the goofy move-in Akido that you’re referring to is not Sumi oToshi. It actually looks like a joint lock or paint compliance lock not a throw and I don’t know a lot about aikido so I don’t know the right terminology. Nonetheless, I think you got this one wrong

[@OsRaunio]

Looks like something between tenshinage and sumiotoshi.

[@Dpackie]

Uke Otoshi seems more bullshit when i train it. In this video, she makes Sumi look like what we call a sag throwing technique.

[@FunkyBukkyo]

My take on this, though controversial in the Aikido world, when one is in kuzushii, one should be able be taken for a walk because they don't have a ground to properly stand on. I think too much emphasis have been taken on the economy of movement, people do forget the preliminaries for the technique to work, which some are subtle. What you see may not necessarily be what you get. I would prefer to refer to Kanō Jigorō Sensei old black and white demonstration to depict kuzushii and even nagare on a macro sense. Large slow movements, even taking the uke for a walk before the final movements. Practicing-wise, the "feeling" needs to be there first, the subtle movements, before going for "economical movements". What is missing from Aikido, which I've been in for 25 years, is that some of them jump to the final result without the proper 鍛錬 tanren (Cultivation? Is that the proper translation?).

[@FunkyBukkyo]

Side note... I think I do enjoy these discussions. Reminds me of a respectful Aikido message board from 20+ years ago.

[@kuromaruonii-san]

I was actually able to reconstruct sumi otoshi, and use it on a non-compliant sparring partner. It's exotic, it's hard to apply, but it does work. also, it's pronounced [soo-mee oh-toh-she]

[@TenguMartialArts]

It’s works alright. I have had several Japanese instructors over the years. Some certainly do pronounce it with every syllable, but others pronounce it with a soft し. Just like any other language, there is a degree of dialect and personal preference at place there.

[@kuromaruonii-san]

@@TenguMartialArts perhaps it's a microphone issue, because it sounds like you're saying it as [otosh] every time 😅

[@nappyheaded]

I've been to national and international Aikido competitions and sumi otoshi is a common technique. Btw do you know the counters to sumi otoshi in judo and aikido?

[@AljosaPLampe]

would love to see a simillar breakdown for uki otoshi

[@martialgeeks]

If any "aiki" technique is kind of a "bad" osoto gari it's ura otoshi, not sumi otoshi

[@kristianOLS]

No analysis of the Mongolian sumi otoshi? The fighting films trailer is up on KZbin. I feel like a lot of tomiki comp footage are throws that are just drop seoi in the end (one of the ones you showed being an example). I’ll have to try your sumi otoshi on some whitebelts this week. I learned the sidakov single and it uses the split squat that is shown for this

[@TenguMartialArts]

I think you’re thinking of Mongolian Uki Otoshi?

[@kristianOLS]

@@TenguMartialArts ah, youre right

[@TenguMartialArts]

@@kristianOLSNo worries, it’s an honesty mistake. I think I called Uki Otoshi “Uki Waza” in this video at least once . Uki Otoshi is a much stranger beast, though, now with all the variations. While I’d accept that Mongolian Uki Otoshi *is* an Uki Otoshi, there is also the “Azerbaijani Uki Otoshi” which skirts the line a little more for me. I think even the Judo people themselves are little fuzzy on this issue. I know I’ve heard more and more IJF announcers just calling this or that “a Te Waza” because what a given throw is might not be super clear.

[@uberdonkey9721]

Nice video. Often people can't see the balance and movement of a technique so say it's rubbish. Possibly the difficulty is people train a few years, don't really get it, but then start a school and teach to their students.

