Teaching, Learning, and Remembering Rules (Sunday Sitdown)

[@Liopot68]

Also, the more games you learn, the easier it becomes to learn games.

[@susansiragusa-ortman3108]

Another Great video 😄 One of my biggest beefs with many rulebooks is that they are not organized in a very list like or outlined format, so it is hard to find things when you are trying to look them up, especially irritating with setup…. “How many cards do we draw?” Etc. Pandemic is one that really comes to mind. I tend to look at BGG to see if people have poster player aids. Table of Contents / Index features are great… Gloomhaven did a good job with that. Thanks for sharing your insights.

[@Laughing-Tree]

I'm suprised "theme" wasn't mentioned. If a game's rules make sense thematically, I find them far easier to remember and also teach.

[@jameystegmaier]

Definitely! If a mechanism can be explained thematically, I find it much easier to remember and teach.

[@Atlas-FM8]

Yeah one of my favorite things about Tuscany and Scythe is that you always know exactly what resources you start with. That is by far the most common thing I have to look up in most games. "How many coins do I get? How many wood? Gold?" etc. etc. It's a small thing but it's really nice not to have to look it up.

[@jameystegmaier]

That's something I aim for in my games--the less you need to look at the rulebook, the better.

[@GaladhrimArcher]

I love that whenever I doubt your sitdown will help with my design, it ends giving me a ton of inspiration about how to revise my designs. Thanks for the wisdom :)

[@comanaut9566]

One of the biggest mistakes that I feel is made in rule books and how to play videos is a lack of context. Too often I am told what actions I can take but not why. Clear, intuitive iconography is super helpful. Great Western Trail or Rajas of the Ganges are two games that do this really well. Viticulture is great game to teach because it’s logical. If you want to harvest you need to plant, if you want to plant you need grapes. Anybody can understand this & therefore have an idea of what they need to do next in the game. I have taught it as a gateway game with no problems. Modern video games incorporate tutorials as part of game play so I suppose board games could do this as well but once you understand the gameplay I guess that experienced players wouldn’t want to go through this experience every game. For me the best thing that a rule book can do is have clear examples & lots of them. And finally... just play! Learning a new game & discovering how it all works is part of the fun. It doesn’t matter if you make mistakes.

[@CeePhour]

The book for Great Western Trail is amazing. It is so expertly laid out, clear, and comprehensive. Everyone writing a rule book should hire whoever worked on that.

[@Carighan]

Yeah, same. I feel that even with the hieroglyphic nightmare 7 Wonders can be at first, everyone intuitively grasps it a few minutes in, and many of the designs are clever re-usage of existing systems. On the opposite end of the spectrum is the chaotic rulebook + exceptions + no explanations mess that is Mansions of Madness v1.

[@leeko8581]

It's an interesting point, and a tricky one. A big part of gaming for me is learning what the strategies are and why you would do certain things. To be handed that as part of the rules could be a bit invasive. Although I've seen rulebooks that get around the issue by having a separate section on strategy

[@comanaut9566]

Lee Ko - I certainly wouldn’t want to be given outright strategies in a rule book. I agree that discovering or trying different strategies is a huge part of the fun of board gaming. When I speak of context I’m thinking more of just the basic ‘why?’ Why would I want to take any particular action? What does it do? Examples are probably the best way of showing this. I’ve seen to many game explanations that say on your turn you can do action A, B, C etc but not show what the point would be. I think many rule books take for granted that we are all experienced gamers and end up being impenetrable for newcomers. Then again it probably depends how we as individuals take information on board. I learn best from watching, so examples are good for me. A video is even better. Anyway, the point is that I am making a distinction between context & strategy. For me they are separate things, but perhaps it can be fine line & as mentioned, discovery & the sense of wonder that it brings is often the best part of getting to know a new game.

[@J-Wheeler-G]

I watch watched it played (only him) read the rule book. Teach the game play a full game and read the rules again after to verify some situations that I might had doubts on how they work. And after that I remember the rules for ever.

