Sajam Talks Defensive Playstyles

[@happycamperds9917]

I don’t play defensive, I move first. I run in the opposite direction as soon as the round starts.

[@michelemelo6836]

I feel like the difference between Smash and other FGs is that, because of the movement and timer in Smash, defensive players spend long periods of time "just running away", wich isn't really possible in most other FGs. In SF, for example, the defensive player is always throwing projectiles and spacing pokes. There is always something "happening". I'm a mostly offensive players, but I appreciate defensive players, even if I don't love playing against them. If everyone played offensive all the time those games would probably be less enjoyable for me, you gotta have the variety.

[@FapasaurusRexx]

It's corners that make the difference. Someone can run in a 2D fighter, but the corner will ultimately put them in a bad spot. In smash, some characters thrive off stage, and therefore can play the running game much much longer.

[@darkthunder301]

Smash 4's perfect pivots seemed to be a pretty balanced form of defense. You can quickly position yourself far enough to weave around your opponent's attacks and still attack yourself, but not so far that your opponent couldn't respond by extending a little.

[@BigDaddyWes]

Pissing off your opponent (doing something they don't like being up against) and making them impatient are two of the most satisfying ways to win. Almost all games of any kind have these types of strategies. It literally doesn't matter why you think your game is "different." It's all about controlling the pacing of the encounter. It applies to everything from things like poker and chess to boxing. Pretty much any team sports or any PvP video game involve some totally viable tactics that can be referred to as "running away."

[@Vatis93]

Timer works when neither player thinks about it, and the match ends in 1 - 3 min. When it's factored in, for slower MUs, that's on them.

[@KeshavKrishnan]

@@Vatis93 timer works when it's not a factor lmao. feels like it should be a shorter timer?

[@playapiano666]

I think something that can help is good commentary. Very few commentators in the Smash community (especially melee) play defensively, and don't really understand the playstyle enough to make it interesting to watch. Your commentary really helped me appreciate slower playstyles, but it's definitely harder to do in Smash.

[@BacchusGames]

It's hard to make running away interesting for 8 minutes

[@noodletribunal9793]

@@BacchusGames it's weird too that most matchups only last like 4 minutes anyway. it's only when you get to jiggly and maybe peach that the extra 4 matter.

[@kumikones]

The main issue is that the timer in Smash goes on for a very very long time. Stages do not necessarily punish defensive playstyles either. Gotta also understand that most of Smash fights take place in the air, so the options that the zoner has are more varied compared to, say, Guile being walked into the corner. Not saying that zoners are OP in Smash, but defensive playstyles in the series are honestly tedious as they are frustrating.

[@maxfelson9467]

The projectile in smash aren't usually that good tho I only can recall a couple char that actually has a good zone game / projectile game (obvious one is Simon / richter)

[@Jack-b5m6r]

@@maxfelson9467 But it is easier in smash to play the runaway game due to the various movement speeds between characters and platform stages allowing players to jump and regain horizontal stage ground over traditional fighters, the latter being more notable in later smash games. The incentive to hold on to stage control isn't as important as in traditional fighting games, so character zoning potential doesn't have to be as strong, just movement and a decent way to do ranged damage. I'm not against defensive play, I'm usually a defensive player myself (at least what I can pull off at my just below intermediate level, I love defensive characters like Menat and USF4 Juri, and when I played smash I loved to hang back and whiff punish as Peach in melee and Corrin in 4) but the defensive play in smash is just less risky.

[@maxfelson9467]

@@Jack-b5m6r I mean I was just commenting about how That zone game in smash aren't as good, (not defensive play) what I meant by that is you can't just spam projectile attack, even if you want to zone you have to think about it (unless, you know...) Plus on defensive play, I mean you really can't play purely defensively otherwise you won't get a stock you still have to practice character / combos know their move etc so, I just think that people may use that as an excuse.

[@Jack-b5m6r]

max felson Playing defensive doesn’t mean not throwing out kill moves or trying to hit confirms to go into combos, it just means that you make your opponent approach you. Zoning goes farther than just the projectile game.

[@maxfelson9467]

@@Jack-b5m6r 1. thats the point its not exactly a. thing you can do to win if yki jusy do it. 2 the porpuse of zoning is keeping a certain dostance to the opponent but heres the problem there arent really that many long range moves in smash

[@hydrosting]

“Sometimes you need to watch two high damage characters just swing at each other”. Big fax.

[@BlueDeadNoRedemption]

Scrubs will ALWAYS cry about defense, but if you steamroll them with some flowchart vortex they'll usually think you're an amazing player. Really short sighted. Way I see it my opponent is supposed to be either pissed off or scared. As far as spectating goes, defense can be really suspenseful. Who doesn't love a good staredown with the clock ticking, full meters and whoever makes the next mistake loses?

[@SMSAceofSpades]

So basically you enjoy watching paint dry?

