Jon Ronson breaks down why the right are abandoning the culture war

Broadcaster and journalist Jon Ronson came into PoliticsJOE to discuss the culture wars, getting sucked in himself, and why the right are turning away from them.
The second series of Jon's podcast Things Fell Apart is available now on BBC Sounds.
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[@Mackerdaymia]

People don't like admitting that we still live in a class-based society because they prefer the myth that anything is possible with hard work. It allows them to both pat themselves on the back when they might've been lucky or enjoyed priviledge and chide those who are unfortunate or who have been let down by the system with lines akin to: "just work harder" or "just get a better job".

[@ScandalUK]

It's a very good point. There's nothing more British than worshipping posh people.

[@lizcollinson2692]

And "it can't happen to me I work hard"

[@herrschneider5310]

this is so true it hurts.

[@grtcara8386]

Trans rights aka the ability to cheat in sport

[@markcraine4213]

The left seem to forget that many of these people getting richer while we lose ourselves in the Culture War are also on the left. The hypocrisy of the left elite is astounding sometimes. It’s all a game, an illusion and lots of privileged people think they’re not part of the problem. The top 30% at least have too much but push all the attention on the 1%. Also, the ones getting shafted by the Elites (throughput the political spectrum) generally are like Turkeys voting for Christmas. A lot of the people who would benefit from some kind of revolution are the staunchest supporters of their oppressors and the current status quo. I agree with your work harder/get a better job statement. If that were possible for us all who would do the shitty low paid jobs. In my Utopia world the toilet cleaners would be the highest earners if we had to have discrepancies in earnings.

[@efeetham15]

Jon is a national treasure. His curiosity and lack of judgement really marks him out and is so refreshing

[@jonnyc429]

The right are abandoning the culture war? They're the only ones I ever hear talking about it.

[@aliruane]

That was such a fun listen. Thanks Ron, thanks Ed.

[@alisondark8183]

Great interview with Jon, his work is always so interesting, informative and entertaining - no mean feat! 😊

[@faves2064]

Very good interview, really enjoyed hearing Jon talk, good work guiding the conversation by Ed 👏

[@adenwellsmith6908]

The evidence is they are ramping up the culture war. Look at the attacks on people singing gospel music.

[@kaleeyed]

I think the difference in Britain is that all the culture war / conspiracy stuff is not underpinned by evangelical Christianity to the extent it is in the US. The evangelicals are still a fringe in the UK, although they are growing by opening churches in deprived areas. I don't think culture war stuff translated directly from the US to the UK tends to stick or have legs. At the minute, people are very concerned about day to day living, and the Tories culture war as an answer to this comes across as extremely unhelpful and tone deaf.

[@RichWoods23]

The Tories can still inspire enough hateful people to do actual harm, though. Their little crypto-Nazi turnout to "protect" the Cenotaph comes to mind, as do the several attacks on asylum seekers and their housing.

[@Pirate44444]

Yeah it’s imported over rather than developing naturally from the culture

[@Globaldave1970]

Why are cultural wars Tory? Can a woman have a penis?

[@Nothing._-]

Conspiracy Theory was coined by the CIA to put people off investigating the murder by the CIA of John F Kennedy, people who repeat that today have the lowest intellect and zero awareness of how the world works, they would rather attack other people with no power instead of looking up at who’s screwing them

[@jontalbot1]

The other difference is people in the UK aren’t usually paying that much attention to politicians so they are mostly only dimly aware that there are excited debates going on elsewhere. Plus most people are allergic to what traditionally were pub bore types and now ‘cultural commentators’

[@scaredyfish]

I guess the question is, where does the culture war end, and the serious issues begin? I don't give a damn whether someone approves of a casting decision in a Disney movie, but I do care when people are making arguments which are then seized upon by legislators to deny people real human rights.

[@pharmakon7920]

To me the culture war is the sensationalised, media-warped and weaponised version of the real issues. It's created and used by cynical people for cynical reasons.

[@fifthpint4571]

"Culture war" is a gimmick employed specifically to tighten controls over people and gain more leverage over them to direct, and punish, as required ad-hoc. it's a cudgel, basically.

