Symphony of the Night’s odd leveling system

[@robertmcginty4146]

I used to level up my familiars by going to the room with the fishmen, standing on the little ledge out of their reach, and then summoning whichever familiar I wanted to level up. Then I'd turn the TV off and go to bed. In the morning it would be level 99. Except for the sword, it would take 2 nights, bc when it hit 50 it would desummon to go into your inventory and youd have to manually summon it again.

[@heyfrankevans]

yeah, the familiars are much easier to level up than Alucard. I usually grind them up by soul stealing ruler swords, it's super quick but does need you to actually be there while you grind

[@gagejoseph91]

​@@heyfrankevans For active grinding, I use the Dark Octopi room in the inverse castle. Duplicator, Power of Sire, there's two little ledges at the top of the room at the entrance, short jump to leave and re-enter room, pop Power (And a Bat Pentagram if you want even more speed), everything dies in a second, jump to reload room. Something like 15 kills per 2 seconds.

[@heyfrankevans]

@@gagejoseph91 Huh, that's probably the quickest way of doing it. 54000 exp per minute, not much that'll beat that lol

[@gagejoseph91]

@heyfrankevans Yup. In all my years of consuming SotN content, I have not once ever heard anyone mention this method. Seems obvious to me. Basic starting question is "What room has the most enemies in the smallest space?" That narrows it down to only a small handful of rooms. Next question, "Which of these rooms can be reset the fastest on a kill loop?" Well, vertical movement is faster than horizontal movement since speedy horizontal movement costs a lot of MP, so preferably a room with a north entrance/exit. And finally, "What is the fastest way to kill many enemies that is consistently usable?" A screen nuke like Soul Steal, but that costs mp and a complex input. A free, simple nuke would be best. Neat, so Duplicator Power spam. Boom, Dark Octopi room, jump, land, nuke, repeat. That room is also great for Muramasa blood farming. Spam Daggers with both attack buttons for a fountain of blood on any semi-tanky enemy. No more hearts? Dupe Heart Refresh or Shield Rod Alucard Shield with Dupe Mana Prism for mp upkeep. Every empowered shield hit restores hearts and there's a ton of enemies to milk.

[@heyfrankevans]

@@gagejoseph91 oh, yeah, I thought you were just talking about familiars! but this is also probably the fastest way to get to level 99 with Alucard when you reach that EXP soft cap. I _did_ know about the Muramasa blood farming, I did quite a bit of that for fun (Didn't get far though, only like to +120 attack). Instead of using Heart Refresh, you can also use the Blood Cloak to get your hearts back, and bloodstone for maximum blood healing really funny how this joke room happens to be so useful lol

[@ChadwellJ]

Peeping Big and Max Slimer never got their due respect

[@stetsonshook8898]

I've never even sniffed 55 let alone 70 in a playthrough of SotN lol

[@heyfrankevans]

yeah it is SotN after all lol, not much leveling needed

[@LukeyMia4]

Don't need it, just Alucard Shield + Shield Rod your way to victory lmao

[@_jojo_joestar_]

sotn is prolly the easiest metroidvania game compared to the other games

[@marcosviniciusferreira6453]

I got a save where not only I got all itens in the game but level 99 as well. Farming for itens, upgrading muramasa, and all familiar to max level did the trick. All you need is time and a room full of enemies like the octupus room in inverted caverns

[@sonicthehedge]

This mechanic only really works if there is a "Metal Slime from DQ". Hard to kill and will always give the same high amount of exp.

[@TheGuzeinbuick]

That's such a great idea actually. It rewards you more for taking on enemies out of your league and also dissuades you from grinding. Essentially it keeps the game as difficult or as easy as it is supposed to be. Wish more games did this.

[@crumpetsack3909]

unfortunately it doesn't work very well because the balancing in this game is nonexistent. still pretty much a masterpiece, but the difficulty is all over the place

[@TheGuzeinbuick]

@@crumpetsack3909 In my experience, the entire game is easy except for the very first fight against the Doppleganger. After that you're pretty much never going to see the game over screen.

[@thedarkreaper2]

I got lv 99 by killing spectral swords from the inverted chapel, they give you 1 exp for every shield and spear, meaning that every time you kill it, it gives you 20exp, with power of sire or pentagram and duplicator you can kill spectral sword about three times a second

[@thedarkreaper2]

@nunyabeezwax6758 I can try with a chronometer, in what place do you say that it's easier?