[@petree]

@@SMSAceofSpades I think he enjoys either pissing off his opponent and making them impatient so they play worse with great defensive play or just using what they can use to win. Should just do what you can to win in a fighting game and if defensive play is what you need to do then that's it. People playing for money will do what they can despite what others say.

[@CantHandleThis6]

​​​@@SMSAceofSpadesNah i enjoy waiting for my opponent to screw themselves over and killing em for it. I know you want to get in but if youre too focused on that i very well my counter hit you into 6k damage. Thats your own fault for getting impatient. Its fun watching someone slowly make worse and worse mistakes only for it to cost them. Then i can get cool unblockable setups, fire loop, and Agidyne combos and we'll see who's playing defensive then

[@axis8396]

I think it's more negative on "non-interactive" play rather than defensive play like Puff circle camping is very different from Peach or Marth baiting and whiff punishing. Traditional games they walk to the corner but now they gotta find a way around you to get to the other side but Puff has 5 jumps and pound stalling and then kills you at 50

[@Sp4reChangePlz]

I love tekken because I can play any character and still incorporate my defensive style.

[@2000Doriyas]

Strong movement makes everything so flexible, it’s awesome

[@garretwoeller7669]

Amen I love a great balance of being able to do both in a very fluid way like I love Sagat but his normals don't combo for great offense but Fahkumram in tekken balances both it's satisfying

[@xaviersanchez3498]

Tekken is definitely one of the best games to truly express yourself through your character and play style. The amount of times that I’ve run into people who play the same character with a completely different play style from mine is pretty amazing.

[@TheJakeJackson]

I play a defensive Marduk. I'm a madman. It works. bb df1

[@trcakira8974]

@Sajam I'm someone who started as a Melee player but have moved into more traditional 2D games + Tekken. What I have come to learn fighting defensive players in Melee is the annoyance of not having a wall/corner to press oki and minimum execution requirements. The minimal execution requirements in the case of jigglypuff is the most annoying because after a few pokes with b+air you can whiff punish with u+air and then follow up with Rest for a kill anywhere on screen. On the flip side my neutral game is pretty killer because of dealing with that type of BS for so long...

[@C17Y]

But you do have a corner to press in smash :' (not rly against jiggs but thats one out of 26 char)

[@tjtribble.]

@@C17Y ik I’m late but the ledge really isn’t a corner like in traditional fighters. The ledge isn’t that bad of a place to be, especially in Melee where it’s often beneficial.

[@C17Y]

@@tjtribble. not really, your opponent pretty much has to act unless he can refresh, and even then he has to commit to get off (-haxmoney galint 15+ consistent ledgedash)

[@tjtribble.]

@@C17Y Ledge stalling is a viable strategy in melee with many characters, and the only reason why it’s not super dominant is because it’s lame. When people win games by running to the ledge I’d say it’s a pretty good place to be. It’s also different from traditional fg corners in that it can be harder to hit your opponent on ledge rather than easier. When you back your opponent into a corner they usually don’t have anywhere to run to, so you can apply as much pressure as you want. On the ledge your opponent doesn’t have as much incentive to leave, and you usually have to wait for them to leave or make a mistake. It’s obviously a lot more complicated then that for both examples but the principle still stands.

[@C17Y]

@@tjtribble. you have to come off the ledge eventually because lgl

[@benjaminfenn3700]

I actually enjoy playing against defensive players when I'm playing rushdown or w/e. And I'm not even talkin like those lying posts where ppl bitch about zoning, then when called out on gittin gud just revert to saying they crush zoners and laugh at them so that's not why they're complaining. I mean I genuinely enjoy the cat and mouse game. We both know what happens if I get in, and shit gets real frantic when I'm almost there

[@rustedgearbox7064]

I feel the same when you’re just barely scraping your way in And there just barely keeping you out it’s actually pretty tense and a lot of fun but I wouldn’t fight it all the time

[@phabiorules]

Same here. I prefer rushdown with some zoning options. When I fight a zoner, I'm the cat. When I'm fighting a grappler, I'm the mouse. When I'm fighting another rushdown, we are gorillas.

[@Josukegaming]

Defensive play is one thing but as a smash player, the reason people hate it so much is because you can just run away and abuse movement/projectiles to an absurd point where you literally can't catch a faster character and they will just time you out with almost nothing you can do. It's a bit different compared to SF where there's only a certain amount of space on the screen to run away to, and much harder to completely avoid the opponent.

[@CLW1994]

I agree it depends on the game

[@EarthLordCJ]

In regards to platform-fighters like Smash, Rivals of Aether seems to deal with this much better. You have characters that can zone out effectively with projectiles, but because the approaching player has access to parrying, they’re able to keep the zoners honest. Since there’s a lot of movement options in that game, too, the zoning game ends up *looking* more interesting than in Smash, and feels more fair/less degenerate. Any game that allows heavy zoning needs some kind of counter-balance, (same with games that are ‘hyper-aggressive’) and I’m not really sure that Smash has that.