[@BadgerGirl]

it doesn't, the reality is the culture war has been going on since the Renaissance, the battlegrounds change, from reducing papal authority to Jim Crow to gay rights to Muslims and now trans people but it is all the same long war and it always goes the same way, the youth see a social cause to advance, the right react negatively because they hate change, then the right overreacts and moves to the persecution of said social cause, there's a piss fight for 10 years, the old align with the right, the youth with the left than the old age out of political relevance and the left wins then moves onto the next thing, same old cycle, the right-wing fighting culture wars they already lost because you simply can't beat time and youth only delay it. like i'm a 34 yr old and trans, today i'm politics and current football, but I'm 110% sure by the time I'm 90 I'll be sitting there just as perplexed as today's boomers are about me but instead about my great grandzims multisexual poly-dimensional relationship of an AI chatbot or something, my only hope is that im self-aware enough to not give a shit because I know my time is done and it up to the youth to do whatever the fuck makes them happy 🤷‍♀

[@wedaringu667]

This has been the outcome of a century of the evolution of neoliberal propaganda. First they started with academia, then churches, then Hollywood, the media, back to the universities to rewrite economics and finally the government itself, once Reagan was in office. During this time the rhetoric of the working class was being gradually eroded by each successive tier of control. We went from a time that all cultural differences were defined by how the working class would fight undivided for the rights of each special interest because we understood that each endangered group was a weak link that the industrialists could use to create bogus legislation that would weaken the entirety of community well-being and workers' rights, consumer protections, environmental protections, anti-war and anti-surveillance movements and progress towards universal healthcare. They divided and conquered us and over the course of a century few but the real left... especially the labor historians and indigenous activists... remembered the history and the cost of the battles we fought and lost against the ruling class.

[@colincampbell4261]

When the right wing media stop promoting it.

[@NinaGray-eq9on]

I'm trans and know that the stoking of hysterical myths about trans people was definitely in full swing by 2018. The pandemic may have expedited it, though in no way is it a product of those times.

[@eightiesmusic1984]

Solidarity. The right stoops so low to gather what votes it thinks it will win by made up culture wars that then have real world consequences for vulnerable groups.

[@trevfindley5704]

This is of course true, but would you not agree that 2013 onwards was more like a beta phase where the narratives were tested and refined mainly using pre-radicalised American christo-fascists, and that 2020 was when it really began to be rolled out en mass to vulnerable boomer populations via mainstream channels?

[@eightiesmusic1984]

My reply expressing solidarity has been removed.

[@Thelma7361]

@@trevfindley5704nope around 2015/16 the UK had politicans debating bathroom bills at the same time North Carolina was. This didn’t appear out of nowhere it was preluded by a lot of anti -trans news articles in both countries. But arguably the UK was doing it first and it was a political issue adopted by the American right.

[@trevfindley5704]

​​@@Thelma7361 wow. I had no idea it had hit mainstream uk politics that far back, and that we didn't just import it from the US. Crazy.

[@thelostbard]

I love this podcast and their coverage, thanks alot joe

[@ashleighnoel9857]

Loved the first season of the podcast, the one on abortion was so fascinating 👏🏽

[@joepiekl]

Yeah, I couldn't believe that evangelical Christians really didn't care at all about abortion until the 80s when someone managed to frame it as an anti-feminist thing. It just shows how easy it is to make an issue out of nothing and create sides (as we saw with masks in the pandemic, which really should have been a complete non-issue). It also shows how a group can go from having something as part of their core identity for decades and do a complete 180. Conservative Christians 20 years ago would be appalled by someone like Trump, for example, yet they've overwhelmingly backed him.

[@ellenmeilee]

The S2 episode about the media storm about some US schools allegedly having cat litter trays for kids who identify as cats…and then the interview with the teacher who explains what the real purpose is of the buckets in class ….a shocking and sad reflection on how some media sources completely twist reality to whip up national outrage and division.

[@danniblo8904]

And direct anger toward the wrong people

[@watermusic4381]

What was the real purpose?

[@robkunkel8833]

Was it for fire prevention? Or related to heavy windstorm storms for making things secure?

[@hnnsy]

Especially considering its the right wing conservative voters who are directly responsible for those buckets in the classes to begin with by constantly voting in politicians who will staunchly oppose any gun restrictions. They then go on to use said buckets to spread horsesh*t about another issue they take umbrage with. Its as comical as it is infuriating.

[@colinquirke4256]

To use as a bathroom in the case of an active shooter

[@ScandalUK]

Aha - I love Jon Ronson, after reading his books I got the audiobook versions too. I haven't even heard his podcast yet, but I'll tune in now!

[@jillroyson4589]

The podcast is excellent

[@lukebarton5075]

Has has done quite a few different podcast series over the last few years. You should defo check ‘em out.

[@jameswarren2222]

All Jons books are entertaining, enlightening and well worth a read

[@frelonvert6064]

He's awesome, shame he kinda disappointed me when i was lucky enough to talk to him on Social Media. Never meet your heroes.

[@DragonsTooth]

Definitely worth a deep dive into. Worth the time.

[@cobbler40]

If we aren’t distracted by culture wars/wedge issues we could look at the Tories history in power !

[@michaelrch]

And that of New Labour.

[@carltaylor6452]

It's true that most of this nonsense has happened on their watch.

[@michaelrch]

@@carltaylor6452 look back at new labour rhetoric on immigration. It was fairly horrific at times.

