How to 𝗣𝗿𝗼𝗱𝘂𝗰𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲𝗹𝘆 Complain About Game Balance

Can you believe that they're saying "This character broke frfr on god take away their buttons" is not a valuable bit of feedback?
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streamed Aug. 2, 2022
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#FGC #Sajam #GGST #DNF #Runeterra

[@FGCErrorRick]

"Hey Doc, there's this little kid that got added this DBFZ game and yeah, I'm gonna need you to break his knees. Thanks for fixing my game, peace out like and subscribe."

[@meethepie]

Doctor named Android 21 (Lab Coat):

[@bageltoo]

@@meethepie “Wahltah, put your patch notes away wahltah”

[@AlmostOmniscient]

Heard joke once: a Strive player goes to Daisuke. Says he's depressed. Says the Tower seems harsh and cruel and he's stuck on Floor 7. Says he feels all alone in a threatening game where mixups that lie ahead are ambiguous and unreactable. Daisuke says, "Treatment is simple. Ram is a non-dlc character. Go play her in the Tower. That should pick you up." The player bursts into tears. Says, "But Daisuke...I am a Ram main."

[@sheipi9978]

"Treatment is simple, get good"

[@TheManWithNoHands]

A yes, Pagliacci

[@Dhamphyre]

lmfao

[@lvl3-wizard81]

Good joke, Everybody laugh

[@chillaxboi2109]

People in floor 7 catching strays as if someone of their skill level comprises of the FGC.

[@MikeScarbro]

As a full-stack dev, getting good feedback from clients is like pulling teeth. Everyone wants to tell you their idea for how to write the app, but nobody takes the time to describe the actual problems they’re having. I feel bad for game devs who have to sift through legions of screaming twelve-year-olds to get to the valuable pieces of feedback.

[@DANCERcow]

Twelve year olds? More like 20+ year olds!

[@mickeybat5816]

It's kinda like trying to get editing from someone who hasn't written anything before. Like on a base level they can tell you if there is something they don't like, but when it comes to explaining how to fix it they start to falter. Difference between writting a story and making something like a fighting game, is that with a fighting game there is some level of "Figure it out stupid". Some matchups are purposefully designed to be the way that they are, take zoners vs grapplers. It's intricate in how things interact. So it's naturally going to be crazy hard to find good criticisms without having to revamp entire interactions. On top of that, listening to only pro players will get you so far yk? It's weird trying to make a game lol

[@scozzbaggs9224]

@@ckorp666 it is and it should be

[@Count_Virgil]

@@mickeybat5816 Honestly, it's only weird trying to make a game, cause people are weird. Back in the day (I'm 30+) the games released they way they were, and that was it. And like all technological advances, it's a double-sided sword to have the tech that allows people to communicate. In the old day, you couldn't get your game fixed or balanced, but was it tested much more extensively cause the rate at which it would be consumed was WAY lower. Now games have to produce content every 2-3 months for fear of losing relevance, and test teams can't compete with the MASS amount of people will consume their product today. All of that is to say, Sheer number of people who complain about your product is significantly higher, and everyone wants to play the version of the game that suits them. Because we live in a world where the game -can- be changed at anytime, that means the average joe thinks it -should- be changed at any time, and there's a huge disconnect with that mentality. The feedback a dev can get now is just as destructive as it can be helpful, and this is a pandora's box when it comes to people's thoughts and opinions. Now that it's open, there's no closing it.

[@why7868]

That's cause people disguise feature requests as bugs.

[@CanalBillCast]

"Players are good finding problems, but terrible giving solutions!"

[@gengarisnotinsmash...]

Rather, the opposite. Players are making tons of solutions, but never identifying the actual problem.

[@meethepie]

@@gengarisnotinsmash... Both? both. Both is good.

[@mickeybat5816]

@@gengarisnotinsmash... Nahhh they definitely find a lot of problems lol. A vast majority of players don't really know how to balance a game, because a vast majority of them aren't game devs. Lol not hating tho

[@RamielLilith]

That's why devs get paid. Some just there for the check.

[@basketballer2294]

A part of the problem is that developers need to facilitate these "doctor visits" where players feel their feedback is being heard and will lead to actual changes. Most places where you'll read feedback is really built to be communication between player and player, not player and developer, and therefore not made to be useful to developers.

[@Lilybun]

100% agree. Its immensely frustrating to hear developers repeat "we hear you" yet there's no communication between the devs and the community on official forums, social media or anything like that. I wish more games used the post-game feedback surveys riot does, sure its probably placebo but at least you know they asked for your input so its way less frustrating to spend time writing feedback.

