TAB Episode 72: The US M1917 In British Home Guard Service

In May 1940, with the threat of invasion, Britain raised the a militia force. This Home Guard would eventually number more than a million men. The challenge was how to a these men, many would eventually be equipped with the US M1917 - in this video we explore the American rifle's service with the British Home Guard.
Chapters:
0:00 - Intro
0:50 - Early history P13, P14 & M1917
03:45 - The M1917 enters Home Guard service
04:55 - A closer look at the M1917
05:25 - The M1917 at the range
08:55 - Archival footage of Home Guard Training
11:10 - Conclusion
Be sure to check out our accompanying article for this video here -
armourersbench.com/2020/08/23...
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[@TheArmourersBench]

Thanks for watching guys, filmed peak Covid lockdown so enjoy the beard. Hope you found it interesting, check out the accompanying blog here - armourersbench.com/2020/08/23/us-m1917s-in-british-home-guard-service/ - Matt

[@2TomDog]

I own a P14 that was in Home Guard service, and though it's over 100 years old, it's still a tack driver.

[@TheArmourersBench]

I love a P14 to complete the pair. Lovely rifles. Thanks for watching. We'll cover the P14 in its own right in the future I'm sure.

[@azkrouzreimertz9784]

when you said "war was declared" i was expecting the transition that they have in the C&R videos

[@TheArmourersBench]

Haha was tempted to do a C&Rsenal war were declared inspired montage

[@azkrouzreimertz9784]

@@TheArmourersBench would have been pretty funny! maybe next time:)

[@MickCarroll-fx7kf]

Used em for about 30 yrs in a reenactment group as Home Guard P14/M17

[@skylongskylong1982]

In 1976 when I was in the Air Cadets, I remember chatting to an elderly gentleman who was a veteran of the First World War, and member of the Essex Home Guard. He said just before they were stood down, they were issued with modern USA radios( walky talky type), and brand new M3 sub machine guns , and Garand rifles. A drastic change from turning up for a parade in 1940 with the families shotgun, and Mauser boomhandle pistol he had as a trophy from the Great War.

[@TheArmourersBench]

Garands! I've never heard that before that's very interesting. By 1944 some of the Home Guard units were far from Dad's Army, quite well trained and lot of young men from the essential occupations.

[@zoiders]

It was probably cheaper to leave them behind in Britain than ship them back to the US. I bet the lot went in the channel or got cut in half and lobbed into the nearest cut. The NRA types will sneer at that but no one wanted weapons by 1946. They were an unpleasant reminder of conscription and warfare.

[@chriswerb7482]

The UK, surprisingly, DID receive a substantial quantity of M1 Garand rifles early in WW2 (apparently 38,001) but I am unaware of any WW2 use thereof. Some were used by the Royal Marines in Korea. Many subsequently turned up on the US surplus market. This article covers them: www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2016/6/30/garands-in-the-kings-service/ Late in the war, some Home Guard units directly supporting the invasion, received No. 4 rifles, but they were stood down shortly thereafter.

[@TheArmourersBench]

@@chriswerb7482 I've certainly heard of the RM Commando Garand use. I assumed those were issued in theatre but not something I've dug into!

[@zoiders]

@@chriswerb7482 I doubt the Garands the Royal Marines used came from the WW2 stock. They were issued with Garands in Korea as they were attached to the US forces and were included in their supply chain. Meaning the US wanted them using 30-06 and .45 ACP as the US did not have much .303 or 9x19mm handy for them. They were even issued with US battle dress uniforms which certainly did not come from lend lease stores, or the M1A1s, M3 Grease Guns or 1911As.

[@p03saucez]

Best rifle of WWI. Wish I'd moved on an M1917 when they were still "cheap" here in the US.

[@classicgunstoday1972]

I just started kicking myself over that. 15 years ago, I saw a 1903 Springfield in a small Texas gunshop for just $300. Good luck getting that now. At the time I had just developed an interest in guns and wasn’t interested in bolt action guns.

[@p03saucez]

@@classicgunstoday1972 Wish I was buying guns and kits 15 years ago. Only real deals I ever find anymore are with random pawns, small FFLs, and private parties.