[@rodiaz6652]

@@thedarkreaper2 big chapel with the 3d background (in the inverted royal chapel), next to the entrance to the colosseum

[@Freefall347]

There isn't really any need to get to level 99 though. If you just want to be powerful, then Alucard Shield + Shield Rod is already basically unbeatable. Even just grinding for double Crissaegrim will take way less time and get you way more powerful than leveling up to 99.

[@Geffro]

Yeah I don't see it as a 'problem', more like there's a softcap on leveling, but it's so high you don't need more levels anyways

[@johnschisler5381]

The plus was if you could kill strong enemies early you would just get multiple levels at once

[@heyfrankevans]

Exactly, it reduced grinding if you’re lower level. (It is SotN though, it’s not easy to make that game a challenge)

[@manuelernestoacebedo]

This remindsme of what we used to do back in the early 2000's to grind in Mu Online....

[@JoachimVampire]

HoD was the first non-spanish game i beaten. back in the day i had like 0 knowledge of english (despite the school teaching us (badly and poorly) as the 3rd language) and by the point i managed to kill dracula was lvl 73. that's how fucking long it took to realize all the shenanigans of the game lol xD and if i remember correctly i wore maxim's bracelet randomly....

[@heyfrankevans]

wow, 20 levels at 1 exp each... you must have been stuck there for ages lol

[@krewft]

the baião playing in background. Real reference to ' castelo da vania: sanfoneiro da noite' lol

[@UncleJazzboTheThird]

its called a soft cap, not the worst gatekeeping mechanic

[@heyfrankevans]

Soft caps definitely aren't a bad thing, but you do gotta admit this is an unnaturally harsh soft cap (Instead of slowing your progress, it pretty much stops it completely)

[@UncleJazzboTheThird]

@@heyfrankevans True, but beyond easy to break SOTN anyway lul

[@jendaar]

Awesome. Back when Symphony of the night came out we did a similar leveling glitch. We equipped the Medusa shield and went to one of the start rooms with the zombies. We taped down the shield button on the controller and let zombies walk into it. It was also handy to have a familiar equipped to let it level up. If you do it on some stairs and something goes wrong the knockback will push you to safety.

[@arek7688]

Mortvia fountain is jamming back there. Great choice and thanks to give credit to underrated Curse of darkness.

[@Hepponisme]

Tbh, level 50 on Harmony is enough, at least how i remember.

[@kimdokja1354]

even at level 40, you're good to go.

[@czerus2233]

And me and my pals didn't break a sweat getting Alucard to level 99 back in the day of PS1 era, it's like it came naturally while we figure out how to increase our map coverage of the game more than 210%. I think mine came out 211% I don't know that's why I'm revisiting SotN again on my PS4 Pro and find more out of bound glitch to escape the castle and unlock more castle mpa coverage.

[@PrincessColumbidae]

the worst part is theres a shop that opens based on your player level even-ness in dissonance, so if youre end-game grinding and kill too many enemies, it'll be another hour of grinding minimum to unlock that shop again.

[@Chaobreaker]

Harmony of Dissonance was the first Igarashi-produced Castlevania after SotN so it borrows a lot of mechanics from that game to its detriment. The leveling system, critical hits, the colour-changing cloaks, the 2nd castle, and even the merchant that only buys jewels from you all came from SotN. Circle of the Moon was made by the team behind the N64 Castlevania games.

[@dhr54]

Daaaamn I had no clue! I definitely wasted time killing enemies with huge HP pools and defence and definitely wasted time hahaha!

[@mikeL65000]

True that. But sotn is still my all time favorite game

[@Ace-Vincent-Arevalo]

Didn't know Suezo had an appearance in Castlevania

[@Knightimex]

In games like this, it's just better to have Level X as the highest level. In Wanders Ys3 on snes and genesis, the level cap was Level 12. You don't feel cheated that level 15 is unreachable, much less even existing.

[@plabcentral630]

Fuck your right this game does have peeping big (it my second fav one)

[@Appledirt]

Paper Mario has a similar system. 64 makes sense since that has a level cap of 27. TTYD is much more grindy, with a level cap of 99 and each encounter being 1 star point later on (out of 100 to level), not each enemy

[@proxy90909]

Peeping big goes hard

[@adamb89]

It's kinda like the speed of light--the closer you try to get, it takes increasingly more and more effort. And eventually you simply cannot put forth any additional effort, and so you are going as fast as you can ever go. Leveling up is the same way. It's hypothetically unlimited, but eventually you simply cannot invest any more of your life into it. And that's your max level.

