The Worst Writing Advice I've Ever Heard w/ Brandon Sanderson & Tim Hickson (

What's the WORST writing advice Brandon Sanderson and Tim Hickson have ever heard? Well, they each bring five of the most controversial contradictions they've received to this conversation on writing.
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Chapters
(0:00) - Introductions
(1:39) - ShOw DoN'T TeLL and wrITe whAT YoU kNoW
(7:28) - Said is DEAD
(13:22) - You don't need discipline
(16:46) - Characters have to be likable
(21:11) - Rats with swords and terrible tips from professionals
(26:02) - Everything has to be plot-relevant
(30:57) - Never revise
(35:10) - Ruin your characters LIVES
(37:35) - Be more attractive
(41:40) - It's the hero's journey or the highway

[@HelloFutureMe]

It was an absolute pleasure hanging out! ~ Tim

[@dummbobqqqqq]

Tim you really have grown into the big leagues! You are the main reason why I wrote 300 Pages of Worldbuilding and Storrytelling für my Dark Fantasy-Cosmic Horror- Steampunk world (Think: Bloodborne, Dishonored, Hollow Knight) and you got a good idea 😊❤

[@matiesponja]

Hello Tim, you make me believe that if i become a booktuber I will also be able to hang out with Brandon so thanks for your videos i always enjoy them and also the rest of the booktuber community

[@PhoenixCrown]

Tim, you're the man! Been watching you for years and love to watch you evolve. (Hopefully, I'm evolving with you =) )

[@haileegonzales7343]

Omg Tim! I’ve been watching and learning from you for years now and this is so great!! 😃

[@taylorbrosseau5337]

Well, this was a surprise. My first thought was "Hey, I bought that guy's book on world building!" Congratulations on your success - this is huge.

[@OverlySarcasticProductions]

DICAPRIO POINTING AT THE SCREEN MEME -R

[@evilgabe]

lol, that was my reaction too, i actually have both of their books right next to each other on my shelf

[@user-vn5zr2pe4f]

I'm doing that at this comment as well

[@lagggoat7170]

So - Sanderson has done content with Daniel Greene and now with HfM. OSP-Sanderson collab when? 😛

[@sawyerharrell1453]

Wow. What are you doing here?

[@buttersticks7877]

​@@user-vn5zr2pe4fand I'M doing it at YOUR comment!

[@TheKartana]

A piece of advice from board game design that I think should be applied to beta reader feedback is "Always listen to how your playtesters feel, never listen to what they suggest".

[@futurestoryteller]

Unless they suggest ideas you were already floating, right? I love confirmation bias!

[@jonwesick2844]

Agreed. Readers can identify a problem but I find the solution is often not what they suggest.

[@helloyou6192]

Bill Hader said something similar. Everyone knows when something works only you know how to fix it.

[@Eagledude131]

I think it's worth hearing out ideas too, but hold onto that idea. I think there's a lot of value in listening to why people would make the changes they propose. They might notice a problem you didn't or suggest an interesting angle on an aspect you're struggling with down the road.

[@insentia8424]

@@Eagledude131 But you are also saying not to listen to the suggestions, but why they make said suggestions, so their feelings. In the end, be it book, game, anything else, the suggestions you get will, most of the time, benefit the person saying said suggestion the most, rather than benefitting whatever you are creating. And then there is the issue... that the one giving feedback might not even be close to your target audience, which means the issue isn't actually with what you are creating, but with the person's interests just not aligning. It's will very likely going to hurt your creation if you heed that advice. And that's the crux of "always listen to what they feel, not what they suggest": figure out the issue the feedback is highlighting, and think thoroughly on how to fix it, rather than just taking any random person's suggestion on how to fix something.

[@aerynmusick4548]

Picasso said, “when your muse arrives, she must find you working!”

[@HaldirMark]

Now that's some poignant shit!

[@mrjaronchilds577]

A good friend of mine once told me that "if you want to get struck by lightning, you need to be out there holding up your golf club."

[@Ruylopez778]

Or as Pressfield said, the muse loves a blue collar worker

[@Truffle_Pup]

I once said, "Sometimes I think I tie my shoes too tight."

[@Ouvii]

The more I learn about Picasso-like especially his "normal" art-the more and more based he seemed.

[@zileris]

Bad advice: "Dont use 'said'" "Always use 'said'" Good advice: "Only the Sith deal in ab-said-lutes"

[@j.b.5422]

hehe

[@JimCullen]

"Always use said" is only good advice if you're writing _Gadsby_ or _A Void._

[@HaldirMark]

Ya know, ever since hearing that originally, I couldn't help recognising the irony (though I didn't know the word for it) of "only a Sith deals in absolutes" being an absolute statement. Still haven't figure out what that's supposed to mean for Obi Wan's character.

[@l3rucewayne1]

​@HaldirMark I'm glad you notcied that and said something here! That irony shows up alot for a number of similar statements, like those disparaging the idea of objective truth or affirming postmodernism "the meaning of all text is a purely subjective matter" etc.

[@jjkthebest]

@@j.b.5422 for some reason I get a "translate to english" link below your comment and when I click it, it translates "hehe" to "lol" xD

[@voidsabre_]

Something most people have forgotten is that "Show, don't tell" was originally advice for playwrites, not novel authors

[@nicholassinnett2958]

It definitely still has a place in novels. If every emotional experience is summed up as "X was [emotion]" or "X felt [emotion]", it just feels like any chance of immersing yourself in the character's experience gets shut down straight away. Still, there's absolutely times where you need to just tell something instead of spending three sentences on it, since it's not worth dwelling on.

[@porky1118]

Yeah, it doesn't really make sense for novels anyway. It's rather something like "explicit" vs "implicit".

[@RodrickMarsMoon]

The worst advice I've ever heard is "never write subplots, if your story can't work without another one, you're a terrible author". That was so ridiculous that I couldn't even laugh at it 😒😅.

[@Creepsandwicheater]

"I know writers who use subplots and they are all cowards"- somehow worse Garth Marenghi

[@futurestoryteller]

To be completely fair, you probably need to make sure your story works without subplots just in case you need to cut them out.

