SuperHouse 45: First look at the new Shelly Pro 4PM

www.superhouse...
www.superhouse...
For years I've been running my home automation switchboards using "temporary" controllers using Ethernet-enabled Arduino boards controlling DIN-rail mounted relays. My hope was that some day, someone would release a DIN-rail mounted control system with wired connectivity.
And now, all these years later, Allterco have done it. The new Shelly Pro 4PM looks like exactly the device I've been waiting for.
SuperHouse:
www.superhouse.tv
/ superhousetv
/ superhousetv
Jonathan Oxer:
/ jonoxer
/ jonoxer
Support me on GitHub Sponsors or Patreon to receive exclusive discount codes, access to exclusive sections of the SuperHouse Discord, and early access to new episodes: www.superhouse...

[@Shelly_IoT]

AU/NZ certification will be done in next 4 weeks. Thanks for good review.

[@MrFlibblesAU]

Excellent :) Any news on Shelly Pro with dimming functionality?

[@Shelly_IoT]

@@MrFlibblesAU One by one :) we just launch the pro line

[@twodogsslc]

Keen for an update on 3EM certification too….

[@arvindhn036]

@@Shelly_IoT what about a din rail dimmer. Any solutions?

[@AfifAhmad]

Any update?

[@JD12ish]

I deeply appreciate how every video not only does a review of a product but also explains the core basics. Such a great channel 👍

[@damienseidel3547]

What a great product, fingers crossed the certification comes through soon.

[@AdrianKeevill]

Game changer! Really looking forward to this being certified!

[@RD-ni7qe]

I'm surprised there isn't a simple add-on expansion module for the Shelly Pro 4PM to give you more than 4 relay outputs (much like a normal PLC expansion module, where you typically have the 'brain' PLC module, and then you simply add-on more Input/Output modules if you need them).

[@FredrikRambris]

I was thinking the same. Like a thin serial connection between them. It is often already cramped in a switchboard, wiring a bunch of Ethernet and placing a switch there too might complicate things.

[@GeeTheBuilder]

What a, genuinely, amazing product. Brilliant. Please be available in the Uk 😬

[@Mrcaffinebean]

Shelly does such a great job with this stuff!

[@stevec.]

Here's hoping it gets the certification. I'd love a few of these in the house to help simplify the Home Assistant setup. Less mess. Keep us up to date if you can. Once this hits the NZ market, I'm all in too.

[@ralmslb]

As someone that has been using the Shelly Pro 4PM for several months now, Ive ran into 2 problems: 1) Channel 3 sometimes will simply have its power meter stop working, requiring a reboot of the 4PM. 2) it doesn't tolerate any sort of current spike. Normal breakers have a curve and allow very short bursts/spikes that go above its Amp rating. The Shelly will turn off the channel for any slight spike, such as a portable AC unit turning on (the compressor). Also big WARNING: Don't know why, but all 4 input load lines are shunted together, something I find really stupid and can be a deal breaker in some configurations.

[@gazgadgets]

Thanks Jon. These look like a game changer if they can get the OZ Certification. I've got 2 projects ready to go that I would use these for. Thanks for sharing.

[@orange_pi_video5926]

"Merci" from Paris for you video. I will buy it tonight.

[@PhilParadis]

Can these be connected together and controlled via a single Ethernet link? Seems rather silly to need a separate Ethernet connection into the box for every four circuits. Can you get a certified DIN switch that would fit in the rail along with these?

[@BenHoughton]

The simplest way to me would be a DIN-mounted managed/unmanaged switch in the same box. They exist but are mainly for industrial applications so I wouldn't say they are widely available

[@sumitbirla5895]

Have you looked at the Siemens LOGO! line of PLC's? They can pretty much do the same, but in addition can also run logic locally on the PLC itself. They also have expansion modules to increase the number of relay outputs.

[@BobHannent]

I have some ELC PLCs which are essentially good Siemens LOGO clones, but from a connectivity point of view they are a little behind the times. Modbus and the like aren't as easy to integrate into modern systems. I'll be replacing them with the Shelly modules which are much cheaper overall and provide that connectivity. It would be nice if there was some scripting on the Shelly Pro but I can make do.

