Let's Talk About Tiberius

[@SupergeekMike]

A few things that have come up in the comments that I want to mention: 1. Apparently Orion's roles were often in question in the later half of his run. I have no memory of this but I've heard it too often in these comments to doubt it; it must have been something I missed. 2. The section about the vest was meant to explain the same mentality that led to him wearing a flamethrower at the table - my point wasn't that anybody who wears a costume piece to play is being problematic (I’ve done this myself, so that would be hypocritical ¯\_(ツ)_/¯). The vest was value neutral; the flamethrower was more of an issue for me. Apologies that this wasn't clear. 3. Just to be clear, this video isn't meant to be a takedown of Orion, but instead to offer context for new viewers who may not have all of the information. Let's please continue to be respectful to all involved.

[@ididthisonpulpous6526]

You can find some compilations of the "unusual" rolls here on KZbin. I just remember Matt doing an "What did you roll?" second takes on Orion's stuff as the show went on. I think this is also a point to stress about gaming in general. You mention Orion's "winning" attitude and I have found running games over the (many) years that that kind of player will absolutely fudge rolls and other borderline stuff to get some limelight. It is a kind of play that you might discuss on their own.

[@SupergeekMike]

@@ididthisonpulpous6526 I think it will end up being something I address in a future Critical Role Demystified video, once I notice it and see it in action, and see how Matt handles it in the moment.

[@foulwin9719]

In the entirety of this video I don't believe I heard you say anything positive about Orion. It's fine to make a video based on drama to get viewers but don't pretend this was not a Orion takedown video

[@BrentDnD]

@@ididthisonpulpous6526 Yes. One of the problems with his rolls were that he was pre-rolling. And he kept pre-rolling in between his turns until he got a good roll and he then saved that roll to use when it became his turn.

[@MagashiSaizen]

@@foulwin9719 is there anything positive to say tho...?

[@skaphanatic5657]

I was 100% on board with this conversation until about the 25 minute mark when you imply that Fireball is not the perfect solution to every problem.

[@SupergeekMike]

Haha that’s fair. Always cast fireball.

[@JessFromMead]

@@SupergeekMike ONLY FIREBALL! JUST FIREBALL!

[@toribiogubert7729]

Did you hear the word of our Lord and Savior Hypnotic Pattern??? XD

[@franzfanz]

@@toribiogubert7729 What's your point, person within fireball range?

[@toribiogubert7729]

@@franzfanz just a joke, but Hypnotic Pattern has the potential to shut down encounters and doesn't directly harm allies in range of the spell. But it is just a random YT comment XD

[@bplup6419]

If you get Travis and Sam upset, you screwed up big time.

[@SupergeekMike]

For real, tho

[@Stef_T-G]

This!!!!

[@joshkaid]

Travis is literally one of the most chill people I've ever seen in anything. How do you piss someone like that off? Like, it'd be impressive if it wasn't so dickish.

[@4Moth2Mellow0]

you didnt suck the right one more like

[@felipecouto1102]

​@@4Moth2Mellow0 Trying to be emo, not working...

[@spennypayne]

“His role was not critical”. The pun was fully needed.

[@SupergeekMike]

Thank you!

[@damascus9876]

I’ve never seen critical role but it’s EXTREMELY TELLING that this whole comment section contains detailed anecdotes on everyone’s least favorite Orion moments…and…they’re all different! That’s a pretty horrifying level of main character syndrome and lack of self awareness.

[@MrCompassionate01]

That's just the kinda guy he is/was. Not a super nasty guy or anything but very self absorbed and lacking social grace. A classic "problem player" and pain in the arse for any GM.

[@ellap73]

My absolute least favourite Orion moment was when Vex was giving a grand speech and Orien interrupted to let everyone know that Tiberius was getting an erection. Travis is always so chill so in that moment you can just see how much that bothered him when he just deadpan said “what?” Literally imagine having the audacity to sexualise Laura’s character like that in such an inappropriate moment, completely out of the blue?

[@Seven50ml]

@@MrCompassionate01 well said

[@BigKlingy]

My least favourite moment is one I can't see mentioned, and it comes from something very obscure. "Critical Trolls for Extra Life", a charity One-Shot, which isn't on any of their official channels and you need to look up a fan upload if you want to see it now. This special has some hilarious moments, like donations suggesting the plot of the story and later, giving one player a Deck of Many Things, and turning one entire combat round into a musical. But the problem moment (and "problem" is an understatement), comes at in the last few minutes. Marisha reveals that the character she played was actually the old woman Tiberius killed in the main campaign. The rest of the cast find this hilarious and Orion seems to as well, but if you listen closely to the cross-talk, you'll hear him call it a "c-nty move". Multiple times. Orion basically REPEATEDLY CALLED MARISHA A C-WORD IN A LIVE BROADCAST. I was iffy on the Orion hate before this, even through his worst moments, as I really liked Tiberius conceptually as a character and because the immense hate for a real person these commenters barely knew made me uncomfortable (much like the Marisha hate later), but this was the last straw that made me agree the hate was deserved.

[@KaNgUrUhBR]

I started watching CR a little before Marisha got to turn into a Dragon, so pretty late. I then decided to go to the first episode and after the first "who's this guy?" Reaction and "damn that's a pretty cool voice!" I started to cringe... He was pretty abrasive and it made me hella uncomfortable watching, so after about 3 or 4 episodes I just gave up on watching from the start. Now looking at the comment section I'm very glad I did, if I couldn't take the beginning, I can't imagine the things they mention.

[@bmalloy0]

To me, one of the most telling moments about how problematic he could be was when they were in the dungeon beneath Vasselheim and Vex shot an arrow at a hole in the ceiling. Without waiting to hear the result of the roll, Orion said Tiberus cast telekinesis (or something similar I don't recall exactly) to knock the arrow in, and Laura fully broke character and said to him "Come on, let me have this one thing."

[@JoshGreenSEO]

This is the moment that I think broke the camels back. It certainly made me feel upset for Laura too.

[@HATEPR00F]

That shit was painful. It couldn't have been more clear that the DM had crafted a challenge specifically for the ONE ARCHER at the table and he just couldn't stop himself from wanting to be the main character.

[@phantomswagger9363]

@@HATEPR00F The worst part is that Laura/Vex nailed the (incredibly complex) shot, and he interrupted Matt describing the success to do the telekinesis.

[@viper2785]

@@phantomswagger9363 A THIRTY-FIVE, she rolled. I think literally everyone at the table was like "What, really? Come on bro."

[@nosiree7104]

I also recall that the extra force he applied, Matt described it fucking it up in some way, like they couldn't reactivate it or fully disarm it, something like that. Essentially he took an epic success and fucked it up slightly because of hubris

[@LightSage89]

I'm glad that you mentioned that Percy started to shine when Tiberius left because the two major problems that I had with Tiberius involved Orion stepping on Taliesin's toes. The first was when Percy tried to build an Archimedes death ray and failed due to some bad rolls, and then Tiberius went on his mirror shopping spree obviously with the idea to create the death ray that Percy failed to make. Taliesin had a fun idea, and Tiberius tried to steal that idea. The second thing is that Tiberius tried very hard to bypass the entire Briarwood arc, which was obviously going to be Percy's story, by writing to his father and getting the Draconian army to go take care of Whitestone and the Briarwoods instead of the party. It took me until my rewatch recently to realize that Tiberius' father telling Tiberius "No. That request is poppycock" was literally Matt telling Orion not to take Percy's story arc away from him.

[@SupergeekMike]

Oof wow yes. I always thought of that particular letter attempt as not as bad as the others in that episode, because it made sense given his backstory and the seriousness of the issue. But you’re absolutely right, it’s potentially the most damaging to the group’s fun because it not only completely disrupts the tension of the story Matt is trying to generate, but also really takes agency away from Percy.

[@SupergeekMike]

Wow I just remembered that Orion’s plan to defeat K’varn ALSO involved using the freed mind flayers as an army, and letting them attack the beholder instead of Vox Machina. Wow, he really tried multiple times to get an army to fight his battles for him. I’ve had players like that, it reflects a lot of flawed assumptions about how they view the game and the game world… I’ll have to dig into that in a future video.

[@Logan_Baron]

I admit I never even realized that bit about calling in the Draconian army was to get over Percy's story arc immediately, but it makes sense looking back. The the thing I did catch before he tried to do that was to make the Briarwoods story Tiberius' story. Which he did with pretty much everything. But shortly after the first battle with them after the feast, they were discussing the Briarwoods and he had Tiberius say "I hate them most of all" because they had cast that mind spell on him. So Percy doesn't hate them worst of all, it's Tiberius because he had to find some way to make it about his character's story. Because if there is a book or movie about a main character, then it can't be telling someone else's story.

[@SupergeekMike]

@@Logan_Baron A very, very good point.

[@pazz]

Orion's got obvious "main character syndrome", while the rest definitely play it like an ensemble cast, the way a party should be. Kudos to Matt for still tying in Draconia's and Tiberius's fates in the Chroma Conclave arc. Even if it was to effectively sever all ties between the world & Orion's creations within it.

[@sofiaibarra6807]

When he overshadowed Laura’s 30 and took away her moment was one of his worst moments for me because you could be see how upset Laura felt

[@SupergeekMike]

Yeah that’s a moment that I remembered after I filmed the video, and it sucks so hard.

[@disneyforthewin]

What episode? I forget at the moment the context

[@coranbaker6401]

@@disneyforthewin It was during the Kraghammer arc. I can't remember the exact context, but Vex had to make a really tough shot, and was real excited after she rolled a 30. But before Matt could describe whether it succeeded or failed, Tiberius used his telekinesis to guide the arrow in.

[@disneyforthewin]

@@coranbaker6401 yeah, no self awareness.....sux

[@SupergeekMike]

I believe it was actually episode 16, “Enter Vasselheim” - they were clearing out a temple so they could leave the dangerous relic there, and she had to fire an arrow into a hole in a shifting ceiling as the doors closed in front of her, she got a high enough roll that she would’ve made the shot, and he shot at the arrow to “give it a boost.” I don’t remember all of the other details but when I get to that episode, I’ll definitely have more to say.

[@travisallen8248]

First indication to me Orion was metagaming was when Matt described the mindflayer in the camp without saying what it was (seemingly indicating that the group had never come across a creature like this before). Orion was on his phone for a bit (obviously looking it up) and told the group it was a mindflayer in an off-handed way as if his character knew what mindflayers were. Matt flashed him a peeved look because he knew Orion had just looked up what it was to seem knowledgeable. Orion then wants to do some kind of check to see what he knows about them and rolls poorly, so Matt says something along the lines of, “you basically just know it’s called a mindflayer” then moves on to Marisha who he had obviously intended to have the information in her character’s past. It was an interesting interaction and very telling of what was to come. Orion would’ve been very frustrating to deal with as a DM.

[@mystic-malevolence]

A similar moment occurred when Matt first described Kvarn as a beholder. Tiberius suddenly knew a lot about beholders.

[@MoogieSRO]

@@mystic-malevolence Don't forget him randomly deciding to research Liches for absolutely no reason once the vampire arc started, out of a book that he didn't even own. Matt had to ask him, where is he researching this from? He's not carrying around an entire library...

[@rault114]

@@MoogieSRO That was so bizarre! They were camping in a cave, and he suddenly pulls a book out of nowhere

[@gaberobison680]

It does seem frankly more likely that an arcane scholar would know about mindflagers than a sheltered druid

[@rault114]

@@gaberobison680 Marisha rolled really high for her check, so Keyleth had some knowledge of them that was only partially useful. Orion rolled terribly, so Tiberius didn't have any useful knowledge at all. However, none of that stopped Orion from acting as if Tiberius knew everything about them.

[@AnxietyArchfeyPwincess]

The fandom’s mentality is “we don’t talk about Orion”, mostly due to the cast not publicly explaining and asking fans to drop it. However, with The Legend of Vox Machina show a lot of new fans are stumbling into on the controversy, so vids like these are necessary for new fans to not retread the controversy.

[@smithsfist888]

I feel this comment very much. Like, I researched a little bit, why Orion left the show, and I remember the now private video of him explaining it a bit, but most videos on the topic are speculations. Mike does a good job, by stating some of the things, us, the viewers could notice, but in the end the cast never made an official statement and I think it's best to just "not talk about orion". (Also because it's their private life, and we shouldn't put our noses where they don't belong)

[@KatBee1742]

I’m a new Critter and I got this recommendation (to read up about Orion/Tiberius) and this video is immensely helpful for exactly this reason.

[@squee7997]

But it was my wedding day

[@crossedroses4827]

Can confirm, watched the Vox Machina show first fell in love with the whole critical role cast and literally just stumbled across this video. They’re right to believe something like that might happen.

[@sadrak-px8wq]

I personally also think it was the right decision in the long run for Orion to leave, the group has been much mor harmonious since then. But also, I don't think it's right to act as if Tiberius never existed, like the CR Fanclub group on Facebook does. That tbh also bothered me a little in The Legend of Vox Machina, though I realize it was a necessary change for the sake of the show. Just a shame we'll fall short of the funeral scene, which I found very touching, in the 2nd season. PS: Thanks for the Encanto-reference, I've been thinking the same 😄

[@TheRedHorseman1208]

#1 Tiberius moment for me is when he literally teleported away and came back later with a brand new Bag of Holding that his character just went and bought. There was no RP and it has obvious from everyone's expressions that he did not clear it with Matt. Good times

[@swguygardner]

If I remember correctly, he did this between sessions? Like, he was like "I put this in the bag of holding" and Matt was like "You have a bag of holding?" and he explained that Tiberius teleported back home and bought a bag of holding. No conversation from the DM, no question of cost or availability, he just wanted it so he got it. That annoyed me.

[@knowitall82]

Except A) he did talk to Matt about it and B) if it was an issue why didn't they work it out? Orion isn't the DM. Matt is. That's on him. This fucking idea that, "Oh we saw their reactions so we know exactly what heppened" is bullcrap. You don't really know anything do you? You pre-judged a person based solely on an assumption.

[@swguygardner]

@@knowitall82 Dude, I just watched the clip, Matt is completely taken aback by Orien's assertion and is like "ok fine, sure". There's no "reading into things" it's on the screen.

[@knowitall82]

@@swguygardner So you must have asked Matt about it? Is that what he said? Or did you just assume you knew his thoughts by what you saw on screen? I've definitely seen that same "look" from Matt many times during and post Orion's involvement, but I never had the audacity to speak to his meaning. Are you sure you want to speak for him?

[@swguygardner]

@@knowitall82 he asked where Orien got the bag of holding. Orien informed him of his extra-session dealings. Then Matt gave a beleaguered acceptance. Matt didn't ask Fjord where his falchion came from, as if he was surprised he had it. Travis never had to explain it to Matt, as if for the first time. And Matt never had to give his seal of approval. He left the show like 7 years ago dude, pretending he wasn't that bad won't bring him back.

[@supergirlihateu]

I may have forgotten some things, but I think Orion was the only player Matt “you can certainly try” Mercer had to stone-faced say “no” to multiple times. Matt is an impressive DM in that he lets his players try whatever crazy or silly things they want, but they still have to make the rolls. He had to straight-up tell Orion “No” multiple times because what he had asked for was fully impossible.

[@planet403]

Orion: Can I roll for it? Matt: Sure. Orion: rolls Matt: You fail and it costs you 500 gold in materials.

[@emerje0]

Impossible or would have broken the game in a way that would have been no fun for anyone playing. For me the final nail was when he want to call in the Draconian army to help fight off the Chroma Conclave (I believe, it's been like 6 years since the episode). Matt and Orion both seemed like they were getting a little worked up RPing why that was a bad idea. Of course Matt would get the final point across when the CC destroyed Draconia.

[@JonathanMandrake]

I can recall exactly one time he had to say "no" to something a player tried to do in a sense, which is the infamous goldfish incident, but that was Marishas brainfart and not some ill intent😂

[@piranhaplantX]

@@emerje0 nah, he didn't call them on the Conclave as they weren't in the picture yet. He was trying to call them in for the Briarwood arc, and basically tried to take control of Percy's story arc. Which is why people hated him attempting it so much. By time the Chroma Conclave came in, he had already left the group and got turned into an NPC.

[@ElswaresProps]

@@planet403 Which Orion likely then didn't mark down as he would go on a multi thousand gold shopping spree immediately after, and then ANOTHER shopping spree looking to buy the city's entire inventory of mirrors the very next session...

[@jacoboblanco1555]

I always forget how uncomfortable the sessions feel while Orion was there, and how everything feels so much lighter when he’s gone.

[@SupergeekMike]

It’s like night and day

[@donkeyteethbites]

I’ve been rewatching c1 and it’s worse than I remember. His obviously bs rolls, the way he absolutely sucks the fun out of the room when his turn comes up, consistently trying to do things that were flat out impossible or just completely stupid (trying to intimidate a group of mindflayers lol), a seemingly never ending supply of sorcerer points, using spells against teammates stupidly, and maybe funniest of all the completely stupid uses of telekinesis in ways that made no sense. Matt was way too forgiving imo.

[@aly6957]

I just skip his episodes, to be honest, but that's not ideal because there was a ton of great stuff in those episodes. It's really just too hard to deal with him after seeing the rest of the group work so well for almost 100 episodes on their own. @@donkeyteethbites

[@giankjojo]

​@@donkeyteethbites​@donkeyteethbites I knew it was doomed when Delilah casted Feeble Mind on him and Tiberius is "reduced to base instincts", completely neutralizing him from the action Orion decides that Tiberius "base instincts" with 1 INT is to estrategically retreat for the remainder of the encounter, even though Matt gave him a lot of endearing RP material with "you remember a strong need to protect your friends", it woukd have been so nice for Orion to just make Low INT Tiberius do the stupid by either having him throw himself, stupidly, at Sylas or making an, stupid and rather useless-bothersome attempt to remain at Vax's side so he can "protect him", nope, Tiberius can't cast so he should prioritize his own safety, it was so goddamn lame and made it clear to me just how bad it was. Meanwhile Travis/Grog doing the stupid often being some of the best parts of his PC, like this man will make Grog waste his actions attacking what is basically an enemy very impervious to his attacks Travis being complete aware of this becauae GROG DOESN'T KNOW THIS, it is just chef kiss.

