Sword vs Feder - The HEMA myth

[@swiyth]

Well said. I think the key is "if you know what you're doing". Feders are useful tools, and good for keeping your partner safe; which is why I think Sigis are the best beginner weapons, and even tournament weapons. But if you're interested in the H of HEMA, you need to know what a real sword feels like, because the way they handle is very different; some principles only make sense when the weapon is close to the weight and balance of a historical sword.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Correct. But also, Feders may be closer to real swords than replicas in terms of specs. Our way of pointing at Feders and Swords is based on partial assumptions generally. Many of my Feders handle as sharps, and many of my replicas feel like bricks. It’s all about specifics in the end.

[@swiyth]

@@FedericoMalagutti Agreed! In my opinion, it's useful to have a range of historically balanced swords to get a feel for what would be considered reasonable for swords of a particular period and style. This is especially true for those interested in the historical aspect. Some places have that benefit; others not so much. But when you know what it feels like, you can at least make an informed decision.

[@ukaszgrzesik7231]

I went with Black Fancer steel standard longsword for my training sword and I am very happy with it. In fact it is so far the only piece of equipment so far that I am fully satisfied with. It does have quite a bit of flex to it and thick flat (not rolled) tip while retaining overall longsword look. Used also for sparing, no problems so far, no ratling or major damage but I did manage to very slightly bend one of guards. I am by no means expert so cannot really give usefull opinion on matters of functionality and realizm in handling. Hovewer I would not dismiss aesthetics, especially for beginners. It is "the cool factor" that brings people in at the start, dedication and mastery comes later.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Black Fencer swords trainers would be far better with a wider spatulated tip. One time, a couple of years ago, the rubber tip slipped away from one of them which one of my students owns, and it pierced the hand of one of my students some exchanges later. It was a mixture of unlucky events but with a larget tip it would have been definitely harder. In terms of durability they are ok, the cross starts to rattle after some time but that's common to many swords.

[@Hadras7094]

I also own that one, and so far it has behaved very well

[@thescholar-general5975]

Yeah I think that people really need to differentiate between something that looks like a sword and something that has similar dynamic properties of a sword. I do still think that many feders tend to balance too close to the guard and tend to be on the long side when compared to original swords, but overall much better than training with something like shinai back in the good old days. Too bad that the feder which best matches a real sword doesn’t have more flex to it.

[@ColdNapalm42]

Yeah, the length is the main reason I dislike most feders. I like shorter longswords...36 inch blade max. Also like wheel pommel which was the most popular historical pommel and it is the rarest type we find now. These things really do change how swords feel and work in a fight.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Yes, I agree

[@Davlavi]

Thanks for weighing in on this issue.

[@bensteinhauser784]

Great video! As someone who's mainly interested in the tournament aspect of HEMA, I've never understood the obsession with gear's apperance. I just want something that is safe (for myself and my opponent) and handles well. Also, if I really wanted a sharp that handles like my feder, it wouldn't be impossible to find/comission.

[@jasonjames9836]

Great video! I have to agree that the aesthetics (though important) don't mean a thing compared to handling. Some people want optimization for the current tournament "game." While others want something that approximates the handling and feel of an historical, sharp sword. I think your advice for beginners operating in a vacuum to start with a federschwert is good. My first longsword simulator is a Arms & Armor fechterspiel and I love it. It is based on 16th century training "feder" and gives me one window into swordsmanship of a time and place. I have a second longsword simulator that is custom built by Krieger Armory in the USA that is very similar to the Fiore Sentinel that they sell (my custom was before that existed). It has very similar characteristics to some of the earlier 15th century longswords and part of my choice for this simulator was aesthetics (sorry, I wanted pretty). But this second longsword simulator gives insight into a different aspect and time of longsword fencing. I'm pretty sure I'll end up with at least a few more longsword simulators to explore other aspects of longsword fencing. And if I really get into the "game" of tournaments, I will likely get a feder that is more optimized for that type of play.