[@Tntdruid]

My new house got Shelly all over from the start, so nice to use in HA :)

[@ChristopheVersieux]

What's the point having all the lines connected together, I was expecting to monitor 4 * 16A lines with their own breaker.

[@HiltonT69]

Looks like a really functional and well thought out product. Cert it and it will sell rather well...

[@andydix6243]

Ok so that's the product we've all been waiting for! I'm in the UK and I've found it on a UK site for £74.99 ($103.78 USD $141.71 AUD). They are out of stock though so it's either not yet available or there's quite a demand. And no wonder when it does what it does. Excellent find and info Jon. Thanks.

[@BrianSimmons]

That's a really good price considering it controls 4 loads and has all the features(like power monitoring) built in. That's about $25 USD per load which is only marginally higher than using various wifi switches that are currently available. It's certainly cheaper than using switches with other protocols (like zigbee, etc).

[@andydix6243]

@@BrianSimmons agreed. The Shelly UK site lists them as £79.99 and available to pre order so they aren't actually available until October. Would be a fair amount for an entire house especially if you also decided to do the sockets through them too but for the ease and features alone they are probably worth the spend. Just wondering what use Bluetooth would be though. The distance Bluetooth works over wouldn't be much use for me unless I'm stood right next to the supply board 😂

[@lemd49]

In Europe we are all DIN rail since decades. Have a growing bunch of shellies (as my sonoff PSU go dead over time) but no sp4pm as yet. Question: after migrating to the sp4pm what is your idea for the local control physical switches?

[@Pete90]

Another cool thing to spend money on. Once certification's done i think i know what home automation i might be getting.

[@vk3fbab]

Looks awesome. The only certification question I have is how do you install the ethernet cable and comply with AS S009? Maybe if they had a conduit gland you might comply. AS S009 stipulates separation requirements for communications cables and LV power. These distances increase when there are terminations involved.

[@SuperHouseTV]

This is the big question in my mind, too. C-Bus manages to have comms cables physically in proximity to LV cables, and to be honest I don't know how it complies but somehow that's the way they do it.

[@bonicb11b3]

Any cat5 cable can be used for cbus however only the pink cables can go in a distribution panel as they have mains rated shielding. Clipsal had also open sourced thier protocols and drivers. There are several projects to add mqtt using their serial and ethernet interfaces.

[@johnschroeder3072]

@@SuperHouseTV Clipsal use mains rated sheathing on their cat cable and position their connections appropriately too.

[@markwatson5827]

Fantastic thanks. Can I assume you've had to run a single individual cable from the fuseboard to every individual power socket so they can all be controlled individually rather than the typical daisy-chained circuits we commonly see in house (which obviously saves a lot of $$$ on cable)? And therefore, you've done the same with every single light socket being wired individually back to the fuseboard?? I'm just thinking of the implications to the amount of cable required for a true star configuration.

[@dennisolsson3119]

(Edit: removed paragraph about easier protocol when I saw that this one uses a newer protocol.) I fell in love with the Shelly echo system about a year ago and this is a welcome addition.... Although a bit pricey (Shelly1PM is about 75% of the cost per channel), I do appreciate the Ethernet port.

[@engdarfatgalalyelectrical1076]

New and useful information

[@AdamW-c2m]

I want to use something like this for energy management eg if the solar is producing, run the ac. Would this allow something like that ?

[@carmisergio]

Do you think they plan on making triac dimmers in the same form factor? I'm currently running DMX dimmers with a custom interface layer with Home Assistant, but a ready-made product would be amazing...

[@DeKempster]

Shelly is the way to go, about the only company that get how local stuff should be.

[@4lilpigs]

thanks for the Video, do you know if they have been certified for use in austalia yet

[@anandhaponnampalam]

Hi there, I was wondering if the manual switches work regardless? For me, when I turn off the light / line using the Shelly app (the relay), I need to turn the manual switch on and off again for it to work. Have I was wondering if I am doing something wrong? Help.

