Taking a ride in Toyota's hydrogen fuel cell semi

I recently got a chance to go for a demo ride in a Kenworth T680 powdered by a pair of Toyota's hydrogen fuel cells with executive program manager Chris Rovik. even at it's maximum 82,000 lb weight, it has a range of 300 miles and refuels in 15 minutes

[@trainandtruckmodeler786]

As a otr driver I can't wait for this....I have a friend who got her diesel/hydro k whopper a few weeks ago....alot of truck stops in Arizona have LP and are now talking about hydro.

[@adrianthoroughgood1191]

Obviously faster refuelling will save you time compared to a BEV truck, but is that time really worth paying 4x times as much per mile?

[@trainandtruckmodeler786]

@@adrianthoroughgood1191 it's a lot cheaper than diesel....I got ask her what it cost next time I talk to her....Canadian Pacific rebuilt 2 locomotives from the 1980s....the claim hydrogen gets 21 mpg vs the 7 mpg of diesel and cost over 74 percent cheaper ....people in new Zealand and Australia claim it's less then half to fill up then diesel...

[@adrianthoroughgood1191]

@@trainandtruckmodeler786 I took a look at the Kenworth trucks. While it is possible to make an ICE that can run on more than one type of fuel, I could not find any dual fuel trucks sold by them. The Kenworth Hydrogen Truck released a few months ago is using a fuel cell and that can only run on Hydrogen. So I don't think there is such a thing as a Diesel/Hydrogen hybrid. The price you pay at the pump depends on taxes and subsidies as well as the production costs. But if you exclude those, hydrogen is the most expensive type of fuel. There's no way it's cheaper than Diesel per mile. You don’t usually measure Hydrogen in gallons, you measure it in kg, because the volume depends on how compressed it is. The thing you need to understand about Hydrogen is there are several ways to make it. Currently 98% of Hydrogen production is made from fossil fuels. Using Hydrogen made this way is actually worse for the environment than burning fossil fuels. You can also make Hydrogen using renewable electricity which is called Green Hydrogen and that is very good for the environment. But it takes 3 times as much electricity per mile to run on Hydrogen than using a battery powered vehicle, plus the equipment to make Hydrogen is expensive and the storage and transport is expensive. So at best when things improve with economies of scale it's going to cost at least 4x as much to run a Green Hydrogen truck as a battery truck. In the future when we have phased out fossil fuels these will be the 2 options. That was my original question: If it takes 15 minutes to refuel a Hydrogen truck and 35 minutes to recharge a battery truck, is that extra 20 minute saving going to be worth paying 4x as much for the fuel?

[@trainandtruckmodeler786]

@@adrianthoroughgood1191 you have to get them threw Kenworth of Canada ...the company I work for that is not a big deal since we are less then a hour away....there is a company in Canada...well several now that do conversions to run hydrogen and diesel both....one of the company's is on KZbin....they rebuilt a 2013 Kenworth W9....and for the heck of it rebuilt a 1980s Mack....they are out there....they are certainly not common yet....railways are starting to use hydrogen as well...there are fueling stations all over California as well as cars, and from there to Oklahoma they are installing pumps at TA and Pilot....just give it time....by mid summer you will see it more common in the USA.... hydrogen is being hauled like crazy threw Kentucky and Tennessee for these reasons...

[@trainandtruckmodeler786]

@@adrianthoroughgood1191 you are confusing this whole conversation....the hydrogen your thinking of us the type that the Hindenburg was powered by....the hydrogen for vehicles comes from geothermal production and is a paste when the mine it ...not a gas...

[@robertbellini6491]

A realistic solution to green transportation. Our future requires hydrogen!