[@zoranblackie5921]

@@michaelrch Not a reason to vote Tory, or indirectly voting for them by not voting Labour...

[@michaelrch]

@@zoranblackie5921 you might have a point if there was any chance of the Tories winning. But there isn't a chance in hell of that. So I will vote for a party that actually represents my values, rather than a conservative, pro-austerity pro-genocide disgrace of a Labour Party.

[@diskopartizan0850]

Loved the first season, didnt know the second was out. Great interview, thanks.

[@mrtambourineman6107]

Series 2 is absolutely brilliant! Have listened to several times already

[@becausepuppets]

18:34 “America is a class-based system that pretends it’s an identity based system” is an astute observation. In answer to why people get angry when you point that out… I’d suggest those of higher class (wealth) have a vested interest in the status quo, whilst those of lower class like to believe they have some power. It’s much easier these days (and getting even easier) to change your identity, how you identify. Whereas trying to move from lower class to higher class is statistically extremely difficult. The issue is compounded when we take into account some identities (Eg the black community) are systemically poor BECAUSE of their identities.

[@Squaremuffin]

Lovely to see some new material from Jon

[@raylder6339]

Didn't know Jon Ronson had a podcast but I love his book the Psychopath Test and the film Men Who Stare at Goats. Great guest to have on PolJoe!

[@zoranblackie5921]

He has some great ones - Things Fell Apart and So You've Been Publicly Shamed, but also some others like Last Days of August and the Butterfly Effect which dive into the mysterious world of the porn industry...

[@harry.flashman]

If you like the books definately check out the podcasts.

[@rocket69218]

"People take cocaine and have sex all the time" .... I never realised I had lived such a sheltered life! 😂

[@colincampbell4261]

If you rub cocaine on your knob ....? Try it!

[@robertjsmith]

AI,could make all your fantasies come true,Uber eats,won’t just be delivering pizza

[@euansb7752]

It's true...we're doing that right now

[@Secretgeek2012]

​@@euansb7752 How are you still typing? Taking a breather? 😆

[@BadgerGirl]

if you have been to any pub in the UK in the last 6 years you know cocaine use is at epidemic levels.

[@stubarr70]

Love Jon Ronson, very excited to find out there’s another series of Things Fall Apart

[@famfamfam5782]

I wish we had more media like these 2 guys in the UK. Uk nuanced media is more effortless. USA nuanced stuff can be too intense

[@madeinengland1212]

Tightly controlled. Its a shame that their definition of right is ‘reading the room at my left wing parties”

[@josemengelez6947]

@@madeinengland1212 you're literally called "made in england" you have a hormonal imbalance that causes you to cry with joy at the sight of the union jack. everyone in your life (if there is anyone) finds you repellant and creepy... sorry you had to find out this way.

[@SharmanSomerset]

Top job, Ed, always enjoy listening to Jon speak x

[@crescentsi]

Absolutely! Distraction politics is very convenient for those in power. Assimilating blame and shifting the emphasis from their own incompetence and corruption is a ploy that, they hope will win votes.

[@quillo2747]

Not wanting people to castrate kids is a little bit more than a distraction

[@tobiasdavidson3161]

What a convivial voice! I’m new to Jon Ronson, but enjoyed his relatively dispassionate assessment of the culture wars. He’s right that we all need to be much more self-reliant when it comes to discerning truth. But I would warn against relying on fact checkers!

[@mikeinfected]

so glad more are saying this. Brilliant.

[@jimb9063]

"We want to hurt people and not feel bad about it." Well that's really easy to do now. Without the restraint that comes with seeing nearly all those we communicate with face to face on a regular basis. Maybe they're not even real people.

[@mattliamjack3293]

Thanks ed and jon😊💚🌍💚One world

[@chaipup7045]

really interesting interview, thanks!

[@Lewie_G]

Spot on, thanks

[@jenniferwilson726]

Fantastic, informative , and enjoyable. Thank you.

[@jessery475]

Some much love for jon ronson

[@acrodave9287]

I've spoken to some sex workers and I can assure you that the last thing they feel when they're working is any kind of 'excitement', delirious or otherwise. I've been a fan of Jon's work since 'Them - Adventures with Extremists' which I read after seeing the documentary series of the same title, and it was that series that first alerted me to the existence of Alex Jones. The rest is, unfortunately, history. Keep up the good work, Jon. As for the whole 'Woke' thing, I'm heartily sick of hearing about it in ANY context. Sigh.

[@markcrocker8645]

If a few weeks of lockdown did this to human beings, try to imagine what a lifetime of confinement does to animals with high levels of inate intelligence, (not to mention people incarcerated in prisons!). Just how "civilised" are we after all?