[@RodrickMarsMoon]

@@futurestoryteller But wouldn't be so much better and make more sense if everything fit and are equally important together? Like, the subplot (s) being so crucial that if you cut out a single line/character/chapter from it, would make everything fall apart. All my books are like this, and are praised for that, for example.

[@futurestoryteller]

@@RodrickMarsMoon You would think, right? Have you ever seen that clip of the production viewing the first cut of "The Phantom Menace" that ends with everybody wearing their Doomsday faces, while George Lucas explains that the film can't be cut down, even if (by implication) he thinks it's a good idea, because all of the pieces are just too integrated? I know exactly what you mean. I loved the book "Holes" when I was a kid, but depending on the choices you've made, it can be a curse. It also brings one to a philosophical debate about the meaning of the word "subplot." If your story needs its subplot, that's plot.

[@RodrickMarsMoon]

@@futurestoryteller "If your story needs its subplot, that's plot"... I like this line very much; I wonder why I never heard of the when I was on film school 🤔🤗...!

[@drew_clem]

34:45: to quote Bill Hader (who I think was quoting someone else) "When someone tells you something is wrong, they're right. When they tell you how to make it right, they're wrong."

[@aix83]

However something as vague as "something is wrong" is also very unhelpful

[@drew_clem]

@@aix83 In terms of fixing what the wrong thing is, yes. But further discussion could provide more info that the author could use to pinpoint the issue.

[@nightsfog]

Neil Gaiman

[@terrycassis1864]

A​@@drew_clem

[@sethlowen2303]

I think much better advice than “write what you know” is “emphasize what you know.”

[@sr71silver]

I would say the better advice is "do your damn research."

[@CommanderParatus]

Perhaps it is a mirror, "Know what you write" which requires research and understanding

[@ezailcrowson1]

also, "use what you know." i echo, "know what you write."

[@willow1601]

@@sr71silver so... much... research. lol

[@sr71silver]

@@willow1601 true, but it's usually worth it.

[@nathancarter8239]

Regarding "Said is DEAD": shout out to _My Immortal_ for the most confusing and out-of-pocket use of the tag "roared" I've ever seen, within the first few paragraphs of the story.

[@akl2k7]

Everything about that fic was a solid example of bad writing. Don't forget how she does everything sexily.

[@slormworm4732]

For those wondering: "I'm so sorry." he said in a shy voice. "That's all right. What's your name?" I questioned. "My name's Harry Potter, although most people call me Vampire these days." he grumbled. "Why?" I exclaimed. "Because I love the taste of human blood." he giggled. "Well, I am a vampire." I confessed. "Really?" he whimpered. "Yeah." I roared. Took me a while to find the scene because I had to recover from Dumbledore asking "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING YOU MOTHERFUKERS!" [sic]

[@Szystedt]

@@slormworm4732Thank you! I think 😭 I still can't believe my old middle school teacher expected and wanted us to write like that, emphasizing that you shouldn't use "said."

[@johnnyritenbaugh1214]

"Snape ejaculated." never forget. 🤣

[@Bronze_Age_Sea_Person]

Writing Advice: The only time using the tag "roared" should definitely replace said is when the speaker is a lion.

[@diminished4934]

In the rats with swords section, they talk about how people don't give feedback that is always helpful because they don't know the intention behind what they read. This is a thing in game development, where you give your game to beta testers, and they will all give different feedback. At some point, a developer will have to become an expert in interpreting feedback to know what about the feel of the game is wrong, instead of what the specific thing said in each case of feedback was wrong, and this can very easily apply to writing too. Love this video!

[@Omnicrola]

Very much so, this applies to so many things. People want to be helpful and most will offer advice or suggestions that they genuinely believe will improve someone else's work. It's critically important to look at that advice and try to determine why they gave it, and ask followup questions to clarify. If they interpreted something you created differently that you had intended, they may give feedback that appears wildly off base until you understand why.

[@jacksonhorrocks4281]

This is why I always try to give feedback with a tacked on "as ever, take it or leave it"

[@ricebix]

Apparently with one of the Halo games, playtesters were complaining about the basic grunt enemies, saying their programming is bad and they're too easy, after a trying a bunch of different things and nothing working, it turned out the solution was just to up the health on the grunts, then the playtesters were satisfied

[@theyodanesss]

"No rule is firm in writing" Noted. Don't take that statement to heart. Only Sith deal in absolutes.😂

[@konstantinmilyutin1190]

Although, this statement itself is an absolute...

[@theyodanesss]

😱

[@evilgabe]

no, you should use words in writing

[@fiskern2241]

@@evilgabe ???

[@VoxAstra-qk4jz]

​@@evilgabe You can't tell me what to do!

[@abomidog]

“No rule is firm, even this one.”

[@tarantinoburrows1406]

Two legends talking with each other? This must be a fantasy come true . . .

[@breedersjourney]

did you just compare brando to a guy who makes YT videos about avatar?

[@tarantinoburrows1406]

@@breedersjourney I mean, he does other stuff on his channel too . . .

[@idunn000]

​@@breedersjourneyplease shut the hell up

[@nuclearmedicineman6270]

Well.. not *proper* fantasy, there aren't any rats with swords.

[@mikeshaffer4912]

I've never heard of this KZbinr until this video.

[@TajsJespersen]

“Show, don’t tell” makes infinitely more sense in filmmaking, than in writing.

[@jenniferm.2142]

Not really. It makes perfect sense in writing too. Tell would be like… “Jamie was really mad.” Show would be… “Jamie slammed his fist into the desk.” Now you’re seeing it instead of me just telling you his emotion.

[@jaxpk2669]

*laughing in Malazan*

[@TajsJespersen]

@@jenniferm.2142 yeah not saying it doesn’t make sense. But as Brandon says: in writing you have to use so many more words to show it. In filmmaking you “simply” show it.

[@Ruylopez778]

@@TajsJespersen It's the same problem, though whatever the medium. If you are allowing the audience to notice and form conclusions, it takes longer than simply stating it. Think how much effort in screen time you need to convey the idea, 'I hate my job' convincingly vs how quickly a character can say it in dialogue or narration.

[@natalimoina]

Still similar in filmmaking. Tell and show are both important and to be used. Just make sure you're showing when it's important and not only telling.