[@adrianthoroughgood1191]

300 miles is a surprisingly small range. The Tesla truck has a loaded range of 500 miles. I expect this one has a larger load capacity, but both companies are refusing to actually tell us what the weight / load capacity is. The point of using hydrogen is to get a longer range vehicle than is practical with batteries. If you only need 300 miles then you might as well use battery as the running costs will always be much lower. You need about 3x as much electricity per mile to run on green hydrogen. The Mercedes hydrogen truck is targeting a range of 1000 miles which makes a lot more sense in terms of being better than battery for that range.

[@chrissmith2114]

The Tesla truck takes many hours to charge even when plugged directly into a power station, this truck takes 15 minutes .... With white hydrogen at US$1 per Kg this truck would cost US$60 in fuel to do 300 miles with a bigger payload than a battery truck.

[@adrianthoroughgood1191]

@@chrissmith2114 not true. The Tesla semi can charge to 70% in 30 minutes. In Europe truck drivers have to take a break longer than that during their shift. If you obey the speed limits and driving hours limits the truck can go as far as the driver is allowed to drive in one day. I'm doubtful that white hydrogen will be commercially exploitable at scale. But even if it is, the $1 estimate only covers getting it out of the ground. To power a HFC it has to be very pure so it has to be purified and then compressed and transported to the filling station which may be very far away from the well. The actual retail price will be much higher. There may be some circumstances when using hydrogen is worth it, for very long distances where charging isn't available, eg in Canada. But hydrogen only makes sense with a big tank giving a long range, like the Mercedes. A 300 mile range truck is stupid.

[@chrissmith2114]

@@adrianthoroughgood1191 You need to realise that this Kenwood / Toyota experiment to replace the engine on an older truck with hydrogen PSU is the forerunner of great things, and is a good alternative to designing a truck around its battery. I hope you realise how much power the charger has to supply to charge up a EV truck in a short time ( we are talking megawatt sized chargers here ), and already California and London are asking EV owners not to charge their car batteries because the power grid cannot handle it. The ultimate goal for selling Hydrogen is US$1 per Kg selling price.... and White hydrogen holds the promise of that. Toyota and other clever people know that everybody using battery EV is a pipe dream that the renewable generation sector can never hope to keep pace with demand, because even now in California once the sun goes down the electrical power grid is about 80% fossil fuel powered.

[@chrissmith2114]

Being able to retro-fit older trucks with this package is great, instead of having to build the whole truck around the battery.

[@ranjithamarakoon8842]

I appreciate you work.go ahead good luck.

[@TellurideS13]

Wait for the Cummins X15 hydrogen

[@riccjaccson6876]

This is gonna be nice. No more clutch and less fumes. Just driving, paying attention to the road and guages.

[@paulthedens212]

How many of these drivetrains has Toyota produced? And what is the price to retro fit an existing diesel system, for example daycab ih 2016

[@alpzepta]

This Toyota hydrogen looks like something they would put on a Hino

[@NackDSP]

How much per mile? It's three times the cost per mile of a battery powered class 8 truck. What? No orders? No factory? Just a single truck they didn't build. Just a garage operation that loaded a fuel cell into an old diesel from Kenworth. A small team of new college graduates could have converter one truck in 18 months. So what. Never mind. It's the factory that's hard to build. No factory, no product, no shits to give.

[@acapulco1231]

That truck is a KENWORTH. !!!

[@Shadownian]

Hydrogen is nice and all...but its not there and wont be for a long time. Also they are using a kenworth to show off the tech. They arent making their own trucks. I wish beyond wishing that Toyota would just get into the semi truck market all the way. Make their own trucks. No hydrogen. Just toyota reliability, comfort, fuel economy, parts and service connections etc. They would dominate the market. They already own Hino work trucks. So why not go all they way? In 5 years people would be saying Freightliner who?!? If Toyota made a normal semi truck I would be first in line to get one. I wouldn't even care about the growing pains and the issues that would be sure to come at first. You could still test out hydrogen or even try their hand at maybe a hybrid engine. They are the kings of hybrids after all. That doesnt have to stop. The only difference would be they would have a whole new revenue stream that could fund the research, and they would have their own trucks to work on and test with. Please Toyota...just make a normal semi....im begging you!