[@kmajohan]

Great review. If they have certification, they will sell gazillions of these here in AUS.

[@WVMbe]

Great video!

[@billysgeo]

But with Shelly and Sonoff modules you can still control your lights when the WIFI is down via the physical buttons

[@mynkow]

I am connecting a 4 way push button switch from the room to the Shelly in the switch board (10 meters away). How thick the cable should be? Is 1mm(2) an overkill for this?

[@BobHannent]

Pre-Ordered two in the UK, one thing that is disappointing, it looks like you have to use mains electricity for the switched inputs. I get why you'd do that but I like the idea of using LV switching instead of higher voltages, where possible.

[@BobHannent]

FYI, Just received an email from Shelly/Allterco Robotics saying that the delivery of my pre-order will be delayed by 10 days. Not worried, but thought I would share.

[@Randomguy_1911]

Shelly NEXT-GEN Devices LIVE Launch Stream on 15 September 2021, 19.30 CET. Maybe there will be some products that you wil also find interesting.

[@tcass]

Quick question Jonathon: How would you wire your momentary switches up to be the assignable light switches using these instead of your Arduino controller?

[@rodstephens6612]

The 'S' connections on the bottom edge of the Shelly (beside the neutral connection) are the 1-4 switches

[@ionciubotaru]

Please open the case and share with us what components did they use. ESP32 maybe, the relay's quality ....

[@andyburns]

Shelly website confirms ESP32

[@jensschroder8214]

Shelly Pro 4PM can only be used for 1 phase (hot wire). It is not suitable for split phase or three-phase current ! If you connect large inductive loads like motors then the Shelly will burn up internally. This also applies if you connect a large contactor. It is really only suitable for household lighting.

[@Dr.Stacker]

They have a shelly pro 3 for that

[@thegeck0388]

BTW this DIN-rails (DIN = Deutsches Institut für Normung, German institute of norms) are here in Germany called „Hutschiene“ „hat rail“

[@johnolin6474]

It seems like having the Shelly at the switch would be more reliable - that way the switch will always work (even if your network goes down)? It seems like the Pro Series is more for commercial type uses?

[@mrxmry3264]

that thing is nice for switched loads but is there a version that can not only switch on and off but control the output power? if my numbers come up, i don't want my lights to be on or off, i want to be able to control the brightness.

[@relwaretep]

Hello Jon!!!

[@SuperHouseTV]

Hey Peter!

[@relwaretep]

@@SuperHouseTV great video mate

[@50sidu]

what is the max duration available in auto-off timer

[@MrRoma70]

Being looking at the company for a little while, but still lacking the ability to set up itching mode or I could not find it on the 4PM I purchased.

[@ventsislavvangelov9193]

Hi, great video. Is it possible to control 12v or 24v devices?

[@newby2224]

Hi thanks again great video...Im Australian living in France. Can I ask a question does anyone make a device like this to protect electronics when we get a power surge? In France often the power will go off and come back on very fast....sometimes this is continuous. thanks again

[@EastLondonKiwi]

Hi Jonathan. I am a big fan of Shelly devices and I'll have one of these relays soon. One concern I have with the LAN function it how safe is it. For example if you house gets hit by lightening and the device fails. How likely is it that 240vs get sent down the LAN cable straight into the low voltage side of your switch or router?. Other than this worry. I think its an awsome peice of kit.

[@Ender_Wiggin]

Why did you not show a diagram of star topology! the was the only thing miss from this great video

[@roadeycarl]

I'm really interested to see what relays are inside it.... and generally what is inside it. You must be tempted too?! Go on, take it apart and have a look :0)

[@jeroenvandend]

it snaps open pretty easily :) what do you want to know :D

[@roadeycarl]

@@jeroenvandend A general look around would be cool but I am especially interested in the relays!

[@jeroenvandend]

@@roadeycarl HF32FV-16 is noted on them

[@roadeycarl]

@@jeroenvandend Thanks very much!