[@karlbannsonr]

There are also a LOT of times where Orion would say “I do X” so Matt narrates what happens, and then Orion says “oh then I don’t do that”! He constantly retconned his own actions as if he was reading a make your own adventure book, and was just flipping back every time he made a mistake. Frustrating.

[@nosiree7104]

This is honestly what probably pissed me off the most in the gameplay personally. I swear he did it almost every turn

[@Sprtschk]

Laura and Marisha did the same though, and continued to do so after he left... also Matt was much more forgiving with things like that at the beginning, and only started changing his attitude I think somewhere during the Briarwood arc.

[@karlbannsonr]

@@Sprtschk they did early in Campaign 1 to be sure, but Tiberius’ frequency was frustrating. Any time anything tipped against his desired outcome he wanted a retcon. Just my perspective/opinion.

[@elbruces]

​@@Sprtschk They did it a few times. He did it all the time. Huge difference. There's no one thing that led to him being kicked. For any one thing he did, you can find an example of another player who did something the same or similar. The difference is that they only occasionally made those kinds of table mistakes, whereas he did them all the time every time. The number of "straws that broke the camel's back" he dropped were so frequent that you couldn't even see the camel under the giant straw pile he spewed.

[@shanedsouza189]

@@elbruces i think sometimes it's okay to "retcon" certain actions if *your character* is aware that the effect would not be what you intend. For example, certain spell wordings where you realise there's a verbal/somatic component, but you didn't want to outwardly cast a spell. Or, changing hex's disadvantaged stat if you knew you mixed up ability checks and saving throws.

[@gothmissstress]

The other moment that made me be like ??? was when Orion said "if i die, none of you will be able to survive", when the characters were strategizing their attack on K'Varn. Main character syndrome right there

[@samofsparta5056]

He was very arrogant. Ngl I didn’t watch most of his episodes cause i got a bad vibe from him

[@firstnamelastname7298]

Thats so BS, a player who says that and makes it part of their character for character development would be so good, a random who has main character syndrome corrects themself and betters himself but its not the character whos talking its the player himself. its eugh

[@qazwsx014jsbd8]

​​​​@@firstnamelastname7298 that makes sense actually. a character who has to learn that the world doesn't revolve around them and that there will be things they can't win on their own sounds pretty fun. Like an arrogant character who slowly becomes humbled through their adventures and learn to trust the rest of the party rather than thinking themselves so cool that they border omnipotence. Tiberius wasn't that character though, that was pure orion speaking when he says they couldn't survive without him

[@vortex389]

To be fair, he is the only reason they got out of there. Remember? The teleportation?

[@giankjojo]

​@qazwsx014jsbd8 the inflammatory behaviour would have been fine if it wasn't constant and there was actual development at aome point, imagine having to tolerate that for 40 extra chapters 🫨

[@Lord_necromancer]

I rolled my eyes a lot when Tiberius was there, but what broke it for me to where I said they absolutely have to get rid of this guy is when he demanded they stopped and taking 8-hour rest while they were chasing the Rakshasa through the sewer. "I will NOT take ANOTHER STEP until I get a full night's rest!" Really? And the demon you're chasing is just gonna hang out and wait? That's some videogame bullshit right there.

[@Lord_necromancer]

@@bensdreamatorium8315 yeah lol it's so frustrating. I would have just said "fine. Stay here, coward." And my character would have pursued without him. I always try to do what my character would do, but not like in a way that makes me an a******. I've only had to do one a******-ish thing my entire time playing D&D - session one one of the other players poisoned an entire town by putting poison in the ale at the taphouse. I hit him with an inflict wounds and did double his maximum HP in one attack, killing him instantly. Yeah, kind of an a****** thing to do, but I literally could not think of a reason why my character would not have done it. He was not acting like a fellow pc, he was acting like a villain.

[@bensdreamatorium8315]

@@Lord_necromancer It’s so infuriating. Even if I had managed to control myself, I still couldn’t help saying something like, “Your spells will be mostly useless against this thing anyway.” Since rakshasas are basically immune to any magic that is sixth level or lower, and I’m pretty sure they were Level 11 during the Trial of the Take episodes. Then Orion (being the hypocrite that he is) would say, “Tiberius wouldn’t know about the rakshasa’s magic immunity!” And I would retort with, “Oh, like he didn’t know about K’Varn’s lair actions?”

[@Lord_necromancer]

@@bensdreamatorium8315 don't even get me STARTED on the K'varn fight 🙄 he literally sat back, did nothing, and forced the rest of the party to fight a boss without him. That's worth getting kicked from my table alone.

[@bensdreamatorium8315]

@@Lord_necromancer Do you ever wonder if…in another timeline, their fallout would be earlier and more violent? Like when Orion continues packing up his dice after that session ends, Sam or Travis or even Marisha fully loses it and slams his face into the table. Orion says, “What the fuck did you do that for?!” And then whoever pushed him says, “You were being immature, so I though a broken nose would bring you back to your goddamn senses.” Things escalate from there, a fight breaks out in the studio, and the next week Orion doesn’t come, so Matt has no choice but to write Tiberius off in a messier way than what actually ended up happening.

[@orangutantapioca1530]

@@bensdreamatorium8315 You seem to have some anger issues and a fixation of physical violence. Maybe talk to someone about that? Killing someone for ruining a DND game is wildly out of proportion and breaking someone’s nose in response to them being pissy is as well. Real life is not a game of God of War. You can’t just assault everyone near you. Get help.

[@omfgitsfat]

What I remember is that even though there was drama around Orion leaving and possibly hurt feelings, when they finally got to Draconia, the players did a good job of treating his character with respect. There is an argument that because the entire city was destroyed and Tiberus was killed off screen that it was Matt's final "fuck you" to Orion but that's all irrelevant when his death is treated with so much weight by the cast. I thought that was very classy.

[@-Liska]

iirc Orions take on it at the time was that the players were informed about the death beforehand and - all of them being very good actors - put on a show of crocodile tears. So it seems like there was still bad blood, from his side at the very least. There's no use speculating on their feelings about Orion himself, but watching it I did get the same impression as you. That they were trying to honour a character they spent so much time with, and the connections their own characters had to Tiberius.

[@-Liska]

Honestly, considering the other options on the table (Mercer "playing" Tiberius for a last encounter without Orions input / leaving Tiberius fate unknown and undiscussed in a way that would seem disrespectful & unnatural when he is an important friend to VM) this seemed like the most sensible way to close that chapter in this messy situation.

[@omfgitsfat]

@@-Liska yeah, if you know nothing about the behind the scenes drama then it just seems like an emotional sendoff of a good friend. Honestly I think that's what the players were going for to keep the bad blood to a minimum.

[@MollymaukT]

I don't think it was a "fuck you" Orion was starting his Draconian Knights thing and to stop fans from discussing which Draconia was canon etc. Matt just decided to delete his.

[@spectralumbra1568]

@@-Liska If I remember correctly, I think Matt actually asked Orion for permission to kill off Tiberius for that scene. Maybe Orion assumed from that conversation that everyone else in the cast knew ahead of time and said something on it, but as far as I remember that part wasn't something that any of the players knew about beforehand. Of course they also could have pretty easily assumed ahead of finding out for sure, given the circumstances around the character's death.

[@annerumain7711]

Honestly considering his antics I think referring to him as a "guest star" in written media following his departure is probably the politest way they could have handled that.

[@SupergeekMike]

It was a real no-win situation, yeah.

[@Gyarodos]

no, the best version is to be honest and refer to him as a "previous member". Like, if someone of the current show leaves after years, are they also called a "guest star"? This is just not appropriate

[@thundereagle97]

@@Gyarodos Orion's actions weren't appropriate. The cast being amicable about the situation is more than he deserved. They could have aired the dirty laundry, and talked about all the shit he pulled

[@patrick.s3356]

Indeed, referring to him as a guest star is an honourable decision on critroles part. Orion clearly had problems but critroles effort to still respect everyone as much as possible is admirable.

[@bryymiller2475]

@@Gyarodos Something obviously happened that was bad enough for this to be applicable. I give CR a lot of side-eye, but not concerning this.

[@flotsim9385]

One small thing a lot of people overlook but I consider classic Orion "Main Character Syndrome" is during the Trial of the Take: Vex and Vax say multiple times that this is the first time they have been separated ever and they both are anxious to be together again. Look at the chat when Vox Machina all meet up again after their trials and see how many people are hyped up for the twins' reunion. Liam looks very excited for the moment they all come together, but right as Matt finishes describing it, Orion declares that he runs over to Vex specifically and gives her a hug (keep in mind, Vex and Tiberius did not have a particularly strong relationship, to the point that Laura looks genuinely surprised). Look at Liam's face when that happens and also his sigh when, after he finally hugs Vex, Orion has to interject and turn focus back to Tiberius.

[@maxinesenior596]

I never watched C1 but that is fucking disgusting

[@eggmcmuffin6067]

@@maxinesenior596 yeah. I’d still say C1 is worth checking out, but seeing how uncomfortable or mad Tiberius/Orion made the other players made the early episodes extremely hard to watch.

[@jbanks9491]

Not to mention the sexual comments towards Vex..... "Ive got half a chub"

[@maxinesenior596]

@@jbanks9491 🤮

[@maxinesenior596]

@@eggmcmuffin6067 oh, I essentially know the whole plot from watching highlights. I don't need to subject myself anymore to Orion

[@jabisdumb]

I saw a moment a while ago, after Orion wasn’t there, where someone points out or says something about a magical item that Scanlan has, or had, and Sam says “the one Orion took from me?” Not Tiberius. Orion.

[@Daltygaming2]

Oof yeah I’ve played with someone like that.

[@Blackestrose]

for those who wish to see what item it was and the mention itself. kzbin.info/www/bejne/naKXkqlvaZ5gabs

[@midshipman8654]

tbf, the cast sometimes refers to each other by their real names, so idk if this one comment is something to dig into.

[@SomethingWellesian]

I have to admit, Sam sometimes rubs me the wrong way, but while I was rewatching the early episodes I realised just how important he is to the dynamic of the group. Especially (I think it was) in episode 27, while Tiberius is on his shopping expedition, and everyone at the table is looking more and more bored and frustrated, Sam is busily trying to keep them motivated and laughing. Like, he acts flamboyant and obnoxious (though I feel like he’s toned that down over the course of the show), but he always puts the group and the game first.

[@midshipman8654]

@@SomethingWellesian I agree that sam is a vary conscious player when it comes to reading the table and meta situation. Very much being aware of character knowledge vs player knowledge, when things are going are going off the path, etc. And when he does push the envelope he usually does it very intentionally for the service of the game/entertainment rather than necessarily for him to “win”. Also, in campaign 1 I think his flamboyancy is mostly in service to his character more than anything else. Which is very apparent after Scanlan meets with his daughter.

[@bessh2501]

Another instance I never see people mention is that Orion straight up yelled at Taliesin at one point… I think it was when they were discussing the plan to take down K’varn the Beholder. Percy makes a suggestion, and Tiberius basically tries to shout it down. That was the moment that did it for me. I get that RP can get intense sometimes, but there are DOZENS of ways to convey that your character is annoyed or angry that don’t involve you raising your voice. I could never imagine shouting at a friend over D&D, IMO it’s pretty inexcusable behavior.

[@SupergeekMike]

The cast has other examples of it working (and a couple others where it didn’t) but I think the Percy/Tiberius example is more emblematic of his general dismissiveness of other peoples’ ideas, and the idea that he… well, honestly, was just extremely bad at communicating his ideas. Some of this was justified (and enabled) by his character, but it goes beyond that as well.

[@skylark7921]

Yeah, even during Bowlgate in campaign 2, their voices start to creep a little higher towards the end as they get into the acting of the moment, but at first Marisha has to clarify that Beau is yelling because Marisha herself wasn’t

[@hyenaedits3460]

Damn, how did I miss that? I must have gotten interrupted or else tuned out. In my defense, that whole preceding conversation confused my tiny brain.

[@aliciaflood2908]

This was the moment that made me realize exactly why he left the show. Especially as Talisen was visibly upset after being screamed at and withdrew for a good bit and didn’t contribute to the planning

[@SignificantOwl]

I haven't watched this part of CR yet, as I've only recently begun from the very beginning. But I can say, at least, as someone who has roleplayed around a table with friends for something like 14 years, there was exactly one time I raised my voice while RPing, and I still think about it and regret it to this day. There are just better ways to convey that sort of thing than actual angry-sounding shouting. It's supposed to be fun. And I did apologize, and we're all good. But it's certainly a memory that keeps me from repeating it again. It's just a terrible solution.

[@ColonelMustache]

When watching the animated show, I briefly had the thought that the team doesn't have the Message earrings they utilized so heavily in the original campaign. The real explanation is probably "it's simpler and better for dramatic purposes that the team can't communicate at long distances." But the explanation my brain went to is "Of course they don't have the Message earrings - the guy who made them doesn't exist anymore!"

[@burr_ell]

I noticed that myself, and I keep wondering if they're ever going to introduce them properly in later seasons, since TLOVM nerfs the party a bit to make them less renowned, and it would be kind of weird if they also had these powerful uniquely enchanted magical items. If they do ever introduce them, I imagine they'll have Gilmore and/or Allura be the ones to create them instead, since both of them become more prominent and grow closer to VM during the Chroma Conclave arc.

[@burr_ell]

@Federico renghi It's interesting to see how they're working around things like that and adapting parts of the early campaign. In a way, it's kind of sad that Tiberius can be so easily adapted out-the blazing bowstring seems to be a magical item Vex simply acquired at some point (since no attention is really drawn to it), and I imagine someone else will enchant the Earrings of Whisper if they get used at all. I dunno, I guess I feel like it kind of speaks to how even though Tiberius did some good things for the party, the greatest impact he had on their character arcs was his death...and it wasn't even the most impactful death.

[@courier6960]

In truth I think it was just done both for simplification and to fit the setting better, everyone knew during the original game that it was just a lazy stand-in for earpieces, which is fine in an what was at the time a play for convenience in an informal DND game among friends. However when you are making a multi-million dollar TV show people tend to be a bit more critical of those types of things, so I think it was just scrapped for that reason and to improve the writing.

[@CommentAndFavorite]

@@burr_ell I was more curious about the flying carpet.. they should have had that by this point in TLOVM, and it was such a part of their problem solving & banter

[@burr_ell]

​@@CommentAndFavorite Yes, but TLOVM isn't a 1:1 adaptation of C1. The reason they were able to obtain the flying carpet in the first place was because they had a good enough relationship with Allura to be invited into her tower, but in the cartoon, they meet her in episode 1 and they have a tense relationship. They also didn't have the flying carpet in the Briarwood arc because its enchantment was damaged beyond repair in a previous episode, and since TLOVM spent most of season 1 adapting the Briarwood arc, it's sort of a moot point. I don't know if he's ever said it out loud, but I got the sense that part of the reason Matt had the carpet irreparably damaged was because of how much of a (relative) game-breaker it was at the time. TLOVM has the party starting out at a lower level with less experience than they are by the same point in the streamed campaign (TLOVM cuts out the glabrezu encounter and the Dread Emperor in addition to the Underdark and Slayer's Take arcs), so part of keeping things believably challenging for them was taking away some of their fancier toys.

[@MegaPokefan97]

Personally, after his departure, everyone else seemed to be having a lot more fun

[@jimmy_the_squid9456]

Literally the very next episode after his departure the whole mood lifted and the entire group was more relaxed

[@Kreence]

@@jimmy_the_squid9456 which episode?

[@jimmy_the_squid9456]

@@Kreence episode 28 of campaign 1

[@johnsonjunior547]

What's crazy is I've only ever seen 2 episodes of the show. I can't even remember the characters or players names so I didn't remember who tiberius or Orion was. And I read some comments about stuff he's done and I was like "they're probably talking about that dwarf guy who yelled half the time". Looked it up and was right. I could tell he was a bad player from the get go. Pretty sad.

[@jamiekelley4076]

You could also see it when the Vox Machina was split up for the Slayer's Take trials. The team that didn't have Orion seemed to be having so much more fun than the one that was running with Orion

[@mando8469]

I would understand if they asked him to step away as his behavior was "crossing the line" but you have to remember, the played together for like 5 years prior to the show, and when he left, he was GONE.... The entire cast didn't stay friends with him, which suggests something far more serious may have happened behind the scenes which facilitated his rapid exist from the show

[@danielmcgillis270]

That was kind of my thought at well. Especially with the "Half Chub" Comment. There was more to it than a simple poorly timed, out-of-character, off-color joke. As it is true Sam has said and done things up to this point including on the stream that could easily be considered worse. The reaction from the group kind of says it all. It was more than just a cringe moment for a bad joke, people were taking it personally.

[@TheKnight212]

He’s stolen money from charity streams he did and confirmed he sent abusive messages to his ex. He also admitted he was on drugs and alcohol. He did have cancer and was a rough time but all of this stuff adds up to him being not a good person at all and that must have been impacting the group. It was 100% not just the game stuff but personal stuff too. He was apparently close with Mariansha and they were good friends but yeah the completely cut off from him shows he had definitely crossed not just gaming lines but personal lines with the group and they didn’t want to be around him. It’s probs why they don’t talk about him at all because it’s not just a hurtful experience in gaming but personally there’s probs some trauma and pain there as they realise someone they had been friends with for years was such a scumbag.

[@michaelcolon4162]

We all have had friends we probably should have stopped being friends with a lot sooner. Its not that easy especially if its a very long friendship. I know I have some friends that if I met them today I probably would not become friends with them, but they are just grandfathered in at this point.

[@sarmbaker3945]

@@TheKnight212 he did a KZbin video with what looked like a therapist some time (over a year i think) after he left the show. It looked like the make amends part of AA or NA that would seem to confirm a drug or alcohol abuse issue. Ive not seen it come up in my suggestions since as have almost all CR related videos have multiple times. He admitted to having great friends and ruining it.

[@4203105]

Are you sure it was that long? I thought it was a year or two. Also if you aren't friends outside of D&D, you don't get to know that person very much. You just know a character.

[@finchee7800]

In one of the episodes with Wil Wheaton while they're hunting the Rakshasa, you can see both Wil and Liam get really suspicious of Orion's consistently high rolls... at some point you can see Liam text Matt about it, and you can even see Wil and Liam and Matt having a discussion on set during the break, presumably about Orion.

