Bike Games - Getting it Right

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[@effinjamieTT]

Reminds me of something Kaz said about Gran Turismo in an interview years ago, Driving isn't hard we do it every day, many games make it far too difficult in the name of "simulation"

[@TeamVVV]

Exactly, there is this perception among some gamers that simulation should be near impossible to drive/ride.

[@ManxVlogger]

Might be rose-tinted glasses, but Superbike 2000 was always one of the best for me.

[@hammerpgh]

Really enjoyed this video. Great insight from someone that has tested soo many of the games and with some real work bike knowledge. I’ve had a love hate relationship with Bike games over the years and struggled badly with them but the TTIOM genes have been by far my favourites. Not yet tried TTIOM3 but will be doing so at some point.

[@kafirr]

As a TT fan, I didn't think that one day we would have such a good game. The gameplay is incredible, everything is incredible, we are close to perfection. With 0 help we have here the new ultimate reference of the best handling. Best motocycle game ever !

[@TransportSimulatorNationTSN]

Can't tell the last time I sat down to watch a KZbin video for 30 minutes straight. I'm not even interested in bikes😂. Awesome video of bike games.

[@TeamVVV]

Haha thanks!

[@sahhull]

I dont watch short videos. Because I'm an adult with an attention span longer than a 3 year old.

[@nfdrummer92]

I dont think we can 100% replicate the realism of riding bikes in a game. Bikes game in video games should be enjoyable and fun to play with some logical physics of course.

[@DrewMonge]

Excellent video, friend. I'm 48 and I'm not a gamer, but I'm a motorcyclist. And I've recently become obsessed with the Isle of Man TT. In the interest of getting the near-best simulation possible of the actual TT course, I purchased my first game system. An XBOX Series X, and Ride on the Edge 3. I figured this is the closest I'll ever get to actually racing the TT. Watching your video was extremely informative and showed me that I was on the right path. Thank you!

[@TeamVVV]

Thanks Drew, appreciate the kind comment. Glad you are enjoying the game.

[@jef722]

As a biker from the 90’s Road Rash on the megadrive was just a joy and we had so much fun with it. Then for me yes i enjoyed Namco’s MotoGP game but it was MotoGP ultimate racing technology from Climax Brighton on the 360,it was my first foray with Xbox live and i massively enjoyed that game. The way you could slide the bikes felt intuitive and it just felt right. Disappointed with the way milestone have gone with MotoGP handling and physics where the last few years especially the MotoGP bikes have just felt a chore to play,handling and braking just feel off where as the moto 3 bikes feel enjoyable. Anyway great video as always Alan and it brought back a lot of memories

[@TeamVVV]

Thanks Jef, glad you enjoyed it!

[@GregzVR]

Microprose’s ‘GP500’ and the EA Superbike 2000 game in 1999, were the last bike games I clicked with. Bikes have to feel connected to the road, and not be _wishy-washy_ sliding over it, whilst having some centrifugal force, that keeps them upright in the slow turns.

[@starfox_wr-45e93]

Try GP bikes by Piboso. Basically the spiritual successor to those games (imho)

[@JaySamurai79]

Great video brought back memories. Best part is your implementation of the GAMES MASTER graphic lol

[@TeamVVV]

Love these graphics.

[@Str1000ac]

For me MotoGO 07 by THQ with fixed fuel tank camera had the best feeling of riding a bike. It forced you to move on the chair you are sitting while playing the game.

[@ProStriker92]

Talking about Road Rash, i hope there's a new Road Redemption. That game was a fantastic tribute to the Road Rash series with some crazy and post apocalyptic elements and played great as an arcarde. I still have in my PC the Windows 95 version of Road Rash. I been playing some PC MotoGP games from 2000s and there's some interesting stuff such Ultimate Racing Technology 2 and MotoGP 07 (both made by Climax).

[@UsielX]

Driveclub bikes > Everything else

[@AlexConnolly]

Delphine's MotoRacer on PC was the game for me, even if better and higher fidelity bike games existed at the time. Clean and defined arcade excellence.

[@cyrusshellard3905]

Good analysis of bike games in general mate. I too enjoyed the old 1s from the 80's and 90's. I would love an up to date Road Rash on PS5. I will be buying TT3 and i do have TT1. I personally love Ride4 and once you play with the settings and find the sweet spot you'll no doubt love it. So many races to complete and the bikes are gorgeous.