[@Great_XicoZe]

Great channel! One question: when power off to on, what are the status for all 4 relay? The same when off?

[@markgilbert249]

How much do you trust the No Cloud option? Do you think they report back at all?

[@matthewgladwell1026]

Depending on ya network setup, firewall it or put on internal only subnet, or even in the static settings set a invaild gateway, if it lets you.

[@markgilbert249]

@@matthewgladwell1026 I would rather flash it with a opensource firmware if one existed for it. I be Tasmota/ESPHome won't work with this. If it did, it would be wonderfull!

[@matthewgladwell1026]

@@markgilbert249 yep same here esphome is what I use in home assistant and would prefer that too.

[@pulporock]

Very interesting Any idea the cost to get the product Certified in Oz? I think Control 4 is now bigger in Oz the CBus. Certainly been my experience in new house builds around Southern Highlands NSW. Great explaination

[@vimalori9628]

I love the idea of ethernet but how does that perform in a live scenario with multiple 4pm on a din rail with loads of power cables running side by side the ethernet cables? Isn't there any EM induction that would dampen the ethernet performance?

[@jkelectrical]

Very cool.

[@gilliu90]

One thing that would be good to talk about is how to control these from aspect of the standard light switch for full local control. Does it have a digital input or is it all ethernet based? I personally use KNX but the advantage of this type of system (referring to Cbus too) is that as long as there is power to the house, all light switches will still work as the light switches are powered and communicate over the same bus as the relays.

[@SuperHouseTV]

I'll probably cover that in a future video. It has support for both toggle switch input and button input, and the mode can be reconfigured via MQTT. With an external switch connected, it will work entirely locally without even a network connection.

[@gilliu90]

@@SuperHouseTV Thanks for the quick reply - that sounds great.

[@mrabasel]

Thanks for a great video. Do you know if this this certified for NZ?

[@MalcolmAber]

Does this mean that we dont need normal electricity switches? Usually I put in the relay after the electricity switch, leave that on and then control everything from either HA or the native application itself. Thanks and very informative video, keep it up

[@jkelectrical]

It should be legal to use those to switch 24v relays, you would still have the same, if not more devices, but you gain the control and only require an additional box to install them. It would also be easy to remove the relays once the certification comes through.

[@SuperHouseTV]

That's a clever idea

[@franerich]

Hi Jon, Can you recommend a higher amp smart switch/power monitor? i.e. 40A

[@hardergm]

Great, clear presentation of a great product. Any cost info in AUD?

[@SuperHouseTV]

Not yet. My guess is it will be somewhere above $100, but I don't know how much.

[@GeeTheBuilder]

£75 here in the Uk

[@NovaConsultants]

I just paid $126 NZD including shipping to pre-order one

[@WVMbe]

Hi Jon, two years have passed. Did they pass certification? And have you installed them? I have bought a number of them after this video, but am based in EU. I still need to install them so a followup might be nice. I do see a lot of negative comments about them lately. In my opinion they generally are about the way how the neutral is shared and incorrect use by overloading them. But if you can't use it anyway it might be an idea to open one on a live stream and give your thoughts about the design.

[@SuperHouseTV]

They've passed AU certification, and I had one installed at the lab just last week. The electrician was initially stumped because it's installed inside the switchboard and conceptually he thought it was a device to control 4 circuits, and the common neutral messed up his plan for how to install the RCD. But once he understood that it's not 4 circuits, it's 1 circuit controlling 4 loads, he was fine. I think the reason people complain is they don't understand what its purpose is.

[@WVMbe]

@@SuperHouseTV That is exactly what it is: one circuit, 4 loads. I think the misunderstanding comes from the way how Shelly puts the product on the market. As your electrician I think many people understand it as 4 separate circuits indeed.

[@NotTheRealRyan]

That looks awesome, but my trust in Shelly was diminished given how hot they got with only a small load. 80C + with a 10W load, couldn't trust that temperature inside the wall, I really wanted to like them and replace some of the zwave. Hopefully this will redeem my faith in Shelly as there should be better thermal control looking at the DIN size.