[@Majimo22021]

I like how the truck thinks it still has the diesel engine by how the rpm’s show the regular idle speed

[@santiagoanderson9621]

You mean a Kenworth hydrogen truck?

[@cosme2032]

How much for conversion?

[@ningqw4115]

this truck have two fuel cells , what's the power of the each fuel cell ?

[@homomorphic]

Somewhat disappointing that someone who drives the truck daily (and is an executive program manager) doesn't understand how fuel cells work (or if they do, does not explain it correctly). Fuels cells don't "make electricity" any more than a battery makes electricity. The fuel cell *is* a battery (a type of flow battery) that discharges the potential energy in the chemical bonds between hydrogen and oxygen. A fuel cell has hundreds of cathodes and anodes just like a battery does. The only fundamental way in which it differs from a lithium ion battery is that the energy is stored in a gaseous medium, rather than a solid medium and because it is a gas, a "battery swap" is easily and rapidly achieved by simply transferring gaseous hydrogen from the place where it is charged, to the vehicle where it can be discharged. Also, because the medium is a gas, in order to discharge it, the gas first flows over the cathode and across the PEM (as protons) and then across the anode where it combines with oxygen. This is why a fuel cell is a type of flow battery. Because hydrogen is elastic it allows complete decoupling between time of charge and time of use (and that is the big advantage over batteries). Also, the fuel cell does directly drive the wheels 95% of the time (not the battery). The battery is used to capture energy during braking and to provide instantaneous current when initially accelerating. btw, 60kg == 2MWh

[@MikeSwartz]

The big difference is a BEV requirements are input of electricity to then get electricity output. So he is correct, the FCEV is literally making electricity as the input was not even electricity.

[@homomorphic]

@@MikeSwartzthat's incorrect the input *was* electricity. That's how the hydrogen was charged. The hydrogen is then moved into the vehicle where it is discharged.

[@ijohnny.]

TY for the explanation.

[@paulg3336]

Correct. I would add that nothing "makes electricity". The electrons are always there , in all normal matter. Batteries, fuel cells , generators etc. create a potential difference which will cause a current to flow in conductors. The motors allow that current to be converted to mechanical energy. It's analogous to a hydraulic drive system. The hydraulic fluid is always in the system, the pump imparts energy to the fluid and the hydraulic motors convert it back to mechanical energy.

[@chrissmith2114]

If the fuel cell is not producing electricity what the hell is making the truck move Bro ? A Battery stores electricity by chemical reaction, but when you ask for it it is electricity that comes back out..

[@afshonium5799]

I saw HyAxiom!

[@Flirterwavestudio]

Can't wait for greener economic transport

[@DAVIS__]

Cost to fill up?

[@markclark4154]

$26.75/kg X 60 kg= $1605

[@chrissmith2114]

@@markclark4154 The reckon white hydrogen will get down to near US$1 / Kg

[@mrboags]

HYLA 💦 ENERGY

[@paullarue4896]

can I have one?

[@kidplayinginthemud9284]

Every vehicle has emissions

[@BusFan-nu1kd]

This one’s is only water

[@Yondaily]

This is not a Toyota truck it's a Kenworth correction!!!

[@homomorphic]

It's a kenworth chassis, 100% of the powertrain is Toyota

[@darrellgerrard973]

A 300 mile rage for a semi truck. What a waste of money.

[@homomorphic]

It could easily be configured for more range, but this is a drayage truck, configuring it for more than 300 miles fully loaded would be a waste.

[@jgoldsmith422]

Small steps, bud. Small steps. Will get there sooner then you think.

[@chrissmith2114]

Can be refueled in 15 minutes, just like a regular diesel truck.

[@ronniebenoit4081]

You lost me at "we're from california"

[@Will-vk9th]

I wish you had asked about transmission development on these models. Like if you have a oversized load, I can’t imagine it just being a normal tranny..