[@dismasthepenitent569]

Darkest Dungeon 2 has a really good approach to this. There's a channel in the official DD2 discord where players can give feedback and other members can vote those pieces of feedback up or down. If a player's suggestion makes it into the game they even mark it in the patch notes as coming from the community. Then again DD2 is an indie game from a much smaller studio than ASW so direct contact between players and developers is easier but it's still a very good model to go off of.

[@kriterer]

I think most games that don't make their playerbase feel listened to in regards to updates have playerbases which like to prescribe the changes they want instead of describing the issues they have. At least, that's always the case when I hear my little brother complain about how the game he's playing isn't balanced and then go on to say they should remove everything that kills him.

[@ahalfemptyscarecrow5277]

The KI doc had something about this. IG were talking about how every piece of feedback was that Jago healing needed nerfed. They announced they were nerfing wind kick instead and a bunch of people complained that that wasn't the problem, that wasn't what needed fixed. After the update, people kind of stopped complaining about Jago healing, cause it turns out the original move wasn't the problem, but the versatility wind kick gave him. The players misdiagnosed the problem, and instead of explaining what they were having trouble with, they just jumped straight to how THEY thought it needed to be fixed.

[@vaderwalks]

I was going to mention this, it's an eternally relevant example.

[@bb010g]

The XY problem!

[@ddranimestyle]

My favorite example of this will always be Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3. After a full year of Wesker dominating Vanilla MvC3, and everyone complaining about how broken he was, the ONLY change he got was a BUFF. A random one too (taking off glasses gives him a boost lmao). Everyone got so pissed off, then... no one ever played Wesker again. Vergil redefined the game and suddenly even a better version of Wesker wasn't good enough anymore. Then again, they also omega nerfed Sentinel around the same time everyone learned how to play against him. Feels bad.

[@Sorrelhas]

Pro players are guilty of this shit too, they're just better at making it seem like they know wtf they're talking about lmao

[@DuvJones]

Oh very, in the FGC it's been a well-documented issue. Their is always a dichotomy between Pro-Players and every one else that every developer has to deal with. It's not as easy as it sounds.

[@Kool212]

It's easy to mistake confidence for competence.

[@Sorrelhas]

@@Kool212 Any lie said with enough confidence becomes the truth Leffen once convinced a woman he was Kevin Costner, and it worked because he believed it

[@medicfdumbo]

punkdagod vibes

[@Goomenstein]

Pro players can be like backalley surgeons trying to get your money rather than trying to make you feel better. When you get to top level its easy to feel entitled to your playstyle while dismissing any counterplay as dishonest, unbalanced or scrubby.

[@ApexGale]

Trying to sift through the MBTL discourse to discuss the pros and cons of shield is some of the most excruciating shit I've ever had to read through.

[@masterfrostino447x]

Yeah, even as someone who was playing the game, hearing all the annoyance of shield without knowing the reasoning behind that was so confusing, especially when everyone wanted to point out different things that was "wrong" with it. Don't even get me started on Moon Drive and Moon Skills

[@ApexGale]

@@masterfrostino447x It was like: "Shield is too strong." Okay, what about it is too strong? Does it make you feel like you don't have options when the enemy shields your hits? Does it invalidate your game plan? What is it about shield itself that is inherently strong? Is it the followups? Maybe that's less about shield being strong and more about you not knowing how to play around your enemy shielding? "Shield is just broken there isn't any downside to it" Word.

[@nhall129]

This is such a good post for people feeling out GGST surveys becuz you can actually see this mentality in GGST patch notes They always point to how the players were feeling, why they felt that way, and how they remedied that, so that it feels better

[@rinarina6247]

No less than Mark Rosewater himself once said “your audience is good at identifying problems and bad at solving them”

[@Josukegaming]

Man as someone who got into LoR from Sajam's reccomendation, it's so dope seeing LoR stuff be referenced in fighting game content. Both some of my absolute favorite games

[@RacingSnails64]

Always love your calm rational takes... Good talks. Sometimes the answer isn't to nerf an option, you just need better options to counter their option.

