It's Important that Burnout is Very Punishing in Street Fighter 6

[@WrathMilten]

If burnout isnt punishing there isn't a point to it being there

[@00ffc8]

​@@EWGFenjoyer??? you want even more 2mk drc?

[@ricardoludwig4787]

I also think that burnout has the most interesting mechanic for stun instead of just "hey I hit you a bunch"

[@fissilewhistle]

Yeah, old stun was wack.

[@BilliamTorpedo]

Watching sf5 streams where someone got bodied so hard that the opponent got a free combo kept me from picking up the game. Made no sense to me.

[@YiddishDancingClown]

That awareness to not let Phenom get a bar of super was insane.

[@ZaoJin]

internet mfs when SF6 came out: "green dash broken! DI broken! spam all day!" internet mfs now: "burnout too punishing! can't spam green dash/DI all day!"

[@maximumdeejay]

Can't win with these people mane.

[@LemurLegiCZ]

From a casual POV burnout feels a lot more OK than stun from SF5 cuz at least I'm not punished for not knowing the game/interactions in enemy's offense. I can accept a burnout as a consequence of my own actions much easier than getting steamrolled in SF5.

[@BBGunRenegade]

Stun in a game with V-trigger was the worst because it made the comeback factor of V-trigger worse than it would've been without it. I don't like snowball mechanics in games that also have comeback mechanics because it generally makes the comeback mechanics a little too overbearing

[@TrophyJourney]

Honestly SFV shouldn't even be allowed in the same sentence as SF6.

[@BHS289]

It feels way better to weather the opponent’s assault and they weaken themselves for it than to be beating someone who activates VT for losing and they kill you (obv more to it than that ofc)

[@ngubod16]

'Cus at least I'm not punished for not knowing the game/interactions on enemy's offense' That's not entirely true though. Its just as easy to get burnt out in this game on defense. You can lose 2 bars just from blocking 2 headbutts. And before you say, oh just parry, sometimes it's not good to parry because they can bait it with the short version and you eat a punish counter throw/command grab. Learning both offensive and defensive situations in this game is crucial.

[@Ketsuekisan]

@@ngubod16 "sometimes it's not good to parry because they can bait it" If parry isn't good because it can be baited, then *no* option that can be baited is good, and that is just an absolutely absurd idea.

[@horribleoscar9443]

I have this problem with SF6 where the opponent gets a KO on me and then they win the round, like automatically. It’s very uninteractive and it happens all the time, like multiple times per set. I don’t know why the game doesn’t have any counterplay for it, it’s a glaring design fault and always makes people angry.

[@3XHS]

This is a good joke

[@thepuppetmaster9284]

Lol good one xD

[@harrylane4]

You should be able to reversal KOs

[@UncleMerlin]

Unironically what happens in Guilty Gear

[@Giraffinator]

A coach I paid 500 dollars an hour for once told me that the counter play to losing was winning and that's when fighting games finally clicked for me and I gave up entirely.

[@shmixedNshmooved]

I like how for over a decade people complained to bring back a guard gauge or just a punishment for blocking like in the alpha series and when we finally get that the complaint is "why can't I just block it??" Or "why does blocking suck in this game?"

[@Boyzby]

It's kinda different when your offensive and defensive meters are the same

[@ShjadeNexayre]

@@Boyzby It makes sense though. If you gas out punching, your arms are going to feel like lead trying to block, too.

[@thepuppetmaster9284]

Lol ikr. I probably one of the few people who were happy when the first Capcom showed empty drive gauge = burnout because it reminds me of Alpha series.

[@TonyTheTGR]

This is an offense player vs. defense player thing; and the compelling argument here is that you can spend this meter either way, just not both at once all the time.

[@Angel7black]

Ive NEVER complained about this and have through gaurd gauge has been an awful mechanic since alpha 3

[@ahmcha357]

I love how this also ties into the previous “dunking too much on your game is a bad thing to do” video. Real consistency in the Sajam continuity.

[@deadfr0g]

I may operate based on vibes, but my vibe-based operations are principled. 🧐

[@patricklorran1960]

5:27 i'm glad Sajam said it. I've said that the drive system is the best universal mechanic I've seen in a fighting game. Of course it needs some tweaking Of course some DR are freaking stupid, and so on. But no matter the level of play You're always on the edge of burning out, always thinking if it's worth it to dump meter, if your super will leave the opponent burnt out, etc. I personally love the general ideia

[@Scorvy]

I'm not much of a podcast guy but I really enjoy listening to Sajam talk about random fighting game stuff

[@spidersonic0110]

He's a commentator, so being enjoyable to listen to is a part of his job

[@fissilewhistle]

I like hearing him roast people for staying dumb shit.