Sounds like you just need to git gud

[@ErFuyl]

​@@EarthLordCJthe problem is that smash doesn't play like a fighting game, more like a party game, so they don't even try to balacing characters and playstyles as there also items and stage hazards to completely deny skill gap and allow the most degenarete playstyles possible. Rivals in other hand is way more balanced and competitive because it plays as a fighting game, but this comes with the cost of being the hardest platform fighter ever where casuals will certain be destroyed at any online match. if smash played like a platform fighter instead of a party game, the zoning would be already fixed right in the first game, but this would make casual players abandon the game.

[@raikoedgymoto]

I understand why people hate defensive play but I've also learned to appreciate it as playing defensively has saved my ass especially in some of my arcade runs of The King of Fighters 2001 where one moment you're just playing against the cpu and by the 3rd or 6th team you're facing the wrath of hell itself.

[@LegendaryMythril]

the funny thing about the "viewership" argument is how many times people have debunked it using raw twitch numbers.

[@hemogoblin3076]

I get shit talked for playing JackO. And I will never stop

[@XXNemesisXXXX]

same =)

[@mfbandit7930]

dont stop bro. Play who like, everyone is gonna hate no matter what you play when you win

[@hemogoblin3076]

@@mfbandit7930 that's half the reason I play her. People instantly tilt when they see her. Or I get kicked from the lobby 😂

[@thegoose8663]

In Smash defensive playstyle is pretty much running from your opponent and stalling. Flying over them or/and sitting on the ledge with invincibility frames, jumping on and off.

[@keyanklupacs6333]

Someone has puff ptsd lmao.

[@jimmykeffer7401]

I personally hate rushdown much more than zoning. Rushdown characters make me feel like I never get a turn on offense, whereas zoners give me plenty of space to move about and plan my approach. That’s why I think ppl who hat salty about zoners just need to calm down and accept different playstyles.

[@CantHandleThis6]

Found the Zoner main.

[@KenjiAsakura09]

the irony in the last sentence is hilarious

[@marcocortes3279]

This is just like boxing champ floyd mayweather, he had a defensive/counter style or runnaway style so no one liked it. That guy really trained and put lots of effort into developing good counter boxing and spacing + defense so everysingle one of his opponents where facing a fast movile big wall... and we all know how frustrated mike tyson was because he could not open his opponent defense ( thats the famous bite to the ear ) so... really one of the most effective way to fight is probably defensive and just punish your opponent mistakes letting them get frustrated because you do nothing, and this is not true only to real life but to fighting games, where it is a lot easier to put into practice. i would just say the fact that having to attack makes you vulnerable its okey, thats how real life fighting works too and our frustration against defensive players is for me just a good reflection of real life fighting (without real body training or pain of course).

[@MadassAlex]

The issue with playing defensive is vulnerability to feints and other indirect attacks. An effective defensive playstyle has to apply enough pressure to punish attempts at tricky attack patterns and techniques while remaining ready to counter the honest, direct ones.

[@TheSeventhChild]

When they pushblock your Hakumen

[@DominicLD]

I might have something to add on why defensibe play feels good by relating it to combat sports. I'm not a fighter, but I looove muay thai/kickboxing/mma sparring and Im very defensive. I did tkd for many years so I brought a lot of long range kicks and backward footwork to my mma training. The feeling of knowing that keeping my opponent/sparring partner away from me is annoying them compounds on top of the endorphin hit of landing a strike (at least for me). Maybe this is more prevelent in combat sports because of the direct feedback you get from physical contact and looking at your opponent. Either way I feel like most defensive fighting game players probably get the same satisfaction from annoying their opponent with heir game plan. TLDR: defensive players are sadists

[@rpgtimefire]

Nothing feels better then never getting touched. But a perfect firm aggression is a pure masterpiece.

[@FFXfever]

I think Smash community frown upon defensive play more is because of its history. It was built around the foundation of people finding every single tech and combo, things that the devs didn't intend to happen. As a result, for a long time, tournament was a showcase of your lab result. Yet, even though 1 touch of death is possible even in early parts of its life with the Ken combo, this was not frowned upon because you can DI out of it, so the other player is still playing even though he's getting juggled. So this upbringing had imprinted 2 core values for the community: interactivity and do cool shit. This was why even though Armada and M2k were the ultimate defensive players of the hey days, and people complained about m2k doing the same kind of stalls that HBox did, they were still accepted. They had insane punishes that seems to predict every opponent's DI, and it was alot of cool shit. In come Puff, Ice climbers, and zoners in later smash games. These characters' optimal play requires less interactivity, and have very linear gameplan/execution. This is especially the case with Snake and Puff, they don't want to interact with you until you mess up, and that can mean 10 seconds of spacing away from you. That's why defensive Smash players gets extra bad rep for these stuff. It's even worse than MvC3's hey day. Atleast those guys are willing to celebrate with chrisG when he finally won Evo.