[@paulhalfpenny1139]

Great point about new wave of journalists being activist based rather than evidence based. Like he says, "magical thinking" - or wishfulness, or a certain naive moral sentimentality - is the bane of modern progressivism.

[@davidnolan8975]

Ronson never disappoints

[@terry9819]

15 years ago immigration was seen as a culture war issue and was ignored by politicians. Thankfully nothing bad came from that approach!

[@simon0044]

15 years ago immigration was at an acceptable level and enhanced the country somewhat. Then the conservatives came into power….

[@quillo2747]

@@simon0044 10 million immigrants since 1995. Immigration was at an acceptable level before then, Blari opened the Borders, the tories simply continues Blairs globalist policies and increased the flow to the tune of 700k net in a single year, and people wonder why no one can get an nhs apointment or afford a house while demand is spiking through the roof to the tune of 700k people a year

[@jontalbot1]

The culture war doesn’t really play as well in the UK as it does the US. I also wonder if Sunak’s gaffe in parliament when he tried to weaponise transgender issues against Labour was some kind of watershed.

[@hrtdinasaurette3020]

Have really enjoyed many of Mr. Ronson’s books over the years. Though I sometimes disagree with opinions aired on this channel, I do like to hear many n varied opinions on topics be they Left, Right, Centre or a mixture. I’d learn very little from only hearing my own opinions parroted back to me - preaching to the choir. My favourite thing being intelligent debates. Us humans are more than capable of being wrong. “Don’t want to be wrong any longer than my ignorance of a subject allows it”. Thanks P.J. 😊❤

[@grallochervideos]

31:20 Were you quoting Graham Linehan?😂”…just ‘cos you come up with a word, doesn’t mean I’m forced to use it…”. Glad to see Jonno is gender sensible deep down, even if he finds it hard to admit. Must be all that compassion

[@dirtylittleowl]

Probs projecting your deranged bigotry m8

[@MetalSamantha]

Are you a “Sex realist”?

[@Democracy_Manifest]

Linehan has been proven correct. The bbc luvvies will have to live with their lies.

[@presterjohn71]

As an essential worker I never personally had that time away from work or other people. I resented it at the time but now wonder if I wasn't actually lucky.

[@MFHand]

After the experience of weeks at home with new babies the lockdown itself wasn't a big deal for me at all. The threat of Covid was scary in itself, but I'd already experienced an adjustment to how to cope when stuck at home with no social life and no job 😂

[@robertstraw9881]

I always enjoy Jon’s work. He sounds like a lovely guy too.

[@howtoappearincompletely9739]

Fantastic interview. Thanks.

[@djkush]

He’s so way off on some of this… there is no way the legacy media is coming back to replace Twitter. Nice thought for someone that thrives in that world but Pandora’s Box has been opened.

[@artomatt]

Did this video actually break down "why the right are abandoning the culture war"? I don't think they are, at least in the US, and after watching this, I don't remember hearing any evidence to the contrary.

[@BigHenFor]

The Culture War thing in its present iteration was designed by American plutocrats who think because they're rich, they actually know how to govern people who aren't them. And have the money to spend trying to convince others. Considering the inept entitled, and vacuous people they are, they don't. It just takes a long time for ordinary people to figure that out.

[@pharmakon7920]

Welcome to the internet in 2024, nothing is what it says on the tin. The tin says whatever it thinks might make you open it, and they write that long after whatever the actual contents of it were created by someone totally different. It's nonsensical but seems as though it's what the algorithm forces them to do.

[@jannneumann5766]

It's wishful thinking. The left only started calling it the culture war after they took a few losses.

[@NigelJackson]

It's just wishful thinking and denialism...the culture wars are actually raging and seem to be ramping up on all fronts.

[@nickbarber2080]

"Just because you invent a word,doesn't mean we have to use it" If only this precept were more widely accepted.

[@sunnysjwinter]

LOVE Jon Ronson. His investigations & books are such a fascinating insight in social behaviour & psychology. Big fan! Thanks Joe for organising this & for great questioning Ed 👏🏻

[@mandead]

The interviewer looks like a young, Scottish Eddie Marsan and I cannot now unsee this.

[@michaeljones1802]

"Gary's economics" has a great way of explaining Britain's economic issues

[@peterweston1356]

I find myself drawn this kind of conversation, when I hear Ronson speak I realise that I am not a far right bigot. Inasmuch that, for me he represents a voice of compassion, nuance and thoughtfulness. Pretty much everything he says makes some sense to me. I suspect I would enjoy sitting for a cup of tea with him.

[@AH-ml4vi]

"Culture wars are the opiate of the masses" I'll borrow that one if culture wars do make a comeback attempt.