[@babalovesyou]

​@@spidersonic0110 he is a commentator BECAUSE he is enjoyable to listen to.

[@Calhasnopals]

Broski plays a character with no defence, if he says we need burnout, we need burnout (He is spreading the AKI propaganda) (I am on his side)

[@ChuckPickle]

Broski is cool.

[@TheSirDuck]

Broski is cool. AKI is cool

[@Digital.midori]

While that is true, an optimal Aki also is one of the biggest benefactors of burn out so of course he’d say that lol

[@bwnnn]

​@@Digital.midoriI think you mean beneficiary. True, her burnout pressure is pretty strong.

[@Digital.midori]

@@bwnnn yes, that word thanks

[@katalysis]

The general fact being discussed here is that players are often not good game designers.

[@Neohampster]

If you hate crouching kick drive rush you should want burnout to be more punishing. Also I notice nobody wants as many outs as the FGC. Like "how could I have escaped this situation?" You can't. You wouldn't be able to. Your escape is to not be in that situation. The time to correct your actions isn't when you're stuck in a tree with a bear at the bottom. It's when you walked past the fucking sign warning you about bears.

[@nonemitigation]

"you get too punished for being in burnout" is one of those opinions that lets me know i've become a boomer. i remember when everyone's big issue was when fighting games would have like ten mechanics per-game designed to make snowballing impossible, now everyone's mad that you can actually get punished for making really bad decisions?

[@rheawelsh4142]

I think some people just got used to using drive as a crutch in neutral and are just mad that doing so isn't a free win

[@Hyziant]

People complain about drive rush and yet also complain about burnout being strong. bro, the 3 bars for dr cancel threatening burnout is like the whole balancing thing.

[@demonkingnobunaga]

"Fighting games are strike/throw, and mixups are strikes that are hard to see" My brain just expanded

[@BBGunRenegade]

This is why I love Street Fighter 6, the drive gauge and burnout create so many interesting decisions to be made mid match.......and also why the game is suoer hard. The mental stack is ridiculous but that ultimately leads to more depth longterm when people start to get better at optimizing this stuff.

[@webadagrande]

this game is not hard? not hard at all wtf u mean dude

[@jaskaranbajwa8443]

@@webadagrande One day the FGC will learn that making a game easy to get into doesn't mean the complexity diminishes at even an intermediate level

[@blastimbre]

​@@webadagrandeA few months ago all the pros were complaining about how hard the metal stack in this game is.... Execution is not the only part of fighting games.

[@YunisRajab]

@@webadagrande do you only define difficulty as input execution and having less tools? Don't you think having more tools makes things more difficult?

[@webadagrande]

@@YunisRajab i mena everything in this game decision making is literally rushdow nur oponent till he gets burnout cause he had to def everybody does ez combos that do 70% of the health theres no complexity no matter where u look at it u guys are dilusional

[@philipkelly7369]

That tweet by Broski is legendary, I like him even more now

[@deadfr0g]

0:13 His acorn analogy cracks me up because it‘s note-for-note _exactly_ the standard conservative politics layer 1 argument against social assistance. In real life, I think that everyone should have food. 🥲 In fighting games? I want my opponents to STARVE. 👹

[@ellagage1256]

I know multiple people already make this joke, but my favorite kind of Sajam video is one that's about something he covered months ago... and then a few months before that...

[@libertarianvoter]

Complaining about burnout being too punishing is like complaining about your HP hitting 0 being too punishing. The scrub mentality is always to complain first and adapt never.

[@cykablyat6348]

the problem with it are mostly the 65% combos becoming 100% (atleast thats my problem, but if u play with a reversal lvl 1 characters it feels better)

[@strategist9]

Part of the reason I think the Drive Gauge and Burnout is so interesting is that both you AND the opponent have control over it. It feels rare to have resources that opponents have any kind of influence over. Outside of like the GRD in Under-Night or....uh....I guess TAC in Marvel 3 technically? Having to keep track of your resource AND your opponents leads to so many other situations, like the one Sajam points out here. And then having to keep track of their super meter on top of that....yeah it's a lot, but it makes the game a lot richer. I won't say SF6 is perfect, but it feels like something Capcom thought long and hard about when making it, and the end result is this game feels way more fully-formed and balanced out of the gate than a lot of other fighters that really needed patches to come into their own. Makes me excited for this game's future.

[@syrelian]

Agreed, I remember a comment from when the game launched going "I just wish I could use EX moves the whole match without being at risk constantly" and I simply said "You can, just Earn It, offensive pressure will help you rebuild Drive, so fight for it" And like, thats a fundamental play-loop thing, Drive as a resource is freely available unlike super meter, but its also something you need to work intently to maintain instead of stockpiling with safety tactics like whiffing normals full screen

[@soldier257]

Its crazy to me how ppl get super judgmental about new system mechanics every single time, complaining its “ruined neutral,” when the meta still isnt fully figured out and we havnt had a real major update. Ppl just whining for clickbait views.

