2/2 The Culture Show : Jon Ronson meets Malcolm Gladwell

• The Culture Show 2013
First broadcast: 02 Oct 2013.
Malcolm Gladwell is about to publish a book. He's done it four times before, and whenever it happens huge things occur: Millions of copies get sold, world leaders take note, catchy phrases infiltrate our language and millions of us are moved by his inspiring stories and big powerful ideas.
Jon Ronson goes head to head with The Tipping Point author in his New York home to talk about his latest work. 'David and Goliath: Underdogs, Misfits and the Art of Battling Giants' seeks to shake our faith in what it means to have the upper hand. In it Gladwell argues we get advantage and disadvantage the wrong way round. Being dyslexic, losing a parent in childhood, being bombed, shot at, marginalized... can all be turned to good, according to his latest optimistic tome.
In this candid and revealing confrontation, one thing comes clear... Giants beware: underdogs can surprise you when they make good the advantages that stem from a traumatic start.

[@localfox1000]

Most journalists would have taken gladwell's mistake and tried to tarnish him completely and discarded all his viewpoints. But Ronson gave him a fair chance by showing his succeses too. He was incredibly thorough in his research but also respectful and open to his interviewee's point of view. How many other journalists out there are like this? Not enough, unfortunately.

[@TheRealFinnWilliams]

Completely agree

[@Mrsbeatle1968]

Completely agree he's a top interesting smart interviewer!

[@anonb4632]

localfox1000 I've always felt Ronson is a better writer than a presenter. But he is far more shrewd than most journalists.

[@therabbithat]

I think overall the message is that denying you have power and giving up your power are not the same thing, and if you aren't honest with yourself about the power you have you might be a little incautious and make a mistake that causes deaths. There's an awful awful lot of pressure on journalists to be careful not to hurt anyone, they have an awful lot of power. I think Jon Ronson is acutely aware of that (he said in another interview it basically caused a "mini-nervous-breakdown") and he's kind of exploring it with Gladwell and maybe gently leading him (and us) to that conclusion. He's not about judgement, ever. Also the scary thing is now that all of us have that power, to a certain extent, but we've never even thought about it because we aren't journalists, and he wants us all to think about that. That's what "So you've been publicly shamed" is about. I also love the bit where Gladwell gets defensive and says, "yes, I am a FELLOW walker with goliaths" or something like that, but Jon Ronson talks to everybody. You don't see Gladwell chatting to people on twitter.

[@ScaryMason]

I would expect nothing less of the man who stares at the men who stare at goats LOL

[@custos00]

I agree, I try to get hold of everything on Malcolm Gladwell, and I have never seen someone get under his skin like Jon did - Great!

[@lambspoo]

Two of my favorite non fiction writers just wish it was longer.

[@fredhubbard7210]

Two of my favourite fiction writers. They are both story tellers... and one is a lot nicer.

[@chezceleste]

Wow...privileged to be listening in on this conversation...think I've grown.

[@claudes.whitacre1241]

I have read all of both Ronson's and Gladwell's books. They always seemed to be similar authors; thorough, entertaining, intelligent. I see now the differences in personality. Both profound authors. Ronson is relentless here.

[@sitkahans]

what a great interview and story really enjoyed this!

[@Oba936]

I enjoyed watching this very much. Thank you. =)

[@anthonynenna1697]

I think Gladwell is relatively honest with himself and with Jon in this interview about his past transgressions. Although he didn't explicitly state he was wrong, he readily admits his infatuation with 'broken windows' at the time of writing 'the tipping point'. He doesn't mention that there weren't actually any studies proving the linkage between the 'broken windows' policy and the concurrent decline in crime in New York, not that Ronson asks him about that. He's happy to concede that his beliefs are changing as time passes as well. Lots of writers and academics get so caught up in their own convictions, a change of course seems unthinkable for fear it would undermine their integrity. I'd say he's fairly humble. Though, feel good, pop social science writing isn't my cup of tea.

[@MeeCee5204]

I have a hard time agreeing with you because Malcolm Gladwell did not come up with the Broken Windows Theory. This video clearly says the idea came from mayor Giuliani and police chief Bratton, all Malcolm Gladwell was write a story about it. he's not the one who suggested they try it and it wasn't his research they used to implement the program. So why would he apologize for the unintended consequences of it? It would seem more reasonable for Giuliani and Bratton to apologize.