[@georgeh5075]

A groundhog being a bean is the most accurate description

[@chrisw125]

very good interview thanks

[@mikefoster6018]

I remember Linehan sending his followers after me simply because I corrected him. I loved Linehan's work and had zero history with him, apart from one brief chat online about a boardgame we both liked. The second time I messaged him was a comment on one of his (somewhat excessive) anti-gun tweets. I just said I thought his stats looked quite far out on the issue. He blocked me, forwarded my message to his 485,000 followers with the message BLOCKED FOR STUPIDITY on it and, as a result, a few of his fans messaged me with things like "it's YOU who should be shot". It was a strange feeling. The creator of Father Ted was a bit of a hero to me. Then he just went for me. So yes, my brief experience of him seems entirely consistent with what Ronson says.

[@BeanFace-oj2en]

Its easy to ignore something if it does not have any worth to it, its amazing how much you can let go👍

[@belindablunderbus1365]

Jon Ronson! Great investigative journalist. (If you haven't heard of him, look out for The Psychopath Test,)

[@user-zi1kr4kd1v]

Lost at Sea and Men that stare at goats

[@julianshepherd2038]

I read the p test and emailed him and he replied straight away. I was part pleased and part worried why he was wasting his time on a random

[@fridajaspers6066]

I was still on Twitter at the time and tweeted Jon Ronson after listening to Louis Theroux' BBC convo with him during lockdown in 2020 with an inebriated message saying 'Found you through Louis. Really goodrtare5tfhjd'. He replied saying thanks. I have since read 'So You've Been Publicly Shamed' (2015) and read/watched/ listened to many other works of his, but 'So You...' has stayed with me. Because of what's happening now.

[@carltaylor6452]

For someone who wrote the brilliant 'So You've Been Shamed', Ronson has been very quiet on cancel culture and completely silent when it comes to gender identity ideology. Is that because he's a bad journalist or perhaps a frightened one?

[@markcraine4213]

All of his books are great

[@victorblackley8372]

Graham Lineham seems such an incongruous presence in the current trans debate. It's like Larry Grayson going after the fox hunting lobby. There doesn't seem to be any connection.

[@AlmostYearly]

Haha. "On the right it's just straight up lying, on the left it's... ahem mnumunum-anyway it's all a distraction."

[@Lazerus101]

Anyone else caught by the irony of talking about class war then extolling the virtues of (billionaire backed) old media? Not saying new media is better, but it's not one of the other. We should be looking for something better than either.

[@nickrails]

Alot of 'new media' is also backed by billionaires - think The Daily Wire, Rumble, Twitter etc

[@rainbowevil]

Novara Media isn’t, nice to be able to watch a decent and crowdfunded news channel.

[@quillo2747]

@@rainbowevil Communists are rarely decent.

[@rainbowevil]

@@quillo2747 what a terrible “argument”. At worst, you could imagine that all of the hosts of Novara Media are misdirected (if their ideas and solutions to today’s problems wouldn’t work) but very well-meaning. I happen to think they aren’t misdirected at all and are looking at issues and potential solutions through an important lens, but it’s absolutely baseless to call them not decent people.

[@T.O.A.D.U.K]

If you want to be depressed just read the DM comments on news stories. Many people on there have gone down the rabbit hole.

[@Pinkybum]

Also he admits to being wrong about Trump in 2016 but then doubles down like he knows anything about Republicans in 2024.

[@user-ck3uu8rj3x]

I really enjoyed the 'lock down' . I clean and prep emergency vehicles for a living . I enjoyed the car journey to work as i was almost the only vehicle on the road. I never saw any roadkill, the skies were clear, quiet and free of aeroplane trails and the world was peaceful and beautiful. I came out of the lockdown in a better mental state than I entered it. Didn't last long once normal fukwittery returned.

[@minorthreatrecordings1041]

Great interview ta

[@mookie2637]

One point about the Miami killings is that, in the absence of any obvious cause of death, oxygen deprivation through strangulation, choking, suffocation is a really, really obvious thing that any half-decent coroner would be looking for. This series of TFA is very good - more small scale than the first (as Jon acknowledges), but that somehow makes the foresic study of what people thought they were doing that much more human somehow.

[@paulfitzgerald4625]

This guy’s content sounds interesting where can I find it? Does he only do BBC podcasts?

[@benwalter6984]

His books are excellent, there’s even some films adapted from his work.

[@paulannable3734]

This is the man who filmed rich and powerful Americans burning a giant stone owl at Bohemian Grove. You should search out his stuff.