[@themancalledben2731]

MK11 Liu Kang's f4: they asked for the startup to be nerfed, which NRS did, when the problem was and still is the quick recovery and minimal pushback at the end of the string that allows it to be looped into another quick mid...WHICH HE HAS. So what happened is they nerfed the startup of his ONLY forward advancing normal so it can't be looped, also making it more risky to throw out in neutral and thats pretty much it when you know the character. I never used to loop ppl in that string before but after the nerf ruining some combos that used to be really consistent (the only time I really used f4 personally) now I loop ppl just because most assume I can't anymore. Tldr: stop getting my mains nerfed preemptively.

[@nocct41724]

There are researchers, designers, and developers who's careers involve funneling through bullshit complaints, figuring out what's actually wrong, and building solutions for those problems. It's a required skill for many nowadays. So thank you to the 5% of people that will actually practice what's being said in this video, and thank you to the 95% who will will forget by tomorrow and will be the reason many people keep their jobs. It seems easy, but is honestly far too much to ask of the average player.

[@El-Burrito]

When I describe my symptoms to my doctor they're always like "what the hell do you want me to do about it?!" but I like the analogy

[@gwen9939]

fr though, I want these game devs as my private physician if they're this good at listening. Meanwhile: "doc, I've have a migraine for 5 days straight, my neck is killing me, I'm seeing double, and I'm bleeding out of my left ear". The doc: "have you been under stress lately?"

[@TheBanimal]

The problem is that so many people don't know what feels bad about the match up other than they lost and read on Twitter that the character is good so jump to the conclusion it wasn't their fault. Off topic but what Sajam said at the end about Injustice 1&2 are the reasons I hate them so much. I've never played a game where losing felt that bad on top of winning feeling unsatisfying.

[@CaptinSpyke]

All I can say is that I wish Sol was given more flexibility and freedom in his kit and that he wasn't funneled so hard into clean hit DP routing by his changes each patch. I don't mind if that comes with nerfing dp and diversifying the power back to his other options or just by small increments that make more of his options feel meaningful in my decision making processes, be it moves that have no real usage in combos or neutral like 2h or ones with diminished value like bandit revolver. Not even going to say anything about heavy mob or how the universal reversal nerfs hit the funny dp man

[@Lucoms]

Sol is so unfun to play right now. His options nerfed. His normals nerfed. Even his non ch damage was nerfed. Only thing he still has is his counterhit damage into cl hvv. That's it. He can't interact with opponents often. Has go block or just run and jump around and try to get a lucky conversion to some stupid high damage combo. Or he just dies. That's how it feels like to me playing Sol right now. Unfun 90% of the time until I can maybe get some ridiculous combo, then he's fun for a few seconds, then it's back to feeling ineffective and weak. I wish he was the opposite. I wish his ch damage is worse, but his neutral buttons are better so he can interact with people more. Some match ups feel so lopsided with Sol having to block for what feels like an eternity. It just ain't fun.

[@Apocalythpe]

This was a good vid. I like how you breakdown the thought process for issues with a game.

[@locustskater]

On a semi-unrelated note those KI and MKX character change videos were good too understand where the devs where at with those characters. Having more context for character changes is way better than seeing the patch notes.

[@danfelder7636]

Nicely covered. I'm glad you also highlighted the point that suggestions are fine and sometimes even super helpful, they're just like the chocolate sprinkles on top of the ice cream. The core player experience, what you're feeling and thinking and when and why, is the ice cream.

[@kriterer]

That doctor metaphor is really effective

[@colonelpopcorn7702]

Just watched the KI documentary and I’ve been thinking about this a lot

[@Yinlock470]

on that MMO example, it could also be that there really is too much space and they just need a faster movement speed to make up for that. like yeah complaints can be unproductive but devs can also filter them into what they *want* to hear

[@vstalbain]

I personally think it's still important to put potential solutions forth...with some caveats. I'm working on an indie RPG where I do ~95% of all QA. So, when a gameplay element feels bad, or a part of the game feels unbalanced, I do exactly as is described here; but, I still put forth ways to solve the problem. Unless a problem is obvious (Feature X doesn't work. Solution: it should work), I try to give at least three possible ideas, and describe what I think the possible ramifications are for other parts of the game, different party compositions, etc. The main difference between my situation and people complaining about OP stuff on the internet is, I have a direct line to the developer, because we discuss these issues directly. So, if I say "This boss is too hard; he is cringe", he can say "Well, have you tried this?" And, this is valuable. You don't know everything about the game you play...even if you're playing it AS the developer is creating it. I've been dead wrong, and I've been playing jRPGs for 30 years, AND jRPGs are much less complex, with fewer possible things that could happen than in something like a PvP game. The point is - and this is admittedly a hard one to swallow for a lot of people - if you're not SURE you know some good solutions...just state the problem. From the perspective of someone who actually gets to see my own solutions implemented (and sometimes reverted), it's humbling to see just how wrong you can be, after being so sure you're right. If you're enjoying the game you're playing, then it's wise to assume that the devs have some idea of what they're doing, so trust that they will know the best solutions a lot of the time.

