TCG DESIGN THEORY #04 - Designing TCG Combat Mechanics || Tanner McBride || KRYPTIC || Podcast | CCG

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On this episode of TCG Design Theory, Jay talks to Kryptik TCG’s creator, Tanner McBride, about designing combat mechanics.
[[ Please Note: this episode was re-uploaded due a graphics issue. The original version will remain unlisted ]]
Combat is a staple in trading card games, but is it an essential part of their design? How much does combat influence the other mechanics of a game’s design?
Considering combat is often a huge factor for players in deciding whether or not to play a game, balancing the system’s simplicity and familiarity are crucial to the design of a great game.
Music Credit: Jazzy Spot by SergeQuadrado
( pixabay.com/mu... )

[@AreorLeafra]

I still play Duel Masters and it's my duty to say: no need for so much hate for any game as this man has towards DM xD Different games, different game mechanics - not necessary worst. But you can't say there is no interaction in your opponents turn and follow up with "there is shield trigger mechanic" and few sentences later again "there are no interaction outside your own turn" and next sentence is "there is keyword blocker that allows you to block your opponents attack". Make your mind... Are there no mechanics on your opponents turn or there is at least two which you brought up? There are more in modern DM, but that doesnt matter ygo and mtg still has more. Sometimes it can be hard to keep track but it's just different ideas of the combat.

[@bbblackwell]

Never played Duel Masters, but if everyone's having fun, then the game's successful. I wholeheartedly support this message.

[@vincethemagician]

I love Kaijudo and honestly think the shield system is fine. The game came out a while ago, the card games were a little more linear back then. This was a great episode

[@froggyplay]

I'm currently making my own TCG. It's currently in Alpha State Playtesting among my friends. I'm excited to see it finished.

[@GeargianoXG]

I guess one of the reasons TCGs is so often focused around combat is because it gives good justification for your character focused cards leaving the field at some point. Combat also makes a variable number of participants and interaction with the opponent necessary. For Non combat focused competition you're either completely focused on your own performance or the number of participants is highly regulated, so the framework just doesn't fit that nicely on a game that's about interaction and playing a variety of cards. It's of course not impossible, but it either requires a higher amount of abstraction (a character entering the field doesn't mean they are just now joining the game, but taking an active role, whereas them getting removed from the field is them getting in a bad position and not being able to act until they get played again) or creating a new framework or maybe non at all

[@TBPN]

I think every card game needs some sort of conflict, but I think we are seeing a lot more examples releasing now that use methods other than traditional combat to satisfy the conflict component of the game. - Jay

[@Gemwielders]

I think I share a lot of your design philosophy. Especially the part about not having a board. I love when you can play a card game on a small table on a train and still have a lot of complexity. I guess I should try kryptik

[@TBPN]

I agree that creating a simple framework and letting the complexity of the game really shine through card interaction is a tried and true design strategy! - Jay

[@RichardGaskin]

Stumbled across this video while searching for something else, enjoyed every minute. Knew nothing about Kryptic going in, but Tanner's approach to his game and his business make me want to check it out. Thanks for bringing this vid. All the best to you both.

[@TBPN]

Thank you for the kind words! - Jay

[@goncaloferreira6429]

32:31 One of my greatest battles. Players dont try other games and because that have very limited notion of the possibilties of the medium. Also generates fanboys and makes discussing design very difficult.

[@jaydotson4505]

I think the nature of TCGs has forced them to be lifestyle games, where you only play one, maybe two. As we see more indy projects come out of the woodworks, depending on how they handle card rarity and balance, I think we could see players get interested in multiple games because of the low buy-in.

[@joe-wi8nj]

Love how hard you stick to your guns on card only mechanics....big swole!

[@RarecuisineSaucegod-ig8bc]

21:54 One stat games can differentiate blockers and attackers by their abilities. For example: 2 cost 3000 power vanilla Or 2 cost 2000 power and gains +3000 power while attacking Or 2 Cost 4000 power this card can't attack Makes the one power a lot less boring and fits cards into the roles players can choose from at that cost.