[@edmundengland]

Great video, you have such a good way of talking clear and you say much with very few words. That is really difficult. I got some inspiration for my game and that is to make a pre constructed run through of a set of turns. I think that would help me in learning a game. Thanks again.

[@jeffhiatt3793]

I find that it is important with any rule book to have a searchable PDF version available. I find that it makes thing so much easier when you have that for your player so they can do keyword searches while playing. Another thing, even though it might be tempting to invent new terms for a mechanism. It makes it hard for player to switch from game to game when a designer tries to be clever and call it something else or use a common term in their game and have in mean something completely different

[@imaginaryswordstudios7398]

Yeah this is easily one area where a lot of innovation is needed in board games. I find these days it is so hard, in my group atleast, to get a new game to the table because people aren't keen on learning a new game, and also don't want to waste time on game night learning rules. One aspect that you just touched is that different players want to learn in different ways. Here I think about how many video games let you say "Hey, I know this genre" (an FPS for example) or "I'm new to this type of game" and the tutorial adapts to it. I think more complex games need multiple types of tutorials, where the group can say "yeah we know worker placement" and then go through a quicker setup/rules process. Many movies and video games start with a bang, narratively. There are tons of great example of opening levels that provide a great experience while you are actually learning. This is where board games need to go, I think - can the opening tutorial part also be epic in some way? How would that work? Interesting stuff to think about :)

[@jameystegmaier]

That's a great question, and I like the comparison to movies. I think that's tough to pull off in board games, because if you start off in the middle of the action, players can be overwhelmed with all the information they need to handle that situation. That's why I think some of the most teachable games ease players into play with a few simple decisions to make early in the game. But if what you describe is possible, I'd love to see it!

[@nib71286]

@@jameystegmaier kind of like a Star Wars film, there is the opening crawl, then Bang we are in space and the action board determines what we can do, like a "heads up display", then the game opens up from there like in Lords of Waterdeep.

[@scyldscefing3913]

The first game I taught myself, the game that ignited my interest in board gaming as a hobby, was Fury of Dracula. I found the separate "Learn To Play" and "Rules Reference" set up worked very well. In retrospect I may have bit (pun intended) off more than I could chew for a first time gamer, but it did work.

[@bernardorippe7024]

Thanks for this complete and nice approach of games learning and mechanics. Can you consider make some video logs about dices, randomness and modern boardgames? I use dice as a simulation, and players choices modifiy the chances of some state. I and lot of players for sure will want to hear your analisys about this. Good sunday Jamey.

[@jameystegmaier]

Sure, I can consider luck and randomness as a possible topic!

[@MarkoPrvulovic]

Not sure if someone has already mentioned but the Aeons End comes with prepared decks and instruction how to play your first game. I don't remember if you could actually fully complete it but the players will certainly understand all crucial game rules before even reading the rulebook. Very good example how to learn a deck-building game.

[@jameystegmaier]

I'm glad you mentioned Aeon's End. I haven't played it, but I've heard great things about how it's preset for the first game.

[@HighbridgeD]

Tiny Epic Galaxies. Super easy to setup, clear iconography for the cards and player mats, plus a quick reference on the inside of the lid for things that aren't always in effect every game. I recently had less than 30 minutes at the end of a game night to teach two new people how to play the game, and one of them won the game by the end of the session. They'd even mentioned that they hoped to play that game again next session, so I'd say they hit the nail on the head in terms of accessibility and ability to retain the rules.

[@alicia1465]

I personally learn through play-through videos the easiest. Rulebooks and tutorials often overwhelm me, though I do watch tutorials sometimes. I love the approach of having various ways to learn.

[@falconashek8913]

My friend and I were confused with Tiny Epic Zombies the other day. The rules are design to play for three players off the bat. So the Watch It Played video is that way as well. We wanted to play two player co-op and the rules are in the back few pages. We finally got it down, forty five minutes later.