[@bryannanashi8758]

Bro how do you even know they discuss it during break ahahahahahahhahahah

[@eskija1035]

@@bryannanashi8758 what?? you know the break is taken up by videos of the lounge area, or wherever the cast is, right? there's even one point, right before he leaves, where orion can be seen having a somewhat heated discussion with matt

[@Yakoiisyaboi]

you can often see Sam looking at Orion's rolls as well. And there are quite a few times when Sam gives a look to Matt after Orion says what he rolled. It was incredibly telling.

[@anubislockward3750]

Wil looks at Liam, and Liam just goes "yeah, that's what he does"

[@kyokonightstorm5844]

I feel like this "I have to have good rolls" from Orion being in the same episode as Wil "My dice rolls are cursed and I know it" Wheaton is sort of poetic (not intentionally on CR's part, more like the universe's intent). Wil embraces that his rolls are bad and laughs it off. He and Liam are literally laughing every time he rolls because of the ridiculousness of it. I mean, a curse is the only explanation that really works, as statistics just do not agree that it should happen that often. But then there's Orion, so convinced that he has to do well to the point where it is highly suspected that he *potentially* was fudging rolls, even to fans? (It was not confirmed, as far as I know, so I remain in the "potentially" camp, though it IS sus.) That is not OK.

[@WinterFaery84]

There were a couple of incidents during the beginning of the show where he was REALLY inappropriate with Laura and Marisha. There was the episode where Tiberius got drunk, and Orion kept putting his arms around Marisha, to the point where she said very loudly "If you touch me one more time", and Matt looked ready to leave his seat and punch Orion in the face. Then there the time when Vex said something, I believe she was making a plan, and Orion stated that Tiberius had gotten a chub under the table, and Travis looked ready to unalive him for making such an inappropriate comment. He is such a toxic person, and I was SO glad when he left the show.

[@SupergeekMike]

Yeah everybody always references that Vex joke as “the moment” Travis got fed up with him (even though it’s never just one moment that leads to something like a cast member leaving a show), but honestly that Drunk Tiberius sequence is a rough watch as well. I don’t remember Matt’s face but I’ll have to look out for it next time I watch the episode.

[@Draven_Michael]

Every guy in the cast was about to go full on hockey fight with him as the target.

[@WinterFaery84]

@@SupergeekMike Matt was not happy at all. You've got to REALLY mess up to make him angry.

[@JeremyLambright]

@@WinterFaery84 “There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.” - Patrick Rothfuss

[@AuspexAO]

Ha ha, that was super gross, but let's be perfectly honest: If Marisha wanted to put Orion in his place, she totally could have without Matt's help. I get the impression that she was being very restrained and kind to him by just telling him not to touch her. That's what made that so creepy for me. It was like Orion was using drunk Tiberius as an excuse to get away with something without her being able to murder him because "he was in character"

[@justsomeguy1408]

I always got the impression that Matt and Orion were trying to play different versions of D&D. It reminds me of a forum post I read where a DM asks how they can stop their players - who have amassed tremendous wealth - from buying a bunch of Vorpal Swords. The other comments in the discussion kindly point out that the Vorpal Sword is legendary, so if the players can just buy them, especially more than one, then that's the DMs problem. Orion struck me as the type who would try to buy multiple Vorpal Swords just because he had the gold, and Matt would constantly have to remind him that they aren't just hanging on a pegboard at the local Ace Hardware. This difference in play style creates enough tension that I struggle to watch the episodes with Orion for that alone.

[@samuelstensgaard4828]

"Vorpal Swords, get your legendary weapons capable of killing gods, buy one, get the second god killer for half off!"

[@bplup6419]

I'd make it so every other commoner/bandit had one and made a campaign to figure out who is printing Vorpal Swords.

[@danielmcgillis270]

@@samuelstensgaard4828 Shop smart, Shop S-mart. YOU GOT THAT!

[@trinityconner7337]

This is killing me because there's literally an episode where Tiberius runs off with 500 gold to go buy a bag of holding in another city seemingly without informing anyone in the party (or at the table) until he's returned with it in hand. Clearly not a legendary item, but still a purchase that should be discussed. It was a bit clear that the bag of holding was something meant to be unique to Grog, at least for a while.

[@SkyWingFeather]

I feel like there’s “playing DND for the fun and the adventure” and there’s “DND is a game where it’s you vs the DM, and if you outshine the DM with wit and cunning, you win.” I’ve listened to many DND horror stories where toxic players had that mindset and mentality. I don’t know much about DND specifics or CR for that matter (this video just showed up on my recommended); but it seems like Orion was a follower of the latter mindset. To a disturbing degree.

[@redwillow311]

Small footnote to add: Orion also started lying about his rolls and other cast members had to babysit him when he used his Dice. He also copyrighted Tiberius and created his own Kickstarter which he then spent the funds on "Other" thing's without giving backers their promised rewards. Dude was an outright git and a thief.

[@johnriverdavis3497]

What's wrong with copyrighting Tiberius?

[@redwillow311]

@@johnriverdavis3497 Critical Role couldn't use Tiberius in any other Media after Orion did that unless they paid him an ungodly amount of money. He gave permission for Tiberius to be written out with a death scene but that was it. Critical Role paid a LOT of money to Orion just to have Tiberius in the comics and he wanted even more for them to continue using his character so they just dropped him.

[@johnriverdavis3497]

@@redwillow311 What's wrong with trying to get paid for a character you created?

[@visoriannull832]

​@@johnriverdavis3497 he is not doing, and will never do anything with the character. he solely copywrote it out of spite. Lets be honest, you fully believe that anything legal is moral, but at the end of the day nothing beneficial for anyone will come from orion owning Tiberius . all that will happen is that people won't explore Tiberius as a character because they don't want to deal with the man child that controls him.

[@KumaoftheForest]

How do you copyright a character from a public game, doesn’t WotC technically own all DnD stuff?

[@philosophicaljay3449]

I like the idea of a narcissistic, uptight character that has grand plans that rarely work as a character. There is potential for character growth, it is a rare personality for characters, etc. Problem is when it is played by a narcissistic, uptight player that has grand plans that he wants to work, so he can turn his character into a "main character".

[@edadankmemes]

If you want a character like that, look no further than Fabian Seacaster from Fantasy High. His character is a narcissist, but sometimes his rolls can be really bad, leading to either hilarious shenanigans or incredible character development moments. There was a period of time in the second campaign where Lou Wilson was having a streak oh low rolls, resulting in some pretty tough defeats. Those defeats were then used as fuel for Fabian’s depression and impostor syndrome arc where he struggles to live up to his dead father’s reputation.

[@tempusmars6272]

I'm currently running a character who is like that. And while the growth is slow, he's starting to become less selfish and more cooperative

[@Actorclown]

When Orion “left” the show things ran smoother & were more fun. Also both Percy & Scanlan were able to grow as characters. For Percy because a competing player left. And for Scanlan having to fill the void of the sorcerer leaving. He may have never took a certain spell that wound up being very clutch through the campaign.

[@clayxros576]

And by the end of the campaign, Matt had to change his middle name to "I hate Bards" lol

[@halodude7167]

I'm currently at episode 101, and I'm starting to want Tiberius and the guests back instead of Keyleth and Vex, those two have become so unreasonably rambly over the last 20 episodes.

[@MythrilShotgun]

@@halodude7167 I'm someone who really did not vibe with the Key+Vex romance either. I hated listening to it, but I don't think I'd want Tiberius back.

[@halodude7167]

@@MythrilShotgun That's why I also mentioned the guests, Zahra, Lyra, Kashaw, and Tova(Personal favourites) were great. Also wait, romance? I'm referring to Laura's character, we're on the same page there, right?

[@halodude7167]

@@AodinValar she gives off the accidental power gamer vibe and I'm not particularly fond of her playstyle/RP, person beef mostly

[@ginsover]

He tried(Tiberious) to make his dad send draconia's army to attack whitestone, and get mad when the DM told him: your father said no, he will not go to war and sacrifice thousands for you, you will not speed run Percy's back story nor make it the Tiberious great commander arc

[@SupergeekMike]

It’s funny, I always thought that moment wasn’t that bad (it was never gonna happen, but it made sense as something to try, I supposed), but as you and others have pointed out, it is the equivalent of trying to launch a nuke at Percy’s character arc, and that sucks way more than I had ever considered. I can only give him the tiniest sliver of a benefit of the doubt because it was the first time the show had focused on somebody’s backstory in the way that would become the norm… but it’s also a way for him to try to solve the problem on his own, as seems to be the case a lot in his later games.

[@Nightfurygaming247]

@@SupergeekMike What he could have done was ask Percy if he wanted him to try and bring in help, it's still in character as it's something he would think off.

[@Logan_Baron]

Even worse he was told no by Matt, and then tried again to replead his case to Tiberius' father. You got your answer, move on.

[@godspeedhero3671]

@@SupergeekMike Yeah, I felt it was kind of an "obnoxious young D&D player" move that was pretty childish, but at the same time, it's not that different from the strategy the team later discussed about "raising a militia in Whitestone" which was equally ridiculous.

[@SupergeekMike]

@@godspeedhero3671 I think the difference there was that they had no goals to use the militia to pull off Matt’s story instead of the party. For example, they recruit armies in two of the final arcs, but they don’t expect that army to fight the main bad guy with them - there’s another army for their army to fight. As you get to higher level play, there are times when bringing in an army makes sense, but Tiberius wanted to use a wyvern army to invade Whitestone because of (as far as they knew) two enemies. And there are many, many reasons why Matt/Tiberius’ father wouldn’t want that.

[@magnusprime962]

The big shift for me was Episode 11, when they finally fight K’Varn the Beholder. Tiberius loudly and repeatedly proclaims that he “won’t set foot in K’Varn’s lair” for little apparent reason, and kept trying to get the party to agree to his plan of luring the Beholder out. It only makes sense if Orion had read the Monster Manual and knew that Beholders had lair actions. Then while the party goes and fights K’Varn, he decides to take off and try and recruit Mind Flayers to join them. When Matt graciously doesn’t have the evil creatures who hunger for brains attack on sight, Orion gets even more huffy. Then he finally comes back to join the fight several rounds in, and Laura lands the killing blow. The rest of the table erupts in cheers, but Orion pouts and starts loudly packing up his dice. Then K’Varn comes back as a zombie beholder, and Orion manages to land the second killing blow. He starts getting snippy with the other players about it. It’s telling that their reaction for Laura’s HDYWTDT was jubilation, but their reaction to Orion’s was frustration. Then he has the gall to call them irresponsible roleplayers while packing up for real. I’m pretty sure there was a point during the episode where Marisha even said to him “What’s your problem?” because he was being so rude an uncooperative. I hadn’t really noticed his problem behaviors before that, but once I saw that episode I realized that he is exactly the kind of player that I don’t want at my table.

[@SupergeekMike]

That definitely was not his finest hour, though sadly not his worst. And I actually sympathize with where he was coming from, because in hindsight I’ve realized he didn’t understand the plan - he thought they all were on the same page as him. That’s frustrating, of course, and that’s no fun. But as you pointed out, the way he handled it was a big bummer, and spoke to larger issues regarding his attitude toward “losing,” having plans not go well, and the game overall.

[@KHfanz]

Not trying to defend him entirely here, but not fighting a boss in their lair is a sound strategy in pretty much every setting. Why fight them on their home turf where they know the terrain and all their secrets/back up/escape routes when you can lure them out?

[@benjaminparent4115]

@@KHfanz It is a sound strategy, most of the party agreed to it, their original plan was break the thing leave, and let the mind flayer deal with it. Trying to smoke out the beholder wasn't a good plan on the other hand. But ultimately the fight started immediately and the party could no longer afford to leave (might be because Matt didn't wanted them to skip that fight), and the problem is that tiberius by the second turn just decided to not participate in the fight, and now the party was down a good damage dealer with decent HP and a reaction that could help them deal with the telekinesis ray. which really put them at risk of a party wipe, especially if Percy hadn't been so cheated with his homebrew.

[@Joseph-um6wz]

If I recall correctly, that was the fight where Tiberius got reduced to animal intelligence somehow, and Matt prompted Orion with "You are back to your animal instincts, and all you know is that this monster is threatening your friends." If he had been thinking a little more about role playing or story telling, Tiberius could have waded into battle with nothing more than his claws and flame breath and maybe even died, but Orion had him run.

[@benjaminparent4115]

@@Joseph-um6wz Not this was the first Briarwood fight, we are talking about the Kvarn fight, in that fight Orion started in a position where he need to use for 2 full turn the carpet to reach the group at the top of the temple, it is unsure whether he truly needed to reach the group to participate in the fight, but basically by the second turn he decided to not join the fight and just hover above the temple out of sight from the boss. And his third turn was him trying to get illithid as reinforcement. He only joined the fight by his fourth turn after his party kindly reminded him that he could throw fireball at the kvarn while being on the carpet.

[@pauloskinner]

This video is a very polite way of saying the guy was just a dick and the cast couldn't take it anymore. Congratulations on your patience for organizing, editing and going through all of that guy's bullshit again. I certainly would not have the patience.

[@SupergeekMike]

Thank you!

[@josh___something]

It's a good way to talk about this, as opposed to the alternative of an "Expose" type video that inevitably leads to a constant stream of angry newcomers badgering a person who's years removed from the incident and likely received vitriol hundredfold of what would've been appropriate for those actions. Accompanied with the "Don't talk about him", to successfully move on from this without further conflict.

[@MrPinkok]

"We need to talk about Tiberius..." Me: "Finally an in depth analysis of Tiberius, my favourite roman emperor!" Him: "...a dragonborne sorcerer!" Me: ":|"

[@zarewin5540]

I laughed aloud at this. Hope you were able to find an in-depth analysis of your favorite roman emperor!

[@MrPinkok]

@@zarewin5540 probably if he were a dragonborne sorcerer it would be even more interesting :D glad you liked my comment!

[@thelawyerfrommars]

lmao

[@rpan1738]

How the hell is Tiberius your favorite emperor he is mid in both how evil he was and how he affected the empire.

[@elbruces]

Yeah seriously, Marcus Aurelius FTW!

[@Sethzenjion]

You forgot his other favorite catch phrase "I use my last two sorcery points to cast ____" He probably said this line at least three times in some battles.

[@visoriannull832]

@@Blobby3822 do you honestly, truly, completely believe that that's what was happening? or do you just like being contrarian?

[@SupergeekMike]

I think it’s possible he was converting slots/sorcery points, but (A) there’s no guarantee he was doing it correctly, and (B) he wasn’t communicating it to Matt. And as the culture of the table shifted toward sharing everything with Matt, he was the only one who wasn’t doing so, and that was one of many points of friction.

[@kevinrock3520]

@@SupergeekMike There was that whole thing where he "teleported to Draconia and bought a bag of holding" between sessions and Matt had no idea

[@TheVercci]

@@Blobby3822 Assuming he wasn't cheating, he crafted them incorrectly. Sorcery point / spell slot crafting take a bonus action each time. In initiative, not saying what you're spending your action and bonus action on is a big no no.

[@DParkerNunya]

@@Blobby3822 They can yes. But that means he has unlimited spell slots instead, which might be more problematic.

[@ajcarter2337]

In terms of Orion's boundary issues there is a particular moment that sticks out to me so egregiously is in I believe episode 26? When Tiberius gets drunk and Orion just continually breaches Marishas personal space to the point I'm about 99% certain she drops character to tell him off and you can just see Matt absolutely fuming behind his eyes. It is by far the most uncomfortable part of the Tiberius debacle in my opinion.

[@Mailshere]

There were rumored sexual harassment in private as well. I'm not sure whether thats completely true but his behavior does give those signs of a lack of respect.

[@ajcarter2337]

@@Mailshere I’d heard about that, not to mention his mistreatment of his own staff and moderators for his stream

[@phresh9361]

I feel like this is the reason he was asked to leave. I think this was happening well before episode 26. I noticed a lot of awkward sighs grunts and grumbles(I listen mostly in podcast even though I have seen quite a few episodes on video). I also don't think his overuse of RP and pretending to be *the* main character actually made the players mad until towards the end (When he was pushing the harassment). This was almost them just being angry with him and using this as an excuse to express this without calling him out for the real reason they were upset with him. Disclaimer: Just my opinion, I'm a newer listener, I haven't had years to discover these people etc. But honestly coming into this without any opinion on the guy, he seemed genuine in RP and in playing, I have cringed by him only when it came to the ERP aspects but I gave him the benefit of the doubt and thought it was just his humor, but obviously that wasn't the case if all of these people had decided to remove him from the show.

[@gamerman782]

@@phresh9361 I think episode 27 was the snapping point for the cast. Over an hour was spent just him going around to stores, suddenly having access to an army, tries to create something both Matt and Talesin had said was impossible to make, and Travis did barely get to do anything because Orion/Tiberius shopping to the point that he could have left the table and nothing would have changed (I think all he got to do was buying rope, a pickaxe and a short bar fight). Didn't help when he made a random dick joke as Laura was talking, something Travis was visually unhappy about (I think he was just glaring at Orion afterwards, and whenever Orion spoke, Travis immediately dropped his smile), or that he was caught several times before, and once in episode 27, where he fudged his rolls to the point that Sam had to watch him roll so that he wouldn't cheat.

[@samuelstensgaard4828]

This is very telling, because Marisha is always super cuddly with her friends, so if Orion is making her uncomfortable he must be a real creep

[@boubouking1]

Your video help me see some of me own behavior that I need to work on. Especially the poor communication and respecting player agency. I'll have a long talk with my GM and I'll ask him to help work on these. Thank you for the video

[@SupergeekMike]

I’m so glad this could help!

[@DisasterAuntie]

Proud of you for making this realization and decision. I believe in you, you're going to be a *great* person to have at this and future tables. (I see also that I'm 5 months late to reply to this, so you're probably already that great person, so well done you!)

[@lisdmon6538]

same here, i definitely will be more careful with what i say/do during games

[@theawsomeauger2063]

I understand. I’ve had said and done things in games that I cringe about and I’m pretty hesitant of playing again. But seeing this and other stories made me realize that I can do better. It’s been a year so I hope your doing great!

[@alessandromaiero9487]

All true but the scene when they found Tiberius dead body, impaled and exposed to the weather, and Percy pretended for him to have a proper burial was perfect for me. A honorable ending for the character that was the friend. I cried for Tiberius, Orion irked me a lot.

[@mvhefte]

Agreed.