[@ninetyZeven]

Bike games I will admit I have not played much, but I have very fond memories of Motorcross Maniacs, a side scrolling stunt biker on the old Nintendo GameBoy. Still find myself whistling the soundtrack from time to time.

[@Sunny_Obi]

Nice video. I subscribed years ago but went away from racing games. I’ve recently been back with biking games for the first time in years and I’m blown away how much better MotoGP 23 handles. I’ve been tuning the bike and managed top 30 times at some tracks and just feel like that’s only possible for me now because it feels so much more connected to the track. I agree it feels nothing like simulating my real bike but just being able to push the bike to its limits around a track is so satisfying especially now it’s not feeling like a boat simulator now.

[@lifeofpike3912]

In my opinion Gp bikes is the best bike simulation game out there

[@pek7629]

Reason why I enjoy sims like GPB and MXB more than any other bike game is I'm in control of all of it. Instead of riding with one stick, I'm in control of the steering and rider seperately with both sticks. In MX side there is also sitting up and down and it all works better than any other bike game I played. Simplifying handling makes dull gameplay. Another big plus is fully customizable first person view and controls.

[@danlford]

That sounds way out of my league. I can't imagine having to steer using 2 sticks

[@pek7629]

@@danlford You're not forced to. There are multiple assists to make both simpler. I know many if not most GP Bikes players just use left stick steering alone and let the game handle rider movements. I just like the fact I can make it really hardcore for myself. MX Bikes is a bit different in a way that fastest players are using both sticks, but any newbie can ease their way into it with assists. Or just stick to simple controls. Most of everything is customizable to suit you. Both have free demos to test

[@OhGeeWhy]

man, last bike game I absolutely loved was Burnout Paradise's bikes. It was very arcade-y but they nailed the bike leaning and sound was pretty good. Just wished they actually had race modes. Bikes can be fun, I just wished devs would lean more into making steering feeling more snappier but well animated. It doesn't have to be full on sim, we have like 3 of them competing for the same thing and 0 arcade titles. It just has to be fast feeling, faster than car in both agility and speed perception, but also that feeling of scary of pushing it too far and falling from bike. Hell I even played MotoGP2 and 3 when THQ was publishing them, they were also really fun, not too sim but still needing some knowledge on riding bike, it wasn't super intuitive at start, but over time you could push your bike and go really fast. Also besides bikes just being way harder to implement into games with feeling good vs cars, bike games don't really have good way of controlling them. They have no standard that one game set for others to expand or experiment with yet, there are no " wheels and pedals " for bikes really, and adding so many complex stuff on bikes from leaning buttons, to front and rear brake and then if you want manual shifting and maybe clutch on top of that, its already a handful.

[@maxthunder2]

The Namco MotoGP games were my favorite. So as long as they're another bike games that plays like that I'll be happy.

[@TeamVVV]

They were great games!

[@nigelm5539]

Great video. Super Hang-On was probably my first bike game memory, watching my brother play it on the Megadrive. If we're talking all time favourites, the PS2 Namco motogp games were phenomenal and the track modeling way ahead of its time, which I didn't appreciate then but do appreciate now, the tracks in those games still hold up. I didn't buy Rims at release, but I will say that after playing Milestone games for a couple of years, the handling on Rims racing felt way more intuitive after about 10 minutes of play, which also should tell you a lot about the handling in Milestone games. At the end of the day, you just want a game where the handling feels intuitive and natural and I think studios have lost sight of that over the years.

[@ADYDRURY1234]

Hi again, I have had this for almost a week, PS5, I ordered it from a UK company and they sent it straight out early by mistake. Like you I have had most of the bike games over the years. I had the last two tt games and so far I am really happy with TT3. I thinks it's loads better than the last two. As a biker myself I feel they have at least got the basics right, most bike games end up with car like handling where you can go into a corner as fast as you want to and the bike just understeers while you run wide. Bikes obviously don't work like that. If you go into a corner too fast you crash, you also can't just lay a bike on it's side in a corner while holding the brakes on hard or you crash. I will be spending quite a few hours on this game. So far I think it's great which is more than can be said for the last two games which was full of glitches and random bugs which would throw you off the bike for nothing. The slow handling on the last game was a joke, I lost count of how many times I crashed on those last two hairpin bends wobbling all over the road trying to control it.

