SYLVANETH: Faction Focus AOS4

Welcome to another Faction Focus. Ryan and Jonas walk the hidden paths to uncover what's been happening in the Awakened Wyldswoods! It's the Sylvaneth faction focus review, of course!
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[@RoomSevenFifteen]

Just a clarification. All Alarielle resurrections are replacements units including her own set up. Don't believe you can replace a replacement unit. So while you get multiple tries to bring her back if you fail the 4+, she's not self-res-ing more than once in a game. Furthermore Spiteswarm was +3". Battlemage was +2" so there was a time to get 4" charge after walking the spirit paths if everything went perfectly.

[@ryanburruss]

Good catch on Spiteswarm!

[@jamesalexander222]

>3” even, cos could res a bug at the end of the movement phase..

[@strategoi]

Daaaaaamn. That makes much more sense, but is also a major disappointment haha.

[@timbarker4744]

I've been trying to find this rule, where does it say that replacements can't be replaced? I'm fairly new and this would be a pretty big limitation to get ability.

[@strategoi]

@@timbarker4744 Tzeentch faction focus

[@MrElliotholman]

Gotta say, I admire you’re commitment to being quick off the mark with these, definitely made me tune in, good job guys

[@strategoi]

Thanks, Elliott! Ryan had to shift things around quite a bit for it to work, but he knew this video would be one you guys rather wanted to get sooner than later.

[@Andaah]

You beat Rob! Good job.

[@starslayer2438]

I love Alarielle and Durthu and I like the Lancers and the Hunters. Only warscroll that is a big meh are the Revenants. I also like the general gist of the battle traits, but I feel like there really, really needed to be one of the following modifications: Either a new version of overgrown terrain to make generic terrain work like wyldwoods. Or 9" or even 12" range on all those wyldwood related abilities. However, one thing that always irked me with this army was how expensive most things were. And subsequently how small the armies were. My hope is that with reduced armor saves on the Hunters and the big nerf to the teleports, most Sylvaneth units will become noticeably cheaper so that I can run more and be less worried about every single loss. Note that Walk the Hidden Paths having the CORE keyword means the unit can't use the Normal Move, Run or Retreat abilities with it, due to the Rule of One: "A unit cannot use more than 1 CORE ability per phase." (As seen in one of the preview battle reports on Warhammer+.)

[@strategoi]

That was it! I knew there was something about CORE but couldn't remember it for the life of me. Thanks! Defo agree about their point costs. My army was always ridiculously small. I'm with you on the hopium that we get cheaper as a trade off.

[@ce4879]

The Spearhead greatbows will likely be 24” for main AoS like the other 30” snipers got shrunk to. It’s just 18” because that a Warcry skirmish battlefield.

[@strategoi]

I'm expecting that too

[@probyn92]

Well done gents, very much agree that is a difficult army to review with all the small parts! This has been my main army since they released and sometimes I still have a oh wow moment 😅 Regarding the talons for treeelords, in their first book the talons had an auto slay ability if damage was applied. Spite revs may be useful if you can place them behind a unit like dryards who hopefully will still have debuffs. get have them in combat if enemy charges front unit so have a chance to stop command points.

[@strategoi]

Thanks for the comment! That auto slay thing might have been it, but I seem to remember it dealt 6 wounds when it rolled a 6 or whatever 🤔 Anywaaay, really curious to see the value of spite revs. For my collection it'd be okay if they remained meh but for the army I just wish everything was playable

[@BreakingTad]

Quick with it ! 👏🏼

[@strategoi]

Being early is not always a perk, but this time around we wanted to be 😉😁

[@gammafighter]