[@carlosaugusto9821]

I've tried thinking about that. Maybe because this is a gaming genre with very traditional tendencies, that factor ends up making a stronger influence in some people's minds and making them just hostile to new things in general. Because that new thing is unfamiliar, so they won't count in their experience and the whole community's experience ("tradition")... Also in some cases it's really rough as it comes out and needs constant polishing over time, which makes it an easy target for those people. The main problem and contradiction here is that that those people stick to the definitive version of previous games as references to judge a new game's new and different idea, which doesn't make sense and will naturally often cause unfair judgements. The first dash mechanic in fg history came from Art of Fighting in 92, and it wasn't good, but many companies liked the idea and keep improving it, and now it looks like something that SF shouldn't ever leave. Supers too, also invented by AOF and it's an important part of fgs, that even 3d fgs adopted recently. The famous "Third Strike parry" is exactly that... the Third Strike version of the parry, that was invented earlier but it was worse and was just polished for the update that is 3S. And some of those critical people even know of that history and evolution of mechanics... They are just biased for their childhood fg roots and refuse to respect new ideas and their own time to be polished.

[@Varnicrast]

This is unrelated to the topic, but 3:30 reminded of a discussion I saw where someone firmly believed that reversal on wakeup is something only new players and scrubs do. While I think they were correct that unrefined players can lean too hard on wakeup reversals, the attacks are risky, not inherently wrong, and even top players will sometimes jump your ass with a wakeup super.

[@Eaode]

I recently watched a TNS where the commentator FLIPPED OUT when one of the players "went for it" and did dp without meter. I was so confused like.... you gotta do that sometimes??

[@Stammered]

I havent seen the video yet but I'm going to post an angry response to this anyway

[@kristianjensen5877]

That is the way.

[@eyy_man1162]

👑

[@carlosaugusto9821]

KZbin comments meta

[@matrix3509]

Burnout criticism can pretty much all be boiled down to this thought: "I don't want to have to think about what actions to take beyond the very instant I do them. Having to think about what might happen 10 seconds in the future as a result of my actions in the present hurts my tiny little pea brain and I don't like it."

[@sloesty]

Im happy he explained the ken plays. Made me appreciate it so much more. Meter and drive are two things i dont think about enough. Im always surprised when insee somebody super for seeminglt no reason, and then i see they burned out the enemy

[@cylondorado4582]

6:10 Nah, I agree with all the people that say they should get rid of all the throws and mixups in Tekken 8. Every game should be like a Jigglypuff mirror match.

[@Raxyz_0]

I replied to someone in that Broski tweet. The guys response was, and I quote: "Resource management? This isn't an RPG bro 🤣🤣" So... Yeah... I think that perfectly encapsulates the kind of people that says that burnout is "boring" or similar.

[@Romancesymphony]

Is being in burnout fun? I don't think it is.

[@Raxyz_0]

@@Romancesymphony About as fun as getting headshotted in CS after going through the double door in Dust2. In other words: it's fun for the other side to see someone else screw up royally.

[@syrelian]

Bro out here ignoring the Super Meter thats been key to Street Fighter since Super Turbo and was fundamentally a managed resource in Alpha and 3

[@Romancesymphony]

@@Raxyz_0 And you don't think it needs adjusting at all in a balance patch? I'm glad that it's not at the level of the common Deejay's head exploding every 20 seconds, but it's still just a bit too much sometimes. Just replacing this game's stun mechanic with an Injustice/Strive stage transition with fixed damage sounds fine to me.

[@thepuppetmaster9284]

@@Romancesymphony Burnout doesn't needs adjustment at all because it's a crystal clear risk and reward mechanic. But it also add some mind games because people with Drive gauge will become more agressive towards their burnout opponent, one example like they will hurry to DI you in the corner in order to stun you and you can take advantage from this situation to punish their DI with a Super or a throw. And i don't think Injustice stun mechanic or Strive stage transition will work in SF 6, especially when that two games has very different core gameplay and universal mechanics compare to SF 6.

[@braindent6464]

watching this kinda makes me wish tekken 8 would be harsher on people who spend their heat instantly

[@BronzeAgePepper]

or better yet, grant some defensive buff for carrying Heat to the next round. but that'd be hard to implement as one meter mechanic is already a lot for Tekken, especially when we already have the dubiously thought-out Rage mechanic to go with it

[@personaxlity]

I’m coming to terms that most of the FGC isn’t as intelligent as they believe themselves to be. Very few people are actually qualified and creative enough to take part in these conversations. It’s just too easy to say “new game bad, I miss neutral” and the neutral is right there.

