Talking point: girth hitching the sling throught the belay loop

Here's a classic argument among the climber circles, so I thought I would throw my hat in the ring and talk about some considerations about why we got to this point in the first place.
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[@paulmorrey4298]

Thanks Ryan

[@vinceburris2538]

Ryan, thanks for making the talking point videos.

[@JoBianco]

Good clarification. Having not thought to hard about it, I would normally girth hitch the tie in points, but thanks for thinking through it for us!

[@emurray100]

I think the key point it to remove the item from your harness - it allows you to inspect it, whether it be the belay loop or you tie in points.

[@tjb8841]

Yes, that’s what I have started doing too.

[@bottlecapman213]

Bro pls don’t stop making these

[@sabindaman]

Where is the previous video you referenced about the petzel adjust?

[@Chris-Wernette]

Second this! I prefer the dual connect adjust but would love to hear Ryan’s take on it! I learn so much from all the things he’s considered that I hadn’t even thought of

[@martincrash1]

Very nice information

[@NPC-fl3gq]

Todd Skinner could've/should've tied a loop of 7-8mm accessory rope through his tie-in points to back up his belay loop. Had he done this he'd almost certainly still be alive. I read a book just a few days ago which covered the Skinner incident - and the guy who wrote it was Todd's mate and old climbing buddy, and he said it was Todd's fault and that he should've known better. He put it down to complacency basically. Todd had a new harness on order so he knew his current one wasn't safe... ...But I guess he thought "well one more climb can't hurt..."

[@albinomattosfilho9394]

this is the type of comment I like to read.... congrats for thinking the same.... always double everything, redundancy is life.....

[@Sicnus]

Ryan, you are doing it wrong! /s (JK JK) I get all of the points you are making. I loved Todd Skinner. Ran into him one time @ Hueco Tanks or rather... he ran into us. What was embaressing is we had JUST gotten to a climb he did in Moving over Stone II... and we had the whole bit he says memorized. We started saying it and he walked up at that exact moment. We were pretty fucking embarressed lol. Where was I? Oh yeah... I think you are right in that if you Girth Hitch to your belay loop once or twice you probably aren't going to die. But... it is a bad practice (even if you rotate it) to do often for the exact reasons you explained. The belay loop doesn't have the extra beefyness that the tie-in points do. I do this for aiding, I have 2x Petzl connects one for each belay loop but I don't keep them on the belay loop and I'm not taking whippers onto them and I'm always tied in. Couldn't find your petzl connect vid bud. :/ Keep going man!

[@perplexedon9834]

I have a PAS practice I do where I girth hitch a 120cm sling to the belay loop, and then pass a bight back through the belay loop and clip the biner into the bight and the original loop. It's kind of like how you store alpine draws, so you can clip in short with the biner, or drop one of the loops and use the full length. As far as I know I came up with this, though I'm sure others have too. Is there any glaring problem I haven't thought of?

[@ambrose13]

Played with this for a minute. Thought it was kind of cool, but the folding and unfolding was a little more fuss than I'd like to deal with on a long multi rappel

[@ralfrussel1950]

Doesn't Aramid wear through the belay loop faster since it's so abrasive resistant? None of the wear on the sling and all on the belay loop?

[@patrickw.deegan7876]

Probably not in any appreciable way. The key is to monitor the safety of all the gear before use.

[@NPC-fl3gq]

You'd have to take it on a case by case basis. I have numerous aramid slings/cords etc and they all feel different - so I couldn't make any blanket statements about "aramid fibres do this/don't do this" etc.

[@burnsbabe87]

Oh geez, all the old school guys I've started climbing with clip into their tie-in points for belaying. I recognize that I'm not gonna die if they're belaying me, but it still kinda drives me nuts.

[@Phoenixhunter157]

They don’t use the belay loop for belaying?

[@burnsbabe87]

@@Phoenixhunter157 Nope. It just wasn't really a part of harnesses when they learned, and so they keep doing what they're doing. They put the locking biner through both tie-in points, and put the ATC and rope through the biner.

[@Phoenixhunter157]

@@burnsbabe87 ughhh! Annoying 😂to not accept that despite decades passing and new techniques have proven to be safe , they still won’t just use it. I guess as long as it’s still safe it doesn’t matter. But that is annoying. It makes you wonder what other things have we learned and changed with climbing skills that they may refuse to accept. I climb with someone who only uses an atc . I said well I don’t let people belay me with an atc . Looks like we can hike back down the trail and go home. He then agreed to gri gri quickly 😂😂😂😂. Our climbing gym only allows gri gri so I didn’t even think he would bring an atc to climb outdoors. It’s all we used together in the gym. Then he pops that ultimatum on me and I counter offered. It’s my life and I don’t trust him with an atc outdoors where there’s chance of rock fall and bees. As long as you’re safe and you feel safe…. But man …. 🤦‍♀️

[@mikelkastro3591]

I avoid to use dynema or aramida lops for these kinds of loops because they are extremely static material with zero ability of absorption of energy in case of fall. And is possible to have a factor 1 or 2 fall when you are connected to the belay. Nylon loops are better but Beal manufacturer of climbing equipment have a loop named "Dynaloop" made in dynamic nylon rope 8mm in three length. (60, 90 and 120 cm) This loop asure you a shock force less of 12kn in case of factor 2 chute.

[@albinomattosfilho9394]

the question is: how are you supposed to take a factor 2 fall while rappelling .... never heard of it.....

[@mikelkastro3591]

It is not difficult. Clip the anchor. Now, for any reason put your feet at the level of the anchor. You have now a factor 2 chute. And easiest. Clip the anchor. Now, put your wrist at the level of the anchor . You have a now a factor 1 chute that is extremely hard if you are using a very static sling like dyneema. Avoid problems, use a dynamic loop! @@albinomattosfilho9394

[@tjb8841]

@@albinomattosfilho9394not while rappelling. It would be while setting up the rappel. You clip the anchor, then move upwards until your PAS is tight, then fall. So, super rare for this too happen. But, factor 1, where only have to get up to have your harness level with the anchor, is a pretty common situation.

[@albinomattosfilho9394]

@@tjb8841 agreed..... newbie mistake but can happen......

[@albinomattosfilho9394]

There’s no way to catch a fall with your belay loop girth-hitched unless you tied your rope directly to it which is really wrong......

[@RandomClimbingGuy]

Sorry, I don't understand this comment. Are you saying you can't attach a belay device and belay if you're using a sling girth hitched to your belay loop at the same time?

[@albinomattosfilho9394]

you can but you won´t never take a fall with your belay device girth hitched to your harness. you only girth hitch a sling this way when you are rappeling... or you will be attached to an anchor and this way you will take the load.... not the hitch....@@RandomClimbingGuy

[@paulgaras2606]

Are you saying clipping the belay device into the rope loop that’s tied into your tie in points is wrong? I kinda think that in the situation where your anchor/ harness is so crowded that a sling girth hitched to your belay loop would interfere with belaying, attaching the belay device to the rope loop is the easiest solution.

[@albinomattosfilho9394]

I´m just saying you won´t never belay with an extension, so you won´t never hold a guide or lead fall this way like the video suggests.....