[@everydayjumblist]

A basic theory RE the lockdown induced culture war explosion: Everyday as we go about our lives events happen that we need (or choose) to think about. These vary hugely, ie we might need to think about taking our kid to a birthday party later or we might choose to think about a news event from the other side of the world. So as a society our attention is constantly spread across multiple different events. We only have capacity for so much at once, and if we have too much to think about some stuff will naturally get deprioritised. After weeks of lockdown the well of events everywhere was running dry, and so as a collective we had lots of attention to spare. Therefore our attention was much more sharply focused on anything that did happen and the topics of discussion around such things. That coupled with well documented internet induced polarisation and partisan news coverage led to arguments that were far more noisy and less nuanced than they might have been otherwise. As normal life has returned people have more things to think about and so they deprioritise culture war issues that don’t directly affect them, hence a lot of the heat is taken out of it. So it’s not necessarily the case that people are bored of culture war topics, it’s more that people aren’t bored enough to bang on about them all day long.

[@BigHenFor]

People are getting bored and tired of the Attention Economy anyway. It's like walking in a park full of dog poo, with all the boys, lies, and manipulation. After getting poop on your shoes, you find a cleaner route to walk.

[@bipolarminddroppings]

I got off most of the social media sites in 2018, it was ruining my already fragile mental health. I only use FB for work stuff, I don't even go on it more than once a month and the only platform I'm active on is KZbin which I consider a media content platform, not a social media site like some people do.

[@skippertheeyechild6621]

It's a social media platform by definition. It's definitely less in your face about it though.

[@sosimple3585]

Very wise.

[@samuelbroad11]

excellent digital hygiene, smartphones especially are little addictive dopamine triggers.

[@tomwilko7841]

Same... Almost, I'm on KZbin obviously but have never had an account on anything else, I've always enjoyed my own privacy whilst having very little interest in other people...lol... It's been strange watching literally everyone become distracted by it

[@allan4922]

On the subject of pseudo science in an interview with Scottish defence Kings Counsel, Donald Findlay is very outspoken about this stuff getting used in court cases. Its rise in the early 80s. Bite analysis etc and even with respect to DNA. Interesting stuff, if you find yourself in the 'big court'!

[@presstodelete1165]

Jaw dropped wider than my Dentist visit earlier this morning.

[@timbpmusic]

Very interesting. Particularly interested in the confirmation biases.

[@drewcampbell8555]

Well... you would be!!!

[@sasserine]

Are they abandoning it? They seem to be doubling down.

[@nickrails]

In the States DeSantis went heavy on culture war issues and got obliterated in the Primaries, Trump doesn't really push any 'anti-woke' talking points, and polling amongst GOP voters show that culture war issues rank fairly low. In the UK, many seniors Tories have stated that culture wars will be their only hope to win the next election, and some right papers have pushed such angles. But again, polling shows British voters have little interest in these issues given the absolute crap-show the Tory government has become.

[@redmed10]

​@@nickrailsi'm wary of polls.

[@josemengelez6947]

@@nickrails that just indicates that they're unwilling to *talk* about these cultural contentions, likely due to the fact that they are most likely only informed to a very basic level and thus vulnerable to "gotchas". cognitive dissonance has been proven to light up the pain receptors and even the stupidest, most docile creatures shrink away from pain stimulus.

[@maryburke5423]

Yeah, I’m not in Britain, but overall I don’t see any backing away from culture wars. Getting worse imo.

[@freakybeaky1]

I witnessed a lad who had an episode in a house attacked family members ran out topless and in, found babbling round the corner lying on the ground for a bit and he was burning like he was on fire! A few days later people who didn’t know what happened were talking about him taking cocaine for his birthday earlier that night.

[@VaucluseVanguard]

I am a qualified mental health professional. A great deal of what goes on in my area is pseudoscience with no strong evidential support. For yeas we used ECT ("electric shock therapy), on the basis of quite erroneous observation. Now we use it rarely and with great caution. However, those who initially raised concern about its use did so very often on emotion rather than on the basis of hard evidence, indeed many of their observations have proven just as wrong as the observations that once led to its widespread use. We now know that pre-frontal leukotomy (AKA lobotomy) was a scientific fraud (its creator had his Nobel Prize rescinded many years after his death as he obviously lied about results), and it is widely accepted that Freudian Psychoanalysis is largely - to use the very precise British scientific term - mainly bollocks. I have very little doubt that in another generations time, much of the "science" around sexuality, sexual identity and gender, will be seen for what most of it is "pseudo-science" - basically, the academic equivalent of a load of lads down the pub talking bollocks after a few pints, or the opinion of the cab driver on the way to the airport. Unfortunately, in the past 50 years much of what is or is not accepted in mental health 'science' originates in the politics of the people concerned, just as eugenics drove the Nazis (who wouldn't want perfect humans) or the incarceration of political dissidents in the USSR was seen as wholly legitimate by communists (only a delusional cannot see socialism will create the perfect society). I have little doubt the few Politics Joe supporters who read this will think they know my politics....... and I'm guessing they will be quite wrong.

[@itcouldbelupus2842]

Are you an anti trans progressive?