[@TBPN]

That is a very interesting way to think about it! - Jay

[@goncaloferreira6429]

Nice Podcast. Tanner was a great guest, communicating his ideas very clearly. Would love go get his opinions on games on the market and their designs.

[@jaydotson4505]

Tanner had a lot of good insight on other TCGs in our discussions prior to the podcast. He would be great to talk to about that.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

@@jaydotson4505 Just do it. It will be good content.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

24:03 This man is clearly a mtg fan and has learned a lot from it. What he is talking about here is very close to what i thing Rosewater would do if he could change Magic.

[@jaydotson4505]

Magic has the Spellslingers game on mobile that plays more like hearthstone. It's clear they see the need for a more streamlined form of play, but changing Magic is a monumental task, I'm sure.

[@WeAreDraper]

For someone that made a game that is heavily, heavily inspired by DM (shield and mana mechanics being almost identical) this guy seems to have a lot of unnecessary hate for that game. Also I’m not sure he understands what qualifies as interactions during the enemie’s turn, because there’s plenty in Duel Masters…

[@Layjus123]

I'd like if the different card types had different designs in the background outline for style reasons and for the ability to easily identify what card it is at first glance. Cards that cost different colors should include those colors in the card outline art too imo. I would love for the game to have enchantments as a card type (or be it named something else to fit lore). I along with most of my friends love game-changing enchantments with on-going abilities. They'd be a nice addition.

[@jaydotson4505]

Speaking on Kryptik directly? That would be an interesting thing for the design team to explore, assuming that haven't already.

[@gobblin8304]

Great episode, enjoyed this a lot. One small piece of feedback tho - I think the title is a bit misleading. This is more of an interview about Kryptic than a theory discussion about combat mechanics. I still would have listened to an interview about Kryptic, to be clear. And I think the episode was great. But definitely not what I was expecting from the title. I was expecting more of an overview of the existing landscape of combat mechanics and how they influence the design, what their pros and cons are, etc.

[@TBPN]

Thank you for the feedback! My goal is to do another (if not multiple) episodes on combat mechanics in the future. I agree that this episode was not nearly as expansive as it could've been, and I look forward to interviewing others about their perspectives. - Jay

[@admiralcasperr]

32:30 ""You see, the key to playing this deck is" "Oh I know." "How did you know I didn't even tell you what the deck is." "Because I played everything." "Whadya mean you played everything? " "I played everything."" --Remy

[@TBPN]

What Tanner says here is really valuable from a designer's perspective. Learning and playing all the games you can is almost essential to being confident in your own design abilities. - Jay

[@admiralcasperr]

@@TBPN yeah, I get it. I just wanted to tell a joke-referance .

[@AbstractObserver]

Kinda expected someone adding to the discussion on how to make more varied combats... all he had to add is how awesome his game is and that MTG is the only fun combat system. You should have named it "Why you should play Kryptic" ☹️

[@TBPN]

Combat is such a big topic. Hopefully I can interview multiple creators about the subject as time goes on! - Jay

[@devinmychan9262]

Tanner just impresses me more and more after every interview. Thanks for having him on.

[@jaydotson4505]

It was a pleasure to speak with him! Tanner has a great passion for his game and the TCG community as a whole.

[@joe-wi8nj]

Sidesteps balance complexity by being not tournament....

[@joe-wi8nj]

This is good.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

8:46 isnt dual masters still going strong in japan? This is about the old dilema betweeen complexity and simplicity. Most games made in japan, aka made for kids and based on existing ips, go for the simplicity side of things and little to no interaction. Legends of runeterra goes to the other extreme with their removal of turns and being able to respont to everything.

[@jaydotson4505]

Yep! In Tanner's opinion, Duel Masters is too simple, but there is definitely a target audience. Having played Legends of Runeterra myself, I don't see the turns being slowed down too much from each player reacting constantly to one another. I think the game strikes a good balance between complexity of interactions vs simplicity of design.

