Supermarket Refrigeration - Troubleshooting a Nightmare Oil Issue Part 1

[@JuanTodoli]

This goes directly to the Top 3 🤟 refrigeration videos I've seen so far (and I watch A WHOLE LOT) on the internet. Thank you very much for taking the time to film it. This is invaluable to newbies. The very best way to scare the hell of me 😨 when I started was sending me to troubleshoot oil issues (and a little bit still today). Kudos for your professionalism 👏

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

Thank you :)

[@RobertoGarcia-hn8ok]

He said if the tech replacing the oil filter does not install a schrader valve the next person to work on it will have sadness in their heart. 😢

[@hectorserrano4340]

So far this is the best video I’ve ran across explaining oil failure and return issues. Very informational from beginning to end. I stumbled across this video searching for videos on how to determine bad valve plates on a compressor which is unrelated to this video but that doesn’t mean that I didn’t learn anything from this video. I’ve been in supermarket refrigeration for 3yrs and still have a lot to learn. Us younger guys def need people like you and videos like this to help us become better techs. Great video 👍

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

Thanks I'm glad it help. I have a compressor troubleshooting guide on my channel that might help with your valve plate question God bless

[@blackhawkmp9]

You got hit on every direction on that one ! Kudos for seeing it through , a lot of technicians fear/don’t understand oil issues. Thanks for taking the time to make the video , really been enjoying your content.

[@user-pe6dd9wu5w]

Just started doing rack coming from commercial/residential so your vids are INVALUABLE brah! Please keep up the good work and keep on sharing, your knowledge is helping a lot of techs. Much appreciated! Mahalo!

[@paramboytv7378]

i learn so much every time, you are the n.1

[@filiphes1]

Great video, I am a HVAC technician, going to join the big boys in industrial and comercial refrigeration next month. This type of videos and information is gonna be pretty useful. Thank you

[@kevinoconnor2631]

Gotta love those middle of the night calls. That rack has to be a 1200 lb. R448 rack with 3 suction groups and 10 compressors.

[@juliochavez4028]

Good video bro! One thing I’ve noticed is that after leak searching, repairing and topping off the rack with refrigerant the one thing a lot of guys forget to do is topping off the rack with oil

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

Thanks for the comment This is an excellent observation :)

[@jonnyrottenshvacrchannel5884]

Typical rack issue grew into alot of issues. Good work sticking with it. Very informative.

[@dioncurtiscurtis3188]

Go home get some grub & do what you gotta do. I felt that.. you deserve all the free time you get. You encourage me to be a better tech. Keep up the good work 👍🏾

[@jrh86]

100 miles an hour on this one very interesting and extremely helpful thanks

[@scottriddle5468]

That was some great troubleshoot thank you for sharing

[@adammiller2246]

I have done supermarket refrigeration for over 30 years. I can spend hours telling stories of what I have seen

[@JJ-rg1ze]

Lol...the infinity valve

[@dbell41888]

Suction filters are good thing to check. Always good to remove after start ups. Look for zip tied springs close to the shells. Otherwise remove schrader and use a piece of silfoss to feel for it. So many times oil logging behind filters. Pump down rack and use hot gas of cool gas defrost if you suspect oil logging. You begin to know your systems after years of experience. Oil condition etc. Carlyle compressors no pickup screens like copelands. Nice to have all that time to do it correctly vs dispatch trying to get you to next call. We never would have used a vacuum pump. Back purge and go. Flood back is a rippin for sure. Looks like a dual temp rack. Fun when departments in store shutting off fans also because they are too cold! Go back tomorrow and find your turbashed full. So much more to comment on. Could go forever.

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

Thank you for the Comment. I appreciate the suction filter tip! :) That's not something I have encountered yet.

[@matthardiman9764]

You don't need a recovery machine. You have 10 of the on the rack. Just front seat a compressor and suck the refrigerant out.

[@adammiller2246]

The first thing I noticed is the heavy flood back on those compressors.

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

I made the video so long ago I can't remember if I went into it. But you are correct, it ended up also being a meat Cooler t x v pouring into the system.

[@mikekeever5157]

I'm just getting back into supermarket refrigeration and that is a good video after being away from it for about 20 years. Residential hvac doesn't teach you anything about this, lol.