[@rebellion6519]

The 'Show, Don't Tell' I believe in goes beyond the prose level - if your character has a trait, and you keep telling us they have the trait, but it is not evident in any of the actions shown in the story (or possibly contradicted), then you need a good Show, Don't Tell. If your world is a beautiful hopeful world, but you've only shown us the darkest side of it, you might need to Show us some more of the light side to give us that contrast.

[@jennymunday7913]

I've also heard it as 'describe, don't explain". (Describe how your character is angry instead of just saying they're angry) I mix that with a general rule of thumb: 'How much does this emotion or action affect the scene?' If it's a fleeting feeling, then sure '"XYZ!" he says angrily' Is fine. But if anger is a driving force for the chapter, then delve in, describe it, roll around in it like a cat rolls in cow poop, and go for it.

[@tattoodude8946]

Show don't tell is a great rule - but it can be both overdone and underdone - and that's the problem. That, and it has really become the hot button topic everyone feels the need to weigh in on (me included apparently). For a while it was really pushed as an absolute and you should ALWAYS show and never tell. Now the pendulum is swinging the other way and I see many videos pushing back. There are some great videos about it, and others... not so much. But I think what people need to know is that you need to show FAR more than you tell, but you still need to tell. Telling is a vital part of story--um--telling. For example, it can be very helpful to say your main character is shy and THEN show that through their actions. This doubles down, really reenforcing that with your readers while also making sure they don't misread the showing of the character's shyness and think they are aloof, snobby or even mean. Another need for telling is often when you start a story. There are going to be some details about the backstory, setting or some characters that just need to be chucked out there to give a rough outline of what's going on and showing all of it would be tiresome, verbose and frankly, unnecessary.

[@TheButterflyChaos]

Yep. Also some shows doesn't necessarily work unless you have set up the scene well enough. Without context things like "tapping the foot" can be different things. They gave the example as being nervous. It could also be being impatient when being kept waiting. Or a tic. Or just being excited/having too much energy and not being able to sit still. So just using some behaviour without other cues it can be confusing

[@LoisoPondohva]

1. Show, don't tell was originally an advice for playwrights. It's very applicable in visual or hybrid media for that reason. Less so - in verbal media. 2. In the most charitable interpretation, it should be "Show, don't JUST tell".

[@MOTOR-er1vg]

hard agree. Its also a matter of how many people make a mistake and in my experience the number of authors making this one has increased drastically over the years making it even more relevant. Every time I see a character introduced with "[insert name] is smart and strong" but the story isn't showing me that at all just makes me want to put down that book.

[@azurehue2248]

As a young person (10th grade AP English.) I was forced to read Stephen Kings Memoir. In it, he says that adverbs should never be used. It affected me greatly to this day, to where when I write I still try to get around using an adverb, when sometimes it literally is the best word to use in the moment. A lot of "advice." is just personal style and I tend to ignore it unless it vibes with me. I tend to write in long, extensive sentences with short stops in between, and I know that is generally frowned upon, but I LIKE it.

[@LoisoPondohva]

Almost nothing you can construct natively in English comes close to some sentence structures of authors from other languages. Russian classics, for example. And they are translated 1-1 and are read in English, albeit not reaching the same level of popularity (that might just be the lack of cultural context. Drop might, I'm pretty sure that's it). So, long sentences all the way. As long as you want to. I'm pretty convinced that writing should be about the author more so than about the audience. It just feels forced otherwise.

[@wilsky5216]

The funniest part of this is, you can see in most of King's work the use of adverbs. They can be sparring in some stories, and heavier in others. He also says know what's in your toolbox. Adverbs are just another tool in the writing toolbox.

[@Bronze_Age_Sea_Person]

Sometimes adverbs should be replaced, because there are verbs that are "stronger", but others, the verb that encompasses the meaning of that adverb is so obscure, it sounds silly.

[@Bekindrewrite]

A professional editor I hired pushed "Save the Cat" on me. It was a version specifically adapted for novel-writing, but it has the same problems Brandon and Tim discussed with the Hero's Journey. It goes so far as to prescribe "At X% into the story, Y should happen." And even some of the examples it gives don't follow the structure like it claims. For instance, it says you have to establish an internal shortcoming for the hero early in the story (and overcoming this shortcoming is the theme). It says that in The Martian, Watney's internal goal is to conquer his fears. It's true that he gets scared, but it's not a central theme and he in no way has a shortcoming of cowardice. The theme of that book is using ingenuity and a positive attitude to survive -- which are two things Watney naturally has. It's a compelling story without the things Save the Cat claims it has (and claims every story needs).

[@CuteKiller313]

I just read that book a few weeks ago. It had some useful stuff. Ideas like "the emotional motivations should be so primal a caveman could understand them" and "write a logline summing up your protagonist, antagonist and their conflict with dramatic irony so you can tell the genre, setting and theme in one or two sentences, if you can't, try adjusting the story so you can" helped me iron out a lot of my shortcomings of overcomplicating everything. But the book is squarely aimed at writing the most mass appeal hollywood blockbuster you can. And of a type from the 90s where writing for big name actors was more important to making box office than writing for a franchise IP like it is now. The author goes out of his way to remind you not to do anything slightly non-mainstream like having too unlikable protagonists, too likable antagonists, too naturalistic dialog, a scene with characters only discussing the plot, any non-chronological storytelling (he dares you to debate him via email about Memento lol), even one scene with no conflict, have a story that changes the setting too much, ect. A lot of it isn't applicable to even mid budget hollywood movies never mind novels. Mostly just "four quadrant audience, big five studio, nine figure budget" movies 99.99999% of the readership will not be writing for. It works best as a "how the sausage is made in the mega factory" behind-the-curtain-pull rather than how to actually cook a sausage in your kitchen.

[@lai6551]

I liked save the cat because when I was trying to get writing advice on how to do a novel so much is focused on editing your work to take out adverbs or prose tips. What I needed was how to do the structure and what types of things should happen and when. The book has examples from things I’ve read so it was nice to see and have a better idea about how to go about writing and I was actually able to start vs getting frustrated and throwing out what I had. It’s obviously like all writing advice, you don’t have to follow it exactly but it’s a good rule of thumb that was really helpful

[@MartinMCade]

My initial impression of this video is that much writing advice is good, until it turns into "Always do this" or "never do this". In the case of the "Save the Cat" techniques (which I have not read), rather than say "Make Y happen at X% of the story," it might be better to say "Here are some stories where this happened, and why it worked in these stories."