[@SuuBrainrot]

funny how this is recommended to me during the wifi sonic controversy in smash

[@Minecraftdemon99]

Melee has mang0 as kinda the face of its community and he is very vocal about playstyles he doesn't like so a lot of people follow suit. When it comes to puff she doesn't really play an interactive defensive game. Most defensive characters in melee want you to interact with them so they can punish the interaction (think plup shiek camping platform only to shield drop punish an approach or mew2king cc grabbing with Marth) jiggs doesn't really play that style of neutral she sit there and puts up a wall of hitboxes that's hard to contest more akin to defensive characters in traditional fighters. when you do get in puffs weight and air mobility makes her hard to combo and with 5 jumps she has the best recovery in the game making her hard to kill with a gimp. All of this without even mentioning the mental pressure of knowing she can kill you at like 20-30% with a rest and you end up with character who stands out as frustrating in the melee roster. To make matters worse for hbox him and mango have beef from back in the day and that doubles the hate he gets.

[@luckyumbasa417]

I was going to say that on a casual level it takes far less effort to appreciate blatant offensive play, and I think thats true, but it doesnt explain flashy zoning generally not being appreciated. Maybe its identifying with the player being zoned or giving them underdog status, maybe once the move loses the impression of being direct it becomes 'the game' rather than the 'the player' people, or maybe the perception of the effortreward | riskreward ratios being skewed(regardless of whether it is in reality or not). Idk, but I can say its a hell of a lot more entertaining watching Deontay Wilder fight than it is Floyd Mayweather.

[@Minecraftdemon99]

Flashy spacing get plenty of appreciation in melee. Marth is pretty well liked by the community and he basically forced to play a spacing/zoning heavy game. It's literally just people hate for puff and hbox

[@ke9n]

10:30 I disagree with this idea, though they aren't completely wrong. It's just different strokes for different folks. You could easily make the counter-argument that slower, defensive play would be easier for uninitiated viewers to keep up with and potentially lead them to believe they can do it too; thus, garnering more interest in whatever game they're watching. Faster games can make some people think "wtf is even happening on the screen right now" or "that's way too fast, I could never do that", especially if they aren't familiar with said games. Though again, some players are inspired by fast and flashy shit. Overall, I agree that seeing multiple playstyles in top 8's is awesome because that's what will attract all different types of viewers/potential players, and really shows that anyone is welcome. Showing that any playstyle can be competitive can only be a good thing for a game.

[@codeaccuna]

9:32 what Puff upset happened?

[@agaed7676]

It’s ironic that quite a lot of fast character in smash look aggressive but have the tools to camp you so hard and in certain cases (wario) he gets one of the single best moves in the game by waiting See zero suit shamus, wario, r.o.b,

[@Pixygon]

Surprised you didn’t list Sonic.

[@ButchLesbianSolBadguy]

Thank you sajam for talking about defensive playstyles

[@MrXXVII]

I'm not a smasher but aren't the belmonts active zoners? It's different from puff back air camping right?

[@FruitsBootG]

Sajam brings up a good point about defensive play and a run-away defensive play style. It's awesome watching one guy avoid aggressive offense for 20 seconds straight and retaliate at a crucial moment, but it's boring as hell watching one dude run away for 2 minutes straight while doing doing 1-3 moves with little to no variation

[@Chaoskae]

FruitsbootG it’s boring as hell to watch one dude rush someone down doing the same combos and wash rise repeat 50/50. MVC3 Zero or Vergil... Melee Fox grab chains... it’s boring and dry. It’s get to see people break an offensive down and watch people game plans get this mantled it’s truly an art

[@xswordiex4302]

Nah I love watching slower playstyles

[@pottedplant37_]

I personally love watching and playing as (and/or) a defensive playstyle

[@ErFuyl]

every fighting game should give more defensive options because most defensive characters are just eitheir projectile spammers or run away characters. this may be fun to the player, as they're being a evil immovable object, but is way boring to watch. There is few defensive characters who are fun to watch, like samsho rooster and axl low.

[@tonyaldante1017]

Smash, particularly smash ultimate, has a huge issue with offensive options just dwarfing the effectiveness of defensive options, whereas smash 4 was nearly the opposite, parry and oos options generally have little pay off compared to just counter attacking your opponent with just a dash back, they whiff, punish, defensive options revolve around getting out of disadvantage, your mixups to get away, the only really viable character that's always always defensive is Snake

[@aquaex6]

This is not true in the slightest. If anything defense has gotten better in this game.

[@spngy_demigod]

defensive play doesnt mean ur bad. its tactical play that is incredibly smart. especially in a game like smash where anyone can do almost anything in that game to knock someone out. people bitch about characters that are defensive or players that are defensive because they want to see something happen. they dont want to prepare for the rain. they want to see the storm hit the bay with full force, and thats not practical. overall, i do agree with Sajam’s comment on Jack-O mains, Gargos mains, Menats and Guiles and all of that shit. they are fun to watch. and dont bullshit “oh they slow down the game!” blah blah blah! they struggle with counter picks just as much as other characters. learn the match up! fight more of those mains! adapt! grow! be the Eevee u never thought u could be, and EVOLVE according to ur environment!