[@Hugohuge21]

Time to bring in the balance-patch-Rorschach tests to capture those subconscious gamer thoughts

[@beybladetunada5697]

"Help me doc, whenever I see nago my blood pressure rises to oblivion"

[@Yxazel]

Balance is like my Sunday's D&D party. Nobody knows how or what they are doing, but they sure think they are allways on the right

[@Perkerupper_]

Keits described this perfectly in the Killer Instinct documentary with regards to Jago's instinct healing and how the design team handled feedback from the community.

[@Danceofmasks]

I'm the best at this. I just click the uninstall button, and call it a day.

[@philipkelly7369]

yet another instance where I can bring up Mark Rosewater's excellent lecture. He says that players are *very* good at identifying problems, but very bad and solving them.

[@runnergunner42]

Thumbnail game is strong as ever

[@3_14pie]

the describe things as if you are talking to your doctor makes sense and should be true, but is so funny because in reality people lie, exaggerate and withold information from their doctors all the time

[@PerpetuallyTiredMillennial]

As an I-no player with no idea how to deal with HC's gat stopping me from being able to approach since I don't have the ability to dash-guard effectively, it helps when you don't know what the solution even is.

[@kevl0rneswath]

The same can be said about how people ask for any improvement including netcode.

[@Gamersgoinblind]

This sounds very similar to something the Killer Instinct Devs did

[@Gonzakoable]

I'll be honest, playing sol makes me feel power crept. His strenghs feel too easily nullified by FD and I don't really feel that rewarded when I made a good midrange play or whiff punish, the br2 kd doesn't really feel like advantage in midscreen because my oponent can do so much to wiggle out. I hate it when br2 whiffs on hit. I don't like the fact that being able to frametrap axl 2k from my own 2k forces me into either canceling into a - 7 move or I have to hit a frame perfect 2k 2d cancel. One thing I really hate is when I clip a backdash I wanted to call out with 6S and BR whiffs because the backdash when too far. While sol has one of the best defense in the game having a DP and 3 frame button, it doesn't really feel like it? Like, I want to use my fast 5k but my oponents just go under with all these low profile 2ks. I just don't feel strong when I'm up in their face. I feel very vulnerable pressing 2k to stop ram from running up and 2king me

[@TheeFungUsAmongUs]

Include this in the next arc sys GGST survey

[@panache2521]

God I need to write one of these for potempkin

[@spikeprodigy]

I would feel more sympathy if it was any other company than riot, who consistently pushes balance changes alongside skins, but I do agree most people complain without thinking about the quality of their feedback.

[@zarbaboiarchive1680]

how did u bold productively ?

[@TheVentrexian]

I know it happens in most sub communities but man the KI players from years ago were the dumbest mofos I've ever seen on the internet. Their arguments were literally "well this character has X and mine doesn't so the game balance is bad and my character is bad, why would I play this?" Then proceeded to harass friendly devs for years.

[@austinwarden9148]

Do you think it's ok to compare/complain between the characters as well? Like if I want to play a mix up character, why would I Chip or Millia who both die in 2 hits when Leo has just as potent mixups with high health and better options (Best DP and Fireball) I know it's not a 1:1 comparison but I think it's some what valid

[@rachetmarvel931]

You pick whoever you enjoy playing.

[@absoul112]

I think it’s valid, but this is one with a decent amount of responses. In this case mobility is why you’d pick Milia or Chip over Leo.

[@Dhamphyre]

@absoul112 bingo.

[@austinwarden9148]

@@absoul112 right but then would the proper feedback to give the devs be that playing those fast mobile characters feels like you're giving up more than you're gaining when compared to other archetypes like Loe who has a similar game plan? I just feel like my criticism isn't pure salt but I have no idea how to express it.

[@Pandaman64]

I feel that. I used to play millia, but aside from mobility there's really no reason to pick her. She builds less bar then Leo or ino, builds more burst and meter for the opponent, has less health, smaller buttons, and by building risc is nearly useless for her. Her mixups are good but so are Leo and inos. So her only ONLY thing she has going for her is mobility. I don't think worth.