[@TaylorReedHudson]

This is why I typically don't like these type of writing advice books. So many of them will propose some secret formula that every good story follows, and they'll have examples of stories that clearly don't follow their formula but they'll bend and twist them to an absurd degree to force them to fit it just so they can pretend they have this perfect universal structure for storytelling all figured out. It makes me cringe every time.

[@writerducky2589]

Kind of in a similar vein are writing craft books/articles that go "here's a wonderful excerpt that brilliantly illustrates the concept/tip/advice given in this section," and then the excerpt just... doesn't. Or maybe it would, but the effect is lost when that small piece of text gets taken out of context. Bonus points if they use their own work...

[@williamvesey3679]

I read a fair amount of screenwriting advice even though I'm writing a novel, and I really appreciated the "cut everything that doesn't move the story forward" (bad) advice. That's one I've been struggling with because my character development is a slow delicious burn. I will struggle no more and savor the journey.

[@visnoga5054]

I think I have the same issue, we need to keep in mind that novel writing is different. Even so, there is not only the plot, I've heard that the three pillars of the story are: the plot, the characters, the setting. I'd say this can be relevant in short stories because you have more "limited" space but for a novel, you can slow the pace sometimes. We have a chance to give our protagonists a hobby, an interest, even maybe a morning routine, in which case it might just be characterization, or to take a moment for a description of landscapes, in which case it's just serving the setting. I think so long as you don't drag things along too much (like I tend to do lol) there's nothing wrong with "filler scenes".

[@thereccher8746]

Cut your darling doesn't mean reduce your story to basic plot mechanics. Character development is part of the story. Problem is a lot of amateur writers think those long winded scenes they're writing is adding anything to the character growth when it's just eating up time.

[@ball3677]

​@@thereccher8746 shuddup. Punk.

[@dragonsandwarts5644]

For Brandon to be in the position he is, but still so open and honest and accessible is just a credit to how sweet and humble he is as a person. To even give this future guy this airspace is so great and it’s so incredible and just how Brandon is positive and gives so much back. When he doesn’t have to. So many people in Hollywood that are in the same position who don’t give any legs up to the newcomers. It not only helps the newcomers but fiction and fantasy in general and it’s just great.

[@KasonWhitsell]

My absolute favorite moments of Wheel of Time had nothing to do with the “plot”. Rand and Mat learning the flute and harp with Thom, Mat traveling with Tuon bringing her gifts, Perrin and Faiele having a dinner together. The training with Lan, history lessons with Loial, stones games, all of those things make the world feel like a well used book. The world feels lived in. It’s what makes epic fantasy the best genre to read

[@ricebix]

Yeah Wheel has something else about the way it feels. I've only read 6 books, took a break after 4, and when I returned on the 5th one I realised how much I actually missed it. There really is a depth to the world and characters that gets you invested and makes you want to experience more of it. Closest I've felt to being a kid and getting really into something like a video game or anime in a long time

[@BladeWinters]

I have never heard the "don't revise" one. My lack of self-confidence would not have allowed me to follow it anyway.

[@Meldon44]

I saw this sentiment ALL THE TIME on an old writing website I would post in. The buzz word there was "raw" -- the idea being that your best work is that which comes straight from your emotions, unfiltered by the rationalism and unburdened by the technical constraints introduced by revision. People there did not take suggestions for revision very well, acting like you were killing their emotional baby, so most comments were entirely sycophantic. Needless to say, I didn't stick around for too long.

[@josh34578]

29:58 The actual opening to Neuromancer: "The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel."

[@GutisFive]

Brandon and Tim together?? It's a dream video come true

[@chriscarmona7725]

Brandon Sanderson has a CHANNEL? How have I been a fan since ~2018 and just now finding this? Also, I love Tim! Thank you for the crossover!!

[@EcoExist-qs1ue]

When I was young and first heard the saying, “Write what you know,” I felt discouraged. Back then, I believed I didn't know anything. I grew up in the middle of nowhere. I had never traveled someplace exotic. I was friendless. I didn't even graduate high school. Now, I've come to realize that mindset for what it was misguided and untrue. I knew a lot of things then. I knew what it was to feel and hurt deeply. I knew that good and evil were not black and white and that morality was an entirely human concept, subject to debate. I experienced the weight of difficult decisions, faced the repercussions, and learned the true meaning of loss. Now, when I hear “write what you know,” I know it to be the truth. Capturing the raw, unbridled experience that is to be human and laying it all out on the table-the conflict within every single human heart.

[@dukeofdenver]

Show and Tell - A useful guide: TELL: Information that doesn't need evidence for the reader to be convinced by it. ("The man was tall and skinny" doesn't need persuasion to buy it. You can tell it, its fine.) TELL: Information when every character in a scene is supposed to already know a bit of information you have to tell your reader ("As you know..." type dialogue is cringe. Just tell.) TELL: POV characters internal introspection. That is the main advantage books have over film. Your book is not a movie. Use the advantage of the medium. TELL: The in-between moments that stitch together your key scenes (they walked here, they drove there) unless key plot moments occur in the in-between travel. Then SHOW) SHOW: Key character moments and key conflict moments or moments of change for the plot or your character.

[@j.b.5422]

but isn't as you know a form of telling already?

[@dukeofdenver]

@@j.b.5422 Dialogue can be doing both showing and telling. Showing by hinting at subtextual themes and relationship and character dynamics that are not expressly said . Or telling by straight up giving exposition. You are right. I think it's more accurate to say dialogue is a bad vehicle to do that particular kind of telling. You are correct.

[@powerthroughfocus]

Tyvm!

[@evelynn4273]

Show stuff that is interesting. Granted, the audience and the author may have different interests. Successful authors know what the audience is interested in and can show the audience things that they didn't know they were interested in. They don't take advantage of the goodwill of the audience.

[@joshuasims5421]

Exactly! Showing is powerful because if the reader is led to a conclusion on their own, they will believe it. Anywhere that isn’t needed or isn’t appropriate, just tell!