[@Stampianirrationalism]

Never understood feder vs sword shape debate. Use what’s safe and try different tools to learn how they handle. Use sharps for cutting practice, feders for sparring and faster technique. Try some stiffer blades for technique practice or solo training and so on. Mix it up just use each one with respect and observe the corresponding safety practices. But variety may help improve understanding and is in my opinion part of the fun 😁. Nice video 👍

[@FedericoMalagutti]

That’s definitely the correct approach.

[@themightypaw3318]

Its hard to delineate differences when 99%of the core concepts are interchangeable in practice and sparring. The only thing i can pin point is the difference of angle for blade taper and the "schilt". All the parts are still there, pommel, grip, crossguard, blade - and in similar weights and length.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Agreed!

[@johnmrke2786]

I am still learning about HEMA and this is my first time encountering a federschwert, so I am going to "like" the video and subscribe just because I learned something new.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Thanks ;-)

[@ianalexander7082]

I would agree with all that you've said here; if you're using the shape of schilt that you are. A lot of feders have the schilt which flares out as a blade catcher and i think, if you're using one of those, you're missing a fundemental part of training as you won't learn to keep you're hands safe.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

It’s admittedly a minor, minor thing. Most of the times it’s extremely easy to hit the hands anyway. I barely feel the difference between schilts, especially while wearing gloves. Side rings, which some people go for, give far more advantage in this sense.

[@ianalexander7082]

@@FedericoMalagutti perhaps in sparring. I usually find with beginners who don't use that kind of schilt they often get 'cut fingers' when winding into Ochs (or not doing it properly). It helps them to know the best angle to wind and to hold their sword a little back from the hilt. With a flared schilt, they tend to take longer to learn this.

[@ryankosiek5099]

Very helpful information, thank you

[@jasonbaldwin273]

I would not recommend a Sigi King for new people. They are relatively tip heavy and hard hitting compared to feders.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

That’s exactly what I said. Buy a Feder first.

[@frankheninja1]

The man spits nothing but facts

[@FedericoMalagutti]

lol ;-)

[@jaredbaker7230]

That's the Ensifer Kron, yes? Would you recommend it for a newbie? I very much want to learn to handle a real sword.

[@BenHosac]

Great advice! Some folks at my club have brought up a kind of graduation from feder and specifically Sigi Feders as they continue to train and enter more tourneys. If you have any opinions on safe thrusting in a tourney setting I'd love to hear it. If one is moving away from a lighter Sigi Lichty for instance due to weaknesses vs heavier blades, what is the ultimate compromise and direction to go in without compromising safety. It's a conundrum; we don't want to injure our fencing friends.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Probably the Maestro in terms of SIGI is the best.

[@Ombradivolpe]

This video is beautiful.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Thanks

[@wardmatthew42]

If you are in the US, the feder I recommend is Regenyei standard feder. It's not the best, it's not the cheapest but it's the best for the price and is sold in by most US Distributors. I would stay away from the Purple Heart brand, they are overly heavy and the center of balance feels very high. Chlebowski are great but they are more expensive than the Regenyei and the differences are less than the PH Brand. Beyond that try to find a friends feder you like and buy that.

[@praxus6902]

Does the Regenyei Standard Feder have enough flex to thrust safely while sparring?

[@wardmatthew42]

@@praxus6902 For sure. It's less stiff than some others common in the US market. It's not the best sword overall, fit and finish, but the blade has been riding that line of being stiff enough it doesn't feel floppy in the swing but not too stiff for thrusting.

[@chengkay1894]

I recall Todesca from Malleus Martialis have show in your past video, what if compare to Corona. Which is more sword alike?

[@SixDeadZeroHEMA]

Whilst I obviously believe that "real" swords look much cooler and I love them very much, people seem to get really hung up on disliking federschwert as they're not "accurate". For /training/ HEMA, federschwert are arguably more historically accurate - they are a historical training tool. They're not a modern invention. They're designed by contemporary fencers to be as similar as possible to the "real" swords of the period. For actually fighting with a sword, of course a "real" sword is better... but you're gonna run out of training partners pretty fast.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Well said!