[@harmansmith84]

You don’t need xp if you have the crissagrim

[@cajunmane7272]

by the time you get to a high level you can pretty much kill anything quickly, including the final boss, so why bother grinding to max level? You don't really need to.

[@JetOnFireStream]

the game where you play juste belmont has the same feature. first time i raged a little bit as i could figure out why i dont level anymore and stopped playing for a few month. :D

[@heyfrankevans]

Yea, that's harmony of dissonance, lol. Also love the tekken 4 steve pfp

[@javierenriquegarciajuarez9371]

I remeber gettin lvl 99 when i was a kid, maybe i got too much free time back then xD

[@IndieCave64]

Another reason to play another castlevania game much better like order of ecclesia, aria of sorrow or dracula's curse

[@EgaoKage]

If you're maxing out the Muramasa in your first play-through, so that you can pass it off to yourself on your hard-mode play-through, you'll be at level 99 long before the sword is anyway. So it's kind of a non-issue, if you're being truly obsessive.

[@opaljk4835]

The leveling system in this game kind of makes it too easy. It’s my only complaint about SOTN, and not a totally uncommon one. If the movement tech and atmosphere weren’t so great it would definitely damper the overall experience more

[@RocketZX]

In super Mario RPG (SNES) the level cap is 30. I spent 8 HOURS grinding the strongest exp wise enemy in the game, i went up 2 levels... 22 😂 i was prepping for the final boss i i thought id cap out first. At 22 i destroyed the final boss with no heals and he hit me 2 times in TOTAL across all his phases barely hurt I beat the extra boss solo as bowser (people said bowser is the worsr char, to put in perspective) There was no need to be lv30 I played again (snes) speed runnning, and for me i could beat it at lv 12 (theres a way to stay the min mario level 3, but im not crazy to do it😂)

[@NickSchoenfeld]

It would be way too easy to level up if that system wasn’t in place. Many MMORPGs do this for the same reason.

[@heyfrankevans]

I wouldn't say so, games like Portrait of Ruin or Curse of Darkness don't have the system but leveling up still feels natural. Getting to level 99 is still really difficult, just not pretty much impossible like in SotN.

[@tylerjames7015]

If only one exp is given from every enemy , then you don’t need to get any stronger

[@Near_Pluto_]

Peeping big my dawg

[@TazmilyGum]

Don’t talk shit about Harmony of Dissonance

[@heyfrankevans]

they hated HeyFrankEvans because he told them the truth

[@TazmilyGum]

@@heyfrankevans I HATE FRANK EVANS BECAUSE HE INSULTED MY FAVORITE VANIA GRRRRRRR

[@liquidaria4454]

I'm not sure this is especially unique. I can think of more than a few games that tone down EXP gains from enemies as you level up. And at that level I'd hope you'd be able to handle enemies in the game, especially with the weapons the game lays in your lap

[@fcomolineiro7596]

Eh, kinda makes you reach a "max level" where the game still posses a challenge even if you grind to max level

[@heyfrankevans]

I see what you mean. I still think you should be given the option though to get to the true maximum level (Besides, enemies still do crazy damage in other Castlevanias, even if you are max level)

[@fujiwaraofmokou]

The issue with this is that the highest level you can be in SoTN while the game is still a challenge is like 20 - so like an effective level cap of 70 is just overkill

[@kamikeserpentail3778]

Yeah but you never need to grind, so it's not like this matters.

[@michaeldebidart]

I have an ungodly hatred for xp based games that have diminishing returns. The only game series I can forgive for it is Borderlands because of True Vault Hunter mode so there’s never really a point where none of the enemies give you any decent xp in any of the games

[@connertheskylandergeek]

I love harmony of dissonance so please stop dissing it

[@heyfrankevans]

I can't, I was put here for a reason and I'm pretty sure it's just to diss harmony of dissonance

[@adrianamorphous]

Aint no one needing to grind in this game idk who you are

[@heyfrankevans]

it's for the cool number you wouldn't understand

[@adrianamorphous]

@@heyfrankevans lol fair. I need a harder rom hack of this game tbh

[@tatsumaru12345]

Harmony of dissonance is the only GBA/ds metroidvania I play through occasionally. The others are fine for one playthrough. But never felt compelled to replay them.