[@morelkowa1]

I cried so much on this scene. I did like Tiberius as a character, he was funny, nerdy but Orion though..... He was just too much.

[@4203105]

I thought it showed how the other players really didn't care for him. Most of them couldn't even pretend that they were upset and these are professional actors.

[@bernhardlabus8511]

Tiberius was a lovely character, no doubt.

[@morelkowa1]

@@4203105 Well yeah as players. But characters did think of Tiberius as a friend they loved.

[@Peachtess]

The vest was actually more problematic then you referenced. There was a video of Orion going into the shop and seeing that vest but it was super expensive. He made a big deal about it being perfect for Tiberius and strongly hinted and or asked (I can't recall which) someone to buy it for him which made the rest of the group very uncomfortable. Lo and behold he got it like a week later from a fan and made a big deal about it. The others were very careful never to ask fans for things but Orion asked for that vest.

[@pvic6959]

wow i didnt know that. that is clear misuse of "power"

[@xxforeskin_gamerxx4395]

Wow, when I first started reading this I thought you were referring to in-game, that's just uncool on his part.

[@skaionex]

Ok this makes way more sense as opposed to "don't wear your characters clothes two or more times" which made no sense to me.

[@kapitan19969838]

Who even cares? A fan decides to buy his idol a thing Who cares?

[@CaptainArthanos]

@@kapitan19969838 you don’t see the issue with manipulating people into buying expensive gifts for you?

[@canadiankazz]

For me, I didn’t fully realise how much tension Orion brought to CR until the episode that Matt announced that Orion wouldn’t be back. The rest of the cast had a sense of relief I could sense through the screen, like they had all released a giant breath they had been holding.

[@SupergeekMike]

It was sad to see, but by the time we had gotten that far, it was ultimately the right move for everybody.

[@scottmillor]

I only noticed it when I rewatched. The scene stealing was so bad

[@dantedvalentine3400]

In what episode Matt announced that? I want to see again because a dont remember well.

[@canadiankazz]

@@dantedvalentine3400 Episode 30 "Stoke the Flames"

[@dantedvalentine3400]

@@canadiankazz Thanks!

[@thunderstruck206]

The half-chub "joke" is so far to my knowledge I've ever seen Travis Willingham look like he's about to climb the table and kill someone the way he thinks for a second and says "....a what." Fucking goosebumps it changes the entire feel of the room

[@DisasterAuntie]

YES. This. Watching through, the first time, I initially thought Travis was doing that toxic thing where "You don't talk about MY WOMAN like that" and was asserting ownership. But as I kept watching, I realized that he didn't react that way to literally anyone else. Scanlan's constant jokes -- some very arguably "worse" than what Tiberius/Orion did -- didn't phase him. Neither did any NPC's actions or words. Nor Taliesin's, when Vex and Percy got together. In fact, Travis was as thrilled about that as every fan of every show ever and you could tell he shipped it, like the rest of us did. So it clearly wasn't about someone daring to make jokes around/to/about/with HIS WOMAN, but about being a really good partner and helping support her in her desire not to be treated that way, and I adore Travis for it now. I hadn't liked or disliked Tiberius or Orion at first, but I was watching so infrequently that I didn't notice the pattern. But once he left, I wondered why, and once I got the barest hint of an explanation, I went back and rewatched the whole time Orion was there, and then I saw it. It's all over the place. He was constantly overstepping with every woman in the party, not to mention feeling fully entitled to a romance plot with an NPC, hitting on Kit Buss, on and on. Knowing people who are dying of cancer, people who are struggling with addictions, people who are neurodivergent, none of whom act like he did, means that while I can understand and sympathize with his stressors, I can't understand or excuse his abuses of the rest of the cast.

[@pardox28]

I think that joke was the straw that broke the camel's back. He creeped out Kit Buss. He violated Marisha's physical boundaries when Tiberius was drunk. In group RP his character would bug out & not participate. He made it clear he felt Tibs was entitled to a relationship w/ Allura. And by this point the cast were actively watching his rolls because they didn't trust him. He was on thin ice by the time episode 27 happened. And yeah, the entire joy of the room was sucked out like a vacuum after he said the half-chub comment.

[@4203105]

Which to my mind is a problem with Travis and not with Orion (also Travis reacted pretty much as strongly to Tib's shopping episode). It's just a general joke/expression for getting excited about something, that I've heard quite a few times before. And it wasn't even aimed at Laura or Vex, but at the plan she was laying out. So that's either a massive overreaction or there is something we don't know about.

[@thunderstruck206]

@Miles if you think THAT is a general joke for being excited about something I'd hate to see you at a family dinner. That "joke" while yes aimed at the plan and not at her is absolutely and wildly inappropriate and the entire room called it out for what it was weird and creepy

[@armstrongQB1]

@@4203105 No joke, Sam said that literal same joke episodes prior to Orion towards Ashley. He said it in C1E3. No fuss was made. That's literally where Orion got the "chub" joke from.

[@SpaceJesus2098]

The one standout for me watching orion play tiberius was the drunk tiberius moment with marisha. When orion was all over her and clinging onto her shoulder she looked genuinely uncomfortable and matt straight up looked murderous. After marisha asked multiple times for him to stop orion didn't and that was just a huge red flag for me. As someone new to dnd at the time I never put my finger on why I didn't like orion /tiberius, I recognise now that it was major main character sybdrome, but that pretty much solidified it for me. Orion was always trying to steal the best traits of all the other characters: scanlans dirty jokes, grogs drinking, vex's tightness with money and percy's inventing. It's like he realised people didn't like his character as much as others and thought copying other people's thing would make him the fan favourite. Overstepping physical boundaries with the DMs partner was a serious dick move. I don't know marisha's history but for women who've had certain experiences that'd be potentially triggering. He was willing to ignore a friend's personal boundaries for the sake of playing his character up to the audience and it really didn't sit well with me.

[@SupergeekMike]

It’s a rough scene to watch, arguably worse than some other moments in the following episode, but coming from the same place of, you know, not having enough respect for the other players.

[@caitlinringey5573]

She had to do a VERY firm "GET OFF ME" to get him to stop.

[@Cannonmaster24]

The worst part being that she revealed in her episode of between the sheets, that she had be sexually assaulted by someone in college.

[@SupergeekMike]

@@Cannonmaster24 Indeed, I can only imagine how tough it must have been for her. Even setting that aside, it’s never okay to push someone to that point by failing to read the room to the point of inciting real life anger.

[@BrianKHuff]

Ooph, what episode was this?

[@shane3696]

I remember rewatching the 1st campaign and coming to the scene where Laura essentially rolled well over a 20 to make a trick inside a trapped room. Only to have Tiberius interject himself by using mage hand to force the arrow into the notch. I was just gobsmacked like, "Dude she rolled a 25, just let it out play before stealing the moment."

[@elbruces]

@@mehakdoosaj Nat20 on an attack roll is an auto-crit. Plus the total was insane. Yeah. I remember her saying "just let me have this!" which he completely ignored.

[@blackdragoness21]

​@@elbruces I was thinking the exact same thing when that happened. That was when I started to hate Tiberius.

[@mARTYR2010]

yeah it was 35 total which is like 5 over what some would call a god tier feat. 🙄

[@bigsiskrishere]

I run D&D as a librarian at my library and had a 12 year old player with a lot of similarities to Orion. Down to playing a Dragonborn Sorcerer with a focus on min/maxing (to be clear I am not wholly against min/maxing but it should be something the whole group is on board with). The tragic part of this situation is that he was a 12 year old boy, and I understood that his crossing boundaries, trying to hog the spotlight, and inappropriate sexual comments (the group was all 11 and 12 year olds) came from a bad home situation. But ultimately, after openly discussing this with him multiple times with no change, I had to boot him. I hope he's doing well though I suspect he looks back on it bitterly. It's unfortunate to have players like this, but we have to remember that as much as D&D is touted as pseudo-therapy, it isn't actually therapy, it's a game. No one owes bad faith players their time and sometimes you have to boot players who can't play nicely.

[@cecileestelle9448]

You did a right thing by setting a boundary with this young person. It's better both for his development (to have consequences for inappropriate behaviors), and also for the safety and mental health of the other young people at the table. Thanks for doing what you do. ❤️💜

[@zoboothemafoo]

Hey I know this isn't the point of your comment, but what the hell with all these people min/maxing as a dragonborn sorcerer? There is literally no synergy between the two things, one could even say they hinder each other. Why would I want a fire breath weapon if I can just use Fire Bolt instead? Why would I care for elemental resistance if the draconic blood gives me the same thing if not immunity? Not to mention dragonborns dont even have a good bonus to charisma.

[@bojacknorseman9009]

Good for you. Incredibly tough call as someone in an educator type role, but if you’ve had the conversation and let them know what their impact is on the other individuals, then if they aren’t being respectful of that then they can’t be part of the group.

[@butasimpleidiotwizard]

Can I just say thank you for giving him a chance even though you ultimately had to kick him out, I was pretty similar as a kid and the people who made an effort to work with me instead of against me definitely helped me grow out of it, even though I was kind of bitter about being made to experience consequences at the time. Kids like that need people who understand what they're struggling with but aren't afraid to tell them when they're crossing boundaries, otherwise they end up like Orion.

[@jebbush6657]

@@zoboothemafoo I mean people min max because they're not as bad at it as you are lmfao. You seem to have looked at the +2 STR and then just wandered off to do something else. Esp pre any expanded sourcebooks, which is when CR 1 was, dragonborn was like, the best sorc class outside half elf, which is just the best for anything that needs CHA hands down. Why would I want fire breath if I can just use fire bolt instead? Cause they're for entirely different purposes, I'm very interested to see how you attack a 30ft line, up to 6 characters, with a single target firebolt. Oh, right, you can't - the Fire Breath is basically a free burning hands, which at low level with low spells, is huge. Has nothing to do with firebolt Why would I care for elemental resistance....yadda yadda, you clearly didn't read the class, because draconic bloodline gives you resistance...temporarily...for sorcery points. Dragonborn gives you that permanently, for existing. And it never upgrades to immunity. So not sure where you made that up from. Where you CAN get immunity, permanently, is by doing a dragonborn and getting a PHB/core feat, which either gives you resistance, or upgrades a resistance you have...to immunity. So you can pretty easily by level 4 be entirely immune to one type of elemental damage and use that pretty freely as a zoning tool since it won't hurt you at all. Not to mention dragonborns have +3 to stats which is big, and +1 of those is CHA, which puts them...1 behind the "ideal," half elves. Something easily made up if your'e doing point buy and use that +2 to dump even more STR. man crazy how there was all that to say about the synergy of something with no synergy...

[@stephenwehe5944]

*CAMPAIGN 1 SPOILERS* For a while now, I've been suspicious that this whole situation with Orion is the reason why none of the other players have ever chosen to play a Dragonborn in subsequent campaigns (or even one-shots for that matter, at least none that I can think of at this moment). That said, your point about the players still having their attachments to Tiberius is on display HARD in the Draconia/Vorugal arc. I breakdown in tears at the scene where they find him and the following ceremony, every time I watch it. I'd like to think I'm not the only one to do this, though.

[@SupergeekMike]

You’re not the only one, that scene is really wonderfully done.

[@Dracobyte]

That is a shame, as Dragonborns are cool!

[@Narokh]

While I found the way they handled his death and funereal very well done, I really disliked how they played him up as the martyr to bridge the gap between the ravenites and the "nobility", considering how utterly unapologetically racist Tiberius was towards the ravenites. I know it's a real thing to whitewash certain historic figures' personalities/deeds in order to preserve peace, but this never sat well with me.

[@sodasaintcommentaries4054]

@@Narokh It's implied that in his final moments, at least in Matt's version of events, Tiberius heroically gave his life to save as many of of his countrymen from Vorugal's wrath as he could, be they Ravenite or Draconian. It was honestly the best way for the cast to move on from the debacle and honor the character without creating more bad blood and honor the character of Tiberius without creating more drama with Orion. I am not a fan of whitewashing history either, as you put it, but try to understand why Matt chose to handle it this way. This was painful for the entire cast to handle. Orion was their friend, and he sadly chose to throw that friendship away with his own actions.

[@josh___something]

​​@@Narokh In the most affectionate tone, this was to serve an out of game "political" move. Its dissonance is the effect of how abruptly it's done, but it's necessary so both parties don't keep getting hurt. At the end of the day, they were friends, so better a narratively dissonant moment to signal to folks that we should move on.

[@scwh3181]

No players are perfect, but the thing that really bugged me about him wasn't the metagaming or even the cheating, it was the fact that he couldn't even be bothered to pretend to care about what any of the other players were doing. Hell, half the time, in character, Tiberius would literally just leave the scene when it was clear that he wasn't the center of attention. Even in his final appearance, played by Matt when the character teleported away to do something, purely as justification for why Matt wouldn't have to play him, and with them expecting Orion to return next week, everyone jokes that it was extremely in character for him to just abandon the party on a whim in order to do his own thing. It's particularly bad considering so many of his little errands would take absolutely forever, and everything would grind to an absolute halt while everyone waited for him to finish them, but then he would immediately be visibly bored whenever anyone else tried to do anything, no matter how brief or necessary. The video mentioned him eating on the show, but beyond that, he was constantly on his phone paying absolutely no attention unless, again, he felt like it was an opportunity for him personally to shine. Almost everything else is forgivable, I think, but ultimately a project like that is a team effort, with everyone in the group getting their regular moments, working together and playing off one another, but in the end? He just wasn't a team player. At all.

[@DungeonDragon18]

I rewatched episodes 24 and 25 when the animated show came out, and Tiberius just peaces out to run errands while the rest of the party goes to confront Percy about why he's acting so weird about the Briarwoods coming to town. It was obviously going to be a very plot-critical conversation, but since Percy was going to be the main character of that scene, Tiberius/Orion had no interest in participating. He did that kind of thing a lot, but that was the most egregious.

[@aakash2868]

I think his long and boring errands were kinda the reason Travis started the hating shopping episodes

[@trealosgaming3345]

It was you have a week and he wanted to do close to 70 things in the span of a week. Including trying to get a ring enchantment enhanced....after asking to before hand a few episodes earlier.

[@AugmentedSmurf]

I mean, the eating thing wasn't very egregious. In those early days, they all were eating all sorts of food, possibly visible on the tables in front of them. I'm not going to bat for Orion by any means, but at least that part wasn't any worse than the others. Laura would consistently get caught in a scene with food in her mouth within the first 15 or so episodes.

[@viper2785]

@@DungeonDragon18 Hahaha, right? What's the point when you don't give a fuck about your fellow party member's state of being, their player's crafted backstory, and can just metagame to fill in the rest. Ain't nobody got time fo dat poppycock. That's valuable time you can use to min/max and power game. Facetiousness aside, it got really bad towards the end and was quite jarring just how much of a disconnect there was. Total disregard for the RP and spirit of the game, between that and the "told you so / don't know why you would do that" scowling, buzzkill attitude towards anyone doing anything at all that ends up going less than optimally.

[@loadedcouchpotato6567]

One of the biggest problems I had with Tiberius/Orion was that he had to do everything the other players were doing. Percy invents something? Tiberius has to invent something. Vex has Trinket? Tiberius has to get Lockheed. Grog has a Bag of Holding? Tiberius has to go to Draconia to get a Bag of Holding. Another thing was the constant fudging of dice rolls and damage. A lot of episodes you can see other players at his table look at his dice, do the math, and either shake their heads or correct him gently. I re-watched the first campaign during the Dark Times (2020 Lockdown) and I used the time stamps in the comments to get around a lot of the Tiberius stuff until it was after he left and then just watched the rest of the campaign full through. If you wanted to rewatch C1, I would suggest doing it that way. Get the meat of the episode without the Tiberius/Orion bullshit.

[@Xyphyri]

Is there an example of Liam looking at the rolls, however subtle it may be? Or an episode where this is common? I don’t want to drudge up more complications but that’s an absurd thing I’d like to watch

[@archiestills]

I don't recall liam doing that. Not saying it didn't happen but I vividly remember during the hydra fight. Tiberious cast lightning bolt. Rolls the dice and begins counting and marisha says " those are D10s"

[@loadedcouchpotato6567]

@@Xyphyri I can certainly look. I couldn't find Liam doing it and that just may be me blending a lot of episodes together. I did some digging and you're right, it wasn't Liam. I know Tal and Marisha double checked his math and rolls several times. He does it again in Episode 21: Trial of the Take Part 4 at 1h32m50s, watch what he does with one of his d20's.

[@loadedcouchpotato6567]

@@archiestills There's one instance I can find of Sam looking at his dice and shaking his head in Episode 7: The Throne Room at 52m20s.

[@capwithoutacountry]

@@loadedcouchpotato6567 Oh, wow: he sure does. "I'm not gonna count that. Oh, I'll count THAT: nineteen!" And Sam just CAN'T.

[@pleh7019]

As an actor myself, we take weapons - even prop weapons - VERY SERIOUSLY on set. There are announcements made for a prop weapon just existing in the room. If I had ever showed up to a rehearsal or performance and my cast mate had a home made FLAME THROWER on his wrist?!?!? I would not have been performing that night and the union would have been called. Astounding behaviour imo.

[@skylark7921]

Yes!! I was thinking the same thing. When I was at a program for stunt training, one of the first things the instructors said about prop weapons was that you do not, under any circumstances, mess around with them. There are a dozen layers of precaution and safety, and you never, EVER, ignore any of those layers.

[@danielmcgillis270]

Maybe Alic Baldwin should have taken a lesson from you.

[@DisasterAuntie]

I came to say this, too. I knew he'd worn the flamethrower bracer, but until this video I hadn't realized that the thing WORKED and was LOADED at the time. That's not any less worrying than bringing a loaded gun, or a grenade, or a knife to set. What in the world was he thinking? To be honest, I'm now strongly wondering why would they let him remain in the room with that. Get your narrow behind back out to the car and leave that in the trunk, and then you can combats dangerous AF.

[@rachelclaw]

When I ran props for a show in college, we had a singular, dulled katana as the only weapon in the show. Even then, it had to be locked up until the show was ready to open, and it was *very* carefully monitored. Any time it was handed off to somebody else, you had to say out loud "weapon to [name]" "thank you weapon" and it immediately went back to me and then into its locker when it came of stage. A "working" flame thrower? Forget it. If I were the one running that set he'd have been forbidden to go on until it was put safely away.