[@HaldirMark]

I know this is probably blasphemy, but I cracked up around the :30 mark, 'cause I actually only know of Brandon Sanderson because of Tim.

[@erinhand6004]

I can't remember if it was one of Tim's videos or Daniel Green's, but it was one of them talking about magic systems and Sanderson's laws that I first heard of Brandon Sanderson. Then I looked up Sanderson's laws on KZbin and came across his lecture series from 2016. Watched those (I believe in the fall of that year) and then got around to reading one of his books.

[@hannnnahhahhahha]

Same 😂

[@Prene16]

About the "said" trope... Thing is, when I speed read in my mind everything turns to "said" anyway 🤣

[@Creepsandwicheater]

I think one of the worst pieces of writing advice I've heard is "listen to fans". Like I've been a part of many a fanbase where the average fan that complains will give the worst suggestions showing they don't get even the basic themes of the story, or even understand the characters.

[@asaipuol]

Or they will outright contradict each other.

[@natalimoina]

Same here

[@BelleMort6]

As a child I *loved* to write stories. Now, at almost 40, I want to get back to it! It's so lovely that successful writers are so forthcoming with their thoughts on their craft. Thank you!

[@chriscockrell9495]

Chapters (0:00) - Introductions (1:39) - ShOw DoN'T TeLL and wrITe whAT YoU kNoW (7:28) - Said is DEAD (13:22) - You don't need discipline (16:46) - Characters have to be likable (21:11) - Rats with swords and terrible tips from professionals (26:02) - Everything has to be plot-relevant (30:57) - Never revise (35:10) - Ruin your characters LIVES (37:35) - Be more attractive (41:40) - It's the hero's journey or the highway He was a nervous person vs tapping his foot. I see 2 reasons for this preference. 1 you are creating a narrative or story and that his entertainment value. We remember narrative in a way that we can not remember dry facts. 2. A word has only the psychological meaning and definition that you ascribe to it. While I can say nervous and that will invoke meaning for the reader, you clearly communicate the meaning behind the word when you show action that convey what the word is meant to communicate. That communication was not told, it was shown in a way that the reader can make connections about the character according to their definitions of nervous, not the writer’s definition of nervous. Showing happens in time. Telling occurs without time, not a real time production.

[@douglashufnagel7424]

I will say that, while I know a lot of people prefer complex, morally gray characters, I vastly prefer likable and sympathetic characters. It's more personal preference than anything else.

[@kylelee9019]

Sometimes these can be the same character. No reason these traits have to be mutually exclusive.

[@douglashufnagel7424]

I know that's true, for sure, but I personally can't name many times I have read this and it works for me.

[@Creepsandwicheater]

Is it weird I am probably more sympathetic to characters that are morally grey? Idk something about seeing them make a decision that I could not so much logically justify as moral but would do myself. I like them more.

[@ninakrishnamurthy6674]

I think it depends on the kind of story you're telling. In a neo-noir type thriller, all the characters will be inherently morally gray at best, including your protagonist. As an example, I just finished reading The Ghosts of Belfast by Stuart Neville (great book, btw), and the protagonist of that book is arguably the villain even by the standards of the genre. And yet, he's very easy to root for even if we don't like him necessarily. By contrast, in something like Lord of the Rings, Sam's simple goodness is so powerful precisely because it would be so easy and understandable for him to succumb to despair. Tolkien's whole point- which he outright spells out in the books- is that simple acts of kindness, rather than grand feats of strength, are what truly defeats evil in the end.

[@user-sl2ng2hr1k]

Character's doesn't have to be all likable, but IMHO there has to be something about them that you find likable and want to relate to.

[@MannyBrum]

I think the "don't use said" advice is because some beginner writers put it after every bit of dialog. Rather than say "don't use it", it's more useful to let people know where it's appropriate and where it's not. It's just as bad reading something where there's 5 people talking to each other and you have no idea who is saying what.

[@venalleader2909]

My muse has never shown up when I am writing. Never. It's always when I am doing something else... working in the yard, driving to get some fast food, waking up in the morning. Even once when I was trying to fall asleep. I once literally had to crawl out of bed after midnight and write out an unexpected death scene for a character so I could go to sleep.

[@silver1021]

As a writer with tight, contracted deadlines, yes, do not ONLY write when the muse strikes. That's an excuse for procrastination, and you will never develop sustainable writing habits. But there are off writing days and there are that mood of magic, and if you have already finished your required chapter for the day, or your section for the week, but then you're going to bed hours later and everything just falls into place in your head suddenly and you can picture the exact dialogue... Yes, get up and write it. It won't be the same if you wait and try to copy it down tomorrow. Take the inspiration in the moment as much as you are able, because, at least for me, it has led to some of my favorite scenes, perfect endings of novels, etc.

[@valliyarnl]

Oh my GOSH the collab of the century!!

[@beatriceonbooks]

Couldn't agree more

[@johnnietrollker9519]

HelloFutureMe is how I discovered Cosmere in the first place. I am glad this happened and cannot wait to watch :)

[@mradan2093]

I've watched a few "worst writing advice" videos and this was the best by far. What other videos seem to be saying is, "I don't personally follow this, therefore it's bad advice." Even though it might be helpful for a lot of people. For this video, I liked how you went deeper and thought through the advice and what the original good intentions might have been. To add onto the "you don't need discipline" advice - I feel like that's not simply bad advice for professional writers. I come across hobbyists in art-related fields who are frustrated they never finish anything because they stop the moment it stops being fun. They chase hedonism without trying to find anything deeper. So the good-advice version would be something like, "Discipline in a creative field might not always be fun, but it will give you satisfaction, meaningful work, and a completed project."

[@ninakrishnamurthy6674]

Can't believe they talked about rats with swords and didn't mention Redwall ONCE! I've never even read Redwall, I just know it's about rats with swords!

[@malachilining2730]

Well it's mostly mice 🤓🤓🤓

[@Juananim8]

But they have swords too

[@p-47thunderbolt57]

Mice, squirrels, rabbits, badgers, otters, weasels, stoats, rats, a whole variety of woodland and woodland-ish animals. Delightful series, I love those books.

[@ninakrishnamurthy6674]

@@p-47thunderbolt57 What’s a stoat?