[@bibsp3556]

Do you feel the same about all medical procedures? Or are most things fine?

[@notsoaveragejoe7275]

I assume you are a highly educated scientist who is able to bring lots of your own research and written lots of papers refuting the plethora of studies done on the subjects of sexuality and gender to prove your "pseudoscience" theory. Comparing the study of sexuality to lobotomy and EST is just stupid. If you're as intelligent as you make yourself sound, you should realise that

[@bibsp3556]

@@notsoaveragejoe7275 ah yes but have you considered just making it all up? Or maybe just being oblivious to how much you've been influenced by media? They're apparently options too

[@user-dr7by9dx8l]

Psychiatry is nonsense. Psychiatric diagnosis is scientificly worthless.

[@zarathustracave5732]

I have two things in common with this guy. Same glasses and same high school.

[@thumper8684]

What distinction does Jon draw between magical thinking and thinking he simply disagrees with?

[@camhamster3891]

He's had a long career in the observational arts. And though he's been set upon by the left-handed culture warriors in the past, he hasn't crossed over to the dark side, like so many.

[@user-zo2rj2zi9g]

@@camhamster3891Observational Arts? Sounds like a pseudo science 😂

[@euansb7752]

Listening to Jon here, I would think the distinction would be drawn through looking at the evidence base of the thoughts expressed.

[@thumper8684]

@@euansb7752 Listening back, he was specifically talking about the latest generation of (left wing) journalists. He says they have been inclined to rely on ideology in place of evidence. The decline in investigative journalism has been an issue for some years now, due to the loss of revenue for mainstream news outlets. Smaller publishers have an even harder time funding that kind of research. There have still been some pretty important scoops coming from this generation of journalists, such Status Coup news' coverage of the Flint water crisis. We all have biases. It seems to me that Jon Ronson likes to think the best of anyone he interviews or knows personally. That has been a big advantage to him when it comes to gaining access to people. I will always have that in mind when I see his work.

[@JayGriffinblaze]

@@thumper8684 Ronson does this too by ignoring that the REASON many of those journalists he calls left wing develop their ideology is BECAUSE of the evidence of their experience - which he does not have or acknowledge.

[@mandead]

"Just because you come up with a word doesn't mean I'm forced to use it." Careful, Jon. I think that's Graham's point.

[@tabbymoonshine5986]

I don't think.....man or woman are new words now are they?

[@farzanamughal5933]

​@@tabbymoonshine5986The word cis is a bit annoying.

[@tabbymoonshine5986]

Not that new either. Why does it annoy you?

[@5hif7yx86]

i was thinking the same thing but with Jordan Peterson lol

[@faelirra]

@@farzanamughal5933 not new either. First use of cis for humans predates WW1. For other terms, whenever latin first came into existence.

[@user-zi1kr4kd1v]

Is this an old interview I can't find anything on BBC sounds

[@ConstanzeWeber]

No, it's current. There's a Radio 4 programme on Tuesday mornings at 9am - I listened to the "excited delirium" one yesterday - fascinating stuff.

[@user-zi1kr4kd1v]

@@ConstanzeWeber thank you . I found it. I'd put inputted the wrong title into my BBC sounds app. Thanks for your help. I started to listen to that episode and you can't make this stuff up tasers , cocaine and excited delirium.

[@Nothing._-]

Had to switch off when Jon said he thinks the guardian are trustworthy and that he had to re learn about truth and promoted snopes 😂

[@Globaldave1970]

Yeah, so smug and self centred.

[@williambarton5681]

I think his point was that sites like The Guardian and the BBC have editorial standards that prevent some proportion of outright falsehoods from getting through, whereas on social media anyone can say what they want with no repercussions.

[@wakeyskate]

What makes you think the Guardian is untrustworthy?

[@Nothing._-]

@@williambarton5681 the legacy media you talk about are all complicit in war crimes committed across the Middle East that have killed millions, during covid they promoted lockdowns that could never work, masks that couldn’t stop a fart never mind a virus of under 5 microns and aerosolised then not safe and not effect gene therapy’s masquerading as vaccines, the problem is people like you are completely asleep at the wheel or dumb or both

[@Nothing._-]

@@wakeyskate the fact that they lie about everything every day, they haven’t been a proper paper since they got rid of Snowden’s leaks and turned against their best supplier of information and journalism Julian Assange, the fact you ask shows you lack any sort of intellect.

[@somethingcleverhere]

I'm a little disappointed to hear him say he doesn't know why people are disappointed to hear America described as a class-based society, and why while true in many ways, it's reacted to so reactionarily. Because it's partily true, but also incomplete. There are a lot parts of lives that are not just class based, and many have over the years chosen to ignore that directly to the face of marginalized communities. It's mixed in with the civility trap of discourse, or rising tides of economics--as if reforming class will make other magically make bias and racism erode by itself. The police police the poor differently than the rich, but they also police nonwhites differently often. It's a lecture that many have heard before, and it's a lecture often delivered because people don't listen to who's being lectured.