[@christianpryor8261]

@@DellikkilleD sure, for hands. on a set, in a TTRPG that uses paper? insanely stupid and dangerous to both players and cast

[@Rumkeez]

For me the worst thing about Orion Acaba was definitely his behavior toward the women in the cast. A particularly uncomfortable episode to watch was ep 25 where Kit Buss guest stars and shows up during the fight with the Briarwoods. Tiberius immediately starts flirting with her and it's clear that she's very uncomfortable about this. It doesn't make any sense when the characters are in a life and death situation fighting the Briarwoods. You can see Laura getting angry at this as well. What an absolute shitty thing to do, to make a guest star uncomfortable like that. It didn't even feel like RP, just him coming on to her. Then, later when he is feeble minded, he mimicks licking Marisha. And then, of course the 'half-chub' comment toward Laura in a later. This dude was straight up a gross creep on camera. I've seen someone mention neurodivergence as an excuse for his behavior. And I'd just like to add, as a neurodivergent person, difficulty with social situations does NOT give you a free pass to be creepy and abusive toward other people. You don't keep getting a free pass as an adult ffs. tl; dr FUCK THIS GUY

[@trevanminnig3499]

I do not disagree, and want to make that abundantly clear, but I want to “defend” Orion a bit. What he did, was absolutely abhorrent and no one deserved to feel uncomfortable due to him. However, he was struggling with substance abuse, as well as cancer. I’ve seen someone struggle with addiction, and another person struggle with cancer, and both seemed so miserable and not themselves. I cannot imagine the hell that would’ve been his own mind at that point. Again, I AM NOT saying he should get a pass for this, however I wanted to reiterate this as to provide more of a reasoning for why he might’ve been doing it. Healthy Orion may have been just as disgusted by that behavior as everyone else, and maybe not. Regardless, it happened, it was wrong, and I don’t think it should’ve ever happened in the first place. Also, Final note, fuck cancer, and Fuck substance abuse.

[@the4given196]

@@trevanminnig3499 finally someone who understands that (mental) health and drugs arent an excuse, but can explain things.

[@ariannasilva4462]

@@trevanminnig3499 I have the unfortunate feeling it was just who he is due to Orion never coming back. If they were friends for 2 years and he was an amazing guy before Orion would eventually come back. It feels more like this was just who Orion was and it didn't hit them till his actions were broadcasted and recorded.

[@trevanminnig3499]

@@ariannasilva4462 that’s possible, but I also think that it’s possible that the break was exactly what he needed, and the rest of the group was fine with him coming back later, but he shut that down to work on himself, or them having to cut him off was so hard for them that it just ruined a truly good friendship, etc. I can see why you’d say what you did, but I also know everyone is different. I know a few people who I worked with, personally, who were into some bad substances, who I would’ve called friends, but when they got help and cleaned themselves up, they moved on to get away, to “start anew,” so to speak. I think either is equally as likely, but hey, that’s just me trying to see both potential sides of the same coin.

[@Mythicspider629]

Yeah when I heard the cubb joke about very clearly Travis and talisin were very much concerned and mad at him that just wasn’t ok man

[@WhoIsIanMcGovern]

Just watched session 27 from campaign 1, i mean that being his last session and clearly a session that he pissed off EVERYONE. Like travis straight up yelled at him to stop “shopping” for OP items and power ups and orion just ignores him and continues. Also Sam just giving him a simply “DON’T”. Sam is the most carefree of the cast and even he was done with it.

[@barneyatkinson-saul9881]

I think Travis was pretty close to smacking Orion in the face several times over the last few sessions. He was getting suuuper inappropriate with Laura.

[@mecha-kicksmetro7655]

I’m finishing up episode 26 and I’m not looking forward to the next episode. I might just skip it when things get bad. I’ve already seen the “half-chub” clip with Roy Mustang burning Lust to death superimposed over Travis. I think that’s all the context I’ll ever need.

[@duckduckgooseberry7051]

@@mecha-kicksmetro7655 I literally just left a comment about this right before scrolling down to this. IDK why that whole thing was glossed over. Made me feel super ick.

[@BoojumFed]

@@mecha-kicksmetro7655 Honestly, that comment was just one where folks around the table cringed at him. Where he *_pissed_* people off was 20 minutes into the shopping session where he' been told _several times_ that what he's looking for ain't a thing available for purchase but he ...just ...kept ...trying ...to ...negate ...Matt's ...ruling. Personally I would suggest simply skipping from the moment they start shopping until 2:40:00. That's basically as they're just about leaving and Orion comes up with something Tib's would have done on day one of the week off they were discussing (Giving a few seconds of reaction demonstrating exactly *_how_* done with Orion's powergaming everyone was), which Matt slaps down in entertainingly epic fashion. XD And I wouldn't want ANYONE to miss Talesin's translation skills soon after that anyway. ;^)

[@mecha-kicksmetro7655]

@@BoojumFed Thanks for the tip! Taliesin is one of my favorite cast members. I wouldn't want to miss one of his moments.

[@jeffreymackay4343]

I just remember Orion cheating on dice rolls, cheating on how many spell points he had left, just cheating in general. He was also very confrontational and took many things personally.

[@SupergeekMike]

Taking things personally seemed to be how he handled anything that didn’t go his way, which isn’t an awesome attitude for D&D.

[@MizuMing]

He also had a drug addiction problem, which he went into rehab for after he left the show.

[@Missmonkey88]

I also heard he was stealing money from somewhere related to the fans in some way, I don't recall the full story.

[@MizuMing]

I remember him posting a video about how he got robbed up on the main channel too. It was there for a while, before ultimately being removed for- I imagine the problem being resolved or the channel not wanting personal videos like that being there anymore.

[@EviIM0nk3y]

@@Missmonkey88 you hear rumors yet provide no facts not exactly the best way to go about this

[@antheathetiefling8581]

What made me lose respect for Orian as a player was the trial of the take episodes. His team ( Liam, Marisha, Will Weaton and Will Fridel) was on a time sensitive mission. 3 days to hunt their target and return. Once they tracked their target, they follow them into a tunnel system. They have an encounter with some..rat things ( can't quite remember) and Orian wastes all his spells on doing some tricky magic to look cool. ( dispite the others telling him to conserve his spells for their target) When the fight is over, he basically asks for an a 8 hour rest to regain his spells. The others tell him they can't, cause the target will get away and reminds him of the time limit. Orian visibly gets pissed and this bleeds into Tibs. The rest of the episode, he is snapy at them and rude.

[@PsychoMike21000]

In fairness, they were fighting a Raksha which was immune to ALL of his spells

[@antheathetiefling8581]

@@PsychoMike21000 that may be true, but he could have used his spells to help the others, tried to effect the battlefield , without engaging him. But most of all, he should have listened instead of showing off and not let his anger bleed though into the character.

[@PsychoMike21000]

@@antheathetiefling8581 Remember, he was Sorcerer so he had a limited amount of spells known, I can't think of any buff spells he ever used nor any battlefield control though that may be more likely. He definitely wasn't being team player but his actions were consistent with his character. Killing the old lady was bad, trying to weasel the item was bad (but it definitely was wasted by Scanlon and most players I've encountered don't mind trading items they don't have a use for), and his reaction to the romance attempt getting spoiled was inappropriate, but the Raksasha encounter was a non-issue in my opinion. There's even an argument that his use of his spells in the earlier encounter was more optimal as they'd be useless against the big bad and they saved the party from using more of their resources and further damage from subsequent rounds. Honestly, he was likely metagaming and knew the Rakshasa was immune to his spells so he wasn't worried about saving them. I've encountered quite a few players way worse than Orion but I understand the decision to part ways. I do think his issues are overreacted to by crit fan-boys. On scale of 1-10 with 10 the best, he was a 3 or 4, not a 1 like he's made out to be

[@KamuiT]

@@PsychoMike21000 He used Fly a lot, which may have been a lot more helpful (and not lost a certain magic item).

[@8petaledpath929]

@@KamuiT I stopped paying attention at one point. Could you remind me how exactly he lost the magic carpet?

[@AuthorJohnADouglas]

For my money, I initially liked Tiberius at first. He was stodgy and uptight, a stark contrast to the rest of the characters. It made him stand out and it helps that Orion gave him such a distinctive voice. That didn’t last long. He became a huge pain in the ass. During not one but two major battles he disappeared to try and come up with some cockeyed plan he hoped would brilliantly work. I know what he was doing. He was trying to be that player who comes up with some outside-the-box plan that miraculously works. And maybe if his plans had worked the way he wanted, it would have been glorious, but they didn’t and it was so egregious that Sam called him out on it in a moment that did not feel in character, but player to player. Compounding the meta gaming with alleged fudging his dice, and one of the worst timed dick jokes in recorded history, it was like watching a slow car crash. Orion got more abrasive and gelled less the more time went on. And you can tell what a drain his presence was at the table. After he left, the rest of the group just flowed so much better and so much easier. You could see them having fun again. Sad that he had to go but it was clear he wasn’t a good fit over time.

[@thelastholdout]

I'm pretty much in agreement on all of this. Tiberius as a character concept is great! He's silly and absentminded and pompous and yet can kick some ass in combat. He could have been the epitome of "adorkable." However, the way Orion ended up playing him was...not that. Him running off during the K'varn fight when he would have been a huge help was jaw dropping, and he continued to screw things up like that for the rest of his presence there. The kill on the old lady itself wasn't the biggest deal. It was the fact that in character, Vox Machina was in a LOT of trouble with the authorities, and the way they wiped that group after their failed battle with the Briarwoods made them look like loose cannons. That makes sense in the story. However, Orion seemed to take it completely personally, and not as an opportunity to come back from a low moment but instead like he was being personally messed with. That whole exchange in the throne room made me cringe SO incredibly hard. I think the dick joke was almost...inevitable? I think Orion knew that the friction between him and the others became unbearable, so he became more desperate to be funny and break tension and other things, which led to the dick joke. However, that was completely out of character for Tiberius. People have drawn equivalencies to Scanlan, but the fact is that Scanlan's character is a perv and was established from the start. Orion pulling that out of nowhere with a character who up till that point had not been pervy at all made it feel a lot less like an in character joke and more like sexual harassment. Either way I'm glad Orion left the show. It genuinely got a lot more fun after he left, and I feel like everyone, especially Travis, was more relaxed from that point forward.

[@AuthorJohnADouglas]

@@thelastholdout The LOOK on his face when Orion dropped that joke you knew he had bad thoughts in head. Travis is an absolute unit and I’d never want to be in his crosshairs

[@thelastholdout]

@@AuthorJohnADouglas that's what I admire about Travis. We know he was upset on behalf of Laura, but he had the restraint to not get violent, and listened to Laura's reaction and decision about what to do instead. Like, he really seems to reject a lot of the toxic masculinity you'd expect from someone as built as he is.

[@freman007]

@@thelastholdout "Toxic" masculinity? Being willing to defend one's fiancée/wife is one of the least "toxic" things a man can do. I don't expect "toxic" masculinity from big strong men. I expect toxic behavior from small weak men, like Orion.

[@thelastholdout]

@@freman007 physical violence in response to a dick joke is definitely toxic masculinity, as is the concept of defending a woman's honor when she hasn't asked for it. Beating up Orion would only be called for if Orion actually assaulted someone.

[@lakekoocanusa]

One of the things I remember, is that at one point Marisha started checking his roles. At that time, almost every role around the table was simply trusted. But at one point, Orion specifically had someone (quietly and discreetly) check his roles. After that, most roles around the table started to need to be confirmed by Matt's own eyes...

[@SupergeekMike]

Wow yeah the other players checking his rolls is something I truly don’t remember but people keep mentioning in the comments. I guess I more noticed the stuff he said/peoples faces but I’m gonna have to watch for that as I review these episodes for my channel, because I never noticed it.

[@lakekoocanusa]

@@SupergeekMike They were very discreet, but I remember at one point, seeing Marisha turn and look at the dice, then nod to Matt without a word or sound being made by either. Edit: That's not to say fudging dice is necessarily bad, but they ARE storytellers and letting the die roll tell the story is an amazing thing. One truly memorable moment was when Scanlan and his daughter first met. Matt rolled a Nat one when she went to attack him, and they just played off as she decided to forgive him. In that sense, while rolling a one extra hitpoint on level is one thing, and a dramatic Nat 1 can be greater than a nat20, doing things to FORCE a narrative via made up dice rolls is more like writing a book, than playing a game of chance.

[@Logan_Baron]

Yes, you can definitely spot the moment that Marisha and Sam had to start watching his rolls.

[@SupergeekMike]

@@Logan_Baron Wow, can’t believe I missed that. Sheesh.

[@SupergeekMike]

@@lakekoocanusa Well there’s also a world of difference between a DM fudging dice to provide a better experience for the players, and a player fudging dice because they want to win. But that’s a topic for another day.

[@caduceusdraws]

Honestly what struck me the most, especially from having watched the entirety of C2 beforehand, is how much the group's dynamic clicked together AS SOON AS Orion left. I'd known, starting C1, that it'd be different from C2, after all even with a similar cast, its still different characters and years apart. But the second, the SECOND Orion left, the episode right after... there they were. The cast, the dynamic, the friendship I'd been following for two years for 400+ hours in C2. It felt right again, and i didnt realise it was... well, because of Orion. (Disclaimer : i know he struggled with things and i dont hate him for it, i just want to share how different the dynamic was the second he left, there was no adjustment time in-game, it was right away)

[@SupergeekMike]

Agreed, you can definitely spot the difference

[@annec8127]

Agreed. It was like night and day.

[@natethegm9802]

I agree but here’s a strange circumstance… I feel the same way when Robbie joined. Like “this is now the group”. They weren’t missing anything but now Robbie has come and gone it feels like they are. I love them but Robbie works to well to let him leave

[@Mstrskeletor89]

@@natethegm9802 i do believe Robbie will be back did you hear the song he released about his time with the crew so far and his homage to Sir Bertrand Bell?

[@reverendnorse]

@@Mstrskeletor89 Oh, I missed that! Gotta find that for a listen!

[@ColtNomad]

I went back and rewatched the dreaded 27 after watching this and then came back to say this. I noticed that he tried to always hog the glory. When Sam made a dirty joke, he made one. Talisan tries to invent, he tries to invent. Marisha and Laura do different enchanting things, he tries enchanting. Liam does some rp to get his snake belt back, and he goes to try and rp with Alura. The whole party is planning to fight the Vampire threat, he calls upon an army to fight the Vampires. All the while poor Travis is sitting as patiently as he can. Its painful to watch if you pay attention to Travis because he stops being subtle about how long it's taking and how there shouldnt be one more thing. It's over an hour of shopping in a 2.5 hour episode, counting the break, intro, outro, and recap. Edit: I forgot to mention his meta gaming. He brought it up himself how he wasn't doing it that fight to basically beg for praise. "I'm not meta gaming this time!" Was his own declaration with pride. He also was told he couldn't do something and argues with Matt to do it anyway, wasting downtime and 500 gold when it didn't work out like Matt had told him. This all happened in 1 single episode of the show.

[@SupergeekMike]

It’s a really rough watch.

[@cecilia7932]

Omg right! It was so funny how Matt made him spend the money and all and then straight up told him "it doesn't work". He was so insistent on doing it even though Matt told him it wouldn't work.

[@bensdreamatorium8315]

@@SupergeekMike Hard to believe it’s ANYTHING but ironic, that the worst episode of the entire series is part of what many Critters consider to be the best arc of Campaign 1.

[@SupergeekMike]

@@bensdreamatorium8315 It's definitely unfortunate.

[@bensdreamatorium8315]

@@SupergeekMike Which means that if you want to see the events of TLOVM as they appeared on stream, you have to sit through Orion’s worst moments, or else miss at least one major plot point. In fact, while we’re on the subject, he’s faded into obscurity ever since he left the show, and even if he still does voice acting, I doubt his name has appeared in any credits.

[@spitefulloner]

The talk about the dangers of fireball was interestingly relevant as I'm just watching the early episodes, and it was a problem with the literal first combat session. A bunch of dwarves were fleeing a mine and slowest one was attacked by a goblin. Laura's character worriedly jumps into action, sniping the goblin and saving the dwarf. Matt describes how frantic the dwarf is, and how thankful he is to have been saved, and immediately Tiberius fireballs the goblins and kills multiple fleeing dwarfs, including the one who just thanked the party for saving him.

[@passenthrualaska3293]

I was someone who started watching with Campaign 2 early on, and fell hard, so once I had binged all of the content available there I was at a loss as to what to do with all of that empty time from Friday to Wednesday. I decided to watch Campaign 1, and while I did come to love it as well... if I hadn't already built a love for Campaign 2, I wouldn't have gotten more than a couple episodes in. Even in those first couple episodes his energy was so off-putting to me. Had I not known for a fact that he left the show early on I would have given up on Campaign 1 all together. After seeing how harmonious the cast was without him it was almost painful to deal with how discordant his energy was from the others. I once described it in the kindest way I could think of. That Orion was the kind of person who would loose at pool, not because he wasn't good, but because he always had to go for the trick shots, even when an easy shot was right in front of him.

[@SupergeekMike]

Oh my gosh that is a really accurate way to describe Orion. Technically he got a lot of kills, but unlike pool, your goal is to tell a cool story, not just get the most points. And sure enough, trick shots really get in the way of that.

[@NigelSmith72]

I remember when it first came on Geek & Sundry, that's exactly why I gave up after the first couple of episodes. I can't remember well enough if it was Orion specifically that drove me away, I just remember having the impression that it was seeing a pretty un-fun playstyle, so I lost interest. I was more than a little wrong, it turned out, once Orion had left (took me until 2020 to realise that, though...)

[@bigmikebeebee]

@Passenthru Alaska I had exactly the same experience as you with C2 and then C1.

[@Kris-wo4pj]

i got into CR when C1 was almost over. I think its cuz i was so use to low production dnd shows cuz i was watching barky's brigde and star wars ttrpg live games. i will say i got really annoyed with Tiberius, kiki and vax but the last two grew on me over time. i was just glad tiberius left cuz Orion metagamed way too much and i didnt notice until i started reading the dnd books and wiki in my free time. oh and the chub bs with vex and the whole nice guy thing with Allura. The comment section and the bad sound quality still gets on my nerves with c1 tho.