[@jordanhenshaw]

"Residential hvac doesn't teach you anything about this, lol." - really? I only do resi and am following 90% of the stuff he is saying, although I do watch a lot of light-commercial vids from Chris.

[@romeoryan869]

Awesome video learned a lot thank you keep them coming!!!!🤙

[@terrytugwood7848]

Compressor 5 has got refrigerant flood back on it, that will wash the oil out of the compressor.

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

Thankyou for your comment. I actually adress this around 20 minutes in the video:)

[@mrdeparture6154]

I fucking love this trade.

[@scottdavis6717]

Hussmann call to set a differential valve with all compressor floats valved off and after bleeding line pressure into suction

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

Yes ! :)

[@tjotwo]

Thanks very much for doing this video. Lots of very helpful info!

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

I'm glad To help thank you for the encouragement :)

[@user-ut3uy3oo9u]

also maybe you flipped over to bubble from dew on pt chart when you were hitting buttons on your meter which would have been 15 deg from 25 deg?

[@Novar22]

I always thought I had to shut every compressor down and isolate the oil filter to change it. Correct me if I’m wrong I’m still pretty new

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

No you don't have to all the compressors will eventually fail on oil failure but if you're scared of that you can do that.

[@MarkP-ci2vg]

Just watched this ,I had same issue about 6 yrs ago,but back than I wasnt as knowledgeable as u r good job on explaining the system.what area do u work in ? I’m in swfl. Thanks Happy new year

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

Thanks man ! I don't really give out my exact location I'm paranoid that my videos will get taken down 😅. But i'm in the new england area.

[@leahcim38]

​@gendronhvac-r1269 I could tell u are close to me lol by the accent. 😂

[@klappy803]

Hight pressure oil systems, and surge tanks....what a pain in the ass, and messy. Throw an of-303-bp filter in there so you can still have oil when the customers refuse the yearly oil change. Oil systems suck.

[@MrJujubean]

That was a great video

[@yadvindersingh9104]

Thanks for detailed information

[@shawnphifer4979]

Man that was like a good lion call, touch one thing and the hole can of worms opened up…..fyi next time u get an infinite valve I’ve used the back end of a truck stock txv to get customers by…..thought I’d share

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

Thanks that's a great idea !!

[@CouchDad09]

great video looking forward to part 2 thanks

[@stephennichols4815]

Isn't carlye compressors oil level 1/8 to 1/4 sight glass oil level and if oil levels are high on that many compressors you have a problem with oil return line pressure reducing valve putting o8l line return pressure too high and causing all compressors to have hig oil levels and causing oil separator level to be low

[@gr82becool]

Nice Troubleshooting on that oil system. 👍

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

Thankyou !

[@shawnflanagan503]

Great video/example!! Killing it!!

[@CanogaHVACRLLC]

Great video. Thank you.

[@Reefertech]

I believe you have to valve off all the floats on the suction group you’re adjusting the Y valve and that will give you a true Oil pressure reading . After getting that pressure, then you adjust the Y valve. Maybe you didn’t show it, not calling you out. Just thought it’d be important to share.

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

Thankyou for the comment! I love when people share what they know it helps me and anyone watching learn. I have never heard of that. We're did you here that from the manufacturer or a fellow technician just wondering :)

[@Reefertech]

@@gendronhvac-r1269 So after speaking to a senior tech, he said they used to do it back with the old Y8 valves on the older Hussmann racks. He even showed me a procedure list from the manufacturer on how to set that valve( I wish I could attach a picture ). However, after speaking to a sporlan rep, he advised me the new Y1236-C valves no longer need to do that older procedure because they all come factory set at a 17 pound differential and you can adjust from there. Sorry for the confusion, just wanted to clear that up. As long as there is a differential, that’s probably all that matters.

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

@@Reefertech Thanks!! I appreciate the time you took to research and post :) I will keep it in mind when I'm dealing with older rack. This is the kind of commitment I want on my channel. Don't be afraid to share what you know ! I have learned alot through comments like these.

[@hg2.]

Min 23:20 Question: You went back downstairs and turned the evaporator coil in the walk-in cooler Back On, and came back upstairs to check the suction temperature, right?

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

Yes I first turned it off. Then I turned it back on and checked again. Both times I checked the temperature of the suction line going into the rack.