[@Juananim8]

@@p-47thunderbolt57 same!

[@trikebeatstrexnodiff]

Two of my favourite writers and youtubers ever- feeling so blessed for this video!

[@Skiddlescout]

This is a dream come true. I started watching Hello Future Me at the end of 7th grade, when Tim was under 40,000 subs i believe. 6, 6 and a half years ago. Later that year I started reading Sanderson because HFM taught me some things about reading I'd not been old enough to realize yet. These are the two biggest literary influences of my life together here

[@muriaal]

Mine too!!

[@thelaughingstormbornagain1297]

My jaw literally dropped seeing you two. What an excellent idea, bringing two creatives together for a wonderful chat.

[@guardianofthetoasters2323]

Before the video: oh perfect timing! I need some motivation and tips to keep going! 6 minutes in: ...great... just... great... man finding a balance is hard

[@moonbot7613]

Great timing. I’m 42 and currently outlining my first novel and need all the advice I can get.

[@khyrianstorms]

Just remember: with a healthy lifestyle, you can do another 42. You have all the time in the world. Just identify where you scale on the spectrum between architect and gardener and don't let outlining and character sheets, worldbuilding and other types of ideation wear down the actual writing. A year of efficient work can really make the difference.

[@moonbot7613]

@@khyrianstorms honestly, I outlined the first 8 chapters for a couple of months, sat down to write chapter 1 and crickets. Humbled me and here I am. Signed up for a Hugo House writing class to help me. Edit: I’m only high school educated

[@federicogiana7430]

​@@moonbot7613I'm 50, I've just finished my first short novel, which is not a standalone, but the introduction to a much longer series. I also have all the chapters outlined and mostly get crickets from my keyboard. What khyrianstorms said is golden, but as you seem to have similar problems to mine, I'd like to add what works for me (with the caveat that it may not work for you): - Don't waste your time watching advice videos on KZbin. This one is a rare gem, but usually the most they do is make me depressed. - Don't start at chapter 1. Write the part that comes to mind and then connect the parts. Then, when you have your first draft, rewrite everything from scratch to tie it all together more naturally. - Force yourself to write _something_ It's better to throw everything you've written this week in the bin than to spend a week staring at a blank page. Something will stick. - Don't expect your first book to be a masterpiece. It's your first attempt, just get it done, learn how it's done and move to your next one. All crafts are learned by doing. - This should go without saying but... Read read read. Find books with similar themes or plots, or authors with styles you like, and reread them over and over until you interiorize what they're doing.

[@bradypp]

@@moonbot7613 When you're first starting, it helps to expect that anything you write will probably be pretty bad because you have a lot to learn so there's no need to overthink it. I'd just approach it with excitement that you're finally writing your first novel and enjoy the process

[@Ruylopez778]

Here are some people I recommend for online learning (whether just watching their free interviews/lessons or paying for it) if I was starting from scratch. Glenn Gers (writing for screens channel: process, skills, tips) Ellen Brock (novel editor) Corey Mandell (great advice on process) Shannan E Johnson (The Professional Pen) Alan Watt (90 day screenplay) Ken Atchity (producer wth advice on mindset) KM Weiland Diane Callahan (Quotidian writer) Jack Grapes Adam Skelter Brandon also has the podcast Writing Excuses with hundreds of topics. In terms of books, Truby and McKee are both helpful in my opinion, because their advice is fairly universal, though YMMV. I would say they all have quality advice on par with Brandon. Most of the other channels on youtube (including big channels) just recycle the same tired ideas. Remember that "learning" and "research" and even "outlining" can also be a form of procrastination, though. There's no substitute for doing, over and over, just like any skill that takes practice and commitment.

[@WesleyPatterson-ph8pz]

ok, but "Deus Ex Wrench" is AMAZING and I am 100% stealing it LMAO

[@ephraimcullen]

Same! Except I'll call it by the other name he mentioned "Wrench ex Machina" because it makes a bit more sense to me

[@SchulzEricT]

I've been watching some chick's youtube channel where she dissects different ships in tv shows she watches, and this Deus Ex Wrench is so evident in ships, man. The "misunderstanding that would be solved by two or three sentences" that last the entire episode, even multiple episodes... it's fucking exhausting, man. And really hurts the characters involved too, because you're making them seem stupid and/or emotionally immature, you're regressing character and relationships simply for tension. And not even rewarding tension, it's exhausting tension. TV writers need that advice, man.

[@ChibiAccount]

What an awesome collaboration to see pop up in my feed! thank you both for doing this.

[@dlberker]

Speaking of opening lines, here's the best one ever... "Ash fell from the sky"

[@neatoburrito3170]

Ketchums's really getting in over his head.

[@mineton1293]

@@neatoburrito3170 He should never have blasted off like team rocket...

[@dummbobqqqqq]

Or the beginning of The Dark Tower: "The man in black went into the desert and the gunslinger followed."

[@abomidog]

@@dummbobqqqqq Fled across the desert. FLED ACROSS.

[@alexcoffey8804]

Szeth son son Valano, truthless of shinovar, wore white on the day he would kill a king.

[@NunyaBiznessss]

"I wanted to go beyond those first initial things that we were taught and go a bit deeper" and this is why you're one of my favorite writing teachers / essayists / writers, Tim. There's so much general advice we've all heard, but you get into the meat of things. The technical aspects of structure or prose or style or a million other micro things within those. I've gotten to experiment with so many things I'd never known about before. Thanks man :)

[@runningcommentary2125]

I feel called out, because I have planned out a series that features rats with swords.

[@tigretora1]

Then perhaps you should consider changing it to a story about swords with rats.

[@TheBookNerd2]

Seeing these two together is actually so cool. Thank you guys for being cool and discussing interesting ideas!

[@stephenberdos9319]

I'm reading the Stormlight Archive series for the first time. I'm nearly through Words of Radiance. This is a series I anticipate I'll enjoy re-reading and also it inspires me to check out more of the Cosmere. I've been going through some personal struggles with anxiety, and immersing myself in these books has been a healthy outlet for me. Thank you for the hard work and for the entertaining discussion. Enjoy your weekend.