[@Carbonator5000]

I was just doing this technique! What I was wondering if this only really works if someone is rounding the corner to re-attack. This technique seems to add the element of surprise? Also, doesn’t every technique have to take the Uke’s balance via kazushi(sp?)? Great video! As always, gets me thinking. 🤞❤🥋 Edit: I should also note, atemi is your friend with sumi otoshi, from the face to the arm. Also, I have heard, opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one and everyone else thinks everyone else’s stinks. 😝🙃

[@TenguMartialArts]

Every throw definitely *should* have kuzushi, yeah, but a surprising amount of Aikido people don’t seem to understand that or care. I’ve been to a few dojos here where it’s just kind of moving arms around, but no actually control. If they were doubling down on the aesthetics type stuff, I’d be fine with it, but they tend to act as if it’s a martially “correct” way to approach it. This is usually shown to be kind of silly when someone finally realizes they can just stand in place lol And, yeah, striking with this one honestly pairs better than with most in my opinion. It kind of goes back to how non-committed you can be and still have it be a genuine attempt. A lot of throws have your arms or legs sort of “tangled up” in the partner, whereas here you usually have one or more limbs free to do whatever you want (strike) at most times during execution.

[@Carbonator5000]

@@TenguMartialArts I have also heard that Aikido can be simplified to position, balance, and then technique. True for all martial arts? I don’t know. ✌️

[@TenguMartialArts]

@@Carbonator5000I think everyone has their own theories. I also tend to think a lot of them are talking sort of about the same thing. Probably a heresy, but I think “Aiki,” for example, is just an expression of Judo’s “minimum energy, maximum outcome” philosophy. A lot of people try to stick a lot of these ideas in a bottle and market them as unique, but I’ve read a lot of dry, boring theoretical doctrine in my time. Very few people are offering stuff that I’d consider to be truly new. Most of it is just repackaged or reframed. Not that that is bad, in some ways it’s evidence that we are all on the right track. I think the key is just finding an approach that you understand. If that’s Judo’s structure or position, balance, technique, or whatever else doesn’t really matter so long as it resonates with you.

[@feirabbitt]

Have you seen the yoshikan version .

[@TenguMartialArts]

Yup, I'm Nidan in Yoshinkan and Aikikai.

[@maxjek2374]

Looks like Aikido.

[@domenicobarzotto892]

A bit off topic, but I don't know where else and how else to ask. Could anyone tell me the name of the throw you see in a lot of japanese martial arts in which you kneel down and put one of your arms in between a persons legs, while the other holds on to an arm (or lapel?) and then you lift the arm that is in between the legs and bring the other down (and maybe stand up?) throwing the person over you? If no one can figure out what I am talking about, it at least counts as an interaction to help the channel I guess hahaha.

[@Buri8128]

Kata guruma or Te guruma?

[@joatanpereira4272]

kata guruma would be the name in judo, but other styles have it too

[@domenicobarzotto892]

@@joatanpereira4272 it seems to be ! Thank you

[@domenicobarzotto892]

@Buri8128 it seems to be kata guruma, But I just learned the technique my teacher likes to spam is te guruma. It's always fun. Thanks!

[@torrinmaag5331]

I found this video very interesting and I'm inspired to learn sumi otoshi. However, I feel like it wasn't structured in a way to make learning easy. If you continue on instructional content, I think you need to think more about how to teach over the internet. This feels like listening in on a first draft, not a final product Edit: I hope this didn't come across as harsh or disrespectful!

[@dirtygeazer9266]

Do all the video types yo

[@dirtygeazer9266]

Around here a little earlier 17:29 could you let us know some martial arts knowledge on western tradition martial arts because not to entertain bull shit but the extreme movement for the aikido throw vid seems like just a set up for example like in wrestling you'd circle left to get their far leg to square up and face you, you'd take advantage of the step along with how ever else you need to set up the shot ... Ps I ripped my toenail off BJJ at 2 days ago 😢 😂I'm just tokeing so this might not come across clearly but something else I've looked into was Bruce lee nothing crazy just some southpaw basic boxing ironically getting educated on him has kinda taught me for UFC 4 and 5 game I'd say the idea of combos might help for a fight

[@TenguMartialArts]

I think it might be worthwhile doing a video on big movement and when it’s worth it for sure.