[@heyfrankevans]

hey, if you like the game that's totally fine. But for me it's just the only Castlevania I've _never_ enjoyed playing through, heck I even remember having fun with Haunted Castle

[@Cronoistight]

No love for Aria of Sorrow?

[@_ImJstJake]

I just mostly farm items and eventually ill level up already beaten it.

[@mrwizard5012]

Its pretty stupid. In both games your xp requirements raise exponentially, and you dont get much stats from a level up in the first place. Enemy levels are arbitrary. Dont add layers of disincentive unless you need to.

[@mannydavis8190]

I remember grinding level 99, it took me couple of weeks on the inverted chapel, where the summoned sword is, ngl that design sure is badly implemented..

[@chikoleefium5728]

only guy complaining would be that one gamefaqs guy that tells you to max out in the first area

[@wibblywobbly391]

I fail to see the problem if you will never need to be a higher level then that

[@TheNameIsSR]

Is this really an issue though? I mean, this mechanic ensures that the game stays consistently challenging. You can't just grind for 2 hours in order to make the game trivial.

[@heyfrankevans]

it's not _really_ a huge problem, it's just a mechanic with some flaws in my opinion. I agree that in theory this could be a great mechanic, keeping the game challenging like you said, but while being balanced so you naturally reach a higher level through the game. They could make it so that level 70 in SotN now would rebalanced to be level 99 instead, keeping the benefits without keeping players from reaching the maximum level if they really want to. Even as it is, though, Symphony has Crissaegrim anyway

[@geko1410]

Im curious as if this is true, it takes loads of time to make it to 99 in sont, i did attain that lv but i dodnt remember the upsidedown knights giving this low exp, or was it done on the newer ps4 version?.

[@heyfrankevans]

this was recorded in the playstation version, so no clue how you got to 99 without noticing the ridiculously low amount of exp you get lol (Maybe you left your game on for a while with a familiar out in the merman room or something? Idk)

[@geko1410]

@@heyfrankevans i can be honest i had lots of time, u just made me wanna try playing again 😂 my question was honest no ill intent btw, i rember leveling my familiars was 1 exp so i did spam those octopus on the upsidedown castle near the doppelganger, i dont mean to question u in fact ima go check my self ty ur vid is awesome btw.

[@mothman566]

does that apply to familiars? cause if it doesn't it would be great, I heard that when you max out your familiars cannot get any exp anymore, so I've always tried to be conservative with my grinding till I unlock all familiars

[@heyfrankevans]

So I'm not really sure how the familiar exp system works, but I'm pretty sure they level up independently to Alucard, and this mechanic also doesn't affect them. They need so little EXP to level up anyway though that I don't think it would matter if it did, just grind off the ruler sword in the anti chapel and it should only take around 30 minutes to max one out

[@TheGamingDandy]

Do you need to be higher than level 70 anyway?

[@RocketZX]

How do you have exp showing up on kill like that? Never seen it like that i always have to pause to see exp change.

[@heyfrankevans]

Oh, it doesn't show up in game, I just edited it in there! Happy it looks realistic though

[@Selnathorn]

Good lord, as if Harmony of Dissonance needed more thins that would make people not play the game. The gameplay and the movement tech are wonderfully indepth, but it gets bogged down by an awful color palette, sub-par music and confusing castle layout and progression. You really have to love the game to play it more than once.

[@Monocheto1]

I really love it, 200%it the other day😂

[@Selnathorn]

@@Monocheto1 Sweet, if you ever get the chance, try the recolor hack. It makes some areas really look amazing

[@VJFranzK]

interesting!

[@KaoruMzk]

Why would you even need to get to such high levels though? It's not like those games were particularly hard.

[@turnkey_hole]

I unironically prefer having a soft cap for Alucard. I think having arbitrary caps like 50 or 99 or 100 is cheesy and lame.