[@Aegis_Crimson]

I like to watch solid defensive play, but I hate playing against it. I can watch Justin Wong play Menat and Chris G play Morrigan all day, buuuut I definitely wouldn’t want to run into either of those matchups in tournament.

[@hanniballecture]

Personally I love JackO and other Keep away characters like Midler. In most games it's always easier to go ooga booga vs. avoiding and or neutralizing aggression. Posing the questions is almost always better than always reacting to situations

[@tastyscavenger]

@Sajam What character (if any) do you think players pick solely to induce misery on the opponent?

[@danaltamirano2546]

Dan

[@pottedplant37_]

UI Goku

[@wes8448]

I think defensive play in smash is so disliked because the timer is soooo long man. Like in street fighter, timeout is after 90 seconds, then it resets. Melee is an 8 minute timer, if someone wins by timeout in a 3-0 it’s minimum 24 minuts

[@jordanguelbert7754]

Im a defensive player, i love zoning and id rather go back to neutral then do pressure. (Although i love oki because its literally weighted gambling and it feeds my sadism to loop someone to death.) But i will always move as far forward as i can safely bc thats how screen space works

[@austinlux3293]

Waiting for the Venice beach prank video where Sajam goes around telling people that the dbfz update is gonna add rollback netcode

[@gildedgarden3932]

I agree that there is a difference between defensive play and lame play. You have your John Choi's who play defensive until given an opportunity to start offense. And then you have the Eddie Lee's of the world who wouldnt go in and play rushdown even if he was getting tortured outside the game. The idea that "lame" play isnt "fun" gets worse with every generation. God forbid mvc2 spirals and 3s chuns.

[@caelan5301]

I think a big reason people hate defensive play in smash because there's SO much more space and ways to move around compared to most 2d fighters. Chasing a defensive axl in guilty gear really feels like an interesting mind game of trying to weave through renssen and his long normals, and once you get him knocked down he explodes. Heavy reward for spending the whole round getting in. Compared to smash, you can push someone to the edge of the stage, but they have so many escape routes and movement tricks, especially Puff who can go under the stage and get to the other side. Chasing around a lil puffbull that's super hard to combo and has so many ways to slip away just isn't as fun as mauling an axl player for 1 or 2 wrong guesses.

[@bubbastevegarcia2459]

Justin in the thumbnail is fucking godlike

[@TheGavinLaver]

Late to the party but gotta say I definitely feel like defensive play is more interactive with 2d fighters giving the match time and the limited space. I hate playing defensive players in smash and steered away from playing characters that rely on it because it also wasnt as fun to play defense rather than consistently interacting. Nowadays that I focus mainly on 2d titles I enjoy both playing against zoners and playing zoning characters myself a lot more. Probably why I'm a ferry main lol.

[@agaed7676]

I think what hurts the most about defensive play in smash is the fact that you sometime just can’t reach them Especiallyy with the slower characters which just feels like you can’t do anything Defensive play against a fast high tier for me in smash feels fine because I can keep up and I still feel you are earning your hits but ganondorf va shamus.

[@WT_Neptune]

The beginning all sounds like playing a grappler

[@GregInTechnicolor]

Okay so it depends what smash game you're talking about though. If its Melee, its just people complaining. Playing defensive is essential in some matchups. If its Ultimate (late alone online) the way they play "defensive" is by running away with a lead, or zoning you with projectiles of disjoints. Online there is almost little way to react with 12(by default)+ frames of input delay. Ultimate players can complain about lame defensive characters online, Melee players can't.

[@TheStrangeBloke]

Coming onto this video way late but the simple answer is that the melee community created this problem for themselves. By making the timer so long (8 minutes even though 90% of matches are shorter than 3) they make timing out into a tedious drag that their tournaments cannot support on a structural level. A Bo5 bracket reset grand finals can consequently run as long as 1 hour and 20 minutes of *playtime*. The timer should be set to five minutes, period. If someone wants to time out, they should be able to without ruining everyone's day. Some specific forms of camping (IE, circle camping, ledge camping, and air camping) should simply be banned or made impossible through stage selection or custom stages. All of this could easily be achieved if my fellow melee players would get their heads out of the sand and update their fricking ruleset. No player should get hate for going for a win because of some arbitrary standard that constantly shifts and is inconsistently applied.

[@iwatchDVDsonXbox360]

As an aggressive player i must say that i actually like playing against defensive players. It feels more satisfying when you catch and destroy them then when you beat the other aggressive player. I think defensive play is bad when both players play defensively. I've noticed that i can only play defensively when my opponent plays aggressively, if opponent also plays defensively i quickly get bored and switch to an aggressive playstyle.

[@Athorment]

I think the reason why Defensive Smash play (or similar games to what i'm going to point out) is generally because punishing a zoner/Defensive play doesn't do much. You get 2-4 hits in and that's it, you are usually back to trying to catch them again. Unlike games like Marvel where touches of death help mitigate that.