[@therealjetlag]

Because they’re not all idiots and are finally realising that they’re being deceived.

[@redballoonluke]

Strange calling Louis and Jon particularly compassionate towards the people they interview. Glad Jon pointed out it’s curiosity not compassion.

[@sosimple3585]

I see Louis as fairly calculating and ruthless. A few times I've seen him gain people's trust and then blindside them with something unexpected.

[@redballoonluke]

​@@sosimple3585 Yeah - to me, if either of them show signs of any compassion it would be Jon, but not necessarily in his work but more just the way he presents himself.

[@IJBLondon]

I think some of Louis' recent work has been a bit different: he's been engaging with groups who he clearly sympathises with (and encourages us to) like those suggering mental illness or trauma, rather than talking to Nazis etc.

[@redballoonluke]

@@IJBLondonah yeah fair - I don’t think Louis is devoid of compassion - my point was just that the interviewer based his question around a “remarkable compassion” that Jon and Louis have

[@Nothing._-]

@@sosimple3585 apart from Jimmy Saville who he became friends with despite knowing he was a paedophile via his mum who worked at the BBC

[@helendancelot]

What happened with Lene Dunham? Google says she's doing fine

[@robkirchhof133]

"excited delirium" is so upsetting. How could people believe that 32 black women each died separately during sex, and in each case the partner just scuttled away and didn't say anything to anyone? (that's a rhetorical question, and the answer is racism.)

[@Samuel-hd3cp]

Racism, misogyny and class hatred. The trifecta!

[@ricardobimblesticks1489]

Is it because no culture war has ever been won by the side entrenched in the status quo?

[@liam3553]

He's right in that's it is all about politicians distracting then looting - read The Emperor's New Clothes - it explains all this in simplified form for all to understand.

[@LeeStoneman]

Pick a side, Ronson. Personally I'm in favour of women's rights and the right not to have to "believe" things that other people say. You should have aome serious conversations with the likes of Helen Joyce and Kathleen Stock. Then have an honest debate with Graham.

[@samgirls]

my thoughts exactly!

[@T.E.S.S.]

There's a better version of this conversation on a recent Knowledge Fight episode. Also, the title of this only applies to about 2 minutes near the end. the rest of the discussion has nothing to do with it. sort yourselves out.

[@freakybeaky1]

‘Tases’ just looked it up and it’s not called Taser because it ‘Tases’. It’s ’Tasered.’

[@Guide504]

Yep and the primary funders of the research is Taser.

[@johnmatthews1095]

How am i supposed to understand this as someone who worked normally through "lock down" ? Oh you poor darlings how hard it must have been

[@GemmaHentsch]

2 hours north of NYC is most definitely central NY, not upstate…

[@cbashe]

Regarding Jon's last comment, does he think that people will also start abandoning podcasts and youtube because they aren't legacy media, or what about the proposition that youtube is now also a legacy media? KZbin certainly leaves a better legacy memory imprint than most other papers and platforms.

[@T.E.S.S.]

gibberish

[@Harrier_DuBois]

Jon Ronson is always interesting to listen to.

[@jimdavis8391]

Interesting but wrong.

[@NotThatOneThisOne]

Venti isn't a made up word. It's because the cup holds 20 fluid ounces, and Starbucks had already come up with a large cup. They also have a 30 fluid ounces Trenta cup.

[@iamNATFAN]

glad to see a supporting role from the covid inquiry wall!

[@michaelking5961]

I’ve got to 16:44 and still title is unaddressed

[@theemissary1313]

Audio quality is sub-potato. I can barely make out what is being said. Which is a shame, I'd really like to know.

[@NevilleThropes]

Jon Ronson used to be a fearless, probing journalist but now he's content with dismissing gender-identity ideology as just another 'culture war'. The phrase is lazy and is often used as the new version of 'storm in a teacup'. I've noticed that Ian Hislop regularly uses it to trivialize serious issues he'd rather not get himself and Private Eye involved in. In series #1 of Things Fell Apart, Ronson made a programme about transwomen being excluded from the women-only festival Mitchfest but he conveniently omitted the violent triple murder of Michfest regulars Charlotte Reed, Patricia Wright and their son, Benny Diambu-Wright, all at the hands of trans-identifying male Dana Rivers. In both a BBC interview and a podcast conversation, Ronson explained that he 'didn't want to become the story' by including it. This lack of courage has really done for Ronson's credibility as a serious documentarian of human behaviour and of facts.

[@jbg48]

SIck of the way Onana never gets the criticism he deserves. His record is shocking, he's been a disaster. The Black Taibi...