[@feezy314]

Reverb jam

[@thesaltmerchant4564]

It’s not me it’s the matchup. I can’t adapt they’re playing the meta. Does this sound like you? Thanks for the free ranked points

[@prrocker9637]

Me as a may player after nerfs ok whatever I'll deal *players start phasing through 6H* uhhh I think we may need to rework the anchor lol

[@zettovyker]

A lot can be learned from how board game playtesting and feedback sessions are done as well. QA and balancing for games like MTG and Keyforge and Final Strike are both made on an emotional and feeling basis, as is the actual stats and value of the card.

[@seokkyunhong8812]

Yeah, I don't care, I still only want a 2P buff for Potemkin.

[@boislap]

To every rolbackian, we've done it. We are no longer needed.

[@behoimii]

thank you for your feedback you have been diagnosed with skill issue

[@Mage_Nichlas_]

I feel like this makes it very hard for the people that make the Yugioh Banlist considering the rapid growth in power Yugioh is seeing currently, the over 10 thousand cards available to players, and the massive echo chamber of non-discussive complaining from players of vastly different skill levels and playstyles.

[@soren1803]

I don’t think yugioh is a great example, seeing as their design and ban philosophies are so closely tied to profits.

[@AlmostOmniscient]

Even as someone who's been in or adjacent to the ultra-competitive portion of the scene for 18 years (qualification/flex: my current locals has two people who've been invited to worlds and >10 with 2+ YCS top 8s), I think the perspective necessary to make good B&R changes is way beyond my scope. But the current TCG banlist is a hodgepodge of ban philosophies that let everyone maintain an incoherent view on what is "good yugis." Importing the Japanese banlist mission statement would make the discourse infinitely better.

[@lol1013]

nice

[@duelme1234]

personally, I feel like problems like these will become less prevalent if people "thought more concretely" (which the fgc does decently well compared to most other communities I know) and was "more holistic with their balancing process" (let me dream the pipe dream damn it qwq). This video video approached many things from a designer/developer standpoint, and while there is certainly a lot of merit to that (considering how foreign this perspective can be for most players), there are definitely a ton of examples on how devs completely dropped the ball on game balance. Depending on the situation (or genre), it could be because the dev's didn't have an indepth enough understanding of the game themselves and just followed what the players said, it could be because they thought they were smarter than some (especially top players) but turns out they were wrong (not that they can't be right and it's the players that misjudged), had alternative motivates that players don't see (some reasons good and some can be pretty bad/greedy), wasn't holistic with their thinking, or tried to preserve certain aspect of a char/item/etc... when it is that aspect that is "ruining"/fundamentally incompatible with the game.

[@vaderwalks]

I agree with what's been said here, for the most part, but at the risk of abusing the metaphor there is a bit of an issue with the 'doctor's visit' approach. When someone has copious experience with repeating symptoms (e.g. a chronic illness), it's not unreasonable for them to be as direct and clinical with the doctor as possible; 'I know what this is, it's happened before, let's skip the rigmarole and prescribe what I need'. In that case, while it's entirely reasonable for the doctor to run tests and inform their own medical opinion, it can be INCREDIBLY frustrating for the patient to be told 'ride it out while I diagnose, I'll give you what you asked for in 2 weeks'. Sitting around with a deteriorating quality of life when you know the solution is readily available can feel crushingly unfair. Now, OBVIOUSLY, this isn't an apt comparison; the stakes aren't nearly as high, and there's no 'meta' the doctor has to consider, where improving the health of some might damage that of others. You could also point out that the distance between professional and non-professional opinion is much wider for medicine than it is for game design. The only reason I'm expounding on the metaphor is that it's a good representation of how people FEEL when they complain to a dev: 'THIS is the part of the game that makes ME FEEL miserable, can we please treat it NOW. I've been playing this game, or similar games, for a long time, I know what I'm talking about, can you please just fix it?' It doesn't mean they're RIGHT, of course. But it does provide insight as to WHY people complain that way.

[@FeliciaFelixis]

I get that Anji shouldn't be the best character in the game, but why doesn't that apply to anyone else? They sure didn't seem concerned with balance when it comes to any of the characters everybody already agrees are way above the average. Maybe I'm just bitter about it, but it feels really infuriating to have the worst character in the game get a mix of buffs and nerfs and some busted characters just get a bunch of buffs and a slap in the wrist.

