Authority from Rome: Restricting The Traditional Latin Mass (Fr. Pius Pietrzyk, OP)

[@b.r.holmes6365]

It's weird watching the Clerics persecute the most faithful Catholics.

[@FruitofSilence]

Thank you for pursuing this line of questioning, as it addresses many questions I have had and continue to have about TC.

[@TheTradDadShow]

Covid really made me think about this and I ended writing my senior thesis on this

[@orangemanbad]

We traditional Catholics can’t go to novus Ordo because majority of those churchgoers don’t believe in the faith. Why would we give up strong faith for lukewarm Protestant-light?

[@loriw.9653]

Quo Primum.

[@orangemanbad]

Francis ending the standard Catholic Mass is bizarre to me. It’s what converted me from Protestantism and connected my family to God.

[@jimh4072]

I will just go to the SSPX.

[@mpkropf5062]

They are not the Holy Catholic Church and then you are Protestant and not Catholic

[@Kirin2022]

The good father is making a very important distinction between traditional Dominican and Franciscan understanding of authority and obedience vs. the classical (post-Ignatius and irrational) Jesuit view of authority and obedience.

[@LaustibiChriste33]

Any distinctions are moot now. Pastor Aeternus is infallible.

[@Kirin2022]

@@LaustibiChriste33 I presume you mean that somewhat sacastically and for the time being. A reform of the Bergoglian deform will require future theologians, prelates, and lower clergy willing to press this necessary distinction at all levels. The Jesuits have never been more powerful; Divine Providence will to it that this state of affairs will not last.

[@Catsquirrel7180]

@@LaustibiChriste33 Has Bergoglio or even Montini proclaimed infallibly that the TLM has been abrogated? No? Didn’t think so.

[@robertcarr272]

Re: Ar hbishop LEFVRE issue... Would not the Law of Necessity make valid that whovj would otherwise be invalid? Just asking the question.

[@TP-om8of]

We have let the papacy run amok. This is the “spirit of Vatican I”.

[@Kirin2022]

II, not I. Also, the so-called "spirit of Vatican II" often actually contradicts the Second Vatican II in quite a number of significant matters. Traditiones Custodes actually hypocritically violates Vatican II in the name of Vatican II.

[@LaustibiChriste33]

Yup. Read Pastor Aeternus. Rome made its bed at Vatican I.

[@brianbacon5149]

@@Kirin2022 +JMJ I think he means spirit of V1 in the sense of hyperpapalism and abuse of papal authority.

[@Kirin2022]

@@brianbacon5149 I see. Vatican I concluded hastily under threat. Vatican II did include elements meant to counterbalance hyperpapalism without falling into the error of conciliarism.

[@a.hunter3]

WE are responsible for OUR souls. We are NOT under ANY heretics authority. EVER. Those "shepherds" who lead Christ's "sheep" against the traditional time honored teachings of His Church... ...those who state that ALL faiths lead to Jesus... ...those who tout "pride" and cover up the destruction of souls... ...those who continue to ignore God's Laws will reap what they sow. We who hold to tradition, a tradition which is alive & has been taught before the Bible was even written have clarity of mind & a Roman Catholic's discernment that authority isn't given to those who espouse antichrist dogmas. Oh no! As God is our witness, though our remnant is small we shall NOT falter! Not now! Not on this battlefield for souls! To GOD Be The Glory! To Christ and His One True Church we hold true!

[@SolWaid1965]

Arise, O Lord and let thine enemies be scattered, and let them that hate Thee flee from before Thy Face!

[@LaustibiChriste33]

You have no authority to determine what the "time honored" teachings of the Church are. It is the pope and the bishops in communion with him who decides that.

[@a.hunter3]

@@LaustibiChriste33 ...I never said I did.

[@mpkropf5062]

You are responsible for your souls and right now you are not in Full Communion with the Catholic Church which means you are Protestant and your souls are in danger!’ Don’t you fear God?! I am praying you repent and return home to Rome

[@annaru3814]

​@@LaustibiChriste33It's the Magisterium which decides - 2000+ years of teachings - not just one man in the Chair.

[@brianbacon5149]

+JMJ Bergoglio has zero authority to restrict that which belongs to the Lord, the holy Mass of the Ages. He is out of order.

[@LaustibiChriste33]

Wrong. Read Pastor Aeternus. The pope is a monarch. He doesn't answer to anybody or the Church collectively.

[@jamesMartinelli-x2t]

"Dear Holy Father, can you add St. Joseph to the Cannon of the mass"? No. Why not ? "I'm only the pope". Who know s the name of that pope? I forgot.

[@ryanscottlogan8459]

John XXIII

[@austinkent8811]

This was already defined in Trent and Mediator Dei, as well as in any basic theology manual even before Vatican II. Everything other than the validity of the sacrament itself is a sacramental and is thus under the authority of the Church to change. So yes, the Pope absolutely can totally restrict a specific form of the missal, this is settled doctrine.

[@TP-om8of]

No he can’t.

[@austinkent8811]

@ the Council of Trent and Pius XII magisterially teach he can, so you’re wrong. Whether you agree with the decision or not is irrelevant, God has given him the authority and he can exercise it as he sees fit, and frankly the overwhelming majority of the apostolic college agree with him anyway, so the voice of a handful of dissenters hold little to no weight.

[@TP-om8of]

@ God didn’t give him any such authority; but Paul VI and Francis seized it. The council if Trent does not say popes can abrogate the Mass and invent new liturgies, but even if it did, there’s nothing magical about councils.