[@yugimumoto1]

Honestly that's part of why I ended up going to uni. Grd is such a cool mechanic.

[@bbyowll]

The drive system is what caught my eye and made me want to try this game. My first fighting game.

[@ericjackman1143]

Firstly, looking dapper here :D Secondly, I've been playing fighting games since 2002 and learned how to play fairly well with the release of Street Fighter 4. When I first saw the breakdown of the drive gauge, my mind was absolutely BLOWN. All of the best options throughout Street Fighter's history are now linked to a separate resource that everyone has access to? Amazing. We have focus attack, FADC, parry, alpha counters, etc all tied to one resource. I'm a huge tabletop gamer and this mechanic tickled my medulla because of how alive it feels. The discovery period of this game was some of the most fun I've had. It's still fun when the game becomes "solved" but I loved being part of cracking the code. I haven't had this much fun with a fighting game since Central Fiction. Street Fighter 6's worst things are the costume situation, an anemic first year of release characters (I think they should have had one more) and the unwillingness to just slightly SLIGHTLY nerf the top tiers and give some stimulus checks out to the lower tiers by month 6. Drive rush is annoying sure, but you adapt and just realize the Dee Jay can play neutral from across the screen. Love this game

[@goldenboy_808]

I love burnout being so punishing it helps to balance the hyper aggressive nature of SF6

[@carlosaugusto9821]

And i hope burnout becomes even more damaging in future updates

[@BasicallyGoblin]

Oh, absolutely. In fact, I wish burnout was MORE punishing for characters like Luke & Ken.

[@JohnGuyJohn]

Luke can kind of disregard his burnout it seems. That’d be fine if he was weaker in other ways. Fingers crossed.

[@zxadvent19]

Broski’s tweet should be shown every time you boot up the game.

[@JINcredible1]

I think burnout should be more punishing, make command grabs always do punish counter damage vs characters in burnout

[@kyaak7747]

MY LOYAL FANS

[@bqing87]

Yo. Here for it.

[@LegaLImmigrnt]

Thats until you get put into the blender by a Manon. Then you might change your mind.

[@genejas]

who's been giving the grapplers paint again

[@connorrose_0447]

WE CALLING OUR LOYAL FANS WITH THIS ONE 🔥🔥🔥💯💯💯

[@sleepyzeph]

um no excuse me, i want to do all my offense safely and do lots of damage but also be able to escape enemy offense easily and reliably.

[@carlosaugusto9821]

And proceeds to complain about offense when it gets overwhelming to his side

[@itstomis]

Noahtheprodigy: oh yeah? Well watch this!

[@Mage_Nichlas_]

James brought up Chip Kills recently and I personally hate Chip Kills *BUT* I think that Chip Killing is possible in Burnout is perfect. How fighting games are built, regardless of the meta, is that Strike beats Throw, Block beats Strike, and Throw beats Block. It doesn't really make sense to me and other players that at very low health: Throw beats Block *AND* Strike also beats Block. As hype as it can be for some moments for spectators, it doesn't really feel like a good idea that Blocking at 2% is fundamentally different from Blocking at 35% or Blocking at 100%(I Block the Strike = I don't die). However, it makes perfect sense that Blocking is different between Burnout and Drive Healthy. In Burnout, you are much weaker in terms of Offense(lack of Drive Rush and Drive Impact) and Defense(taking actual Chip Damage as well as lack of Drive Parry and Drive Reversal). It is your fault that you are in Burnout and you should be punished. You recognize that your character has changed states and can accept that your options(including Blocking and taking no damage) are gone. It's the perfect way to have Chip Kills to actually have both players stay alert and have to think more critically about certain situations while not feeling that you're wrongfully killed for picking the option that was correct for the first 98% of your lifebar.

[@syrelian]

I mean, that dynamic of "low HP changes the math on actions" applies to most things you can do in the game, you throwing out a high risk move at full health is absolutely a different assessment then doing that when you have 20% and could die to even a half-assed punish

[@NotLawrence]

ngl, I thought burnout was referring to not liking something after doing it too much instead of the sf6 mechanic lol

[@GuelermeDias]

I think the only issue with burnout is how quickly some characters can put you in that state compared to others, the mechanic itself is good and if you make it less punishing then the game just goes the way of "fuck it we DR".

[@MUGENanaya]

in a way thats a weirdly good thing as it provides a vector of balance, though of course it needs to be tweaked properly x character might be good at mixups but their drive pressure is middling, y conversely has to take huge risks to open you up but can at least supplement it with really good pressure that drains drive

[@WiqidBritt]

It's just funny to hear that this game is 'nothing but button into drive rush' complaints and also 'burnout shouldn't be checkmate' complaints.