[@ferretfather2000]

what if in a life decking situation you incorporate a deck regeneration concept like that of Regicide?😐

[@TBPN]

Life decking has a very negative stigma around it, but I think it can be done well if fit into the proper design! - Jay

[@goncaloferreira6429]

21:37 yes

[@jaydotson4505]

Yu-Gi-Oh has a special place in my heart. I wish they would simplify the rules and card text even more so than they have for speed duels. I think players would come back to and enjoy the game if it was truly re-invented.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

@@jaydotson4505 i have argued before in favor of a year 0 for the game, where they could transform the game ( redesigning cards, adopting keyword, increasing font size, standardazing card size and embracing card rotation and overall developing a new era). With each year that passes that becomes harder. Yugioh continues with the current course because players/costumers say yes to "the comapany´S" decisions.

[@seventfour9247]

Why is the guest the expert witness on alternative win conditions and TCG game design? His game is a 90% mtg / duel master clone.. and not even really out yet……

[@TBPN]

okay, interesting statement. It feels like this comment comes from a very judgemental place. Almost all art takes inspiration from other pieces of art (yes, games are an art form). Does this episode need to be the ONLY episode ever of this show about combat mechanics? no of course not. However, is this one about *Tanner*'s opinion about them? yes it is. We were very lucky to have him as a guest & I hope you found some value in his words & our show. We are very proud of it. - Rands

[@seventfour9247]

@@TBPN no hate and not judgmental.. I simply didnt understand why he would be the right person to ask this questions. e.g. the guys from Flesh and Blood did make a TCG that has alternative combat mechanics and they have proven a successful design. Kryptik doesnt and up until this point didnt. Thats all. No comment about Tanner, the community or project.

[@TBPN]

@@seventfour9247 Completely understand now & truly sorry if my previous comment in anyway felt accusatory . Obviously this is a new show & is approaching more accessible people first. If you feel like you would want to share people you would like to hear from & topics you would want to hear about from those people, please feel free to let us know. If you would like to do so you can either feel free to do that here, via an email ([e-mail]) or even DM us on any social platform we have. I hope this doent feel anything but genuine-thanks for checking out the show & hope to see you around these comment section again soon. - Rands

[@seventfour9247]

I’m sorry too if i came across as mean. It wasn’t meant this way.. :/ also, when I call kryptik a copy it isn’t even necessarily a negative thing either. The art is stunning and story is very unique. I actually think your question is necessary to ask! So many tcg games are based on the assumption that combat has to happen and that damage is the main measure of success. MTG itself did something interesting with control archetype decks that forces the game into Alternative loose conditions….. I feel like there is an incredibly large and unexplored designspace waiting for new people in this genre that are willing to risk going a few steps off the beaten path.

[@Lunacccy]

Don't steal your ideas? lmao they sound a lot like the “no battle system” tcg I've been designing for close to a decade. How about you don't steal mine 😂 that aside thank you for the input

[@seventfour9247]

Tell us about it!

[@TBPN]

Let us know when it's out! TCGs with no traditional battle system are very interesting to me! - Jay

[@joe-wi8nj]

Heya tell me more !

[@chenhan22]

Yup, it’s not about the idea but the execution 😂 I’ve been trying to make a PVE card game on and off for 3 years now as well. Hope you figure it out!

[@soxs9527]

@@chenhan22that ideas crossed my mind as well

[@Serjohn]

whats up with the duel masters hate ? duel masters is the best designed tcg

[@TBPN]

Usually the games that are both loved and hated are the best ones! - Jay

[@joe-wi8nj]

Ricky!

[@GalacticNewsNetwork1]

Listen I’m creating a card game I just need some help with a point system n how that works can someone point me in that direction

[@raysandrarexxia941]

I'm a game designer with no network or money... guess my dreams will stay dreams

[@TBPN]

After speaking with Tanner, I realize that he has a very specific way of how he wants to run his game and his business. While his story is a great example of what you need to do to succeed, his entry into this space is one of many different ways that indie TCG creators have found success. Don't have a network or money? No problem! Build your network over time and look to crowdfunding your project. Join us on Discord and you can connect with fellow TCG enthusiasts and designers. It's a good place to start! - Jay

[@RB1TR4G3UR]

His card layout is alot like the one Ive been developing 👀.. but also different alot ... I want to know he dont think choosing the Attacker is a bad Game Disgn ? Thats what I am trying to figure out.. I'm definitely going to pick this up and check it out for sure .