[@julianelpro5513]

very awesome! I recently bought a bunch of sonoff T2. My wife like the touch feature hehe. So here is the question. Would you recommend having T2 and 4PM working together?

[@lsav1085]

Awesome

[@duncanx99]

Thinking out loud... If the Pro4 PM had POE, it wouldn't need the Neutral and that could be useful... Obviously a different internal board and model number...

[@TradieTrev]

I'd rather have NC NO contacts than wasted terminals IMO.

[@juliannesermon8057]

The fact that it has ethernet makes it worth considering. So far, the "WiFi only" aspect has kept me from using Shelly products in any real world setup. Now all that's missing is trailing edge dimmers, because at least in my area, those are still quite relevant.

[@jeroenvandend]

dimmer pro has been announced so hopefully it turns out good

[@tonydunne6985]

Great video how would you wire this with a wall switch still in place

[@SuperHouseTV]

There are screw terminals on the bottom of the Shelly for connection to wall switches. I didn't show how to wire them up in this video, but I'll probably do that in future.

[@alexgill2154]

@@SuperHouseTV Perhaps still an advantage over what you've described as 'retrofitting wireless relays' is related to his point about wall switches -- no new wire run needed fr the wall switches back to the panel for the interrupter/switches to function ...as it would be guessing from your reply above. I really like your cadence of speech. Quality content -- thanks!

[@Etacovda63]

Alex Gill wall switches are typically not run back to the board individually

[@jkelectrical]

Is the Ethernet cable rated at mains voltage?

[@SuperHouseTV]

That's a critical point. I talked about that in my livestream where I first connected this up, but I didn't cover it here. Cable inside the switchboard has to meet AU/NZ standards in terms of insulation and separation, so it'll be interesting to see what Allterco recommend. One of the reasons that C-Bus control cable is specifically certified is that it's intended to run inside switchboards.

[@vk3fbab]

@@SuperHouseTV I think Clipsal got around this by having a mains rated sheath on their otherwise pink CAT 5e cable. That said there are some Schneider electric power monitoring units I have ethernet as well. They've got certs for Australia. Maybe they don't care about S009 like most installers.

[@johnolin6474]

Super cool. Love Shelly. Quick Question: I guess the load is limited to something like 15/20 amps?

[@WVMbe]

4 outputs, 16A each. Total device maximum of 40A

[@DavidTelesPortugal]

And Shelly will release new din rail mounted devices today in a few hours

[@rklauco]

Your dashboard implementation in NodeRed has a bit of a problem - if you do manual control, or you switch it using website, your NodeRed dashboard will not reflect it. Better solution would be to feed the control in NodeRed from status update of the MQTT message, generate the message upon click (but don't change the status of the control) and the control status will be updated once the Shelly 4PM "confirms" the new status. The rest of your video is perfect, I am subscribing and looking forward to more content from you.

[@SuperHouseTV]

Good tip Robert! Thankyou

[@jakob6228]

What about dimming lights?

[@daromee]

So expensive for a little more control .I prefer a Sonoff 4 channel system or single automated breakers as they are so much cheaper and offer you only a little less .For me I prefer to set up once and reprogram only if I need to change on/off times which is not so often.This Shelly unit looks great but in a three phased circuit board you might need four or more of these ,$400 US from Ali ,ouch .Again I prefer single units which can be installed one by one ,cost about $20 each and fit my style .Nice review very detailed

[@kimberlyjacobsen4148]

Why wait? Is your current installation is not certified? And if they get it you win 🥰

[@DustinWill]

vertically ***horizontally***. Just a little poke. Love the work you do Jon.

[@andrewruthven41]

I had thought that as well, then I realised he was going from flat on the bench to vertically on an imaginary wall.