[@SixDeadZeroHEMA]

@@FedericoMalagutti you too, great video :)

[@JohnMcKLV]

I've had a Regenyei standard for a while and am looking to upgrade. I don't *need* to at all, as it works fine and allows me to train and spar. But anyway, I'm torn in a few directions when looking for my next. My group is a Meyer group, and the instructor dislikes shorties. At the same time, my own historical interest is more 15th century, with shorter weapons. So I am trying to decide between a King shorty (Much better model of 15th century swords for length and balance) and a Concept or Gothic standard (for length and faster handling, and softer cuts competitively). Maybe I should just get both ;)

[@FedericoMalagutti]

@@JohnMcKLV both, both is good. 😝

[@Ian-ib4uf]

Since the Corona is discontinued, did you get a chance to try out the model that replaces it, the FREIFECHTER? It doesn't feel like a replacement because the stats seem very different. The FREIFECHTER seems a bit tip-heavy compared to the Corona. The POB is 2cm more forward, and the pivot point is 10cm closer to the hilt. What are your thoughts on this model? Interestingly enough, there is absolutely no review on the internet.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Not by now, I wasn’t able to try it out!

[@wadlet3380]

I have been wanting to buy my own steel sword after using the rickety feders and plastic swords at my club for a while. I was thinking of getting the Sigi King after trying it from a friend, but I think you've convinced me to stick to feders haha. I like the build and look of Sigi swords, would their feder be a good first sword?

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Their Feder is very good

[@izzygarcialionibabaloipici6293]

if i just wanted to drill by myself would buying a feder even be worth it without sparring? I just want to "shadow fence" and cut bottles, would i be wasting my money? Is training with a sharp sword bad practice?

[@FedericoMalagutti]

If you don’t want to spar, any sword is good for you. Pay attention when you solo drill with your sharp though, if you are at the beginning.

[@izzygarcialionibabaloipici6293]

@@FedericoMalagutti awesome thank you very much

[@tobytoxd]

Superb video! Thank you, i learned a lot today, very helpful and well presented insights! And what i specifically learned as a maybe HEMA starter: Buy a SIGI King, because it's nearly as safe as a Feder, BUT IT LOOKS COOL! 😅

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Ahahahahahah!!! You are welcome ;-)

[@HarvesterOfSouls1]

Any thughts on Longsword - Steel Generation by Black Fencer? I don't know if I made a mistake buying it as my first and after this video I have serious doubts... Please be honest

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Blackfencer are a good, relatively cheap trainer which many people who desire a sword-shaped trainer go for. Their quality in my opinion is above “ok”. They are durable enough and with an good aesthetic for the price spent. The flexibility is just among the swords I consider safe enough, but They require a sturdy, properly fixed tip, because the tip is still tiny enough to create damage to certain gloves (e.g. sparring gloves) at higher speed levels. One of my students has it, after five to six years it’s time to change it because the blade took some beatings by striking against Feders/swords with a thicker or sturdier edge. But it’s a good life for a trainer anyway.

[@HarvesterOfSouls1]

@@FedericoMalagutti Thank you very very much. I trust your opinion 100%. A big fan here btw. I look forward to seeing you in Madrid one day. We have a great school here. Wold be a great honor to have you for a couple of days. Cheers.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

@@HarvesterOfSouls1 thank you! I teach seminars abroad regularly, maybe your club or another close to you will invite me to teach, it would be cool. I already taught in Granada in 2023, but I would love to see and teach in Madrid! Well, fingers crossed ;-)

[@Zodd83]

Full agree. A sword is a sword. And is a mean to an end.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Truth!