[@splashdownuk1]

not as good as S.M.L.E

[@zaqpak9391]

I think the Denbighshire Home Guard Battalion you mentioned in this video was the 11th (Ministry of Food) Battalion Denbighshire Home Guard based at Colwyn Bay and Old Colwyn. They were lucky to receive Ross Rifles early on, one Home Guard platoon at Trefor had a couple of Lee Enfields from WW1, and the rest was WW1 modifications of the Martini Henry rifle!! Later on in mid 1941 they were mostly replaced with P14's and P17's, both good rifles! But like you said, they P17 was a superior rifle in the right hands. Well trained men who knew the rifle well (an all of them did!) could get good groupings on range, so imagine if the Germans popped over! Nice video!

[@TheArmourersBench]

Yes indeed! I do believe it was that unit. They had a veritable plethora of rifles issued by the sounds of it. Thanks for watching and your comment.

[@BHuang92]

A British design produced in America and used by the majority of Americans during WW1, only to see service again in WW2 by the British. Britain + America × America = Britain

[@TheArmourersBench]

Yep. = good rifle!

[@gabrielinostroza4989]

Those aiming and grip strength exercises look very useful, i'm surprised they haven't become a staple of training since.

[@samiam619]

JHC! When you said “War was declared“, I was expecting snippets of Great War film ala CnArsenal! 😆

[@tracey1013]

I just bought a sporterized Eddystone P14 that I'm going to put back into full military configuration. I can't wait to get in the mail. Doing the same thing with a sporterized Springfield 1093, that is at the gunsmith to get checked out as it was a 1911 built rifle with low serial numbers. Great video and now you have a new subscriber.

[@TheArmourersBench]

Great to have you onboard Tracey, really glad you enjoyed the video. You're doing great work putting them back to how they should be!

[@DagaYute]

Neat video! I really enjoy info on the home guard for some reason. Maybe too much Dad's Army growing up.

[@SlavicCelery]

Love the video! Also, I appreciate the fact that you have used the American nomenclature of pronouncing the 30-06. It drives me batty when people say "Thirty Zero Six".

[@TheArmourersBench]

Haha thanks Timothy. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I'm a firm believer in using the right nomenclature!

[@icecoffee1361]

Great channel found it today subscribed 👍🏻

[@TheArmourersBench]

Thank you! That's for watching, hope you enjoy some of the other videos!

[@icecoffee1361]

@@TheArmourersBench watched a couple just watching the football but I will be 👍🏻

[@franklopez6349]

Thanks for posting on the rifles used br Dad's Army... I am now of the proper age to do an WW2 impression if the Home Guard...

[@hamm6035]

A very good video. Well done.

[@TheArmourersBench]

Thank you, thanks for watching!

[@pilgrimm23]

Well done! I own a 1917 as well. Mine had been "sporterized" sometime in the 1950s. I happend to have a full 1917 stock and coupled with a stack of parts from Numrich Arms I re-created a standard 1917. Yours looks far more standard and nice then mine but, as a Great Grand Uncle served in WWI who was issued one of these; I have his bootcamp marksmanship book (Soldier's Handbook for the RIFLE and Score Book for Special Course C Arranged for the United States Rifle Model of 1917) and a copy of SMALL ARMS FIRING MANUAL 1913 (corrected to April 1917). I now have the correct Rifle to match Uncle Ben's book. This is a very comprehensive view of the rifle and very well researched. My Compliments.

[@TheArmourersBench]

You've done an old rifle a good deed there! Those are lovely things to have, real pieces of history. Thanks for watching and the kind feedback!

[@garethfairclough8715]

Christ, It's nuts just how little "running up targets" had changed between this footage and when I did similar stuff about 10 years ago!

[@TheArmourersBench]

Haha they're timeless! I manned a range that looks just like that one just a few months ago.

[@patrickwentz8413]

War was declared! Where have I heard that before?!

[@ByronGiant]

Your video and audio quality has really improved. Your beard as well! Looking forward to more.

[@TheArmourersBench]

Thank you! Always striving, on both counts haha. Thanks for watching.

[@rogueriderhood1862]

My father was in the Home Guard and said the M.17 was a very good rifle. He once spent an evening with his father, also in the Home Guard, unpacking and cleaning a consignment of rifles, a rather dirty job. I would love to know what my grandfather thought about the M.17, he had been in infantryman in the First World War with a SMLE, I wonder how they compared.

[@TheArmourersBench]

Ahh fascinating. I'd love to know what he and his comrades thought of them but so few wrote down their thoughts and opinions sadly. Thanks for watching, hope you found it interesting.