[@spaghettioverlord3247]

The zoning in marvel vs Capcom was 100x worse than in smash bro’s.

[@Athorment]

@@spaghettioverlord3247 Extremes are much more pronounced. "Oh, morrigan is shooting projectiles on both sides of the screen... whack! Oh wait, Vergil just caught her with Level 3 X-factor still on his pocket. GGs"

[@spaghettioverlord3247]

@@Athorment it’s almost impossible to zone somebody out for a whole game in smash bro’s. In marvel you literally have to worry about the whole screen being filled with fireballs. There’s almost no zoning in smash bro’s because you can dodge through a projectile, roll through a projectile, shield a projectile, jump over a projectile, and run under a projectile all for a punish. Zoning is the smallest concern ever in smash bro’s to the point where zoners just turn into rush down characters when they land something because that’s how the game is made.

[@Athorment]

@@spaghettioverlord3247 Thanks for agreeing with me and my point

[@spaghettioverlord3247]

@@Athorment Your point was that zoning is more annoying in smash because you can’t punish that well, while in marvel you can kill somebody in one combo so it’s balanced. Your point is wrong idk how tf I agreed with you.

[@myboy_]

As a smash player, I think there's a difference between a defensive, reactive game plan vs just camping and ledge stalling

[@slyspencex9236]

playing remy in sf3 is hell, trying to throw projectiles and flash kicks when you have ken, makoto, chun, and alex rushing the hell out of you is pain.

[@agustinrosado1153]

Booms are useless in a game where you can instantly parry any fireball

[@AnthanKrufix]

I'd call the difference between playing defensive and playing 'lame' to be mainly down to disrespect. If a defensive player lands a hit which could translate into a high damaging BnB combo, but instead they go for a low damage but longer combo just to burn more time, etc.

[@dizzygunner]

why should people give up doing what they do to win just because OTHER PEOPLE don't like it?

[@dizzygunner]

@@MatF1 that's not weird that's every spectator sport never mind just games, but competitors don't give a shit they are there to win.

[@scrappydrake4683]

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with defensive play, but there are 2 pitfalls it's prone to falling into that both lead to unfun gameplay. First, it can end up being really tedious if the process of getting past their defenses is repetitive, time-consuming, and doesn't involve many interesting decisions. Second, it tends to lead to very asymmetric games, where whichever player loses loses really badly, and not in a position where they even get to execute their gameplan.

[@ThaRealElementX]

I like defensive play. I think it's important to react, and guess on what your opponent is going to do and can be very entertaining. Now I can understand why it's frustrating, but if it gives you limited options to do so maybe that's why. In smash, defense is very strong in smash because of ledges and platforms.

[@caducada395]

playing against campers in smash is more frustrating than normal fighting games because the timer is so long

[@sauceinmyface9302]

Also it's a lot easier to keep running circles around your enemy.

[@xswordiex4302]

If the timer was shorter it would be even easier to camp

[@WhatAMagician]

In wrestling you get a flag for stalling and in many combat sports you can lose points for passivity. It’s a fighting game, fight. Some people just want an arena with a captive to frustrate them. There is something lost in the win at any cost mentality you espouse. All choices are expressive what are you expressing?

[@Neohampster]

Can I just briefly say the "jigglypuff is easy" thing in Smash is the single stupidest argument I have ever heard. They like to say that HBox is only successful because he plays a character and in such a way where anybody could swing way above their weight class. Puff is a joke character, I don't care what anybody says. If you shield break her, which some characters can do in one hit and most in 2-3 good hits, she dies INSTANTLY off the top. You can't do anything about it. Her special move is a gimmick that is the most obvious double edged sword in anything I have ever seen and a huge amount of the time in 1v1 you will still eat a few hits even if you land it and kill your opponent because they will come back hot as hell and hit you before you recover. The biggest thing about it though is nobody, and I mean nobody, who was already a top player just picked up puff and noticeably improved. I am still sitting here waiting for Leffen to stop being such a little bitch and prove most of the shit talking he has done before. Not a single person who lost to HBox, said puff is busted and braindead, ever picked up puff and dominated tournaments. It's basically just HBox as far as top tier puff players to that degree. They make it sound like if Armada picked up puff as a main he would fucking JV4 every pro every time no effort because puff is so busted but that is the stupidest shit I have ever heard. HBox plays defensive, he saw a field of hyper offense unga bunga frame data aggro boys and said fuck that they can't kill me if they can't touch me and just showed up with footsies. If you have ever actually watched him he rarely straight up runs, he will keep away sometimes to bait a move but i have not seen many examples of him outright timer scamming or hard stalling and even if he did that every game I wouldn't care. Change the rules to stop what you find stupid or everyone will start doing it if it's so effective. Neither thing happened. If his style was so effective it would've changed the meta. It didnt. It's still fox teleport shining you into the dirt and marth grabbing you from across state lines as they both combo you into a shallow grave. I, for one, enjoy the change of pace HBox brings.