[@anonb4632]

Do they have the same optician?

[@joelonsdale]

They are Intelligence Specs.

[@pentfold6534]

You know you’ve come across interesting people when you want to buy them a pint and ask them all about themselves! Would love to have a drink with both these men

[@joelonsdale]

The reason you don't buy a homeless person a home is that often the reason people are homeless is that they are unable to perform all the consistent, sensible actions required to KEEP a home, or a job, or a healthy diet. That's often WHY they are homeless - it's not the lack of a home per se, it's the lack of ability to live consistently and responsibly enough to SUPPORT such a complex lifestyle as home ownership requires. The reasons for this are many, varied and complex but are usually related to emotional damage, poor mental health and addiction. Of course, I'm not talking about ALL homeless people - nothing is ever ALL. However, I completely agree that compassionate action is required, it just requires a study or two, a plan and some money UPFRONT which is what they are talking about here - spend the money upfront instead of spending more on "repairs".

[@DrZepper]

Timber Timbre - Trouble Comes Knocking :) 'Black Arrow' another Timber Timbre song is also used in the 1st part of the interview. Guess the editor/music selector had a thing for them

[@KemptonLam]

0:48 Great edit. Admitting mistake may be hard but must be done.

[@jnanakirti4993]

I wonder if there's any further study into what really reduced crime in New York City. If anyone has some links to articles I'd like to see them.

[@sidarthur8706]

sorry i'm not linking to actual research papers because i'm lazy but i recall reading a theory that it may be to do with the introduction of unleaded petrol

[@joelonsdale]

@@sidarthur8706 Wow, that sounds ludicrous at first glance, but it's not ENTIRELY impossible is it!

[@sidarthur8706]

Joe Lonsdale at first glance it sounds mad in theory, how do you keep lead suspended in the air in the first place? but apparently the quantity of atmospheric can be measured so it's there and there's less than there was when we put lead in petrol and since there's been less lead in the air there's also been a global reduction in violent crime

[@seanpadraigobrien1260]

That's mad. But if there's a study on it.

[@munaali6998]

Bible belt in Ontario? Canada was a socialist country in 1980's??? !!!! lol What crap! We had Mulroney a conservative and PE Trudeau a Liberal as Prime Ministers. Gladwell is a grift king!

[@cable5473]

Aggressive policing didn't reduce the crime rate.....but we have absolutely no idea what did.....but it definitely wasn't that.

[@marzero116]

Well the analysis of data by actual researchers does data shows that large cities all over the country ones that didn't practice the same aggressive policing also reduce crime rates similar rates.

[@NxDoyle]

When you think 'Gladwell', do you think 'journalist' or 'author'? I'd bet that a lot of people who have read a Gladwell book or watched a Gladwell presentation think of him as something more akin to an anthropologist. If his credentials _were_ related to that field, we may have greater cause to single him out if, for example, he plants a pretty significant post hoc fallacy in society's mind. Regardless of credentials, we should know better than to take even the most attractive or cogent-sounding ideas at face value.

[@CiceroSpeaketh]

well said!

[@Josceline19]

Does anyone know the name of the song at 8:59?

[@Henpad97]

Josceline Cluff Trouble comes knocking by Timbre Timbre

[@mustardegg2]

How I attempted to destroy Malcom Gladwell by Jon Ronson.

[@sunnymon1436]

11:15 "growing up in a socialist country"... er... when were England or America socialist?

[@chezceleste]

He grew up in Canada

[@sidarthur8706]

jon ronson only has one t shirt

[@joelonsdale]

Or seven identical ones.

[@fleeingnomad]

haha he is squirming

[@noodletropic]

Gladwell is the brightest star in any conversation. I could listen to him all day long. Ronson's vehement jealousy disguised in psychobabble was sick. Naked shameless and sick.

[@joelonsdale]

I don't agree with your analysis, they are such very different characters that the difference is exaggerated on opposition.

[@Prespanda]

I like how the mildest push back on Gladwell is seen as "shameless and sick".