[@veeng5619]

As someone who plays +R Baiken, I see why that don't to make Anji more well rounded. Unfortunately, the existence of spin itself is a really dangerous to make Anji too powerful. In the case of +R Baiken, it was unfun to fight against her cause of how easy she can turn hey opponent plus frame against them. Not to mention she has excellent pressure, zoning on top of it. Strive Anji toolset skirt dangerously close to that I believe. The dev probably want to err on the side of caution.

[@FeliciaFelixis]

​@@veeng5619 I get that, and I even agree! All characters should be fun to play against and have strenghts and weaknesses, as much as possible. What makes me frustrated is that this concern doesn't seem to extend to all other characters. Nago, Chaos, Ram and some others all feel really unfun to play against, imo, but they just keep getting micro-nerfs and even some buffs, but Anji can't keep his knockdown after Kou because that would be too broken? Why are they so afraid of Anji being good when we already have all these S tier characters in the game? Feels inconsistent to me.

[@slablargemeat8954]

This is good advice but I kinda think it only applies to western devs. Problems that have no alternative interpretations (e.g. "connecting to network" takes way too long due to Strive making many unnecessary network connections) still persist for years in Japanese games. I don't understand how Japanese devs consume feedback.

[@ragna2077]

First

[@DrLegitimate]

The problem here is that it assumes System Designers are competent. The vast, vast majority of system designers have no idea what a tuning target is, how to expose useful tuning knobs, or how to consider the relationship between complexity, execution, and output. Actually drilling down into a conversation with the people that are supposed to tune your game frequently reveals a truth that the most engaged players already know in their hearts, but don't want to confront: The people at the wheel are drunk. As artists, narrative directors, writers, actors and other disciplines continue to improve, System Design as a craft has failed to move forward and has in fact regressed in a lot of places. Thankfully, fighting games have been (mostly) spared from this regression, but other genres have not been so lucky. All this is to say is that I don't think feedback is worth it - I don't think you can have a great conversation with someone who is supposed to tune your favorite game because they don't know what they are doing. There is no training in this craft, and while getting the job might be tough (unless you know someone), the bar for keeping a system design position is basically, 'have a pulse'.

[@hmad898]

you really just said the people who make the games dont know what theyre doing.

[@third-ratedude4234]

And you say that players with no experience making a game would do better?

[@DrLegitimate]

@@third-ratedude4234 Certainly not. Most players have terrible ideas around the ideas of what it means to balance and tune a game. What I am saying though is that most System Designers are not experts in the art of System Design either.

[@negentropyagent7337]

Pretty accurate. Sadly not many know this or as you said, decide to ignore it

[@roberteriksen6434]

Yearh writing anything in that style feels like a major _thanks for the feedback bro, ignored tho._ It's great that specific person has that specific preference, but that's alot of words for alot of nothing. Just be a normal person, conclusion + justification. Who would have the time reading hundreds of these, jeez.

[@Dhamphyre]

Their feedback example is three short paragraphs. It takes less than a minute to read them. You just sat through a twelve minute KZbin video. It’s part of a game designer’s job to read feedback. Also, those three short paragraphs are all structured around conclusion+justification. Not sure what you’re upset about.

[@roberteriksen6434]

@@Dhamphyre It's really similar except in the main part where they are polar opposite and my direction is literally the exact scenario he wants to avoid. My example, to stay within card games, easy mtg example: _Conclusion: Ban Modern Horizons 2. _*_All of it_* - _Reason 1 why it should be banned_ - _Reason 2 why it should be banned_ - ... - _Reason n why it should be banned_ _Unnecessary summary that shouldn't even be there, because I can't help myself_ This is not just walking into the doctor's office and telling what you want to happen. This is the equivalent of bringing a gun to the office and start making demands compared to his structure. _'I felt it was an interesting utlity option[...] I understood it as [...] I wasn't confident'_ *just cut to the f*ckn chase jeez.* I don't even agree with his assessment here. Not only isn't it wrong to tell your doctor first _what you are even here for,_ it *would* only be wrong to begin with if the doctor had more knowledge on the subject than you. But if I make feedback, it's because I believe I have an equal or usually better understanding about the subject, so I'd even argue his line of reasoning is fallacious at its core. So yearh, very very similar, great analysis. I don't even

[@Dhamphyre]

@@roberteriksen6434 It's great that you have that preference, but your reply is striking me as a lot of words for a lot of nothing. May I suggest just trying to be a normal person? I mean, who has the time to read all that? What I'm trying to say is "Thanks for the feedback bro, ignored tho"