[@pockystyx4087]

I honestly find burnout to be a much more engaging system than the standard stun system on older SF games. Its super punishing; and is a huge snowball effect if you're in the corner or unprepared to deal with chip. But then again; with the way it works, it rewards you for thinking on your feet if you're ready to be in burnout. Being more aggressive being the way to recover the gauge was also a smart decision, since it can lead to some crazy comebacks where the burnout player catches an overly eager opponent trying to close out a match. To me; its perfect the way it is, super punishing, but incredibly rewarding. The only drive systems that could be touched up are certain drive rushes being oppressive, and maybe patching up drive reversal a tad bit. But other than that? I feel like its lower tier character buffs over system changes for season 2 being my most wished for aspect.

[@lintecassidy206]

Sf6 didn’t hold my attention personally but the drive system is without question the coolest mechanic I’ve seen in a fighting game in years, would love to see more close analysis of gauge management situations and how players are learning to interact with it.

[@thearchaeas]

I love SF6 so much. The situations the game puts you in almost always feel dynamic/fun. I love 3S, I loved 4, but SF6 is my favorite.

[@SquidwardProfilePic]

I honestly don’t think burnout isnt punishing enough. Grapplers in burnout are helpless but guile and JP in burnout isn’t even that bad. Make projectiles have a little more startup and a little more recovery while in burnout and I think that would even the playing field considerably

[@marlinmurrell620]

Honestly, not a bad idea.

[@buff00n3ry]

That's why I like Drive Gauge so much It disrupts what's "supposed" to be Street Fighter neutral that hardened SF veterans are used to

[@makaisonn7030]

This just comes down to meter management.

[@borys3108]

Jamie crouching light punch into heavy punch got me to diamond just mokey spamming that shit the second People got in burnout.

[@baldbishop1667]

😂same here punishing those DRC Spam. Is necessary.

[@baynana6911]

My man sajam out here way ahead of his time preaching the Truth. So many people on Reddit or Twitter could learn from you.

[@chimpmasterflex]

Views like this will often be skewed by what character(s) a person plays I feel. Even though Broski's take is grounded imo, I don't think it accounts for the characters who can play largely the same in burnout like luke. I am of the opinion, that burnout is too punishing in some ways, and not enough in others, but even most of that comes down to character specifics. Like I'm actually tired of seeing meter dump combos, and I'm also tired of how somewhat common the "80 second checkmate" rounds seem to be (even in round 1). And yet, I also want burnout to last longer. Even that just makes the issue even worse, but I'm not sure how else to go about it. As cool as the drive system is, it is incredibly difficult to balance, or even to tweak.

[@tommullings9912]

this kind of analysis is why we love you sajam.

[@VaxistheWindow]

I haven't gotten SF6 yet but the Drive system seems really cool and well thought out, makes me excited to try the game

[@doctordice2doctordice210]

Honest answer? The system is like 92% perfect, all it needs is drive rush having any form of risk

[@VaxistheWindow]

@@doctordice2doctordice210 hey 92% definitely isnt bad, but from what Ive seen DR definitely seems very safe most of the time

[@doctordice2doctordice210]

@@VaxistheWindow hey it's totally isn't, it just needs a tweak but that's it As someone who's put a good 300 hours into the the only big issues I have the game is that o don't find the aesthetic appealing and I find the roster too plain currently

[@VaxistheWindow]

@@doctordice2doctordice210 yeah the aesthetics are cool not totally my thing but I like that they went for a strong visual style, but I agree about the roster most of the characters don't jump out at me as someone I'd click with immediately

[@manuelsputnik]

@@doctordice2doctordice210 They really need a bigger roster. Ed is cool. Hopefully Akuma and season 2 revitalize the game

[@limb-o7180]

drive system is very deep but I think it makes the win cons in that game too homoginzed. Unlike in a game like GGST, nago can have 1 HP but 0 blood and the match is till winnable, or GL with 50 burst or may with a CH 6H or ABA with 100 gauge or HC in positive bonus.

[@MelloGrunty]

i'm ready for an april fools gamemode yesterday where all drive mechanics are accessible with 0 cost and we see how ass this game would be if we never had to reap what we sow. but the clips would be funny at least

[@ryo-kai8587]

lol, 15 DRC's later in your 46-hit combo where every attack is at 1% scaling

[@ddreamlezz]

A bit late but being a pretty new player for the FGC, starting out in SFV i felt like stun was really strong playing against strong players as its just "oh i hit u a lot, now stun" while in SF6 u have to get to burnout then also be in the corner for stun which feels more fair

[@Mene0]

Man I fucking love the drive gauge. It's so cool to have ex moves and supers be on diferent meters, and have one full form the start while the other is empty makes for very cool management

[@ChickenCrazy7]

having a system where you're punished for being reckless in an age where fighting games are becoming more and more aggressive is a beautiful thing.