[@lordraven1991]

I went the other way, starting off with C1 and quickly fell out with it. Though for me it wasn't 100% Tiberius/Orion, but rather the one-two combo of Keylith and Tiberius right after each other. Keylith being her infamous breakdown after Grog was kidnapped, then Tiberius turning extremely sour after finding out what they were about to face. The last episode I watched was the one where they did kill the boss, and Tiberius basically stealing the glory from Vex over the rights of the kill. Major dick move there then tried to be cute as the episode was ending.

[@the8thsquare]

The summation of Tiberius's character in Draconia has so much grace. Sam did an amazing job eulogizing him. I skipped over much of Orion's presence, but damn if, "Here lies Tiberius Stormwind. I encourage peace," still slapped me with the feels.

[@SupergeekMike]

Oh yeah, both of those scenes is really lovely. (Although I always thought it was weird that his words were changed to be the opposite of the original quote, and then he’s just going to represent something he didn’t necessarily intend, and I wonder how often that happens, and there’s a whole Firefly episode about how statues of great men may not reflect the man themselves but also that’s not necessarily a bad thing… but that’s just my own existential journey, I do really like the scene still lol)

[@laughingmask3118]

I'm serious when I say I loved Tiberius as a fictional character, but he wasn't intended to be a clusterfuck or a party liability or some oaf. He was the self-insert avatar of a blatant asshole.

[@Vipermecha]

Then Orion went in and changed it on his channel saying he cast a spell, blah, blah, blah. It pissed me off, when even after all that has happened, Matt and the crew still gave Tiberius a good end and passing, and Orion still did that so his beloved character would not die.

[@the8thsquare]

@@SupergeekMike I think changing, " I encourage violence," to, "I encourage peace." took away the agency of Orien's character...sure, yet it really transcended and meant something to the world building. Tiberius's leaving was given not only an acknowledgement, but a true eulogy for the friendship of character and cast. And audience. That's probably less nuanced than what actually happened, but. I still think, if Tiberius had anything better to add to his story, he couldn't have done it better. At the time. We can debate if Orion was given agency, but his character was given justice.

[@burr_ell]

@@Vipermecha In fairness, it's a weird situation. What I THINK happened was that Matt and Orion talked about how they wanted to handle Tiberius and Orion gave Matt permission to kill him off...in MATT'S world, while in Orion's world that he set up for Draconian Knights, it's basically a Tiberius Lives AU. I think it was less of Orion undercutting Matt and CR and more Orion giving his blessing for Tiberius to be given a permanent sendoff from that particular setting and story so that Orion could take full control of the character and do his own thing with his IP. I think he's well within his rights to do that, as long as there's an understanding from the parties involved that this is what they're going to do (which it seems like there was). That said, it's also entirely unsurprising that the Kickstarter for Draconian Knights ended with people not getting their rewards and that the show itself was kind of unwatchable. Maybe it's just because I knew not to get invested, but even as a baby viewer watching the first 27 episodes, I was not attached to Tiberius in the slightest and never understood the people who were. I mean, everyone's got different tastes, but like...where's the appeal. Where.

[@Phoenixcaptain46]

A big part of his wanting to do things that are cool was that he wanted to steal everyone else cool things. Percy invents a weapon, so he wants to make a better one. Laura have Trinket, so he wanted his own trained pet. Liam did his Briarwoods espionage, he wanted defeat the Briarwoods arc on his own. He would say he wants to do a thing, Matt would narrate it, then he would retract it as an oh never mind. Like you mentioned, trying to trade an item when Sam wasn't there was really bad too (even if I laughed at the presentation at first glance until I realized it really wasn't in character). Sam has a vulgar character, Orion says what he did... My advice for people who want to watch Critical Role is start at episode one. Watch it at 1.25x speed, 1.5x speed for combat. Anytime it is Orion doing a thing, 2x speed or use the timestamps in the comments to skip ahead.

[@cassi6528]

I remember the first episode where Orion interrupted an interaction that Marisha was having and added literally nothing to the scene, and Marisha was like "I'm so glad Tiberius was here for that." in a snarky tone lmfao

[@hubertwebb]

I was 100% sure Orion was a problem in the episode where he kept going back and forth through teleportation circles without saying what he was doing. And then he comes back with his own bag of holding (among other items). Idk if Matt knew about the bag, but judging from his reaction, I would say no. I’m not much of a D&D player, but I know you can’t get those kind of items easily just because you have the gold to match what is said in the handbook.

[@jamiekelley4076]

I am 90% certain Matt didn't know that was what Orion was doing but didn't want to bog down the stream with it. I'm also 100% certain the only reason Orion got one was because he was mad is fantastic mending wheel was on him at all times

[@johnshulla8502]

I do remember Orion saying what he was doing, but it was very brief and as the session ended so makes perfect since that Matt wouldn’t have remembered, it still doesn’t excuse the fact that he TOLD Matt instead of ASKING though

[@ParadoxEngineer]

I'm still glad that Tibs was given a proper funeral. That scene still makes me cry, even more so knowing that leaving was really the only solution.

[@silverforkedtongue4771]

To me, the funeral was the players saying goodbye to the man who was their friend, even before the show and before the home game, they were all close for years coming up as voice actors. All of their goodbyes, especially Sam and Liam, were very pointed to Orion moreso than Tiberius

[@andrewroberts7948]

I see that episode completely differently. I felt it was very tacky to bring up his character in that way and have him killed off when they could have just left well enough alone. There was no need to find him there.

[@ParadoxEngineer]

@@andrewroberts7948 That's fair. As a DM there is just apart of me that separates character from player and wants to make the best story possible for the sake of it.

[@andrewroberts7948]

@@ParadoxEngineer I am a forever DM myself and understand that. I wouldn't change what happened to Draconia, I just would have skipped them finding him and leaving the question as to if he was dead or if he had somehow survived up to the audience interpretation.

[@elanorsybille]

@@andrewroberts7948 if I remember correctly, they only found him because Percy rolled a nat 20 on perception.

[@caketin6470]

i think Orion’s “joke” towards Laura in episode 27 should be dwelt on more. for those who don’t know, he implied that Tiberius had a semi-erection after Vex’ahlia said something clever which is an extremely disgusting, invasive and inappropriate way to react to something a female party member has said. Laura and the others looked extremely uncomfortable and you can hardly blame her, it was such a shocking thing to hear in the moment and the mood shifted immediately additionally, there was a conversation between Tiberius and Keyleth (i can’t remember which episode) where Tiberius was drunk. Orion essentially used this as an excuse to start touching and nuzzling up to Marisha herself. Marisha had to physically push him away from her a few times to get him to stop whilst protesting as Keyleth. combined with Orion/Tiberius’ attitude of entitlement towards Allura, the way he acted towards the ladies at the table was extremely concerning and perverted. always made me feel uncomfortable to watch so i can’t imagine how Laura and Marisha felt. i don’t know how people still defend that man.

[@Elydir]

Didn't Marisha and Orion hug pretty much from the start?

[@zacharywiedeman5580]

Thank you. Super weird it doesn’t start by talking about his inappropriate touching and comments. Plus his drug use doesn’t help any situation.

[@caketin6470]

@@Elydir That’s not an excuse to start touching and groping her in the name of “roleplay”. If you watch the clip, she pushes him away from her multiple times

[@elizabethv5266]

Thank you for saying this. I’m sick of watching men talk about what happened and completely gloss over OA’s absolutely disgusting treatment of women.

[@NicoleCraswellBooks]

Yeah, Mike said he can't say if Orion's issues of the "Me Too" genre had anything to do with him leaving but gut instinct from a female perspective says, based on his behavior on the stream, I would almost guarantee it. He's frequently very touchy with Marisha and just generally in her space, which is usually fine until you start to notice that it's almost entirely initiated by him. And of course the comment to Laura in episode 27 was so inappropriate. People have done whole analysis on each other player's reaction so I won't do that here, but I think the key to seeing how out of line it was is looking at Travis's reaction. Travis knows his wife really well, they'd already been married for years, and I feel like it's pretty clear given his behavior in every other episode/interview/public appearance in general that he is not a particularly jealous person and he is not a particularly angry or violent person. So I think seeing him be that mad at Orion and the way his mood directed toward Orion for the rest of the episode just spiraled downward (didn't help that it was a shopping ep that Orion made so painful) is SUPER indicative that his comment majorly crossed a line.

[@kalayabear6973]

A bit late to this, but another thing I distinctly remember Orion doing that not many people seem to mention is that he openly tried to get the fans to get things for him, including literal acting roles. I very much remember him trying to get the fandom to petition / tweet for him to be Cloud in the FF7 remake when it was first rumored, saying something along the lines of the cast underestimating the power of the fans, that they can do anything. If memory serves, someone (laura?) immediately said don't actually go do that. That always stuck with me.

[@SupergeekMike]

Oh I don’t remember that, but that’s wild

[@samuelstensgaard4828]

The cast has been VERY deliberate for the show's entire run to not use their fame to ask for free shit from fans, and Orion did it more than once.

[@ryanroberts3742]

Honestly I think we kind of missed a big thing when in the last 2 episodes Orion/Tiberius said some not so savory things to Laura/Vex and Marisha/Keilith. The reason why I put both names in is because I think Orion meant it in character but the way it came out was not and very creepy to the girls. You can visibly see Travis get real upset as well.

[@davidmurrell5143]

I always thought that was the final straw. Orion was annoying a lot of the crew by that point (and a large chunk of the audience, me included), but his comments were the breaking point I think. I always imagined that Travis had a not so quiet word with him afterwards.

[@ryanroberts3742]

@@davidmurrell5143 to be a fly on the wall 🤣🤣🤣 would of been great

[@ducttapeheart5431]

I can’t remember what episode, but I remember at the end there was a dance thing happening and you could see people moving through the background. Ashley hugged Travis and Matt, but Orion went to hug her and she very clearly stepped away and refused him. To me, that spoke volumes.

[@robosbabydoll]

@@ducttapeheart5431 I remember that

[@yenna6146]

@@ducttapeheart5431 Wow, never noticed that detail. I did see that Orion always seemed like a bit away from the rest of the cast though

[@saint-naive]

I often shy away from videos like this, whether they have "clickbait-y" titles or discuss controversy/drama within a fandom. but I think you were well-spoken and thoughtful with your handling of the topic, and I really applaud you for it. especially considering the comments section here, which has a lot of specific instances of the issues present at the table at that time, you did a great job at laying things bare and leaving the viewer to either seek specifically instances of (the issues) out or reflect on what they'd already watched and observed. really good job handling an uncomfortable/sometimes downright taboo subject in the fandom.

[@SupergeekMike]

Thank you so much!

[@Aviedya]

I will also point out that Orion was frequently cheating or engaging in other behaviour that I personally strongly dislike. In that episode 27 I think it is, Orion keeps using magic to Silence other players, not even letting (in this case Scanlan) counterspell that, because Scanlan was disagreeing with what he wanted to do and say. Just that kind of behaviour really rubs me the wrong way, in taking away other players' agencies. The cheating had a lot to do with Orion using "his last x sorcery points" in pretty much every fight, counting a total far higher than what he should have at his level. Like using "his last 3 sorcery points" in one round, then "my last 4 sorcery points" in the next. What probably annoyed me the most personally though was him not just stealing other player's thunder, as it has been pointed out, but also just flat out interrupting. Like during The Feast, Percy was doing something in the basement and everyone else was down there talking about it, having a serious conversation, and Tiberius suddenly feels the need to interrupt to talk about how he's feeding his pseudodragon little pieces of meat while he's walking towards his destination. It's just plain disrespectful and rude

[@lokithecat7225]

There is a lot of "Stealing Thunder" Comments on here... But I can't think of a single time when Orion was allowed to have his "Thunder" moment. If you're in a party where everyone is screwing you over, you'll probably be fine with screwing them over.

[@Aviedya]

@@lokithecat7225 or because all his attempts at having one have come at the expense of trying to thwart other people’s. Refusing to be a part of the major fights he was present for, undermining other people’s time to shine (trying to jam in Vex’s arrow further when she’d already rolled a 30, trying to solve Percy’s backstory with a private army, though that one may just have been an attempt to help and a lack of foresight, calling the rest of the party stupid for fighting the beholder, etc) or just generally being disruptive when other people are having character moments, such as The Feast example I already noted in my comment. No one was trying to screw him over unless he was already fucking with them.

[@lokithecat7225]

@@Aviedya I'm not sure if you missed the point I was aiming at, or kind of Made it for me... Let's say that a "Good DM" would have moments that they are intentionally trying to build, to include people... and Matt is at least "Good". Shouldn't there have been times where he was supposed to be the Center of attention? You've pointed out multiple examples of others having them, but none of his... unless he was "Stealing?" them from others. But if he isn't getting them, is it really unreasonable to try to be a part of someone else's? With the Vax Arrow example, would it really have hurt her if he "helped" and got some of the Credit? The beholder example just seems off, why shouldn't someone be "Allowed" to express that they were being stupid, attacking a Creature that they weren't (levelled) Prepared for? Is it somehow "Bad RP" for a Caster to think that attacking a creature with an Anti Magic Beam is Stupid? Is he just supposed to shut up, when the rest of the party is doing something else, or can he have a minute or two of "While they are gone I...." without everyone Screaming about it? Sure, he's probably fucked up a lot of things, but everyone does. Marisha didn't (ever) learn to play her class, and wasted more time figuring out what her spells do, or which to use, than Orion. Sam repeatedly Trolled the Party, and had INCREDIBLY self Centered moments, from "I Want to be a Drug Addict" to "I'm leaving the party in a Tantrum". Even Matt screws up, Keyfish (while Incredibly Moronic and deserving of Death) shouldn't have been Fatal by the Book. It just seems like People disliked him, and booted him instead of making any effort to "Help" him. Given the fact (which they probably all knew) that he was dealing with Addiction and Cancer, it seems... Shitty to treat their friend this way.

[@Aviedya]

@@lokithecat7225 there is so much wrong with what you just said that I don’t even know where to start, and I’m not sure why you’re trying so hard to make this point. Tiberius absolutely had big moments for himself. Finding the artefacts he’s been searching for, just generally having fun or cool moments in combat. But you also can’t expect a DM to simply hand you everything on a silver platter when you repeatedly do dumb shit like try to cast fireball in a small wooden room and not expect it to be set aflame. Yes, calling your party stupid and verbally assailing them for a fight they were absolutely levelled to fight is not good behaviour? What? Doing so while also casting Silence (a spell he shouldn’t even have RAW) and counterspelling an attempt to get rid of it so he can have a say right after doing so as well? (Edit, not have a say, be the only one who can talk so everyone else just has to listen to him without being able to counter what he says) And yes, he is supposed to shut up and wait while the rest of the party is doing something when he deliberately left to do his own thing instead of interrupting a major character moment with his own completely unrelated comment about what his character is doing at the time, thus completely getting rid of the tension and suspense that had been building because he felt it was so extremely important for everyone to know that he’s feeding his dragon beef jerky while Percy is pouring his heart out about his backstory. That is extremely rude. Yes if he was doing it while there was a lull, that would’ve been fine. But he interrupted someone mid sentence to do this. Marisha *did* learn her class, but it’s also the single most complex one in the game, with arguably the most in depth subclass, while they were still playing using pens and paper. And yes of course she “spent more time than Orion” because she was on the show way longer than him. But she also doesn’t listen to Matt talk about what happens as a result of her actions and then immediately go “ok then I don’t do that” at least once per game, wasting way more time than when someone is looking up a spell. I have my own problems with Scanlan, but I don’t think those are moments of him being selfish, and he never did it with it resulting in cheating or disrupting the rest of the game. And the last one is just completely irrelevant. Matt has stated multiple times that they don’t play everything RAW. They also allowed potions and cantrips on bonus actions, and removing the limit to fall damage is one of the most common home rules in existence. Why point that up against trying to defend a player who’s just a textbook example of bad behaviour?

[@lokithecat7225]

@@Aviedya When I asked you originally if he had moments, you said he didn't (aside from stolen ones) but now he's had lots of them? Beholder is a CR 13 by default, and (RAW Unearthed Arcana) that is a party of 4 at level 9, which they weren't even close to. Silence could easily be "House ruled" as they started "Pathfinder" and made some insane Conversions... Vax as an example could never throw 3 (returning, wtf!) daggers a round, even if you translated his "Belt" across, and ignored that he had multiple Magic Belts (Simon) and gave him multiple Feats to help. Yes, the Silence thing sounds messed up, but if he cast it, then they couldn't hear him either. It kills sound in an area, it doesn't "Shut up" someone. The Dragon feeding thing sounds rude, but not "Kick him" level.... I think Sam's done worse, like "Friends" to take Percy's Gun (which is nonsense, and should have made Percy Hate him by the book). But, that's probably a subjective thing; misusing a spell to destroy a central part of a players character and ignoring the consequences vs. temporarily interrupting someone explaining their tragic past. Marisha in most encounters took more time than Orion, who tended to figure out (and fuck up or "Cheat") his move in advance... I wasn't referring to "Over the series they spent x minutes total". Druids aren't complicated, just read up on what your Memorized Spells are, the rest don't matter, and have a few "Types" of creatures that you understand. Marisha always seemed like someone else wrote her character and picked her spells, then she'd be (on her turn) trying to figure out what they do (Gaseous Form was a mess). The point, overall, was that everyone would be "Guilty" of some textbook bad behaviour. But the person who should have had the most lenience is the one the Community is completely intolerant of. Even your own examples show a lot of Bias; Matt doesn't run things RAW, O shouldn't have Silence RAW.

[@millymills5747]

This was an excellent watch. Despite the claims of “nothing positive” being mentioned in this video from some responses I’ve read in these comments, I disagree entirely and found this video extremely informative and respectful. As a newer Critter (I became a fan during quarantine) and a female TTRPG community member (player & DM), I have had a tough time finding the details of this scenario explained objectively without having to watch clips of all the ick. I also really appreciate how you inserted your commentary into this video, too. You made extremely clear when statements being made were your opinion and were thorough in giving context for the factual info you chose to include. Thank you for taking the time to make this-I hope those in your comments who are up in arms look inward and consider why they are so bothered by this behavior being addressed and discussed.

[@Hephaestus_God]

He was also cheating a lot besides metagaming. He was fibing a ton of dice rolls. It got to he point where Marisha and Sam were on Orion duty and every time he rolled you could see both of them checking his dice. In episode 27 he rolls d10s instead of d8 and Marisha has to correct him and is there until he does it correctly. Sam is on the other side doing the math so Orion doesn't have to. This is just one example, he did it the entire season and it got worse as time went on.