[@heyfrankevans]

why? genuinely curious lol

[@turnkey_hole]

@@heyfrankevans RPG mechanics in games tend to allow players to cheese the challenges set forth by the game (sometimes without realizing it), creating a significantly easier experience than intended. That's fine, but it can and does often trivialize all the work that went into actually designing the player experience. I think that's fine if you're designing a game for a child, but I think the player shouldn't be able to so significantly subvert the intended experience without realizing it and taking steps to take off their seatbelt so to speak. So for Pokemon, as an example, think "My Charizard is level 40 after my second badge" vs "I am doing a mono type challenge run." Pokemon RBY had a really well refined intended experience that most players totally missed because the game didn't have better guardrails. If you're interested, there's a good KZbin essay by ... I think his name is ji_mothy? That really opened my eyes to the intentions of the dev team for Gen 1, and how something like a soft level cap could be helpful. Another example of this done right (sorry, Pokemon again) is Pokemon Clover, a fan game. It enforces a soft level cap to keep the boss fights and gym leaders relevant at every stage of the game.

[@mauguicax1287]

how you make the kick dive but the kind of dash that does at the end?

[@heyfrankevans]

you gotta be close to the ground, dive kick, and let go of everything before you hit the ground. Also works in Aria of sorrow!

[@fatalfury28]

You really need to level after criss? Or even shield rod Goddamn

[@heyfrankevans]

no lol, there's really no reason to grind in a game as easy as symphony or harmony of dissonance. Just a weird quirk I learned about

[@Monocheto1]

​@@heyfrankevansfr lol, the only difficulty spike i had during HoD was the sewers area, but after getting the ice whip and past the boss its all easy again

[@bryandavid192]

Isn't Harmony of Dissonance the only game where a Belmont has character levels?

[@heyfrankevans]

dawn, portrait, mirror of fate, and simon's quest all have belmonts that can level up.

[@bryandavid192]

@heyfrankevans doesn't Richter start at lv. 99 in Richter mode in PoR? And I figured Julius would start at max level, too. Ultimately, I believe I misspoke. I feel like it's extremely rare for a Belmont-centered (Morrises not being Belmonts) game to have character levels for the main character.

[@heyfrankevans]

@@bryandavid192 no, I'm pretty sure they both start at level 1 like the main character. Your second statement is completely right though, character levels are pretty rare in games with a belmont as the main character

[@bryandavid192]

@heyfrankevans I'm willing to stand corrected on the DS alternative modes, and I can go as far as to say that I confirmed that you're correct. I could have just supposed that they shouldn't level up, and therefore, they don't, which is just silly. I just feel as though the Belmonts start out as peerless warriors throughout the series and have little room to grow in basic capability, so I find myself rejecting the idea of levels, perhaps too much.

[@bryandavid192]

I don't count the LoS series as the comparable to the main series, though. The premise, the family structure, and the mechanics of the game are all completely different. It might as well be a totally different franchise in my opinion.

[@phillystevesteak6982]

Makeshift level scaling mechanic. I do not approve

[@sairanalberto2724]

You should be allowed to get a special relic that bypass this mechanic, maybe after completing the game once? IDK, farming for lvl 99 is nice for a 100% completion, I did it once on Aria and wish I dont have to deal with it on other Castle games...

[@DanoLefourbe]

It's really not an issue at all. By the time you get to 70, you're vastly overleveled for anything the game has to offer.

[@heyfrankevans]

"unnecessary drawback" would have been a better choice of words. The other castlevanias without the mechanic pretty much get the same result with no soft cap

[@jeremyallen5974]

This is right up there with Dark Souls screwing your stat gains over as you level up instead of MAKING THEM GET BETTER over time like a GOOD RPG would do.

[@lucy-pero]

you haven't explained why this is even an issue. Why do u want to go past 70? the game is insanely easy already. Maybe it was totally intended?

[@heyfrankevans]

It's just an unnecessary restriction, it's not a big deal at all. Just found it was interesting to talk about

[@SmakToj]

W

[@TizioVerde]

I never enjoyed the level ups in castleva and other metroidvania. It either discourage exploration or forces you to play an overly easy game

[@heyfrankevans]

I definitely agree with SotN and Harmony, those games are way too easy. But I'd say Order of Ecclesia and Circle of the Moon do good jobs of keeping the game difficult, even with level ups.

[@ChrisDelChris]

Harmony of Dissonance is such an ugly game.

[@ابوك-ز6ك]

Who cares the game is pretty easy in the first place i forgot it even had a leveling system

[@heyfrankevans]

obviously this game is stupid easy, it's not some huge deal. I just thought it was fun to talk about