[@yoshitsune5691]

It’s actually how I made it to 1800mr in sf6, is by letting my opponent burn themselves out 😂

[@spidersonic0110]

I'll be honest after all these years I still don’t know what a "strike-throw" fighting game is. I haven't heard a definition that makes sense to me.

[@CosetteTape]

You're on the bad side of an oki situation and you're gonna have to 50/50 taking the throw or getting blowed up because the opponents has a pure advantage.

[@bwnnn]

Fundamentally, oki situations are just rock paper scissors between strike, throw, and block. That RPS is what people call strike/throw, because strike and throw are the two options that the attacker has. Think about when you're getting throw looped in SF6. Every time you wake up, you're guessing whether the opponent will hit you or throw you. Hence, strike/throw. Strike beats throw, throw beats block, block "beats" strike (the defender just doesn't eat a combo and maybe gets their turn back). So the RPS is in the attacker's favor. Many games throw in some more complications, like different types of strike that require different blocking (low/high, left/right), invincible reversals to keep the attacker on their toes, defensive option selects like delayed throw tech, or special blocks like SF6 parry and anime/marvel pushblock. These mechanics all add more layers to the mind games, but fundamentally it's still RPS. Is the attacker going to strike or throw?

[@DaddysFlipside]

Man, people just like to whine about everything don't they. I personally love sf6 and the drive system might just be my favorite mechanic in a FG ever. It's immediately intuitive even if you know nothing about the genre, it's very flexible and it leads to many so many different and often traditionally unusual situations.

[@BrotherCheng]

I think the burnout issue highlights some inequalities among the characters. There are characters in the game where you have to use meter to do any real damage or pressure, and then you get punished for just playing the game by an opponent who can chip you out and checkmate you. That said, Ken is not one of those characters who needs meter for offense lol.

[@TizOnly1]

I have no problem with strike/throw.. but not all games are strike/throw. Most older games had chip damage, which on its own promotes action beyond just strike/throw.. CvS2/Alpha 3 (an aside.. the real spiritual predecessors to SF6) also had a guard bar which fundamentally shifts the game away from a strict strike/throw game. Versus games certainly have strike/throw interactions.. but the game is fundamentally about movement versus space control.. and I'm assuming this is what the pushback on the KOF example was about.. yeah KOF has a LOT of strike/throw in it (stagger low pressure, to bait tech attempts and frame trap), but A) most players are bad and don't do that stuff and B) the game at least FEELS like it's way more about freedom of movement versus limiting your opponents' freedom of movement. Ofc.. I'd also argue that SF6 is much more about controlling movement and resource management than it's about strike/throw anyway.

[@loikous5549]

People should just play in practice mode with infinite health and meters at this point...

[@MiraiGen]

SF6 is already aggressive as hell, if you can just throw people out of burnout then everyone will be twice as crazy aggressive

[@pasdan4985]

I don’t play SF6 but I think this whole situation is interesting given that there is a game right now with a similar dynamic to drive gauge burnout where it’s a lot more overtuned, which is rising

[@JohnXuandou]

Don't agree with the assessment that KoF is a strike/throw game, it's more like KoF is about the RPS of varying strike options (hop vs check vs run in) and throw exists like overheads in most other games. Throw is not the primary decision tool you're playing around, it's a pocket option that can give you screen positioning. Because of how throw invulnerability works in KoF, tick throws are generally a poor option unless you have a specifically slow command throw that will get around throw invuln windows, which for most characters also means being open to getting buttons pushed against you, with the exception of grapplers who have invincible throws which is why they get to run command throw mixups etc etc etc etc. When you watch high level KoF, besides the grapplers and Iori, you'll almost never see someone throwing people, and throw loops or throw mix (frame trap/tick throw/shimmy options) in the same way that Street Fighter has does not exist by design, it's not a real option. Throw is more of a defensive option than it is an offensive one, especially in KoFXV where wakeup throw is given priority over meaty normals.

[@SupermanSajam]

Yeah but I’m boiling it wayyyy down. Like truly strike throw is all the video game is in every fighting game’s case. Even as you mentioned here, KOF is interesting in how hops create openings for your strike and it has legit left right/overhead low but also it has RPS enabled around strikes vs it’s movement tools. And yeah wakeup throw and how to beat wakeup throw are also such a huge part of the game. I also think it’s why it sucks that KOF is labeled hard all the time by stuff like the trials videos because I actually think it’s one of the easiest fighting games to “get”. Like you learn basic RPS behind short hops, close normal into command normal, and 2b 2b special move confirm and you’re good to go. The game’s ideas being so universal makes learning it simple and intuitive for lots of characters.