[@liquidyschitz4908]

Definitely love the traditional sword style over a feder

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Of course, it’s a cooler aesthetic, but it always come with some practical trade-off

[@ColdNapalm42]

I have a custom Castille Armoury training sword that has the weight, balance with flex that it is aafe for SCA fencing and looks of an Albion Crecy. It costs more than an Albion Crecy...but you can have it all in your trainer if you are willing to pay.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Well absolutely, if you throw enough money at the maker you’ll have something very good!

[@tommeakin1732]

My thoughts are just that, in HEMA, the sport aspect should never dwarf the historical. The weapon standard should always be centred on what is historical - so if a sword is lighter, longer, with a centre of mass closer to the hand than most, or all historical swords of that type - it shouldn't be allowed. So then the question is, how can you take something with the same core characteristics as "a historical sword", and make it as safe as you can? As long as the core characteristics are "historical", I don't care what it looks like. While I do like the idea of everyone using "authentic, dulled swords"; I admit that feder do have qualities that allows them to just be safer. But I will compensate by saying that there does seem to be a camp of folk who are happy for HEMA to suffer olympic fencingism, where swords become optimised for sport conditions, not historical conditions. I.e. getting lighter, nimbler and longer; taking them out of the "realistic sword characteristics" bracket. I think that should be fought against, at least to the point where it breaks off into it's own sport.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Agreed, but believe me, I would pay everything to make my 135 Sigi concept as nimble as my sharp XD

[@tommeakin1732]

@@FedericoMalagutti If there's going to be a pay off for safety, I'd rather it make the tool less effective than more effective than a "real" blade (assuming historical qualities of the latter)!

[@fencingleprechaun]

I ignore the shape of the weapon when I inspect, I look at the tip, the flex and the edge thickness and obvious damage. I don't care if it has a shilt or not. Some people wanna scream when they see my Castille sword but the edge tip and flex are all similar to most feders out there. Argue less fence more

[@417hemaspringfieldmo]

Full blade steel trainer, Federschwert blade steel trainers

[@corrugatedcavalier5266]

Pretty much agree. I do still have a gripe with the typical feder length being much too long if you're training Fiore or the early Lichtenauer tradition. Flexibility and schilts don't bother me.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Yeah, average length is a bit too much.

[@jonathanyaeger2289]

I fence broadsword, rapier, and others. None of those swords have feder like blade designs, and none of them have issues with being too inflexible. Is the average maker of longsword trainers just worse at their craft?

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Broadswords tend to have blades large and flat, rapiers long and thin, many sword shapes can be made flexible without changing the shape of the sword. If instead you try to make a diamond-sectioned blade meant to be stiff as F to pass through chain mail and kill people, changing form may be a good idea. That’s why sword-shaped trainers are, most of the times, flat and thin. Quite far away from what swords were. By the way, it’s rare to find makers who make only Longsword, most of the times they make all trainers. The answer is what the originals look like and were meant for.

[@jonathanyaeger2289]

If the Sigi king shows that blade shape can be made safe, why isn’t it done more often?, and is the blade shape a genuine barrier if it can be done? To me, to be a feder, it needs to have a schilt. Is a flat profile blade without a schilt still a feder? Is a flat profile blade that tapers not a feder? One of my rapier has a flat blade. The other two have a diamond blade with a fuller. I refer to all of of them as “training rapier”. There may be a benefit in focusing less on the term ‘feder’, which references a training tool from a specific time and place removed from modern context,, and Instead communicating specific design elements that made a trainer safe. feder or no, It either is or is not safe. It’s a longsword specific terminology issue that might disrupt understanding.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

@@jonathanyaeger2289 the SIGI king has a blade even more flat than a Feder. The King uses a number of swords design tools mutuate from many different weapons to look like a sword. But it doesn’t really represent any type of sword commonly used in the XIVth to XVIth century. Yeah on rapiers it’s easy to do many, many things, while keeping it safe. Otherwise if you look at the average rapier stored in, e.g. museo stibbert in Florence, they tend to be more fat than the average rapier on a good part of their length, to maintain stiffness. I’m not particularly in love with the term Feder, is just how we today call that weapon.