TaylorMade RSi2 Mizuno JPX850 Forged Irons

[@Tr33fiddy]

Mark, I commented on boron in golf clubs when you first looked at the 850s: Boron is a relatively rare metallic chemical element (symbol B) which sits between Carbon and Beryllium in the periodic table. As you probably know, steel is made from combining Carbon (C) with Iron (Fe) which enhances the strength, hardness and weight of the resulting metal. As you differ the ratio of C to Fe, so the resultant steel has differing properties (for example, more C generally means the steel is harder but less easy to shape). Other elements can be added to steel to change other properties; Nickel (Ni) and Manganese (Mn) increase tensile strength (e.g. drawing the steel into long rods), Vanadium increases hardness while decreasing metal fatigue (good for things like airplanes!) and the addition of Boron also has an effect. During the end of the process of making a steel object, it is typically heated up and then quenched in liquid. This changes the steel from one microscopic structure to another - the second one being stronger. However, this cooling process has to be quick and it is not always even. The thicker an object is, the slower the inside of it will cool and hence the greater the variance in hardness of the finished object. This is where Boron comes in! If you add very small amounts of it to steel, it increases a property called "hardenability". This is a measurement of how easier it is to harden a steel object uniformly throughout its structure. So the Mizuno irons should have a more uniform hardness throughout their structure. How this translates to the club in your hand, I don't know. I'm crap at golf.

[@Tr33fiddy]

On a related point, the hull of the Titanic did not contain boron.

[@HughRogers609]

***** Which kind of makes it pointless adding into a forged club IMO. People buy forged for the feel off the face. Make it harder and so why bother. I hit them up last weekend and they felt much the same as the non forged clubs. Nice looking clubs but i couldn't get much joy from them

[@TheUofAfan]

Boron is simply added to steal for increased hardenability and strength. I'm sure distance will increase but I believe you will lose some on feel, depending on how much is added. Adding boron does make forging more difficult so I am curious to know just how much boron they are adding as an alloying element to their steel. Also I wouldn't be surprised if they drop boron in a few years, or just keep it in one set or so. Vanadium is added to steel for a lot more than just strength. It increase the wear and impact resistance of certain steels and it also limits grain size which is good for many reasons.

[@bfgolf]

Just got the jpx 850 forged and have now played about 10 rounds with them. I absolutely love these irons. I got the kbs ctl shafts. Flight is mid high but never balloons like the xps did on the range. They feel very soft and are very forgiving without having the negatives of a true game improvement club like thick top line, a lot of offset, and cheap trendy looks. They have none of these. Many of the modern game improvement irons are like a bad pop song... Nobody will remember them in six months..

[@sgreenfly]

I went to strengthen the lofts on my mp64's yesterday to see if it would gain some distance and give me a more penetrating flight , pro didn't think it would make any difference as the lofts were the same as pretty much everything else there was available, after hitting loads of balls with the 6 iron I was pretty happy that the numbers showing were about right (155 carry 172 total) then started hitting the jpx 825 and 850 , loved the 850 , clubhead and ball speed up considerably but distance only marginally , then got the RSI 2 out with the KBS tour shaft that's in as standard and well quite simply wow !! 6 balls between 185 and 188 carry totalling 203 plus !! So for me u can say wot u want about the similarities between a 5 and a 6 iron in different clubs but when ur talking 30 odd yards between them then I agree with Liam , hit 5.6,7 in both sets and let's see the difference , incidentally i ended up trading the 64's for the RSI's as it was a complete no brainer , great club as is the 850 but the numbers and the grouping of the TM's were sensational for me personally

[@jjpac2011]

Thanks for enlightening me Mark. Due to their advertising I thought Taylormade had done something far beyond any other company with regards to mishits. Was seriously considering replacing my tired G10's with the RSI 1's. I will definitely give the others a good look now. (really like the JPX 850's, unforged).

[@jjpac2011]

***** Thanks Smoker.

[@jjcc7709]

I have g10's too and was also looking at snagging the rsi1's still thinking about though haven't given up on them yet :)

[@jjpac2011]

jj cc Callaway bertha's, Nike, Cobra, etc., so many choices. At nearly a grand new, the required process of finding the right irons sounds daunting and tiresome. Being that you play the G10's, I would love to hear how you like the RSI's. I have to fly off island to Maui or Oahu to try them out at Worldwide Golf shops (Roger Dunn) so not happening until well after the RSI's release.

[@keeku4]

I switched out my Callaway Apex after just winning a tournament for the RSI 1 and it was the worst golf decision I ever made. TMs have no feel and true feedback. I tried the tour preferred CB in the same range and also awefful. Now 5 years later I'm gonna tryout these 850 forged.

[@dougbooth]

Adding boron to steel usually hardens it a little, Mizuno are just tweaking the physical properties of the steel. It also promotes certain changes to the grain structure of the alloy which might be the real reason Miz are using it - they like that sort of thing - grain flow forging etc etc

[@Robin0830]

mizuno 850forged 5i - 25degrees - length: 37.75″ Swing weight:D2-D3 TM: RSi2 6i - 27degrees - length: 37:25'' Swing Weight: D2 The numbers you're getting are very much the same i'd say. Just commenting for some people who claim this and that degrees jadda jadda jadda...