[@PurpleFreezerPage]

Personally I wish there were more fighting games about pure mastery, no knowledge. I want a fighting game with like 1-3 characters that all play similarly so match-up is not much of a factor. I basically want a fighting game that feels like basketball.

[@azu1394]

street fighter 1, or footsies, sounds like the game for you

[@HasvenWorld]

As an offensive player...I just end up getting bored when fighting defensive styles. I get unsafe when I get bored. I play soul cal though so at least their guard can break

[@elliotterodriguez]

I play defensive in DBFZ its fun

[@hoodedstreetmonk352]

Given the aggressive nature in that game, it's actually surprising people manage to do that. Who do you use? I wager Freeza is a given, seeing he's the closest to being a zoner.

[@SpecialBeam]

@@hoodedstreetmonk352 It's pretty fun in DBFZ mostly BECAUSE the game is so aggressive. It makes the defense more hype to watch and more involved when playing. For me at least. I play A21, Cooler/Piccolo, and Freeza.

[@AbcDef-fs4rj]

@@hoodedstreetmonk352 you don't need to play a zoner to be defensivley. i assume he likes to backup a lot to avoid high risks. it's super annoying in dbfz and you rarely see people playing like this but it is a legit playstyle.

[@keo_bas]

The thing to remember about defense is that its not just zoning but about counter play. Basically option that work as "reaction to another action" for example A17/18 barrier, Broly Amour, Hit stance invulnerability, Jirens counters ect.

[@younghou]

it's a matter of skill and players interaction. if you can play defensive/lame and the opponent can do nothing about, that is wrong (some zoners like menat, guile, mvc2 cable). but if your defense is soo strong you almost block/react to every offensive attempt that is actually impressive (kuroda Q, GO1 dbfz, fchamp sim)

[@Cj-sq8ku]

I feel like the term "lame" can be classified as you're not having fun no matter the situation. which can happen with both offensive and defensive characters. It could be bardock in dbfz or kabal in mk9. Of course there is a bunch more examples but those are the ones that come to mind. Not to say that these characters do not take skill or anything of that sort. Its just the way they're displayed to fight against and to watch are considered "lame." However, people misuse lame and call characters like sim or guile lame because the other person is outsmarting you. Its easy to crack that defense if you know the match up. "lame" characters can make you feel uncomfortable and annoyed even if you play said character. I think Jigglypuff falls into that category imo.

[@AniVegMinMan]

i mean look i hate to ask as someone who got into SFV just by virtue of "competitve games = eSports" and I was finally ready to get into "it", but wasn't SFV balanced the way it is now cause SF4 a defensive game due to heavy zoning?

[@pastorofmuppets9346]

It wasnt zoning that made option select fighter 4 so defensive

[@chapapa-papa]

This sums up how I felt fighting Akuma as T. Hawk in USF4. You have to deal with so much jank to earn that sweet sweet command grab. Same with Guile, fuck both those characters lmao

[@datdude15]

Nah their us defensive and playing puff on melee holding onto the ledge or playing sonic in ultimate and just zoom around the screen for a timeout

[@LastHazzerd]

to this day, he's still correct. Everyone really dislikes Hungrybox, he really is a detestable individual

[@TelvanniGuard]

Blazblue CS2. Lordknight vs Spark.

[@Sp4reChangePlz]

" Defensive play doesn't bring views.. " Have any of you guys heard of the diago parry?

[@fianle]

That's just one moment in an entire match.

[@TheScarsdaleVibe]

who's Diego

[@Balloon410]

@@TheScarsdaleVibe Yeah I think I heard of him, that Umajuarez guy.

[@joeldamminga7243]

@TheScarsdaleVibe I'm pretty sure it's the bird in The Lion King

[@The268170]

It's not Deago it's Deigo.

[@raychangalarza179]

When Smash players play against a Guile in Super Turbo they'll freak out

[@pixxur]

Man I don't mind defensive play (Zoning) but I don't like when players actively choose not to interact and run away. It wastes AAAAALLLLLOOOOOTTTT of time

[@malcolmseabrook8770]

I would say the difference between playing lame versus playing defensive comes down to punishment. A good defensive player punishes you hard for failing to get in, whereas someone "laming you out" isnt trying to punish you but just turning their brain off and putting the onus on you to either bust ass or get chipped out/time scammed in the most low effort way possible. It's like reverse unga. I don't think I've seen much of the latter in high-level play.

[@Dahras1]

Not to necro this video, but I've got to say, the whole "Defensive play is boring" meme needs to die. It pisses me off because some of my favorite fighting game matches to watch of all time have involved characters like Gargos or PacMan or Megaman. And I get that zoner vs. zoner matchups can by dry, but in my opinion, watching Fox v. Fox 1v1 no items FD for the 10,000,000th time is way more boring. Like, a lot of rushdown characters are flashy and cool the first time you watch them, but once you know their combos and their tools, one rushdown match is similar to another.

[@baki9191]

fox v fox 1v1 no items FD. Spoken truly like a scrub.