[@valiantknight6364]

And him rolling beforehand. Like, "I just rolled a 19, I'm gonna do this" when he kept on just fidgeting with his dice before, clearly until he got a number he wanted

[@pioadventures]

Looking back, it seems that Sam would often purposely look away from the dice being rolled to avoid being involved with the lie.

[@Robbiemortino]

During the Rakshasa fight, I don't remember exactly which spell, but when he rolled damage, you can see him physically adjust one of the the dice to a new side while counting. You can see Will Friedle, sitting next to him get a curious look on his face as he watches it happen. Also, don't get me started on Sorcery Point accounting, lol

[@mrbroeders]

I noticed that - the other players started looking over his shoulder whenever he rolled

[@annasrensen1479]

I remember one of the first episodes where i believe that Orion says he rolled a 28 and Sam has to say, are you sure about that, or something in the lines of that. Sam has a strong eye on Orion though the entire game after that

[@ronin7997]

After discussing the magic item trade, the player dichotomy between Orion and Sam is so fascinating. Sam Riegel is one of the finest examples of an ideal D&D player: accurately plays to character/class strengths & weaknesses, rolls with good AND bad results with the dice, refuses to egregiously meta-game, constructively engages with the other players, and fully respects the DM. Orion Acaba is practically the polar opposite and the poster child of the toxic tabletop RPG player.

[@Blackbaldrik]

Sam's a player who's just there to have a great time and let the story take him wherever it goes. And nothing emphasizes that quality more than his straight up refusal in C2 to use a very powerful feature because he felt it would be detrimental to the role-playing experience by taking away too many negative outcomes. Dude's a legend.

[@brittanygilbert7843]

Sam is precious AF

[@TelsMaviston]

Sam can also be super petty and change his character to respond to other players. As an example, there were multiple little prank things that happened between Tibs and Scanlan where Tibs stopped Scanlan from doing something by using counterspell. Like there was a time Scanlan used silence on Tibs to stop him from talking, and later when Scanlan tried it again, Tibs counterspelled it. Anyway, Scanlan traded out Dispel Magic jn favor of counterspell specifically to counter Tibs usage. We all know how that turned out.

[@janiekramer2344]

@@TelsMaviston If I remember right, that Tibs/Scanlan interplay was a direct reaction to another Tiberius toxic example. I think it was proof that the players were sick and tired of his toxicity and wanting him GONE. Dude straight up sexually harassed Laura Bailey “in character as Tiberius.” She showed way more poise in reaction than I would have done (which is to leave the table permanently).

[@Elaksomfan]

Metagaming has dwindled in CR but Orion wasnt the only offender tbh. Still, he realy needed to go

[@noahthehoneyboy6294]

I don’t know why this stuck with me so much but it has. I remember during combat on an airship vax described a cool attack that the table thought was awesome and cheered and immediately afterwards on Tiberius’ next turn he cast telekinesis on some daggers and proceeds to basically say “I do the same thing as vax, but with magic and more daggers so it’s cooler and should do more damage”. It always struck me as a copycat mentality. You see it quite a few other times with Percy and scanlan too

[@kayndarr3788]

Something else you notice very early on is Orion's apparent desire to insert Tiberius into other people's roleplay moments, for no clear reason other than I guess wanting some more spotlight for himself. The most obvious early example is near the end of episode 3, when Vex and Keyleth decide to steal the magic carpet and scout the lower cavern, finding a hidden chamber and a then-unknown Mindflayer. They're in the middle of an intense scene trying to not start a fight, with Laura, Marisha and Matt all talking in character, and Orion suddenly pops in with, "I fly down and..." and is immediately shut down by Sam and Travis just saying "No" repeatedly until he shuts up again. And again, later on in that first arc, Keyleth is having her emotional moment. Marisha is fully in character and killing it, Liam starts narrating Vax trying to talk her down after an insight check to find out what's wrong - and again Orion just butts in with the standard pompous Tiberius voice, completely breaking the emotionally-charged tone of the scene. In this case it wasn't *entirely* inappropriate for Tiberius to be involved as it was technically a whole-party discussion, but everyone else could clearly see Liam and Marisha were running this scene and knew to wait for a time to speak (and the tone to convey when they did).

[@purplelikefire]

I think the seeing Percy shine once Tiberius leaves comment at the end is very true. Thanks for putting this together, its a great summary for when people ask about/mention Tiberius

[@SupergeekMike]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@lsfranchi]

I absolutely agree, and I also think that the show was all the better for it. Bringing Taliesin, and his considerable role-playing skills, to the forefront made the show even better. As much as I liked Tiberius at the beginning he started grating on my nerves by the end. I still remember watching him fudge his dice rolls, on camera no less!

[@SupergeekMike]

Yeah, that’s something else I didn’t even touch on because I didn’t remember how much was visible vs. speculation, but I remember a couple of moments where he… well, l can charitably say that he took advantage of the fact that Matt spent a lot of campaign 1 refining his policy on dice rolls. He did a lot of stuff with dice that would never fly at that table just a year later. Very curious what other behavior I will notice when I continue my campaign 1 rewatch…

[@lsfranchi]

@@SupergeekMike Oh there are a few blatant times, and they're usually called out in the timestamps. Oh, I didn't say it before, but I love your content so far and I'm looking forward to seeing where your page goes 🙂

[@SupergeekMike]

Thank you so much!

[@noahdoss1967]

You mention the fantasy of wanting to be the smartest person in the room, but there's a saying, and it applies to DnD as well as life. If you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room.

[@shadowofhawk55]

Being the smartest is a very dangerous mindset, something I had to be kicked in the balls HARD during middle school to understand.

[@LordVader1094]

@@shadowofhawk55 Literally?

[@shadowofhawk55]

@@LordVader1094 No, cause despite how easy it is to hurl insults at the freak kid (which in hindsight I was) physical confrontation is something that the Gifted Kids lacked the stomach to do.

[@raamamurthysathyanarayanan4575]

Completely unrelated to the video, but as a person who feels dumb in most of the rooms he’s in, this is a kinda nice sentiment. Hm.

[@xuan.1611]

Teacher all over the world: pls tell me about it

[@jjmcgill567]

The one thing about the vest that makes it different from other random presents that the cast were gifted as was that, as I remember it, he sorta asked for it? Like he posted a picture on his twitter or instagram of it and was like 'isn't this the perfect Tiberius vest?' and then someone bought it for him and he was like 'what a surprise!' Just sorta felt like an abuse of power situation.

[@RiverInsanity]

Reminds me a lot of NLP tactics. Like spending time with people and going "Gosh I'd love a cheeseburger but I forgot a purse". It's an attempt at getting their "pity" so they'll buy for you. I must admit I've done that a few times when I was younger, which is shitty behaviour. But it makes it fairly easy for me to spot similar behaviour

[@Bryan-yl7mg]

Probably sent it to himself

[@sagehimlin3628]

I've only just started watching Critical Role so i might be mentioning this because its fresh in my mind but i'm surprised i haven't seen anyone mention the time in episode 3 where Vex and Keyleth were looking for tracks in the canyon/crevasse they were in and Orion just straight up takes away the flying carpet they used to go down into it because he didn't like that they were doing their own thing, Marisha and Laura looked seriously pissed about this, not just jokingly angry at tiberius.

[@SupergeekMike]

That’s an interesting moment in the context of how Orion plays, because I think he legitimately thought, “Oh, the girls found a cave, so we’re all going down,” and didn’t understand that nobody else thought that was the case (because he rarely vocalized his plans) until he’d already taken the carpet. But also… that’s an example of his metagaming. The girls found the cave, and he immediately flew down to get the carpet from them, because Orion knew they’d found a cave. Did Tiberius know? I’m not sure how he could’ve known. But it’s the same thing as happened in episode 1, when Vex and Keyleth are talking to the dwarf, and he bursts into the conversation because he knows he has a higher charisma score. Orion knew he’d be helpful, but how did Tiberius? Honestly, I think the reason it doesn’t get brought up much is just because there are… much worse examples coming up later in the show.

[@boggola]

I just watched that episode... and it is definitely interesting how different people read into actions differently. He did explicitly cite the need for the carpet above, as there was no bridge and no way for the other characters to do anything. Not to mention at this point they were using him as a personal flash light (and in several earlier episodes), and you completely skip over the part where Vex and Keyleth, basically said "fuck all you all and your vote" and split the party to do what they wanted to do. Matt, to his credit, made it worth the parties time, but there was no reason for them to disrespect the rest of the party. I realize this comment is 5 months old... so I am just yelling into the void...

[@sagehimlin3628]

@@boggola okay I must've misremembered the episode then I apologise, however correct me if im wrong orion did just go down and take their only means of getting back to the top of the chasm no? Seems like a bit of a dick move

[@boggola]

@@sagehimlin3628 too answer the first question, did he take their only means back, no. Keyleth is a a druid that routinely wild shapes as an eagle that can carry the half-elves and gnomes around. To answer the second part, was it a dick move, maybe, i am too new to the series to really be able to infer motivations, so perhaps he was being a dick, perhaps he was nieve, perhaps he didn't think enough beyond 'I want to do something I am bored'. Regardless, as of the 3rd episode, I like aspects of the character, and am saddened to hear things go south from here.

[@piperbird7193]

@@boggola If someone took my means of flying and forced me to use my twice a day wildshape ability against my will I'd be pissed. I know Tibs always blew through his sorcerer points and then just magically had more, but you can't just do that with wildshape. I'd have to go back and watch, but did Kiki already use hers for the day? Or did they plan to use it later to cross the bridge? Too bad, guess I have to burn it now because a metagamer came and stole the carpet.

[@sodasaintcommentaries4054]

Without mentioning the specifics, I will say this much: it takes an exceptionally nasty act to make somebody as happy and go-lucky as Travis Willingham angry, and without stating specifics, I don’t blame him at all. That was the beginning of the end for Orion, and sadly the dude hasn’t helped himself ever since.

[@SupergeekMike]

Agreed - I do think Orion’s behavior was starting to wear thin for everyone, but that final episode was certainly the last straw for Travis and likely others. And yeah, unfortunately Orion is responsible for his own actions since, which have only reinforced the fact that this was the right decision for the group and for the company.

[@CthulhuOnCam]

Travis looks enraged those last few episoded

[@SupergeekMike]

@@CthulhuOnCam He was ready to rage IRL.

[@nagasadow99]

@@CthulhuOnCam Yeah, he was done being quiet and playing nice. He wasn't dealing with his crap anymore. Lol

[@iamesoweso]

Which episode that was ? Made travis angry?

[@kitsunehanyou09]

Y'know I just clicked on this because I was morbidly curious to hear what someone might have thought about the earlier departure of Orion/Tiberius from Campaign 1 Critical Role. What I did get out of it was a bit of self reflection too, making me wonder if I had been a good player for my DM and DnD group too. It's genuinely uncomfortable hearing the kind of behavior Orion had at the table that I might not have caught on to right away when I was watching it, but even if it's uncomfortable I do need to listen to it as a warning. Thank you for this video! It gave me a lot of bitter things to swallow, but hopefully I can keep it to heart and be a better player for my DM and group.

[@SupergeekMike]

I’m very glad you enjoyed the video, and that it will be helpful to you! I should also confess that I’ve been guilty of some of this behavior as well, and I’ll dig into that a bit more in future videos - but safe to say, while I didn’t do exactly the same stuff, I have also had to reckon with some of my own behavior making other peoples’ games less fun. Perhaps that’s why I’m sympathetic toward some (not all, but some) of Orion’s foibles, because I really do understand where some of them came from. Thank you for watching, and I’m glad that it made an impact on you ♥️

[@ZyroShadowPony]

I agree on the self reflection. I may not be a toxic player but do remember moments where i may have been annoying like trying to get involved in everything. Thankfully thats starting to change as of campaign 2 but its hard not to forget especially when some habits are still there like talking over others (tends to be an accident because its played using discord)

[@shelbykutil9743]

If it helps, being able to admit this makes you one step ahead a lot of players out there! No one is perfect when we play D&D. We've all done stuff on this list. But being able to identify, or even just accept when other identify it, makes you a good player! Props to you for being willing to self reflect, it's a good skill to have in the world!

[@barking-in-the-dark]

I feel this way, too (about the self-reflection). I always worry that I'm not being a fair or good player, and sometimes I ask my DM (after the session) if I'm doing okay was there anything I need to change. I fear metagaming, and I strive to be a good player. I ask if I can do something before I do it or if it's okay to do a thing in a certain way.

[@llamafromspace]

Yeah, I think I agree. Self reflection on trying to lift others into the spotlight. I think I need to try more of that.

[@Logan_Baron]

I think all of Orions in show problems break down to "Main Character Syndrome". He had the idea, and yes I think it started when it was no longer a home game and it became the potential for something big, that it was going to be the Tiberius and Friends show, rather than being an ensemble game. He wanted to have his drum solo moments, and then also wanted to have everyone elses too. There were minor moments of him just trying to put himself into every scene that could get attention. When Vax was in the back room with Gilmore (they were discussing business) Tiberius suddenly butted into the conversation and they had to remind him he wasn't there. It's like an actor wanting to be in every scene. Someone would make a joke and he would try to be a part of it, again often when he wasn't even there. There were many times that someone would say they were doing something and it was either clever or funny and Orion would say "I do that too". Because it all had to be about him or include him. Then I noticed in the beginning of the Briarwood arc, after the first battle after the big feast, they were discussing the Briarwoods and Tiberius said "I hate them most of all". Because they had cast that mind spell on him. I realized he was trying to turn the Briarwood/Whitestone story into a Tiberius story instead of a Percy story. Because why would a book or movie about a main character be someone else's story. Rewatching several times I noticed that he started trying to take on attributes of the other characters. Vex's bear Trinket was a fan favorite, so Tiberius gets a pet. Percy is the inventor, suddenly Tibs is trying to create similar things. Grog was the brutal and vicious weapons fighter, and fans liked those moments, which Grog could take the spotlight in, so he has weapons crafted and uses them brutally. I actually think that "half chub" comment was an effort to imitate Scanlan's popular dirty jokes. In D&D not only should all the group get their moments, but the party should each have their roles. Tibs was the intelligent but befuddled Sorceror and Only full caster class in the group. That was a vital part that he could fill, but he wanted all the roles. The rest of the group were good about meshing each characters differing abilities and letting others have the spotlight at the right moments. Sometimes even turning the spotlight onto the other characters.

[@SupergeekMike]

Oh my god I forgot about his pet, and how completely unmotivated it was, and just came out of nowhere. That is a *really* good point, not just about main character syndrome but about trying to copy everyone else’s success/what made them beloved to viewers. The Percy one always seemed like an obvious parallel, but Grog’s violence, Trinket’s cuteness and Scanlan’s jokes are all really good points as well. And they all line up with the rest of his behavior, which as you said, so often involved trying to get the glory (which often resulted in stealing other players’ thunder). And also, his habit of slipping into every scene that was happening was always annoying, and honestly should’ve been the first warning sign. He does it even in episode 1, when he approaches the table to “bail out” Vex and Keyleth with his high persuasion score. And it never really stopped while he was on the show, sadly.

[@piranhaplantX]

While I mostly agree with the rest. I would like to point out that he is neither the only full spellcaster in the group, nor is he even the only full arcane caster in the group. Bard, especially Lore Bard, is actually a really well-rounded caster in 5E. Which might seem weird considering the theming of the class, or for those of us coming from older versions. But pre-Tasha's I would argue that they're a more well-rounded caster than Sorcerer. They don't have as many blasty spells as Sorc. But a Lore Bard can pretty much steal the major ones with their magical secrets and be nearly as blasty as your typical Sorcerer while doling out more support.

[@SupergeekMike]

That is true, and I’m not sure the party had fully grasped that until later. Still, there’s a reason Sam got his first kill ever in the campaign in the first session - he had spells that could do damage. But I think it may not have been until the Scanbo sequence in episode 31 that the cast fully realized just how POWERFUL Scanlan was in the new edition.

[@irishlad6444]

The chub remark was cringe worthy because it was in response to vets which may Travis extremely upset.

[@StephanFitzgeraldTay]

Scanlan, Keyleth, and Pike were all "full casters" as well. Scanlan is a bard, Keyleth a Druid, and Pike a Cleric... all of them are 9th level casters in 5e (Scanlan was the only one who wouldn't have been a full caster in Pathfinder 1e)

[@peachlar]

I think it's important to note two more moments where you can see how problematic he is as a player and a person. One is the buying mirrors moment, where you can see how feed up everyone on the table, SPECIALLY Travis, is but he just doesn't care. And more importantly, when playing a drunk Tiberius, how Orion keeps leaning on Marisha, invading her personal space, and you can CLEARLY see that she is very very uncomfortable. At that point he just wanted to be the center of attention without really caring of the rest and it showed. I'm really glad you mentioning Percy at the end, because Tiberius was constantly trying to outshine him and steal all his moments, including Percy's background/character development moments. I think I've never seen Matt that frustrated with anything else than him trying to deal with all that stuff that Orion tried to pull.

[@NohLimits]

This was a really good way to both summarize and explain to a new CR fan why Orion and Tiberius are no longer a part of the cast, it helped to fill in a lot of gaps that I felt were overshadowed and it saved me from having to go back and dissect the starting episodes one by one, so thank you for the informative video!

[@DevinEMILE]

He also just had ability points that he in no way should have. Sam openly glancing at Orions roles and making faces at Matt when what Orion said wasn’t adding up.

[@redhoodie4111]

Yeah, I noticed that too. I just started watching campaign 1 to get caught up and it always kind of bothered me that Tiberius never once failed a roll except towards the end when he was charmed by the Briarwoods and his mind went back to lizard man

[@sillyjellyfish2421]

Yeah... So many "natural" 20s and 19s and so many rised eyebrows from Sam and Marisha

[@AriesCorinthier]

I always felt Orion was kinda the out player. But I've played/run with players that are similar to Orion so I suppose this is why I picked up on it quickly.