I was baffled by the battle trait changes, but it's clear now that they are totally changing the direction of the army. Sylvaneth can't play the same unless there are massive unrevealed rules that totally change things. With these rules, they've completely changed how Sylvaneth will play, we have to think differently about how that could be effective. Teleporting and S&F used to be powerful abilities that you could use right away and your opponent had to play around in deployment and movement. In this version, they are slow, limited in range, and very clearly projected. Maybe rather than thinking of S&F as a "get out of jail free" card for a hammer unit, we have to think of it as another positioning tool- essentially a second, more limited version of walk the hidden paths. We can push out dryads and Tree Lords as tarpits and anvils, then choose where to deploy and redeploy our hammer units quickly using those teleports. The obvious problem is that most of our units are slow, so this style of play won't really be effective until turn 3 or so. Shooting will continue to be really useful, so hopefully Drycha still has good shooting. Kurnoth hunters with Great Bows look pretty underwhelming. Unless they're much cheaper, you're paying a lot for their defenses, which they shouldn't need to use as ranged attackers. Spells will also be really important in this playstyle. Hopefully we get at least one good MW spell and one good rallying spell in the Lore of the Deepwood. Kurnoth Hunters going to 4+ saves is tragic. In this less-lethal version of the game with a 3+, they might have actually been effective as brawlers that can absorb damage as well as they can take it and heal back up. On a 4+, they're gonna be that much more fragile. Here's hopium that the melee Kurnoths are 3+. Alarielle looks really powerful, fun, and thematic. It's a shame because I was hoping I wouldn't have to buy and paint her, lol. In 3.0, the Spiteriders' Fight First ability is huge, but they still don't do enough damage to be effective. In 4.0 with the Fight First going to a 3+ and their damage going down, it looks like they still won't be too effective. With the caveat that in this less-lethal version, they might be able to survive, heal up, and grind the enemy down. Copium. Durthu losing his warscroll teleport and Fight Last stomp is a huge change. He still has damage, which is solid, but it was the damage combined with the utility that made him so great for me. Being anti-monster focused is pretty bad since there are probably going to be a lot of armies that don't run monsters. This might be the biggest copium, but Spite Revenants might actually work if they stay super cheap. For basic chaff-level troops, they have good damage. Most chaff has 2 attacks, but they have 3. Most chaff doesn't have Crit Mortals as well. If they can get +1 to attacks characteristic with a leader unit that you want to run anyway (like Drycha or Arch Revenant), they could be a mini-hammer that you don't mind losing because they're so cheap.

[@Very_Unwise]

How is their dmg down? I agree fights first is strictly worse, but on the charge my math is telling me the new profile is on average better, especially against targets with mediocre armor saves or other cavalry.

[@gammafighter]

@@Very_Unwise I must have misspoke. I was thinking of the general overall drop in power. But the 2 damage on the charge for the mount and the rider are good.

[@strategoi]

I'm still not convinced by the bug riders either... We'll have to wait and see. I hoped they'd be more impressive with our teleporting being toned down.

[@jeremiahj1108]

I enjoy your honest takes on the armies. Listening to Honest Wargamer talk about how powerful everything is when it's obviously weaker then what it was can be annoying

[@strategoi]

Thanks Jeremiah! Rob does a fantastic quick review and I enjoy the optimism he displays. We try to offer a more in-depth approach so eventually we end up with criticism as well. Glad you enjoy that approach because we do too. ❤️

[@strategoi]

Correction time! - The range boost for Spiteswarm Hive is +3", not 2" (thanks to @RoomSevenFifteen for the heads up). Been awhile since either of us had played with it! - Replacement units can only be replaced once, so no continuous resurrection for Alarielle 😢 We'll add more things here as we spot them.

[@Andaah]

Honestly the more I think about it the more shocked I am at how extensively our teleports have been nuked: 6" range Max 3 trees Trees have to be summoned (so you have to have wizards to use your battle traits - and if you have one tree all it can do is heal) Trees can be destroyed Redeploy always happens Teleport back end of turn Can't teleport out of combat with Paths Need to be in combat to s&f so if you kill your enemy you're stuck If you've spent all the brain power to be in a fight with someone withing 6" they can simply destroy the tree so you can't fade away Alarielle cannot use our battle traits unless she can stand on the "roots" of the Wildwood Are there any of these spotlights that have the entire battle traits rely one something that has to be summoned/can be dispelled/needs multiple to be summoned to function/needs wizards to be created?