[@363catman]

​@austinkent8811 how does that jive to your mind with Quo Primum? I'm not arguing, I finally came to the realization that the pope can change or do away with anything he wants and basically anything issued by any previous Pope is nothing more than toilet paper and the current pope is answerable to no one for doing so . that's the reason I left the Catholic Church.

[@JohnFDonovan-by1nt]

@@austinkent8811 The Counci of Trent historically in its praxis absolutely contradicts your premise. Pius V only stated that a priest could not be forced to celebrate anything other than his missal. However as long as a liturgy had the historic roots of more than 200 years these liturgies were to be respected. The pope may certainly regulate certain aspects of an established liturgy. However, nowhere in the history of the Church, certainly not in the East or West has it ever been stated that the Pope can created a NEW liturgy and impose it on the whole church and suppress the previous liturgy in use. Nowhere in the Council's documents on the liturgy is this possibility even discussed. As to the statement that God has given the pope the authority so he can exercise this as he sees fit..is unabashed heretical papalortry not even found in pastor Aeternus, which sets specific limits on what the pope's responsibilities are to the church he leads.

[@stevecalovich3682]

Nobody gets it. God pulled the plug on the Roman part of the Church for ignoring Fatima in 1960. That's the pitfall of having so gracious a Mother as Our Lady who repeatedly came to help us.

[@austinkent8811]

@@stevecalovich3682 this is heresy according to Catholic ecclesiology

[@stevecalovich3682]

@@austinkent8811 It takes a while to digest thin. Is it heresy? It happened so work it out.

[@austinkent8811]

if it’s heresy then we know it’s false and the problem is in your own intellect, to say otherwise is to lack the theological virtue of faith.

[@gorgana5]

I think still, the pope can't change what has been passed through tradition. Don't the priest swear on the bible not to change any tradition not even he was forced to a day before he becomes one?? also st Paul said don't even believe an angel if he comes from heaven and tells you otherwise.

[@francikoen]

I don't think it's a sin for a priest to offer a TLM - without papal approval. The problem is the pope has the power, but not the righteous authority, to remove the Traditional Latin Mass. But Paul VI and Frankenpope both did exactly that! I know BerGOGlio is an anti-pope. And I wonder if Paul VI was an anti-pope, but I don't know as much about him.

[@hyeminkwun9523]

No, Pope Paul VI was a true Pope, Also Popes John Paul I and II, and Pope Benedict XVI. Also you are right. It is not Sin, and whatever the current one does is Null and Void, for he does not have the Keys (Matt 16:19). He wants to destroy the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and that's why he wants to ban TLM. They are also going to force the new mass which will invalidate the consecration of the Holy Eucharist. Whenever we hear changed wordings of the consecration, we MUST leave that place right away to avoid participating in the sacrilege, and look for a parish which uses the correct wordings.

[@francikoen]

@@hyeminkwun9523 Paul VI banned more Traditional Latin Masses than did Frankenpope. I agree with everything you say... except I have doubts about Paul VI. He also approved the pervasively ambiguous and sometimes point-blank incorrect Vatican II documents...which adds to my doubts as to his legitimacy.

[@hyeminkwun9523]

@@francikoen I know many people doubt, because they are deceived by lies of those true culprits who introduced those you mentioned, pointing the Pope as the one who did it.

[@hyeminkwun9523]

@@francikoen By the way, have you noted that my 1st comments are removed (by You Tube) ?

[@jamesredmann4356]

Alright the TLM is a good but I do not think you should call Pope Francis is an antipope and Pope Saint Paul VI as an antipope. May God have mercy on us all.

[@angelo8424]

SSPX here I come.

[@Hawk5151]

How can you say archbishop lefebvre was obviously wrong? Not obvious at all, and in fact contrary to everything you have espoused about papal authority here.

[@harrietl2869]

I have a word for the pope

[@LaustibiChriste33]

The pope absolutely has the authority to restrict and suppress rites and change the discipline and practice of the Church. The Roman Church handed the keys of absolute authority over to a single man at Vatican I. Fantastic when Pius X is on the throne. Not so much when Francis is. Read Pastor Aeternus. Ultramontanism carried the day. There is nothing that can be done now.

[@boris8787]

We don't need the "mass" because the precious BLOOD of Jesus Christ cleanses us from ALL sin which means there is NOTHING that can be added to improve the one time FINISHED redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross. *Hebrews 10:10-14 & Ephesians 2:8-9.*

[@kyrieeleison1243]

You must think God is magic

[@pattican700]

we are present at the original Calvary at every single TRUE Mass, you're obviously not Catholic, and have no understanding of what it actually is. Jesus is not sacrificed over and over again.

[@Microspectrophotometer]

And the Mass is the Sacrifice of Jesus made truly present. It is there that we go precisely TO BE CLEANSED by His Blood!

[@TKOTraddish]

Funny how this really wasn’t an issue for the first 1500 years of Christianity.

[@Kirin2022]

@@TKOTraddish Even the first generation of Protestant leaders knew better than to embrace the unbiblical heresy articulated above by boris8787. In fact, Martin Luther damned Zwingli for his false reading of the relevant Scriptures.

[@billkolb1305]

Quo Primum.

[@LaustibiChriste33]

isn't infallible.

[@Catsquirrel7180]

Why?

[@Catsquirrel7180]

Evidently St. Pope Pius V didn’t know what he was doing, didn’t know his Latin and didn’t know what “ forever” means. (Sarc)