[@jonknight4616]

Having two different kinds of tutorials sounds like a great idea. I'm one who doesn't like my turn dictated to me. I want to try things, based on my understanding going in. Also, yes on having 1 player reference card that you do not have to flip with all of the pertinent info. That is so useful! Not enough value is placed on a great reference sheet that is quick to peruse in times of need, rather than having to shuffle through a rulebook for that one clarification. Fantasy Flight does a lot of the 2 rulebooks thing, with one being a quick start guide and the other being more comprehensive. I like how easily Rex breaks down phases, like you talked about. Each race has its own ability, but the core game plays the same, and each round is broken down into individual phases where each player does a specific kind of thing. So going through 1 round, phase by phase, is fairly easy to do for new players. One thing that can hamper learning a game and this is something you sort of touched on... and that is having a bunch of icons representing actions. Iconography is one thing, but if I have to reference everytime I want to do such and such icon's action, that is frustrating and is basically like having to learn a new language. If the iconography is intuitive of what it means and the action is fairly straightforward, this is less of an issue, as you only need a reminder maybe if you return to a game in general or maybe you can just view the icon and interpret its meaning and that's even better. As an aside, really enjoying the 3rd book of Red Rising series. Almost finished, about to get into the 4th. I'm glad I discovered this series, thanks to you, Jamey!

[@arcubal]

Thx! I don't mind 'the ramble' in this case. I've been obsessed about the intuitiveness (or not) of game rules and agree with everything you said. One example of an overly complicated set of rules to get into (and I'm no slouch in learning complicated systems) is Robinson Crusoe. I've had my eye on this popular game, mainly because of its immersive theme and engrossing co-op challenge. Yet, even after seeing 'Watch It Played' and reading the rulebook I find myself struggling greatly with all the various facets of the game. It was just hard for me to find the...flow of turns without forgetting the intricacies of each option. Tutorials and "reward-driven actions" can help greatly, I agree. I wanted to design a game that went one step further, namely, start with one rule only (or even none at all) and introduce complexity of rules as you progress through the game. Thematically this makes sense as it's a game about amnesia and rediscovering who you are and what you can do. The reward of discovering something new, thematically, is at the same time the discovery of a new rule, which gives the player's character an extra ability/path/tool to winning the game. What do you think, Jamey? Do you feel that the trend in rule teaching/learning is good enough or is there room for improvement by inventing new ways of showcasing the rules of a game? Or is a complex rule system just a symptom of an inefficient game design that should have been simplified?

[@amandavallerand7409]

For one of my designs, I decided to add special ability cards that would change every game to increase replayability. However, I didn't want to add to the players' load at the beginning of the game, and so I made those actions cost money, and you only get money at the end of the first round: therefore, those ability cards only come into play on the second round. I found that being able to say "you know what? This doesn't matter now." made the teach much easier, and teaching that part after players have experienced a round gives them something to latch the information to.

[@jameystegmaier]

That's really clever, Jonathan--I like that!

[@KSweeney36]

I like get the theme and the basics then learn as I go, however my mate likes all the rules at the beginning. As I tend to be the one teaching, and sometimes a rule only comes up in certain circumstances, I leave it/forget it until it comes up. But then ‘ jokingly’ get called for making/add new rules mid game with mocking line, ‘well if I had know that I would of done x earlier.

[@amandavallerand7409]

I'm exactly like your mate. I think it comes down to knowing your audience, and balancing how much they need, how much they want, and how much they can handle.

[@clumsydad7158]

the best way to learn most games is to do a run thru and learn from the person as you go, but then when everyone gets it go and start a game for real. explaining rules over an empty board with everyone staring into space is a classic waste of time

[@Drummerboymatt27]

Hey Jamey! I'd say a key barrier to teaching and learning games that you didn't cover is theme. When a rule or concept is tied to a thematic reason for it, it's less cumbersome to teach and learn.