[@ageofsigmar89]

Your right. Im shocked too. Sylvaneth ist IMO dead right now. Everthing ist nerfed. Idk If the other Warscrolls will Help to fix this. If kurnorth really get a 4+ save everything i liked is fk useless

[@stevecatpatrick8056]

​@@ageofsigmar89yeah the only thing that's good is the healing. Are we supposed to place a tree somewhere where we can stand on an objective and just face tank it with trees or something? Is that the army now?

[@strategoi]

We can't say for sure unless we see the warscroll for the woods. Maybe they're super hard to destroy... I would have loved one free tree (not a whole wood) per round though, just like the skaven get with their gnawholes.

[@benwood1977]

The turning everything to overgrown was a great ability. An opponent would shut off everything in their turn but you could just then turn everything to OG and still get into them. Or towards the end to secure battle tactics / win the game. With the Soulblight/FEC recurring through any terrain, I could see them saying all terrain outside the enemy territory could be considered OGT. Who knows until we see the whole index! 🤷‍♂️

[@strategoi]

There won't be any new battle traits so it seems unlikely, but there might be a badass heroic trait or they might actually give us something like seasons. I could see that sneakily happen 🤷‍♂️😁

[@Pedrocas84]

Spite revs are great! Reinforced unit for 160p, you get 20 wounds and 31 attacks with mortals on 6s.

[@strategoi]

If they're that cheap, then they'll be stellar 😁

[@Pedrocas84]

​@@strategoiThey were already really good at the end of 3rd when they got the 2" range. In 4th they all fight inside 3". Even for 80 points thats really good for 4th standards. If they drop 10 points, they will be 5 star.

[@Vortid]

Can't quite wrap my head around how the army is supposed to work now...I like the focus on healing, that feels fitting. Regrowth. But woods on a spell only? And you can just chop them down if they annoy you? We'll see but this to me looks likely to be an army that is going to be dormant waiting for it's new 4th editiom book...

[@strategoi]

I really hope that's not the case! Woods might be difficult to destroy, who knows. But yeah, I am living in fear as well 😂

[@eugeniopasqualone7258]

Could it be that with all these nerfs to the range of the Wyldwoods maybe they changed the way in which we set them up ?? Maybe now the 3 pieces doesn't need to touch point to point but they can be (let's assume) 1" or 2" away ?? That could give some room to balance out the nerfs ?? Just random toughts

[@strategoi]

That'd change things for sure and it would make it much easier to maneuver around them. I don't think it's likely though, even though I love that suggestion. I do also think there's something we're not seeing. There's gonna be something impactful in the index to make summoning easier. Or more reliable at least.

[@Childhood.87]

Everyone who is not getting that thus is by far the biggest nerf... I dont know what to say. There is nothing to stay positive about ...

[@Andaah]

This. If they wanted to remove s&f remove it properly. Don't make it useless and deprive us of a battle traits!

[@ghostwaterminiatures302]

I could not agree more. It’s awful. Hopefully our units are great ?

[@strategoi]

Gotta wait until we see the woods warscroll. It's surprising they didn't show it - it could make (or further break) the army.

[@theTemplar08]

Including units out of stock there are only 18 models listed for sale on the Game workshop store for this army. They have to be up this army, preferably with some elves.

[@strategoi]

Give us Kurnothiiii 🙏

[@massimorolli4414]

Companion attack profile cannot be modified by abilities od friendly units. Enemy units abilities work.

[@strategoi]

Thanks for clearing that up. I remembered all out attack applied to it as well though, right?

[@massimorolli4414]

@@strategoi Yes. It is specified in the AOA description.

[@ageofsigmar89]

There is such a critical error in rules with alarielle and the teleport. Everything i liked is nuked. Status right now: Sylvaneth is a dead army.