[@angiep2229]

I remember a writing workshop I went to run by Margaret Weis. The first thing she did was write the word "said" on the dry erase board, and tell us to USE IT. There are some really hilarious ways I've seen people try to avoid the word "said." I've learned to try to trim down my dialogue tags wherever they're not strictly necessary, but "said" is perfectly valid now and then!

[@neasanicdhomhnaill7112]

Awesome video, guys. I was so excited when I saw Brandon and Tim together this morning... I knew I had to watch them. I agree completely, it's so easy to get consumed by all the writing rules and advice that you lose connection with your characters and story. I find it's great to learn the rules and then let them go - or let them resonate in the back of my head - and just write. Coming back to them in revisions is great too, but then it's about making choices as Brandon mentioned. I'm looking forward to seeing Brandon on HelloFutureMe 🙂

[@No8Named8Shadow]

Thank you! The first one makes me feel so valid. I have been fighting so many people I’ve shown my work to when their biggest critique is “Do you know the concept of show don’t tell?” Like, yes, but I can’t show 100% of the story. Plus, my influences are from older works where tell is important. So frustrating.

[@ryghpedersenwrites]

Well this was an absolute treat! I can honestly say that if it hadn't been for your classes and videos on KZbin (both Brandon and Tim), I would not have published my own epic fantasy books - still a work in progress but thank you nonetheless. Hearing your takes on these pieces of advice also made me feel better about not doing all of the 'shoulds' we are told we have to do in order to 'be a writer.' Can't wait to see Brandon on Tim's channel when that comes out.

[@quixotiq]

This is GOLD. Thanks guys ... from a newbie trying to work out where to fit all the principles we keep being given and how literally to understand them.

[@nors4331]

@HelloFutureMe, at 33:45 you talk about rewriting sentences even if they stay the same. I do this too! My whole revision process is to rewrite every sentence in 3-5 different ways, syntactically, all while trying to keep the same meaning of the sentence, or refine the meaning of the sentence, so that the tone of each fit the worldview of the story I am working on. Love this advice.

[@adamguthro6880]

There is no recipe, there is no measurement, just make the damn thing and roll between the hills of ego and ineptitude.

[@muriaal]

I've been waiting for this collab for a long time

[@bryceallen]

It’s wild to see these two creators that I’ve looked up to (at least in Tim’s case) since high school collaborate. Loved this video!

[@michaelvcelentano]

16:24 I am so happy to hear this!! It’s so vindicating because opera singers do the same thing. You can’t wait for the muse to strike and have a fantastic performance, you have to know how to work yourself into that place and know yourself well enough to know how to do it. Thank you!!

[@cobusvanderlinde6871]

I think there is actually a domain where "show don't tell" is frequently (not always) solid advice. Specifically in conveying unnarrated events (either events that precede the beginning of the story but do not warrant a flashback, or events that occur during a time jump). It doesn't feel good when we meet a new character and the hero's mentor (for example) suddenly tells us that the guy is not to be trusted; "he betrayed my trust." (or other executive summary of pre-existing character relationship) Much better for the mentor character to have a gnarly scar or a limp we've been wondering about, and suddenly the bad blood between the characters can be conveyed without having the mentor say the appropriate version of the above, and instead just say: "He's the reason I got the scar". or perhaps the traitor can catch a guilty look at the scar or the painful limp and say something like: "I didn't mean for things to end up like this for you." Doing it this way also means that the mentor character's backstory and the tense meeting with the traitor character can more easily appear in separate locations within the piece of writing. Similarly, I don't want a character tell me that he's trained his art for seven years alone on a mountain; no, show me calloused hands, worn out training clothes and training equipment, show me a montage, but don't just have a character claim to have undergone a radical transformation since the last time we saw him, without any visible sign of that transformation. As far as it concerns conveying a character's emotions, I think the good advice is actually worded "Let the character (rather than the narrator) tell/say (not necessarily through direct speech)" It should be obvious that there are very few situations wherein the narrator can chime in with "and then he felt sad" while keeping the writing compelling and effective. But a character can certainly say: "I am sad" or even, to closely parrot the narrator example above: "and now I feel sad." and a character can certainly shed tears, or can withdraw from the fellowship of his companions to grieve alone, or can rush to his companions for consolation.

[@cptstbd]

Just so we’re clear: That scene with bridge 4 *is* my favourite. They helped me begin to unchain myself from myself and for that, Mr. Sanderson, I’ll be eternally grateful.

[@lachdownproductionsyt]

I've been away from both these channels for a while but this was a blast! I've personally always had beef with "write what you know" I think it should be better described as "know what you write." You're the owner of your story and you should know your story, not because of some preestablished knowledge you posses but because you actually KNOW your content.

[@valliyarnl]

Loved your collab on Jazza’s channel!

[@SlothLinn]

Absolutely LOVE this collab ❤

[@alexr.3504]

30:54 I love this point. My final English major class was in fiction, but a screenwriting professor taught it. He was a great teacher, but it bugged me that everything I wrote needed to be faster. Sometimes, that was valid, but I shaved my pieces down SO much that they felt empty to me except for immediate action.

[@loganpauley7223]

Two of the most brilliant minds for storytelling, thank you for sharing your infinite wisdom 🙏

[@Lord_Brocktree]

Such encouragement lads! As a first time novel writer, this is makes me want to keep writing as much as I can. Which for me is at 5-5:30am to about 7:30am before everyone wakes up.

[@aurthurpendragon1015]

I think it's inherently easier to write interesting villains rather than heroes for two reasons. One, because nobody ever questions why the hero does what he does. Now a good author can make the reader question this, but without that force then it won't happen, it's just kind of taken for granted that heroes help people and fight villains. However, everyone questions why the villain does what he does. And the second reason is because, I think, deep down , we all identify with a villain on some level and want to root for them. Villains are our dark side, they represent a side of us that society tells us to repress, and so we love seeing that come to life in fiction.

[@LookADistarction]

I really, really, appreciate this conversation.

[@TheVioletWolf]

This is so validating, as ive had some of these internal arguments about tried and true advice .. i feel like its necessary to balance and to not use broad strokes.

[@lilrosetattoo]

What an awesome combo!!! I’ve listened to both of you for years when I started writing. Dream come true.

[@Linda-pc2qh]

Tim has an excellent speaking voice and has great material that makes listening to old videos worthwhile!