[@klint76]

And still no dimmer..😭

[@elektrikman8834]

you are obviously well versed in programming and such. I am a retired professional electrician y interest in home automation is retro fitting various things around my home ,the largest is my pool pump, and associated heat pump ,mainly when im away from home . The other things are outside lighting I live real and the need to turn on lighting when I pull into my drive way or some one else does I need the lights to come on ,as well as when the leave my doorstep so that my steps and such are illuminated , I do this now with a series of motion sensors and smart plugs ,but is getting a bit overwhelming with two or three different hubs and devices that do not work together . Do you thing a system like this could minimize all that clutter? I also have two remote buildings one that is both heated and air conditioned . I have both wifi and ethernet at both my main home a one remote bldg.I just need simple control with power metering so I know things are on. I really do not know much about MQTT programing ,which you seem to ,in your opinion do you think these devices will work for me?

[@danieldevlin5110]

Are you familiar with PLC's at all?

[@elektrikman8834]

@@danieldevlin5110 yes worked with them when I was at Johnson control

[@SoundboundOfficial]

The complete and utter lack of phase rail support is a bummer. You're basically forced to cramp your box with a whole bunch of wires. The 4W power rating is also way too high for my taste.

[@DodgyBrothersEngineering]

By "works out of the box" I assume you mean after you fumble around in the dark for a few hours trying to work out the MQTT commands lol. The good thing is the pre fumble has now been done for us. Happy days.

[@walker68020]

Supper

[@200501012]

Can you go more into how you'd also add a dumb switch to that's Shelley setup? For the dumber people in my home who wont adapt 🙈

[@justbroome]

this is my question as well.

[@Cptnbond]

With all these small cheap Chinese microcontrollers built into these devices, I'm worried about making the whole house susceptible to voltage surges, e.g., a nearby lightning strike. That would ruin the day and all equipment. This issue is widespread in the sailing community, who see their boat electrical installation wrecked. Good episode, though. Cheers.

[@nemisis010]

I wish we could replace all the Clipsal garbage with these, let hope certification goes through.

[@damienseidel3547]

Whats the legality of removing a switch in Australia?

[@gavinjackson2761]

I'm guessing that if your not an electrician in Australia, don't touch anything mains. This video needs a waem and friendly-" For informational purposes only- do not try this at home - ever." Message

[@AndrewDanne]

My understanding is, anything that is hardwired or in a structural enclosure (wall, switch board) you have to be licensed to modify. Unlike in New Zealand.

[@SuperHouseTV]

If you're not a licensed electrician, you can't. I may have done a rant about that ;-) www.superhouse.tv/vlog-63-australia-worst-place-in-the-world-for-diy-home-automation/

[@damienseidel3547]

@@SuperHouseTV yeah completely get that (and had a laugh at your linked vid a few weeks back), however I had heard somewhere that to meet the wiring standards, every light/power circuit has to have a physical isolation switch in Aus.

[@Spinafication]

@@SuperHouseTV So looking at this video, it's clear that you are a licensed Electrician? Otherwise you would be breaking your local state laws in this video?

[@IanScottJohnston]

Thumbnail......looks like you're trying to saw off your ear with that top hat rail.

[@rsg7221]

I think I still prefer P5 Automation

[@Onlyindianpj]

So long for a video I watch videos instead of live

[@Banjoba]

The thumbnail.

[@TheCelticbeast]

Aus Certified? TBA.

[@SuperHouseTV]

Not yet, but I hope they will be soon. Allterco are one of the few overseas companies that take AU/NZ certification seriously.

[@maxg4958]

It looks like it costs 80EUR or some 130AUD...

[@beicel]

Don't get me wrong, but whit this "presentation/advertisement of Shelly" you basically "shit" on your whole work you did regarding your own home automation!

[@andyburns]

Maybe, but the reason people feel they have to go the DIY route is when products available don't fit the requirements, this looks like it fits many people's, if only they had a DIN real dimmer too ...

[@kdiggerbr]

Sorry, but this is stupid product. Every electrician knows that they wire a lot of lights to the same circuits. This would turn lights off in half of the house rather than controlling individual lights like a sonoff. It will be a hassle to integrate such a device in any house that was wired before year 2010.

[@thecookeman]

He said new builds, smaller projects are also fine.