[@JohnXuandou]

@@SupermanSajam tbh even at its most bare essentials KoF is still more of a strike/strike game IMO, the threat of guard crush is more real than most characters' throw option and you're even more likely to just not block the offense or challenge wrong I also agree that the overall system of KoF is very simple and learning the system is bigger than learning any individual character, when you know how to play KoF you just adapt a character into how they fit into KoF, it's why many high level players can play basically the entire roster at a highly proficient level

[@SupermanSajam]

@@JohnXuandou Yeah this also how I think about a lot of vs games too. Where it’s really just strikes because the power level of them is so much higher than throws on offense. Because getting somebody to sit still is unlikely and your offense is so strong you might as well just strike them to death in most scenarios anyway.

[@YukonJack]

"How do I escape this?" Hero burst, obviously.

[@antonsundin2974]

The only thing i don't like about burnout currently is that it's rarely worth it to hang on to half a bar because the opponent will just make you block something and you'll burnout anyway. So in those situations it's like "meh i might as well just drive rush cancel for the extra damage when i have the chance". Not sure how you would fix it... maybe make it so you can't actually go into burnout from blocking, you can only be be put down to a sliver of a bar left. In order to burnout you have to actually get hit by something or you have to put yourself in it. But obviously this is a massive change that might cause serious ramifications to how the game is played as whole for the worse.... but it's something i'd like to try at least.

[@YggLart]

I just love hearing Sajam talking avout anything but specially when its to praise the game I love with insights :)

[@_TRUNKS]

I heckin love sajam man. Amazing analysis and a breath of fresh air in the constant stream of negativity in games. Really such an inspiration for the future of fighting game content creators like myself to foster fun and positive communities while also having the capacity to be critical of the games we love and play

[@The_Gyce]

Every day this game games more technical and interesting. You love to see it.

[@teasticky]

are there really any fighting games that exist without some level of strike throw? like the three core mechanics present in all fighting games are strike, throw, and blocks. you can boil down most fighting games into those three functions, everything else in the game is a variation of those three things that make the game interesting

[@ProfKisuto]

Managing your drive gauge is interesting. Risk / reward gameplay rules so hard.

[@thepuppetmaster9284]

I saw some people said Capcom should delete burnout from the game or claim it's the worst mechanic in SF / fighting game history and i just lol'd. These people doesn't want to do meter management or get don't want to get punished for going all unga bunga spending all drive gauge early in the match.

[@saado99]

It baffles me people complain about burnout being too oppressive, I honestly think it needs to hurt way more. Some characters fight too well in burnout (eg. luke), players have gotten really good at buffering super and throwing DIs. I think it should last longer, or my idea is to take away two whole drive stocks or only make them recover half right after burnout.

[@JusRed48]

I started playing with HD Remix and I remember being very confused at how I would get messages on Xbox Live from people complaining that I throw them lmao

[@nee869]

I watched this video like right after street fighter 6 came out. Still good video though, the FGC always needs stuff thats not negativity

[@WutTheDeuceGaming]

Strike/throw isn't a bad thing. The process of how you get there is where things are problematic. For example, Ken landing a single combo that instantly corners you. That imo is where issues with 50/50 arise. I think people are generally ok with it as long as you have to work for it. Landing a single sequence for it however, it feels undeserving and gets dull really quickly. Another example would be Blanka popping his install. He can corner you ON BLOCK while simultaneously taking tons of drive gauge with it. You can take zero hits, yet he just gets all that gauge damage and positioning. Risk vs reward, and amount of effort is what I think determines whether or not strike/throw becomes a problem. Pair these easy corner routes with burnout, it becomes pretty easy as to why people really get annoyed with these systems. And then throw loops become a thing on top of all that. Atm, I think it'd be a good idea to bring down the instant aggression this game currently has. It's really easy for the person on offense, and absolutely miserable for the defender. Making one mistake in this game is extremely punishing.

[@richardjohnson8991]

Can anyone provide an example of a game that isn't strike throw? To me it seems like those are quite literally the only two options so this feels like a weird discussion every time it comes up

[@wynnjones2435]

People acting like strike\throws are the worst thing is just like admitting you don't like being hit, which is okay but just find a better way to say it lol. Like brother if there is no way to actually open you up then how's the game supposed to be played?