[@RyeOnHam]

Excellent. I have several. Two originals, a sporterized one, and then one my Grandfather bought between the wars. They are excellent rifles. I can shoot better with these sights than any iron-sighted rifle.

[@anarchyandempires5452]

Those are still iron sights, I think you mean than any notch sighted rife no? because aperture sights are still iron sights the best kind of iron sights yes but still iron sights.

[@brianballard5509]

Would be glad to send you a nice KERR sling for that.

[@TheArmourersBench]

That's very kind of you Brian, I have been meaning to get one for it.

[@GIR9595]

I'm sorry but i'm not quite sure what you mean by "war was declared." I think you mean "war were declared!"

[@TheArmourersBench]

Hahah you're quite right of course.

[@GIR9595]

@@TheArmourersBench btw that might be my favorite bolt action in my very small but growing collection it is just so rock solid!

[@TheArmourersBench]

They really are great rifles, I'd love a P14 to complete the pair.

[@b.griffin317]

He translated it into British. 😉

[@GIR9595]

@@b.griffin317 they even have the gall to think it's their language or some nonsense!

[@classicgunstoday1972]

“Some may have been disappointed having to exchange their rifle for an American Rifle.” Ha! Funny. Our men in WW1, including Sgt Alvin York, often referred to the 1917 as a “British Rifle” (because of it’s requested design origins) and preferred the “American Rifle” (1903 Springfield) because open rather than peep sights is what we were used to at that time. To many Americans, it was a British rifle that we just made for you and just rechambered for our needs. It’s too bad the .276 cartridge never was able to go anywhere or it might have been your high powered rimless version of our .30-06 cartridge and the 1913 might have been the rifle that won both World Wars for the British. Would have liked to have seen the .276 performance alongside our esteemed powerful yet versatile .30-06. Great video. I’ve been debating myself on getting a 1903 Springfield or a 1917 Enfield. Good to see a perspective and story different from just the WW1 youtube videos that take you through the American Expeditionary Force of WW1.

[@SlavicCelery]

.276 was just too hot for the metallurgy of the day (Or so I've heard). I can't say right now that it's accurate or not, because I don't have primary sources in front of me. But I thought it was issues with throat erosion. Also that may have been moreso because of the propellants and less so because of barrels. I do find it interesting as much as there's a lot of blind SMLE love (war rifle not a hunting rifle like mausers!), when the Brits when to replace it, they basically embraced a whole lot of mauser elements. To me that is one of the more damning reviews of the SMLE.

[@geezerp1982]

@@SlavicCelery the cock on close lee enfield rifles with they detachable 10 round mag was most suprior rifle for both world wars ! only the M1 Garand could be beat it, but even then the lee was not far behind it with a trained rifle man

[@robertrobert7924]

What happened to all those P-17s after WW2 ended? Where did they go? Were they returned to the U.S. ? I have always wanted a P-14 in .303 to go with my Aussie SMLE, and my Savage No. 4.

[@samiam619]

Well, mine came back. From Canada or GB I don’t know. But it has the red warning strip on it…

[@tomhenry897]

The British dumped them in the ocean Along with the civilian arms they begged Americans to donate to them

[@da90sReAlvloc]

There in dad's army

[@patrickwentz8413]

Interesting. I never knew the P14 was used by the regular British Army in WW II. I wonder which regiments got them.

[@TheArmourersBench]

Territorial Army battalions would be my best guess at the moment.

[@splashdownuk1]

@@TheArmourersBench P14 was used in Normandy by some regular army snipers.

[@TheArmourersBench]

@@splashdownuk1 yes, there's a couple of we'll known photos of that, even some footage in NW Europe. Sounds like a video I need to make!

[@splashdownuk1]

Atleast one royal Norfolk regiment sniper had one

[@TheArmourersBench]

Are there accounts of its use?

[@Sinky-06]

Didn’t they use p14 also

[@TheArmourersBench]

They did indeed. That's one of the reasons they put the red paint band on the M1917, to prevent ammunition mixups.

[@doom5895]

Home guard service but no second ammendment?

[@TheArmourersBench]

Firearms ownership in the 40s was certainly less restricted in the UK and during the early stages of the Home Guard's predecessor - the LDV, personally owned firearms were used. But yes, its an interesting dynamic, there being no statute for the right to own firearms in the UK and the state essentially arming a militia. Thanks for watching!

[@tomhenry897]

Can’t have the peasants owning guns Might over throw the government Look what happened in 1776