[@timothysambolin5293]

Loved all your videos, got me into switching to service and not installs. Mostly because it very educational in the best way service text and explain it🎉❤🎃

[@JayHughes-ls5zr]

Excellent content

[@jetlife9456]

That's how you do ir!

[@melchorimperial1408]

Refrigerant flood back?

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

Is is when the liquid refrigerant make it al the way back to the rack :) Hope that helps

[@user-ut3uy3oo9u]

Good video BUT you cant have negative superheat , no such thing. You had raw liquid and floodback for sure at the epr schrader but you can only be as cold as 0 deg superheat. So with your 25 deg sst evap the coldest at your epr could have been would be 25 deg (0 superheat.) Maybe your temp probe was off and needs to be calibrated? Just sayin.

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/enTciXpsbsRqedUsi=SgpMP-x-uVe-Z12F This is a video I have on negative super heat. it doesn't exist in a theoretical world. You are correct. It's technically impossible for a refrigerant Lose heat in a warmer environment. But I kept encountering this phenomena so I investigated it. You can encounter it due to refrigerant glide. If you have fled back. Your refrigerant can cause symptoms to make you believe that you have negative suprer heat. Also great catch. I definitely did not realize that in the moment of recording the video. :) Why don't you watch the other video if you have time and let me know if you agree with my conclusion on that one. I honestly love hearing What all you guys have to say. And I learn a lot every day from all of your comments!

[@rocker8692]

So if one compressor is off,does that mean that cases evaporator isn't to temperature?

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

Kind of, The problem with this oil issue is if that one compressor turns off. It will suck all the oil dry in the rack. It will pool in the compressor. Because it's off on an alarm. This will cause all the compressors to shut off during oil failure. That will then in turn cause the case will run warm. The suction group depends on all the compressors if Shuts off, it's not a big deal.The case could still be a temperature. It's when the one that shuts off causes problems for all the others. Hope that makes sense.

[@derrickenbuenosaires]

Man, all the enemies of oil return attacked your system lol low superheat (or no superheat) washing out your compressor, low charge and malregulated valves !

[@fullraph]

Why do some compressors have a fan on top and some don't?

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

Is typically low temp compressors. Of a certain kind of refrigerant need them. It depends on the manufacturer. But From my experience low temp high glide refrigerants need headfansfor sure.

[@tonetone1637]

So i have a Carlyle compressor on a 4 compressor rack and compressor 4 the last compressor in the line up is tripping on oil. My net pressure was 25 I check my ocv-30 valve charging the reservoir to 120psi and opening the vent line I got 25 psi above suction I was going to replace the valve but I just don’t think that what’s causing my compressor #4 failure. I did pump down check compressor held, and changed oil filters and have one ball float in reservoir.

[@tonetone1637]

Have you came along a issue like this?

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

Yeah I've come up crossings like this. 1) Did you check the filter going into the oil regulator. There's a little tiny screen going into the oil regulator or I'd heard it called an oil float. Sometimes this screen gets clogged. 2) Is there flood back from somewhere. You did a lot of checking on the oil system which. Is great so if you've concluded that the oil system is OK then? Did you check if there was flood back that's washing out your compressor. 3) I would isolate the compressor. And see if the suction side of the compressor Slowly rises to discharge Pressure. If the compressor is isolated and slowly rises the discharge that usually means that the read valves are no good or that there is some type of slippage going on inside. This will cause the compressor to fill up a liquid and sometimes trip. Anyway that's the direction I would go with it I hope that helps. !!

[@hg2.]

Min 3:30 - The Input to the oil separator is "in the back" of the oil separator, and you have the Red hose hooked up to it - ok, go it. - The (gas) Output of the oil separator comes out the top, BUT -- AT the hot gas differential valve, the hot defrost gas continues UP (confusing), while -- BEFORE the hot gas differential valve, the gas-to-condenser goes LEFT and eventually makes its way up to the condensers, probably on the roof. (???, also confusing) Have I got "the diagram" right?

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

No underneath the hot and gas differential valve is the hot gas header which is responsible for defrost for the system. Above the hot gas differential valve is the discharge that goes out to the condenser. I have a video called rack Refrigeration explained in 35 minutes it goes into more detail I don't know if you've watched that one. I hope this helps

[@hg2.]