[@strategoi]

We gotta remain optimistic until we see everything. I can see them changing the 6'' to 9'' with a heroic trait or artefact. Or they might still give us Seasons in the index. Who knows.

[@afairy]

I think the s&f nerf is fine for them having to still be in combat, but wholly within 6" is awful. As pointed out, the Everqueen cant even fit in the area unkess shes overlapping the actual terrain itself

[@strategoi]

Yep. Definitely weirdly designed. I don't think they thought that through.

[@christianjohansson7185]

I like the charge to strike and fade. Every person I played, unfamiliar with sylvaneth would look at me in disbelief and demand to see the book when I explained the units got to leave before retaliation. Against new players I would sometimes just not do it at all to keep things fun for both of us. Definitely a nerf I'll need to learn to play around, but better for the game I think.

[@stevecatpatrick8056]

I really disagree. Not about it needing a change I guess but this is not better this is worse in every way. Now you taken an NPE from your opponent and given it to yourself. I'm fine with them being able to hit you back if you could still do it in a nice big radius, and that You didn't need to be in combat at the end still so if you killed your enemy you could still do it, and if we had a way for our other teleport to allow us to get close enough to an enemy that redeploy doesn't completely shut down a charge. This is just janky and crap.

[@christianjohansson7185]

@stevecatpatrick8056 you make a good point. A bit more radius would make it easier to pull off compared to this. I wonder if they perhaps wanted to reign it in from many different angles, but ended up cutting too much power over all. I think I will still like not having to excuse the no-fun factor of the old rule, but reaching the same level of utility and power will be a challenge for sure.

[@strategoi]

Agreed about fading before getting hit back. That sucked for new players especially and I felt guilty about it quite often. I wonder whether the woods might give us a ward or something while we're within 6''. It really feels like we got hit way too hard for not getting much back. I could understand that if sylvaneth were topping the charts everywhere but they've been a lower tier army for a really long time.

[@christianjohansson7185]

@strategoi It is really like you said in the video; the wyldwood warscroll will decide a lot about how to make the army work. I will enjoy experimenting with the new edition either way. Worst case scenario, playing an underdog (undergrowth?) army is a good way to make acquaintances.

[@ghostwaterminiatures302]

It’s feels like anything that involves our battle tactics is awful. We got the big nerf.

[@strategoi]

Yeah it's rough. I've been thinking about it the whole day and I keep ending up with the idea that things are gonna be even more unforgiving. Will have to wait and see. I could see heroic traits and artefacts making a substantial difference still.

[@rotm4447]

Feels like they just became super annoying to play to the point where trees are mostly why even bother. Losing the very popular overgrown is inexplicable. Again it feels like hard to play factions that relied on rules outside of raw warscrolls got hit the hardest. Wholly within 6" gtfo with that nonsense, if you're going to triple nerf fade just remove it and do something else.

[@strategoi]

Wholeheartedly agree

[@voice9893]

I really dont see sylvaneth beeing good with those rules revealed. First faction after slaanesh were i look at it and say they arent probably that good. Alarielle having no run and charge. Treelords dont have the independant teleport anymore. Loosing the strike last abilty while guys lile belakhor get strike first for himself and 2 other units within 3 inches. While sylvaneth players have to be wholly within 6 inches. I printed some footprints for my wyldwood because its just a mess. Setting them up outside of 3 of terrain endless spells and units was allways a hazzle choosing if the smaller tree could fit or the bigger one. Having to mesure from every root. Sylvaneth was my main army in aos3 and i feel like they butchered them so hard. Trees hopefully give +1 armor for everybody in range when kurnoths only remain with 4 armor beeing infantry. If belthanos looses run and charge bubble this faction is dead

[@strategoi]

It'd be a bummer if we needed belthanos to carry the faction though 🥲

[@voice9893]

@@strategoi has been Like this in AoS 3.0 after His Release or gotrek🤣

[@strategoi]

@@voice9893 Yeah, that's why I think it'd be a bummer to keep it that way! xD