[@mortenolsen1367]

is there really a difference between making a choice during setup and making a choice on your first turn? I fell equally helpless to be honest. Or do you mean Agricola and Catan levels of setup choices?

[@jameystegmaier]

Agricola is a great example of what I mean, though it offers a nice alternative: Instead of drafting, you can just deal out cards and begin.

[@mortenolsen1367]

Thanks for clarifying. And thanks for making great games. I played Scythe twice yesterday and got Viticulture in the mail last Wednesday

[@danielkeim8558]

I feel like Fantasy Flight has several solid examples of the Learn-to-Play rules and Rules Reference books. I know some of theirs are better than others. Two that come to mind are Arkham Horror Card Game (fantastic combo, as you can seek rule clarifications as they come up) and Imperial Assault (super fun game, but my group found the two rulebooks very clunky and even not helpful at times). FF is always streamlining and tweaking their games though, so Imperial Assault's new app probably fixes the rulebook issues or just handles it for you. Great topic, Jamey!

[@leeko8581]

For the life of me I can never remember Eklund's Greenland rules. Although I always remember that the rules are not really all that complicated. There's just something about the long list of bullet points that stops me remembering, means I have to go back to a fairly lengthy rulebook, and the reward I get from the game just isn't enough to keep me going back to that rulebook.

[@Stephen-Fox]

For learning a game, I find it easier to know the goal beyond 'most points' to help contextualize everything. Is there a primary way of getting points? Let me know. With games where points are awarded for various things, it can be a bit harder to contextualize that, but when I'm teaching a game I usually try by giving the main categories of points. Or in a very open game, just 'many things give you points either immediately or at the next step.' Just a context for why might I want to do the things I can do, before going into what I can do. For me, not having to remember information helps for remembering games. I am absolutely going to forget how many cards or coins to give players during setup unless that's printed on a component. I'm probably going to forget what the cost is of an action if that's not printed on a player aid or the board (or even that there is one). I'm less likely to forget the existence of an entire mechanism, but if you can design the board or player aid in a way that reminds me of the mechanisms? Great. Worker placement is (usually) great for this, since all the costs of everything I can do are (usually) printed on the board. But even stuff like if there's a common card pool that are drafted from? Printing outlines for cards on the board to draft is going to help remember how many cards compared to just having the cards live off the board. And if that's connected to an action in a worker placement game? Placing all the actions involving that card pool around those cards helps me remember when you e.g. refill the market and helps me teach e.g. how to take a card. Scythe's asymmetry actually helps me remember stuff, because I don't need to remember what to give everyone, it's all printed on their player boards and faction mats, even if it's the same for them as everyone else. While with Ticket to Ride? I always have to check how many tickets to deal to each player at the start, and the fact that seems to differ from map to map doesn't help. The biggest memory aid to me, however, is sudden realization of being in error. If I played something wrong for years then found out about that, I'm unlikely to ever forget (e.g. stations having progressive cost in Ticket to Ride: Europe)

[@martproduction]

Andor walkthrough is really simple and even start up the first few turn and you continue to the first scenario where you were at the end of the tutorial. I really enjoyed that. But I dont like when there are 2 rulebook. If you dont read both, you’re missing some important rules that you wouldnt care by reading only the walkthrough rule.

[@jameystegmaier]

Andor! Yes, I've heard great things about that.

[@CeePhour]

I fully expected Andor to be brought up during this video. It really is well done. It was so well done I kept thinking I was missing a book in my box. No, you really do just start playing, and you really do learn how to play.