@@gendronhvac-r1269 Yes, Thanks.

[@hg2.]

@@gendronhvac-r1269 kzbin.info/www/bejne/faXco4ynq9t-eNU Yes, this answered my question about the Hot Gas Bypass Valve. (Been struggling with that one for a couple weeks, but yes, there it is, literally in the last minute.) Thanks. [This goes a long way to adding knowledge of pressure and direction in these systems (!). The experienced guys already know this, but newbies don't - they get lost in the rack room when pipes get pointed to and we literally don't know which end is "up". This goes a long way to clearing it all up. (I should play this one every session the way musicians play the scales.)]

[@UwoSwansd61]

29 inches of vacuum is 736000 Microns

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

I get this comment a lot. So typically what I target is 29.9 Which is below Five hundred micros. In this case my gauges were 30 Inches of vacuum. This is considered a perfect vacuum. I know that it is impossible to have A perfect vacuum. But as far as my gauges were concerned I think I satisfied 500 micron requirements.

[@tonetone1637]

If I have a compressor hogging all the oil I can hook up to the oil pump and sent it right back into the suction to oil receiver?

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

Yes, You simply isolate the compressor from oil. Hook a line from the oil pump to another part of The suction header. Over another compressor so when that compressor stages on it can return the oil back to the oil separator. You then manually stage the compressor on until oil is removed out of it. I hope that helps

[@tonetone1637]

@@gendronhvac-r1269 yes that did help so close don’t the oil control feeding line to that compressor stage on compressor. Thank you sure would help I see some compressors with a lot of oil in sight glass.

[@damiangul9384]

Great video

[@chaseherigstad8576]

Hell ya, nice

[@garypoplin4599]

15:49 - Do you mean ‘straighter’ as opposed to ‘crookeder’?

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

🤣schrader I am probably not saying it right.

[@erikjohnson2353]

Wait you left the rack running with the oil filter valves off on both sides?? I thought that would prevent the flow of oil to your comps so you’d have to shut the rack down ?

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

No they will run just fine with the oil they have inside the compressors. Eventually they will all lock out on oil failure and you just have to open everything up and reset them it's not a big deal. But if you wanted to shut down the rack that's fine also. Hope that helps :)

[@erikjohnson2353]

@@gendronhvac-r1269 yes sir thank you for that piece of info!! You’ve helped me tremendously in this trade 👍

[@CouchDad09]

Awesome video great tips to remember. How do you check your superheat at the rack for a case? I been using the testo app when I can get a suction scrader at the evaporator coil but I struggle with the hot gas evaporators with no scrader port

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

When you check your superheat at the rack you're checking for the compressors not the case. In theory if you're super heat is in range at the case you shouldn't have a problem at the rack. But the reason why you check superheat at the rack is so compressors will not drink liquid refrigerant it has to heat up to a certain point before it hits your compressors. I have a video on D superheaters and I go into like the temperature range that compressors can deal with if you're interested. Hope that helps

[@CouchDad09]

Thanks I’ve never really gotten into compressor superheat yet as you said I usually start working on the txv air flow epr valve for flood back I will check out the video as well But when you don’t have access at the evaporator suction to check superheat How do you proceed

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

@@CouchDad09 Well its a little bit of guessing to be honest but this is what I would do. 1) manul on Refrigeration 2) manul on compressors - you turn on the compressors manually because you need to drive down the pressure below what the epr is sent to in order to see what the epr is set too. 3) you hook up your gauges on the case side of the EPR. 4) this will give you your pressure. Which will correspond to the starting temperature of your coil. ( well theoretical starting temperature) 5) leaving all the manual overrides in you go down to the case and take your temperature on the outlet of evap coil. The difference between your outlet temperature and your theoretical pressure temperature is your super heat. 6) I would also check with a AR gun and make sure that your coil is getting to your theoretical temperature. 7) I would go back to the rack make sure there is no flood back on that circuit. 8) takeout overrides I hope that helps

[@CouchDad09]

yes it does thanks. when I Replace a txv without a service port at the evaporator I install one . that's what I have been doing . also have set the txv to a factory setting and checking for flood back but I like your method .