[@Robin0830]

taylormadegolf.eu/RSi-2-Irons/DW-WZ218.html#start=2 golf.mizunoeurope.com/golf-clubs/jpx850/jpx850-forged/

[@TheDocPres]

Hello Mark, regarding the issue of comparing different irons in your head to head comparisons, and an individual's aggressive comments that you need to stop this on YOUR CHANNEL ... Although I appreciated your efforts to explain this, you did not need to, as there is a quite easy way for this individual to stop seeing this abominable practice of comparing different irons ... They can stop watching at any time. How absurd to believe they can tell you how to run your business. Sure, make some recommendations, but to make this type of demand with the expectation that you should heed their demand is ridiculous. Keep up the great work, you make this tough game a lot of fun for so many, and it is appreciated.

[@izzyxoxo7287]

Tried these when a mizuno rep came to our range. Far to hard to hit everytime. Then tried the normal 850's. Straight as an arrow and gained 20 yds!!

[@xnimmerx]

20 yards? That's nothing to do with the club mate :-)

[@izzyxoxo7287]

Not with these 'guns' mate. Deffo the club!

[@cookk9472]

Seems like we need do try and out coach you to get a response mark. Come on mate show some love to those who are supporting you. #parfieldarmy

[@CSqrdX]

Hey, Mark. Thanks for all your videos and hard work. Quick question: I'm trying to build an indoor swing studio. What brand/kind of cameras do you have and what's your overall setup? Thanks for your help.

[@jonathanchang258]

Mark, thx for the review. I have a suggestion. Since you are a pro golfer, naturally you hit the sweet spot more often than most of us. And these clubs all perform the same when you middle them. What I want to know is if you purposefully hit them on the toes or anywhere outside of sweet spot, would they still perform the same?

[@JayeHK]

Rick Shiels has compared the RSI 2 with its TM predecessor the SLDR irons, and it looks like the face slots are helping prevent distance loss on mis-hits: watch?v=SHco6gzSelU&list=UUFHZHhZaH7Rc_FOMIzUziJA

[@MisterBlueSky]

Mark Crossfield I get the point about lofts. In this case, the 850 forged 6i would actually have been a closer match to the RSi 2 6i. Only 1 degree difference in those 2 with shaft lengths being identical. RSi 2 6i: 27°, 37.25" 850 Forged 6i: 28°, 37.25" I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference since your personal opinion on these clubs is what people value the most.

[@speterj]

Is it possible that the slots on the face don't do much physically but maybe mentally where you feel like you can make a more solid swing at the ball without worries about a mis-hit.

[@stephenkim9720]

Hey Mark! It would be great if you could do an iron comparison between an older club from 5-6 years ago to the irons coming out now. I'm currently gaming Taylormade r9 tp irons, and I'm wondering if there's a significant difference between these clubs and maybe the rsi2 irons.

[@TheGolfdaily]

Very good video! As a person with some mechanical engineering background, I have to say This slotted TM iron does not convince me at all. Theoretically, if these slots really does work as trampoline, then the miss hits can not have the same distance as the centered hits as the centered hits will always send the balls further than the one closer to the edge.

[@Onemoreround55]

Anyone else realize that he used the same numbers from the jpx 850 vs jpx 850 forged video for the 850 forged numbers for this video. Why wouldn't you just hit the club again and use the new numbers to see if you got different numbers this time. People do strike the ball a little differently from day to day. I will say I really do like your videos Mark as I have been watching them for years but sometimes I will say you do think you know it all. What I mean by that is although I do think club companies marketing is a bunch of hot air just to sell the clubs but I'm sure the technology like "face slots" actually does do something to help even if it is minimal. All I'm saying is you don't have to come off like you know more then the R&D departments that spend millions on designing these clubs. Plus I think we all know your not a huge Taylormade fan lol. All in all I do like your videos and appreciate that you do them, just something to think about. Take care.

[@BOATRIGHTGOLF]

Everyone's missing the point although he did this kinda goofy it made sense! Basically he is saying they perform identical which they do and I can tell you from experience head design influences ball flight. They both have about the same head design regardless of 2 degrees and the 2 mpg extra in club head speed from length.

[@MarkCrossfield]

Goofy?

[@DanTuber]

what happens when you play in the wet and in muddy ground. Will those slots fill up and need constantly groove like cleaning? And same with bunker shits... will sand be hard to get out?

[@Jonsse]

I feel like saying this is getting redundantly repetitive after two years of TaylorMade slotfest, but they slots aren't holes, They're filled in with a plastic/rubber. No dirt will get in them.

[@anthonywest1752]

...remember kids, only you going to the toilet before your round can prevent bunker shits...

[@TomCooke1512]

I think most people are missing the point of Mizuno including Boron in the forging process. As people have said it strengthens the steel, and the reason to strengthen the steel is to enable them to make a thinner face in a forged club. Nothing more than that.