[@captainspoof101]

Jamey. Dumb question. How can I get involved in one of these Stegmeier protospiel events in the future? My wife and I would surely venture from Portland to St. Louis for such an event

[@jameystegmaier]

Thanks Patrick! You can indicate your interest here (I'll use the "back in stock" notifications for this product for the 2019 event). Also, I'll mention it in our e-newsletter: stonemaier-games.myshopify.com/products/stonemaier-games-design-day-2018?variant=1681408720921

[@richardshort2001]

"I avoid giving players choices in games" -Jamey Stegmaier :)

[@powertopeople1]

Our group is a family group from 12 to 72 in age, there can be 2 to 8 playing, depending on availability If we are going to try a new game, I am the person that gets everyone prepared for it. I will get familiar with the game, look at the game parts, overview the rules and watch some videos on playing. If the game is available as an app I may purchase the app and play the tutorial and maybe a game or two against the computer in the app, I have done this with Jaipur and Colt express .If I think some of the players might need a reminder when playing the game I will copy the rules and have a couple of extra copies around for people to refer to. The first round we play is usually a play through just so everyone gets familiar with the game play. If we go to a board game café, we also go knowing which games we are going to try, so once again I will get familiar with the rules , have a extra copy that I downloaded with me as an additional reference and request a overview by one of the staff. I just recently found 1960 the making of the president in a thrift store, before I play that game I am going to read “The making of the president 1960” by Theodore White, I have suggested to my opponent do the same but he has decided not to, I think it will add greatly to my enjoyment of the game

[@leosalcedo3384]

I have both scythe digital and tabletop version. Ditto for Root. For both, I learned the games better from the digital version. Developers need to give free access to the tutorial portion of digital games!!

[@kodim420]

Uh-oh, I see 7th Continent back there. It's addicting if you've never played- careful lol! But really, it's a perfect example of a game taking tutorial notes from video games. The starting area is a perfect tutorial.

[@jameystegmaier]

Indeed, I've played it quite a bit! Here are my thoughts (and that's a good observation about the starting area): kzbin.info/www/bejne/gZbLc2esapmVp7M

[@daem0nfaust]

I echo that, about being asked to make choices before you even know what is the basis for the best choices in that game. Man!!! In fact that irks me sometimes.

[@evergreen_monster]

Euphoria gets a lot of flak for how hard it is to teach it, and I can't disagree more. I typically start by teaching the basics (theme and goal), tying it with mechanisms when possible (e.g., morale). I then focus on one of the four main areas tied to the factions, and just teach that completely. Then when I'm finished I say: "and you can do the same in all these other areas". Finally, I proceed to teach the slight differences on the Icarite area (no constructed markets, and the other ways to place stars). The problem with Euphoria is how overwhelming the board looks at first glance but then if you divide it by four in your explanation and only really focus on one, it makes it really easy for new players to understand it.

[@MarkoPrvulovic]

Marquise de Cat :)

[@richardshort2001]

My kitty cat

[@captainspoof101]

Lol was gonna correct him too. He loves cats right?

[@2532robh1]

What is the game in the thumbnail?

[@firebound12]

Mech vs minions

[@2532robh1]

Matias W. Thanks!!! Looks cool!

[@albertk3038]

Cute cat!

[@alasanof]

I love your kitty

[@jameystegmaier]

Me too. :)

[@Ratstail91]

CAT CATCATCAT CAAAAAAAT Also, very informative as always.

[@MisterChris1978]

OMG!!!! that cat is giving me life!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@clumsydad7158]

This is a fascinating topic! I don't have time to watch right now, but an issue for me is I have trouble remembering any fiddly/complex rules, so I only do games with a simple rule set. Plus I really just enjoy those anyways. Even for instance 7W:Duel, which isn't too complex, but there's some little rules I have to always double check. (-: Peace !

[@kevinqueen6246]

Video games hold hands way too much nowadays, only fully releasing the player on the last level. Scythe is an excellent written rulebook. A literary work of art. Compare that to Great Western trail, it resembles something almost thrown together. Orleans is easier to understand because its concept is so simple. I think its okay to have a beginning rulebook which is dry and to the point but by the time publishing comes around it should resemble something like scythes'