[@stephennichols4815]

You don't have a negative superheated you can only go t9 zero degree superheated beca😢 superheated is the amount of heat gained in the refrigerant if the suction pressure is say 68 an5 the eva0orating temperature is 40 you can never get c9lder than 5he s u action pressure evaporating temperature

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

When you have a blended refrigerant. You can actually get a negative super heat reading. You cannot actually do this.It does not actually exist because you cannot Lose heat in a warmer environment. But because of the blend of refrigerant is an average across the blend if you have extreme floodback. It will give you a negative super heat reading. I have a video on it if you're interested :) Because with four forty eight a most of the blend is actually well below negative twenty for that saturated section temperature. Hope this helps god bless

[@jonnymac31]

Hell yeah man.

[@hg2.]

(3 viewings; first 'call out') Min 25:00 Why does overfeeding ( broken TXV) cause a low-oil-issue on the compressor?

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

The liquid refrigerant carries away the oil out of the compressor while it's running. Hope that makes sense

[@hg2.]

@@gendronhvac-r1269 Ok, so, - an overfeeding TXV sends liquid Back to the compressor (slugging?) - and then that liquid picks up compressor oil and sends it out to the condenser? (I don't think I've got this right, but it's a start.)

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

@@hg2. Yes but more than likely it will never make it out to the condenser because the rack systems have a oil separator. So the oil will go out the discharged and more than likely to be fed back to the oil Reservoir. But because it will sense there's no oil in the compressor it will just shut the compressor off. The oil cannot feed to the compressor fast enough to compensate for how much oil it's losing because of the slugging

[@hg2.]

@@gendronhvac-r1269 Phew... "slugging as part of the diagnosis". Ok. Thanks. On to the next one....

[@douro20]

How old is that rack?

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

I don't know, But most of the ones i work on are close to 20 years old.

[@hg2.]

Min 6:00 I know it's a different issue from oil problems, but "low on refrigerant" requires know "how low", i.e., "how much refrigerant do I have to add? " Can you give a few sentences on how you determined how much refrigerant to add?

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/oXXWe4yrl9KYnbc This video I made explains it OK.

[@derekmerrell3658]

where is part 2?

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

Sadly they told me to close out the job that I did enough and that we had more important fish to fry so they never allowed me to get back

[@Al-gr2pg]

29 is 1000 microns Where’s your micron gauge Simple thing to do, no?

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

Yeah I might have been better off using A micron Gauge. My gauges have a micron function So i've been putting off buying a new gauge. Because i've been trying to figure out how to convert my gauges over to microns. I might have to just bite the bullet and buy two sets of gauges. But a 29.9 Inch vacuum is five hundred microns. I pulled a thirty inch vacuum. This is a deeper vacuum Then required. Anyway I hope learn something from the video :)

[@hg2.]

Min 21:30 I know it's a video nit, but when you're adjusting valves (differentials, TXVs, service valves) with a rachet wrench, it's hard to tell if you're going clockwise or counterclockwise. Any chance you could use an adjustable crescent wrench on these instead?

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

No because if you use a crescent wrench it is very likely you will round off the service valve. I can try to be directions to specific in videos. But I adjust the valve in this video to the left to open to allow higher pressure

[@hg2.]

How are we supposed to count the rotations if we can't tell what direction he's turning in the first place? You speak from experience -- good for you. But Mr. Gendron makes videos to teach. And if you're trying to learn, "little" details like 'what direction?' are important.

[@barrymufarry1866]

If you’re watching videos to figure out why a pump has cut on oil failure you should be looking for a new line of work

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

I mean we're all in different places man. I wouldn't be so harsh on people just starting out. I mean maybe on day one you knew all this stuff. But most of the tecs I used to train had no idea about this stuff. Every master was once in an Apprentice.

[@stephennichols4815]

Sounds like you don't know what to do I f you are that low on refrigerant you would have temperature problems with the case's in the store t by its right you don't know what y T is the oil pressure on the compressor and is t he compressor causing the system to lose oil or acid circuit washing the oil out when it comes out of defrost is your c contactor good you missing so Many things and a lot more

[@Novar22]

I always thought I had to shut every compressor down and isolate the oil filter to change it. Correct me if I’m wrong I’m still pretty new

[@gendronhvac-r1269]

You can do that if you want to. But the way that this system is set up it will just trip on oil failure so I'm not worried about it. I hope that helps