[@mizunogolf1906]

Tom - yes that's more or less it. The additional strength enables us to do more with the shape of the clubhead - thinning both the face and point it joins the soleplate. Essentially a springier face rather than a harder one. Use of BORON is about giving a forged iron additional material strength for design and manufacturing purposes.......not hardness off the face.

[@TomCooke1512]

Giz a job... ;)

[@thomasbarker3588]

Here is my issue with you Mark, when you reviewed Nike Pro Ltd with compression channel you praised it. Helped on miss hits by increasing ball speeds when you hit it out of the bottom. The slots do the same thing as compression channels. I don't think TaylorMade have said they are the only ones to do this or that they invented the idea. Just that they have developed another way of doing it. Tom Wishon introduced variable face thickness on irons 10+ years ago. But if TaylorMade has the money to market their ideas I think that is part of being in business. At least it's not 17+ further blah blah blah.

[@33115566]

Eureka business idea - practice balls which leave a washable mark on the iron face.

[@seyeRFunnnnn]

You forgot to mention that the 850 FORGED feels like you're hitting the golf ball with a frying pan.

[@pdilla47]

I don't think Mark was doing any bashing to me it sounds like he saying don't caught up in the marketing other clubs has tech in it that will give you forgiveness. These days you can't compare clubs brands 6 for 6 because the loft are all over place.

[@jeffreytrigger9582]

You're saying it's the indian, and not the arrow? But I have to hope right?

[@daveslickpack1696]

"Nice head down by the ball".

[@LS48IRL]

This 5 iron vs 6 iron crap has to stop. How can you try and compare two different irons. Not the first time you've did this.

[@MarkCrossfield]

haha so many miss the point with the lofts.

[@LS48IRL]

Mark Crossfield It not really the lofts that I'm talking about. It wouldn't be any different if the lofts of the two clubs were identical. Its a lot simpler to compare the distance of two 6 irons (even if the lofts are completely different) and compare the data. For example I'm currently looking to buy a set of golf clubs at the moment and i thought this video would give me a good comparison to how much distance/peak height/spin would be lost/gained hitting a forged 6 iron compared to a non forged club similar to what I'm playing with now. To much guessing involved with 5 iron vs 6 iron and I'm not really learning anything else. Its obvious that the forged club will feel better (or as you think about it 'sound better') and a Mizuno iron will look better than a Taylormade iron but its all the details that are as obvious that I'm interesting in learning that you'd get from the launch monitor.

[@MarkCrossfield]

you get them from this video. maybe you just don't see them. the loft of two 6 irons would not be the same. so is that the same club data you need? please remember you need to try yourself for your numbers.

[@MarkCrossfield]

you understand that if the lofts are different it will encourage different spin, launch and overall flights?

[@MarkCrossfield]

guessing 6 to 5? come on you know your gaps don't you?

[@nova68nova]

I just don't take much away from 3 shots vs. 3 shots. Especially with a 27-degree vs. 25-degree. And 1/2 inch length difference between them. Just so many variables, you can't learn anything from comparing 3 shots.

[@anthonywest1752]

...as Mark has said in numerous videos, the data set he takes is from hitting INSIDE with his V1X's. The three shots that he hits on the range aren't the shots you are looking at with the data. He normally hits 10 or so and gives us a set of 3...

[@TheJhaley12]

I don't like the way Mizuno is taking the looks of their irons. I've always been a Mizuno fan but the looks are getting too far out.

[@MalcolmPowder]

Boron has a very high strength to weight ratio. I assume it is because of this that Mizuno are looking to include it in their clubs. I am sure it is nothing to do with marketing...#cynical

[@hobbs2005]

Why in the world wouldnt you compare identically lofted irons? Makes no sense

[@xnimmerx]

The lofts on iron's aren't uniform. A 6-iron JPX850 will not be the same loft as a 6-iron TM RSi2. So, as long as Mark tells us what the lofts are we can keep this in mind when reviewing the numbers.

[@jjpac2011]

I have a feeling the reason Mark tested those two specific irons is that those are the only ones the companies sent him for testing. Clubs not out yet?

[@hobbs2005]

don blem Looks like there's only 1 degree difference b/w identical irons v. 2 degrees b/w 5 and 6 irons. It may be as Jack Pacleb explains he only got sent these two irons for testing.

[@hartunion]

Mark - You're clearly anti TM for some reason..

[@CiPhEr505]

You know what the loft of the RSi1 3 iron is? 17 degrees. If that doesn't freak you out, consider your 5 wood is likely 19 degrees and a 'standard 3 iron' is ~21. These lofts are unchanged, they say, from the Speedblades. Just a little disingenuous to say to a customer "Hey we improved the distance of our clubs they're further than ever" when a huge reason is you made a 1 iron and painted a 3 on the bottom, not to mention the shaft length. Another part of the fine print reads "distance claim based on 4-iron test data. RSi 1 Irons designed with a COR up to the USGA limit. Due to manufacturing tolerances, not all irons will reach the maximum." What that means is, some of the clubs can do what their marketing says, and some won't ever because of acceptable 'manufacturing tolerances'. No probs right?

[@texasgold007]

This has to be the dumbest gimmick I've ever seen in a golf club TM are just getting worse and worse.