[@BringerOfGeekdom]

I think something that has been lost in all of this (probably due to this primarily unfolding on twitter, which is notoriously hard to archive content on) is that two of his ex girlfriends claimed to be abused by him, to the point where restraining orders were filed. I think this more than anything needs to be acknowledged given the harm caused to real people, but I get why a lot of fans aren’t aware-Orion certainly tried to cover it up as well I also remember another scandal that mostly unraveled on twitter, where one of the mods for his twitch chat lost her father. Orion set up a fundraiser for her (without telling her) only to keep most of the money for himself (and the only reason he even gave up some money was because people found out and began tweeting about it)

[@caitsil3366]

The most memorable Tiberius moment for me is when Vex showed how intelligent she was and Orion said that Tiberius was becoming aroused. The looks on everyone's faces around that table were not good.

[@giankjojo]

you can pause right when he starts commenting on the chub and, while the video is paused, use your arrow keys to advance the video forward but once, the faces of everyone, the subtitles "...what?", what you get is a pretty decent representation of a before and after disaster.

[@nunya5230]

I don't think him wearing a vest for two sessions is bad at all there is literally nothing wrong with that imo. THE FLAME THROWER ON THE OTHERHAND...

[@Fleatingdays]

I don't think it would matter much if he put the flamethrower on his other hand

[@SupergeekMike]

A++ comment

[@nunya5230]

@@Fleatingdays I think he should've tested it to see how much damage it did compared to fireball

[@cyndrigaming]

Same, if I played irl instead of online, I would absolutely try to cosplay my character xD but the flamethrower? Heeeeeelllz no. Not cool

[@nephicus339]

@@nunya5230 He did, a few times. The gadget came with flash paper. I'm sure you can find people testing the gadget. It's a popular tool among magicians. I wasn't overly concerned about Orion wearing it around because it doesn't really work without the flash paper.

[@andrewpaul8732]

When he cast silence on scanlon to talk over him I was really just at a loss for words. Silence is an AoE spell not targeted , sorcerers don't even have access to it and the only spells you should be casting on friends are healing and cleansing spells.

[@twilightgeneral777]

Heh, "loss for words"

[@idontevenlikemoney]

They cast it on Nott in C2 when she's talking to Halas, which was both funny and the right thing to do at that moment.

[@crazyscotsman9327]

Ya, I hate it when players try to use magic on other players to fuck them over or to control them. I literally tell every group, You are not allowed to use any compulsion spells on another party member. Period. End of discussion. You try it fails and I will remind you it is not allowed. You cannot force anyone in the party to do anything. Persuade them with your words and logic. Not bending them to your will.

[@CurryFeatures]

To be fair that was one of the funnier exchanges because Orion casts Silence on Sam, and without missing a beat Sam casts Counterspell.

[@crazyscotsman9327]

@@CurryFeatures Sure it's funny, but it's absolutely disrespectful both in and out of character.

[@Luke-pk4zp]

4:06 Reminds me of when liam had to say something along the lines of, 'Not every move is a guitar solo'

[@jonathanwiedenheft1956]

Wow, yeah, I’m watching through campaign 1 for the first time, already knowing of all the Orion issues and that line hit hard

[@Vaillle]

What’s nice about the crew now is they’re very in sync with each other. They’re self-aware and character/narrative driven. They know how to play interesting and likable characters and have the sense to play in a way that is in harmony with the actions and characters of the rest of the team. And through that, you end up with a crew of ALL main characters acting as supporting characters for each other. It’s very well balanced.

[@Lykangroux]

Good points all around, though as a DM with type 1 Diabetes, I will always support mid-game snacking. Even if you don't have a medical issue, low blood sugar makes you feel like dogshit. If you are streaming with buddies or playing in person at home, the fantasy can work around personal comfort, guys. It's still a game, after all.

[@SupergeekMike]

Oh yeah, I’m always down with food at the table, I just think they should’ve found a way to keep it away from the mics - but they still snack on camera, so certainly it doesn’t seem the folks at CR agree with me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@kaiserofkush]

We take 2 or three 10 minute bio/snack breaks usually. If we're online, just mute your mic if youre cronchin.

[@zer0L0ne]

I'm type 1 too!

[@godspeedhero3671]

@@SupergeekMike Yeah, the snacking was a bit obnoxious. I kind of let it slide because of how much less professional quality the stream was back then. Like, it was a SUPER casual stream.

[@marisapoulsen]

They still snack on-stream nowadays, especially Laura I've noticed. They've always played for 3+ hours, even during early c1, so I really don't think the snacking is a big deal, although y'all are right that they've definitely gotten more professional with it since then!

[@Covah86]

Don't be afraid to remove problematic players from the table. Help them to get the help they need, if they need it.

[@Kaipyro67ALT]

Yeah it's hard but my god does the game improve after they're gone. And I say this meaning after you've had a couple conversations with them and explained to them the issues you have with their behaviour and if they still do it, then you boot them. I've had a mad scientist player who always wanted to fuck with everything just to see what happens, and it was never in a playful way. The party always suffered the consequences. I've had a metagamer who would read the monster manual as I threw monsters at the party. I had a player who wanted to sleep with every character in sight, to an uncomfortable degree. I've had a closet homophobe and racist who revealed that about himself in session ONE. I've had other problem players, but these are the types to really watch out for. These ones really stick out in your mind.

[@jaredouimette1]

Or you miscalculate and he takes the table with him lol.

[@KumaoftheForest]

They played with him for years before they started recording it, why wait if they had a problem with him

[@KingXOreo]

Don't be a afraid.. just be justified. I got kicked from a party for "asking too many questions" my 3rd week of ever playing the game.

[@shadowofhawk55]

Apparently they tried to get him help, and he did something in episode 27 (a comment about one of the women at the table from what I have been told) that got him removed. They were friends, I imagine they didn't want to throw him away but at the same time he wasn't making it easy for them.

[@DarthSidian]

Orion Acaba as a player was of the entirely wrong mindset for D&D, especially for a mature and very nuanced show like Critical Role. Seeing some of the actions of his, especially the Main Character Syndrome, strikes a few chords with me, and it makes me reflect upon my own actions in past campaigns, albeit on a _much_ lower scale and level of intensity. Either way, it's still not something I am proud of as a player, and it's something I am still trying to rectify myself. Tiberius the character? I liked him. I'll admit it, he was a great character with so much potential to be amazing. Orion, the player, completely wasted it with his shitty actions.

[@queen_nat4586]

100% agree. if Tiberius was played by someone who understood he was part of a team, and not someone wo thought he could just do what he wants when he wants, he would have been amazing. He constantly was taking everything into his own hands even when other cast members had already brought forth a solution. If he would have just waited for the moments when only he, as a sorcerer, could have accomplished the team's goals it would have been fine.

[@Draeckon]

Yeah, Tiberius was and kind of still is my favorite character from C1. It's why I ended up dropping the show for a long time back when I first tried to watch it and learned Orion was leaving the show. I understand why he had to be booted, but it still sucked seeing my favorite character go, especially when they started publishing the Tal'dorei setting books without ever mentioning him (I only later learned it was due to Orion getting an explicit copyright on the character that this really happened). I later tried to restart watching it, got to about the same point and the awkward tension in the room made me stop again. I _finally_ pushed through on the third attempt by just picking up right where I left off instead of starting over, and I'm now almost done with C1 - still dealing with the Chroma Conclave right now, and it looks like I'm almost at the climax. I was worried I would forget a lot of details from early on, but it turns out having watched the early segment twice before made a lot of it stick in my memory better.

[@saltyfries680]

HONESTLY. I actually really enjoyed the idea of Tiberius and his sort of funny, snooty character. But the way Orion played him made Tiberius a very unlikeable presence in the show. Really unfortunate.

[@Shocel53]

I did always get the sense Matt made Allura and Lady Kima an item as a direct response to Tiberius' romantic interest in Allura, much like he brought in Scanlan's daughter as a response to Scanlan's attitudes towards women and sex.

[@artemiswallace8716]

allura and kima had a little bit of set up already in the before stream times. and matt has said that there was a chance kima and allura wouldnt get together, but situations unfolding throughout the game brought them closer. i imagine one of hem was tibs losing interest and then disappearing back to draconia

[@Shocel53]

@@artemiswallace8716 Ah, cool, I never heard that before.

[@joshkorte9020]

I know that Sam and Matt had conversations about bringing in Kaylee and that Scanlan was problematic because Sam wanted to tell that story. It wasn't Sam being terrible towards women, it was the character. Same probably can't be said for Orion/Tiberius. Matt was OK with an Alura and Tiberius relationship, but Tiberius's actions (killing an old woman) made it harder. Kima was intended to maybe make it more complicated, but not impossible at first, but Tiberius/Orion made the situation worse because they didn't want a challenge and just wanted to "win".

[@perciusmandate]

The issue with the shirt wasn't even necessarily with the shirt itself, as far as I'm aware. Orion had a right to not be cool with someone using his character in a way he didn't approve. He *didn't* have a right to "un-critter" that fan over it. Which is what he tried to do. Orion didn't have the authority to banish people from the fanbase over something like that. And I'm sure the rest of the CR team didn't want it spreading around that fans could be "un-crittered" just because one of the cast didn't like your fanart. It's not good optics for a project that was only barely off the ground.

[@elbruces]

Technically he had "the right" to do everything he did.

[@jamiekelley4076]

@@elbruces Depends on what you mean by right. If you're saying he had every legal right to say the things he did sure but to kick someone out of the fanbase not so much.

[@elbruces]

@@jamiekelley4076 Well, you can say you did, but that doesn't mean you did. I have the "right" to flap my arms to fly, but that doesn't mean I've actually taken flight.

[@marshallwilver8831]

Will say love the Percy take. Taliesin Jaffe is legit probably my favorite player at the table. He will legit hold on to a moment that he sees he can make and manifests it into existence at the exact right moment i.e. the titling of vex or molly with “i am your god. Long my I reign. eat of my fruits”. Not sure he ever would have been able to grab the spotlight with a player with “main character” syndrome sitting at the table. The seven remaining cast members seem to know the perfect time to take it and the perfect time to sit back and let their friend shine

[@elbruces]

It's true, Taliesin talks the least overall of any CR player but arguably has the most memorable one-liners. He waits for his opening. With a spotlight hog in the mix, his style of RP is almost impossible to play. Which is why Percy only really started to shine once Acaba was gone.

[@chechema1010]

also, check out Caduceus (Tal's another PC) advice to Trent in C2 EP 110. and "help, it's again." :)

[@Big_Red1]

@@elbruces "Life needs things to live."

[@elbruces]

@@Big_Red1 It's not wrong.

[@Big_Red1]

@@elbruces Technically correct is the best kind of correct.

[@spacewolf5462]

One last addendum that I would've added that went along with his meta gaming and going Nova, was how he'd regularly cheat. He'd use sorcerer points he didn't have, to the point Matt on multiple occasions would question him on it.

[@mrcorbak6793]

Did not watch the first show so I won't comment too much but, REALLY ? There are people that cheat, in a DND GAME ? Come on man.

[@KumaoftheForest]

@@mrcorbak6793 as a Sorcerer main, his use of Sorcery Points hurt my Clockwork Soul

[@Samaru163]

@@KumaoftheForest Fellow sorcerer main. His actions bring shame to all us Draconic Bloodline sorcerers and the red dragon who granted him his powers.

[@daneroberts1996]

My least favourite moment was in the first Vasselheim arc when they're going down through a spider-infested temple filled with traps, there's a trap that can only be turned off by hitting a button far away on the ceiling, and Vex wants to shoot an arrow at it. It's going to be a difficult feat to pull off, but everyone tries to support her with inspiration and enhanced abilities and other spells, and Tiberius offers to telekinetically guide her arrow, which she doesn't agree to. She ends up rolling MASSIVELY high, and everyone is ecstatic, Laura most of all of course, and really hyped as Matt describes the action and the arrow's flight is vivid epic detail. Then right at the end Orion interrupts Matt to say "and with telekinesis I grab the arrow and push it up!" causing everyone to start shouting at him that he would ruin the action (which realistically it would have). Matt, to his credit, tried to build it into the scene, describing Tiberius as pushing the arrow up even harder into the button, but you can tell everyone else is angry with Orion. Even if you read the chat comments, people are dissing him for stomping all over Laura's big moment and forcing the spotlight back onto himself.

[@elbruces]

Honestly, I don't think he even mentioned the telekinetic assist until *after* she'd rolled the die and got a nat20. And then he started in. She even said "just let me have this!" but he steamrolled right on about how he was using telekinesis to guide her arrow. In hindsight (being 20/20) Matt should have said that his TK was at most a "help" action, giving her advantage, which she didn't need, since her first die roll was enough. Or he could have said that her die was already rolled, it's too late to affect the outcome now.

[@JackDManheim]

Yeah, that was frustrating. He wanted in on the attention she was getting. I like the way that, afterwards, everybody congratulates her specifically by name and not him.

[@elbruces]

@@JackDManheim In hindsight-land, I'd say Matt could have said that his spell assist gave her advantage on the roll. Thing is, she already laid down that nat20. *Then* he started going into his own little world about how it was really about him. And yes, they all rightfully gave her the props, but he still put a stain on her accomplishment. You can tell she wasn't as happy as she would have been.

[@haryx1964]

The whole situation was pretty frustrating, because Tiberius was a very fun and interesting character that ended up getting ruined by a problematic player. I occasionally stop to wonder how differently things could have turned out across the campaign, hell, across all of Critical Role as a company if he had stopped his nonsense and Tiberius got to stick around.

[@happenstancially4132]

Drugs and tragic circumstances often warp the character played. As someone who was able to watch Ryan’s video, he did calm down a lot. His video was kinda blame gaming a bit, so I understand why it wouldn’t, but I almost wish they would reach out and try a guest appearance, like joe.

[@lagautmd]

It appeared that Orion was so sure that D&D at Matt's table was an inherently adversarial game that he didn't want to simply communicate with Matt about goals and intentions prior to the game. If he'd sat down with Matt and said that he wanted to create a gizmo Matt either would have explained that it wasn't proper for his character or facilitated it happening. It was weird. And, it was terribly sad because when Orion's portrayal of Tiberius was on-point it was very entertaining.

[@pazz]

In this hypothetical, If he was still the same guy who did the same type of stuff in his personal life, then some sketchy stuff would have eventually come to light, and Critical Role would have been affected by it. I believe if he had stuck around, he would have eventually been ousted from the company anyways and the show would have faced a catastrophic downfall due to their ties with him. That, or it would have never gained as much popularity due to viewers being fed up with him.

[@MV-ri7zu]

@@pazz Yeah knowing the kind of fanbase CR has they would have been canceled to death. A bunch of weirdos in this fanbase.

[@olesams]

@@happenstancially4132 Guest appearance? Fuck no. When you screw up that hard, and just double down as a pos, you leave that toxic person out. You know about all his personal shit too, right? The mental abuse he put others through? Fuck him. And i dont say that about anyone. Not even exes.

[@laylyoldwild]

What really got me was the mirror shopping. Matt had made it clear that any errands needed to be quick, everyone else summed up what they wanted, Orion then took forever trying to get all these pieces in order to recreate sunlight, in a way that (from my perspective of the reactions) made it feel like he was intending to push Keyleth out of the way to kill the vampire himself. If he'd been more concise or had Tiberius talk to another character about it as a backup plan he still could have had his "great invention" without hogging the space.

[@SupergeekMike]

It’s a rough watch.

[@johnriverdavis3497]

To be fair, a lot of people in these comments don't seem to understand that the *DM* controls the pacing, not the players. It's valid but lets not all put it on one person.

[@joshholmes1372]

@@johnriverdavis3497 lol....yes the DM does, but with a group of friends it can be hard at times to shut one player down. He shouldn't have put him in the position in the first place by respecting the initial scenario and how everyone else was playing. Most DMs will have had an experience with a player that just doesn't get it and brings the group down. Let's not avoid placing responsibility where it belongs.

[@johnriverdavis3497]

@@joshholmes1372 "It can be hard with a group of friends" is an explanation, but no one said being a DM was easy. The behavior doesn't get this bad if the other players address it earlier. It's *every* players responsibility to help contribute to the social health of the game. As most players defer to the DM, the DM has outsized importance (whether fair or not is up to debate). Matt definitely enabled this behavior in small ways that are totally understandable *but* are avoidable if we learn from it via critique.

[@Zalied]

@@johnriverdavis3497 the thing you have to realize though is they probbsly did talk outside of the game and the dm can only do so much when you can't start drama on a huge popular live stream. Matt's not about to start a fight on live stream and given these were friends who played for a long time out of game there was probably hopes to get it fixed but they booted him. Saying it's the dms job is right yes Matt could push it forward but he's also skirting around preventing drama which you can argue failed and shoulda been handled sooner of course but in the moment it's not fair to day it's just the dm shoulda solved it. That only works when the players listen to the dm which Orion was not

[@darrinlohmeyer6640]

As a long time DM myself, what really bugged me is the fudging of every die roll. He NEVER failed. At least , that's what he told Matt. BUT if you go back and watch Sam next to Orion and watching every die roll. HE failed quite a few of those.. That being one of My personal pet peeves, I would have pulled Orion aside and been like this isn't a video game, failing and working together as a team to overcome failures and adversity is what makes it fun for everyone. That includes those of us that love to watch.

[@Logan_Baron]

I believe they, or Matt likely did pull Orion aside and talk to him and try to work things out, but kept it a private matter behind the scenes.

[@MV-ri7zu]

@@Logan_Baron 100% they did, but he didnt stop, which is why they got rid of him. He just didnt improve.

[@rime3589]

@@MV-ri7zu He was not kicked off critical role, he left on his own volition with what was at the time a mutual departing. But he was fully removed from the future of critical role following his actions after leaving the show.

[@MV-ri7zu]

@@rime3589 yeah they got rid of him like I said.

[@yuki97kira]

Thing about dnd is failing made it fun.. Its real unexpected and its something that makes you think, which wouldnt happen if you keep succeeding

[@clubardi]

A year late by now, I am on ep 34 by now, and after Orion left it was a much smoother flow of the story, Matt can actually finish describing a room, especially if it is dark and not having "I CAST LIGHT" the moment he says "it is da-", and one of my fav snarky things said to Orion was when Tiberius was trying to teach Lockheed to be quiet and Matt says "An important thing for a creature to learn" whether or not it was intended directly towards Orion or not, it felt like it, especially with what I said above about the light casting

[@Xeonise]

Good spot, I remember that and didn't see it that way then, but now I think you're right.