[@LonghairMcBeard]

Im 36, I've played almost every Street Fighter except for 1, and Alpha 1 and the early SF3 versions. I didn't like 5, I didn't really like 4 until the end. My favourites are Alpha 2 and CVS2. Every game was complained about, I can't believe the amount of whining that goes on - it's almost always just salt and not analysis. You almost never hear people talk in detailed examples just feelings based arguments. I think Street Fighter 6 is the most exciting game in the series, it's fun and the decision making is complex. Back in the beta I thought the drive system was genius. I agree with Daigo that an overly defensive game becomes too rote over time and leads to passive play. It's better to have an aggressive game where interaction is encouraged than a passive game where interaction is punished. This game is also excellent at communicating what's happening visually resulting in a good viewing experience. SF6 does cater to different play styles contrary to popular belief but it's just a faster version of each style. You can play patiently, Luke 2MP is the patient mans button, but the game is fast giving you less time to think and with a lot more to think about. Rush down is abundant it's true but you can play JP, Sim or Guile - no one wants to though. They're called anti fun, too passive.

[@GuyN0ir]

Burnout is punishing me really hard in SF6 right now. I’ve played the game once in the last three months :(

[@maximumdeejay]

It is supposed to.

[@akev2794]

My main criticism of the burnout state isn't the state itself, it's the fact that the one more likely to be in burnout is often the one trying to be aggressive first, so it ends up being a mechanic that punishes aggression more than overly defensive play.

[@doctordice2doctordice210]

Isn't one of the biggest complaints of sf6 that it's mindlessly agressive with no depth? Isn't this a good thing?

[@marlinmurrell620]

Exactly ​@@doctordice2doctordice210

[@naklyaFGC]

Lets just remember that not everyone can force a burnout as easily, that ken was close the the cr. Mk was the way to go, However, even full screen fireball drive rush into all those jinrai kicks would have worked, not everyone can fly through the screen so that’s something to think about🤔

[@Hemestal]

If anything it should be even more punishing. If players had no incentive to conserve DR, then everyone would go haywire, DR away like mad men, you could kiss neutral good bye for good

[@triplemardito]

Love this high level info. Great video

[@reeeeeeee-e2g]

If burnout is not THAT punishing then the top-tiers will just be even more top-tiers. Dee-jay and juri comes to mind. Then the rest of the cr. Mk to DRC characters. That's already happening but imagine if that's not a mistake but an actual decision.

[@kye4216]

I put myself in burnout 5-10 seconds into every round. If I can get good playing like that imagine how sick I would be if I didn’t play like a monkey.

[@LanceAxel]

The problem isn't burnout the problem is that Luke in burnout is better than half the cast with full meter, the game's top end is so lopsided

[@doctordice2doctordice210]

Really? Because for the longest time a lot of the top tier's biggest sin is being well rounded while having specialized strengths Although I do agree that luke is obnoxiously close to perfect kit wise being a better ryu

[@mariomcp]

I think burnout does need to be punishing for sure, but I think one issue it does have is that it is a universal mechanic that is not applied universally in the game. Some characters are far superior at causing burnout, and some characters (often the same ones) are great at pressuring during it. Meanwhile other characters basically rely on the opponent putting themselves in burnout and then can barely do anything even if their opponent is in it.

[@cristian_rarg]

They should make every character Ryu, let the real players surface to the top.

[@TheGreektrojan]

Not to mention that some characters (often the same ones) can still function well/are dangerous in burnout while others basically have to play run away until its over. Capcom Cup was filled with Lukes yolo-ing themselves into burnout because even meterless Luke is a real threat. Luke is the best character in the game, in part, because of how impressively hard it is to actually put him into a disadvantageous situation.

[@insertcleverjoke8383]

Well sure but that's the case for most universal mechanics. Roman Cancels also benefit some characters more than others, but I don't think that's an issue with the mechanic, just a consequence of variety

[@thecoolkid440]

Characters interacting in unique ways with universal mechanics is part of what makes characters unique.

[@EXFrost]

Thats just how games work. Some characters have tools which excel at certain things while some have others. The drive guage and burnout rules are as universal as can be (outside of drive rush speeds and some specials doing more drive damage than others) so it comes down to the character design and strengths to determine that. Which is good game design

[@laku-tikku554]

Do you guys think that zangief having a more punishing burnout period is balanced compared to the rest of the cast

[@thepuppetmaster9284]

They already fixed this like months ago

[@maximumdeejay]

I dont think compared to guile it is but if they fixed it already then its cool.

[@prinyaz]

I honest hope they don't change the system mechanics much, or at all, in season 2.

[@doctordice2doctordice210]

My dear sajam, don't you know how this works? You're only allowed to discuss the complex good qualities of a fighting game once it's stops being the current one Now be a good boy and join the reductionist "literally every aspect of this game is the spawn of satan" herd

[@Orangestar1]

"KOF doesn't have strike/throw" oh man nobody show this guy the video of the Orochi Yashiro player who fished command grab 5 times in a row in neutral.

[@masterofdoom5000]

Ah third strike, or as I have to play it against parry hungry fools, third throw in a row.

[@tentayeprimo6674]

Was the player Daigo?

[@moil6384]

good analysis

[@Apemopo]

I agree! (Ken player)