[@joe-wi8nj]

Life decking sucks! You always lose a card you wanted to play at some point!

[@TBPN]

Every time! - Jay

[@ValdiosBlaster]

I'm 15 minutes into this video and the guest has stated, and I'm not kidding, 3 different Duel Masters mechanics are mechanics that "Nobody likes" You're allowed to punch up, but be accurate about it. (The three mechanics he has referred to specifically are: having dedicated blocker cards, the inability to act on the opponent's turn, and cards having a singular power stat.) I would be surprised if he's aware that Duel Masters is still going in Japan. Duel Masters is constantly fighting for being the most popular card game in Japan to this day (along with Pokemon, and Yugioh). It is above MtG in Japan, and, yes, even Kryptic. I'm not going to say popularity does a good game make, but clearly people do like these systems. So far all the guest has done has discredit himself as a result. Clearly there is something about the simplicity in Duel Masters that makes it elegant and have long-lasting appeal. Additionally he's thrown out the idea of 'interaction' like 20 times and just parroted the concept that interaction on your opponent's turn is the only meaningful form of it (here I'm extrapolating slightly because it's the only thing he's talked about aside from Kryptic's lore). A game like Duel Masters has interaction, just not during your opponent's turn quite as frequently. Instead of passing priority, you're passing turns and letting the opponent act on their turn, which may as well be just as interactive as passing priority in a lot of cases, but has less awkward staring at your opponent waiting for them to move every time you take any action. Games that don't have stacks can be more interactive in a lot of cases. I would argue the Transformers TCG is designed around this concept, and does it quite well, and, at a base level, I think is more interactive than a game like MtG. That all being said, I like the quality of this podcast. I'm gonna check out your other stuff, but I can't watch this one anymore... This guest is mispresenting basic concepts and returning conversation circularly away from the directed podcast topic toward Kryptic (a game I, the listener, have no reference for, nor care much to look into after listening).

[@goncaloferreira6429]

Lots of praising mtg and talking down on Dual masters lol

[@TBPN]

Duel Masters isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I think the game has some solid ideas regarding fundamental mechanics. - Jay

[@goncaloferreira6429]

@@TBPN An episode about dual masters would be great. Apart from mtg is perhaps the most influencial game. And i am curious to know why it isnt " everyones cup of tea" :)

[@RarecuisineSaucegod-ig8bc]

I agree that there should be an episode on the most influential TCG Duel Masters. While MTG is the undisputed juggernaut of wizard style TCGs, DM has had way more influence over the design of modern card games than MTG.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

@@RarecuisineSaucegod-ig8bc "wizard style tcgs" ? what moden games are you thinking of?

[@RarecuisineSaucegod-ig8bc]

@@goncaloferreira6429 wizard style is what i call games where you have a main character (either you or a deck master/commander/etc) are summoning minions and casting spells to defeat your opponent. games like MTG, DBS, Duel Masters, etc

[@Zutang777]

My combat system goes against everything you talked about here. You’re missing other concepts of combat if you end it on this conversation

[@TBPN]

This is hopefully one of many different conversations regarding combat mechanics as the show continues. I think what is valuable to take away from this is that your combat system (and card game) shouldn't be designed for everyone in mind. Tanner has a very specific audience he designs for. On the other hand, there are a lot of core truths to what Tanner was saying in regard to combat systems in general, such as making them interactive, engaging and simple. Of course, it's a wide open world of design out there! - Jay

[@Zutang777]

@@TBPN I think the choices he made were great for his game. and is definitely a good way to design combat. but hopefully in the future you can get another guest to continue this topic so people can see a variety of combat systems.

[@GeargianoXG]

While your comment is over a year old, would you like to share a bit more about your combat system? Curious to hear about how you've done it.