[@thecornerkid402]

Andrew Klavan once talked about life as a writer immediately after Star Wars released. Publishers, agents, and producers saw its success and heard Lucas talk about the Hero’s Journey and thought they had a roadmap to success. So every meeting or pitch he had after that led to, “so how does this follow the hero’s journey?” “Well… it doesn’t. It’s not that kind of story.” “Oh. Well then we’re not interested.”

[@hatezis]

This was a cool video, thank you. My heart is throbbing with excitment, as your words flow through my veins. I shout from the top of my lung in a silent way, not to disturb my neighbours, to whom once I lend a pot. Spear wielding spiders are occupying my balcony, I have to clean. I will be a better person once I return to this place.

[@jowilliam991]

I have a publisher interested in a book of mine. However, EVERY time I submit the manuscript, they come back with "show, don't tell", I know the difference. I can do it. I have been complimented by other well-known authors for some of my descriptive ability and my showing. So, I take the manuscript back, rework it, and re-submit. They say "show, don't tell." and send it back. My opening chapter has bloated to the point that some of my betas have looked at it and said, "Dude, this is way too long. Shorten it." This publisher is so dedicated to show, don't tell, that they are killing me.

[@steelstudio7374]

I appreciate that they are not perfectly in sync with one another. It shows that the episode is not heavily scripted and all discussion is live and reactions are pure and sincere.

[@palatonian9618]

So good, I forgot how much I love these

[@neiliusflavius]

I don't know how many talks about writing advice I have watched. I haven't written anything (fiction) since school and don't have any intention or desire to but still enjoyable to listen to.

[@douglasdaniel4504]

Heinlein's dictum to not revise was an echo of his days writing in the pulp era, where the most important thing a writer did was produce and submit, produce and submit, over and over again. Moreover, by the time he articulated it, the pulp era was over and conditions had changed, but I don't think he noticed because he could sell anything he put his name to.

[@zviherman8335]

love these writing-advice videos, more of these please!!!

[@BrookhousianNightmare]

18:00 or thereabouts OH GOD THE SCENE WITH THE PUPPY. That book was read to me when I was a small child and that scene lived in my head rent free for so long 😭

[@andeeharry]

Thanks for sharing, this is a great video, it does help a lot. The thing about ''writing what you know'' just limits you.. it only works in personal spaces if you are doing biographies or something...otherwise that advice will be thrown out and nothing would get done. It's the same with Show not tell. That sort of thing is reserved for screenwrites....books need show and tell. It is like doing a project in front of the class. You pick it, show it off and tell them about it, while going through the motions of everything. Yeah, this is a great video, just followed you on IG and Twitter.

[@lluviathewolfgirl]

"Rats with Swords" my mind went to Redwall right away, haha. Also, love your shirt Tim! Good video guys, thanks!

[@jkwarrior]

Can confirm... I loved the sections that focused heavily on bridge four. IN FACT, I would have loved getting even more so theres that...

[@PhoenixCrown]

Show vs Tell: If Brandon Sanderson is saying something takes a lot of words, you'd best believe him! My takeaway is to show things that are hugely impactful to the narrative and deserve a lot of time/words/attention and tell things that the reader needs to know but not dwell on. Thanks!

[@futurestoryteller]

He's not known for the vividness of his _prose,_ that's why in my comment I poked fun at the idea that he avoids showing, and that's why his books are so short. Actually the point of showing is elegance. If you pick the precise words to really hammer the "image" home, you don't need to do much more.

[@paulbrooks4395]

These are great. If you read any Graham McNeil or Dan Abnett in 40k, you can get a real sense for how to approach character interactions and introspection. They also write in different styles on purpose through different books. The later books of the Heresy series (the last three) are particularly complex and do things I've never seen before (such as extensive second-person perspective). Pat's book "The Slow Regard of Silent Things" is another uncommon work with prose that I personally liked.

[@dookieinapot]

This was the best thing I've seen on KZbin in years, thanks guys!

[@sixtofive]

Great discussion!!

[@nickmurdaugh9856]

16:26 I have this same relationship with coding. After it's done, I'm like, "How the hell did I write this??"

[@osheadavis]

Informative. Thanks. Although for me I chose to buy or not purchase stories based on character like-ability. It's a total deal breaker for me and stories.

[@Wouter_K]

A great conversation. So much fun to see your expertise. This gives another way to look at the books I"m reading. and OMG, I cannot imagine any serious person advicing to only write when the muse strikes. If its a bit of a hobby, sure. But all art is hard consistent work. I loved the advice I once got from one of the most prolific academics from the institute where I got my PhD. He told us, write at least 300 words each day, without exception. It does not matter if it is good. It will not be good every day, but it will structure your thinking and bring you that much closer to what you do want to write. I never did though, because I do not aspire to be a prolific academic or author 😅

[@--Sama-]

I like this kind of videos of you talking about advices.

[@_Amadeus14]

knowing now that spren are basically CGI effects adden in post, that's wild XD LOVE IT

[@agustinrovere2171]

Great video. Very very useful. Thanks a lot.

[@ekurisona663]

this was an awesome discussion

[@ASyler]

The amnesia in 24 cracks me up, followed up by the random mountain lion shot at the end of an episode when the daughter escaped a crazy guy's doomsday cabin. Good times. LOL

[@Cenitopius]

B: "In comics, they just shrink the text." T: "I wish we could do that! I wish we could!" I'm sure there are lots of limitations that make this difficult, but having read and loved Patrick Ness' Chaos Walking trilogy as a teen, I have to point out that you can do lots of great, interesting and imaginative things with how you present the text on the page that will have an enormous effect on the reader. In the Chaos Walking novels characters can hear each others' thoughts, and more to the point they can't not hear each others' thoughts if they're in close proximity and the thoughts are "loud" etc., so when Todd goes through crowded places he communicates this to us with entire pages covered in scrawled words spelling out the thoughts of the hundred or so people around him. Similarly, in Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, death always (I think always, anyway) speaks without speechmarks and in all-caps, which is sort of because he doesn't move his jaw and doesn't have lips and his voice just *is* in the heads of the characters nearby. If Pratchett and Ness can do it, you can too! Make your text tiny!