[@videowatcher20000]

Comment

[@myboy_]

Idk what you're talking about new puffs getting big upsets, theres only two besides hbox in top100 and one doesn't travel

[@bubbastevegarcia2459]

All of the fucking orchids play the same way doing the same thing over and over again

[@Localpref416]

I'd just like to say stalling in melee is only wack when you play puff. Its in the game so whatever, but imagine if a character in unist could just remove there hurt box for 15seconds whenever they want.

[@ividboy7616]

I just think people hate defensive play in melee because puff is defensive and also broken. People didnt hate on Armada nearly as much as Hbox in his hayday I feel.

[@LettuceGod1]

I feel like defensive play in smash (ultimate) is hated because it’s super degenerate projectile spam or super degenerate running away. Defensive play in melee is definitely frowned upon solely because it’s the exact opposite of what that community stands for.

[@lzfsburner]

I tried smash ultimate for the first time. This was at school, hopped in with 4 others playing each other at once so I thought it was friendly. I block they got mad, I hit it's bad, I throw it's cheating, so I said the game is easy (to trigger em) then left. These are probably 24+ year olds...wtf

[@Clarkbardoone]

Ok I like defensive play styles in smash but I hate sonic. Because he does the same game plan the entire time. Fighting him feels like punching a wall until it breaks or until your hand brakes for 7 minutes.

[@SMSAceofSpades]

Sajam, I don’t need to see defensive game play at all. And before anyone says anything along the lines of “you’re just a no brain, rushdown head ass nigga” remember when ppl watched mk11 highlights when the game came out? Ppl were clowning on the game cause they were just watching injustice 2: MK edition. Now those same ppl are giving it a chance since they’re not seeing high lvl gameplay nowadays and thinking “oh, being good at the game means spamming projectiles and running”.

[@CC-fi3pp]

Zones are the most annoying.

[@benjihuynh2970]

I think most of the hbox hate is due to him, I don't fully understand it but that's just the feel I get. But the smash community does like some defensive play; I mean melee loves Zain and m2k and they approach much less than the Spacey mains. I don't remember if everyone hated zero, but he was very defensive.

[@Balloon410]

Look at how much fun these smash players are having: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oH_WeKOVpMyIp68#t=21m

[@hiroprotagonest]

No no you see, defensive play DOES have a place in games, and that place is 2nd. /s

[@Theyungcity23]

It's a team based party fighter with items with massive stages. It isn't designed to be a 1v1 fighter with no items which means there are countless unfun and unbalanced things to exploit. Someone playing defensively taking the fun out of it just shows the ridiculousness of the whole project of trying to make it into something that it just isn't. I watched smash Bros Evo. Not hype.

[@baki9191]

I agree with you but it doesn't matter because of the thousands of people who play that game competitively DO like the game with a competitive ruleset. I think the people who hate defensive playstyles are mostly melee players though, which is a whole different discussion entirely. Matter of a fact, melee players encourage defensive players to play Smash Ultimate instead of Melee lol

Cool. Literally was the most viewed game at evo so clearly seen as a better game for spectating than tekken and street fighter. Lol fanboys can get in their feelings all they want but yall can barely outnumber their older brother of a game in melee.

[@SimplyBmcHD]

Smash isn’t a real fighting game that’s why. It’s a fighting game adjacent. The platform setting and time difference means there is little to no punishment for backing away all the time, so it just becomes lame for lame sake

[@numa2k147]

Not gonna lie as soon as I play against someone who's trying to lame me out I lose all interest. It's very boring and I dont even get angry or salty, I just wanna move on

[@callmetravesty8762]

Sorry if I'm ignorant but can't the smash community just set the time to 2 mins like civilised folk? I swear that's an option.

[@tyler-xo3rb]

Don't really understand flaking about Smash in this context, since the game is so WILDLY different when it comes to this topic. With the leniant applict of the ruleset, you can win SO EASILY by doing little to nothing. Most players just have enough respect for themselves to not play Puff, get four back airs and pound away/ledge stall for the rest of the match. Different than being in a confined stage. That's different than "defensive play."

[@andylawlzz]

Your attitude is garbage.

[@dylanh.3793]

Smash feels annoying because there’s such a strong emphasis on projectiles. There’s not a lot of reward for getting in your opponent’s face. Idk man, I just wanna be able to FIGHT people in a FIGHTING GAME. Not this snowball throwing circus bs.

[@GuiltyBystander8]

Smash is not a fighting game.

[@jeffkc93]

What is smash?

[@GuiltyBystander8]

@@jeffkc93 Smash is a party game. Sakurai himself has said multiple times that Smash is not a fighting game.

[@greatestgamer00]

I see like minded people . RESPECT. sakurai himself is with us.

[@Chaoskae]

Smash is a fighting game. Let it go bro

[@Matt-dp7ze]

Swagno Nitram intentionality doesn’t mean actuality

[@danaltamirano2546]

The reason of Smash players hating defensive playstyle is simple: Brawl.