[@leonardoholanda2250]

E o clássico MOTO RACER? Como você pode esquecer? No mais, um excelente vídeo 👏

[@honeybadger9425]

TT3 feels good to me as a real rider the bikes going where I want it go and allowing me zone in on the horizon like I would a real bike. Best bike game in a while imo. I couldn’t get on with Ride4’s cornering felt weird crazy over and under steer and not much lee way to correct took so much joy out the racing aspect for me Ride5 I hope gets a re work.

[@simonwilliamson1979]

Anybody remember the PS3 move controller wheel from Sony that converted into handle bars complete with throttle ?

[@barbarosa220]

Amazing video Alan!

[@TeamVVV]

Thanks! :)

[@fdub301]

I used to play super hang on at Chuck E Cheese & that just brought back so many memories. Also, I love Driveclub Bikes. I’m glad you mentioned it. Like you, I’m not a fan of Ride 4’s handling. But I do really like the way Moto GP 22 feels. I might be in the minority, but once I picked it up I’ve been really enjoying that game as well

[@spex1993]

road rash 3d blew my mind at the time

[@drunksupportcharacter]

This is a top vid alan, you hit the nail on the head with the issues on Ride 4, and its not to say its a bad game on the whole, Many players confuse Simulation with Authenticity, The majority of games will be better with authenticity IMO, its like when you look at box art for a super trucks game, you instantly think "Powerfull heavyweight trucks" you expect mass and speed, yet if it handles like mini coopers going around goodwood, your perception isnt going to be the same, what is on your screen is deciving you of how the game actually plays if that is the case :/ The most time i spent on bike games were riding spirits 2 and tourist trophy, Road rash of course, even jailbreak on the GBA felt good, Ill throw this into the ring too, a game you very well know and love, Wipeout conveyed anti gravity racing extremely well, and i see similarities in this when it comes to understanding what the stick is controling and what you expect from the screen, the barge is going to tilt left and right, and for more adjustment the air breaks help you dig into the corners also a lovely visual to see in the game, you know they were working. And as for the feeling of speed, Man we had that back in the early days of wipeout and rollcage, Playing GRIP on an ultrawide today though, 700MPH gives you tunnel vision and i absolutely enjoy that, after you finished the race you know how focused you were on that race and you feel that rush, maybe that is half the objective of some games, to make a tunnel vision experience be a gameplay element? Might very well pick up TT3, as it does seem to flow in a nice way from what i have seen so far. P.S Thanks for showing that mototrainer, Thats the controller i wanted, best start saving :P

[@thatboysims3k879]

I just need a RiMS 2 😩😩 even if it's the same thing with more tracks... NEED IT

[@Jimmie92]

It’s the braking that I can’t get on with in MotoGP 22, they’ve started to make you think about rear braking too, and it’s not intuitive at all. Other than that their latest handling isn’t too bad, but a little clumsy at times, the bikes feel massive compared to the track at times.

[@flightis3dollars]

I really enjoyed MotoGP on the PS2 as well. Then I tried MotoGp on the original Xbox and couldn't go back to the PS2 game after that. 'That' movement felt all wrong then.

[@TeamVVV]

Yeah I snuck in a bit of THQ footage in there, also a fun game.

[@SirChioXXIII]

Ride 4 had the handling right at the start, they then dumbed it down to make it easier for non experienced riders. IOM 2 had the worst physics ever the bike went away from its line when turning in which caused you to hit outside kerbs. Rims racing was alright if only it would work every time😅. The thing you said about directional steering i dont like that at all feels like you're on an arcade bike game. Milestone got it right for me with Ride, feels most like going out on your bike to a track and have fun. all it needs is better Ai.

[@OffGridMadMan]

I'm the opposite to you, I don't enjoy anything by Milestone but TT2 was like crack cocaine to me, in 1st person view only though. I don't really like racing games in general but I'm a biker and found TT2 so much fun and so challenging and the only chance I'll ever have to blast round the Snaefell without killing myself 😅

[@Great-Documentaries]

8:50: "If you could do 60FPS in PS2 times, you can do 60FPS now." OMG! Does he really think it is even remotely the same software engineering achievement???? 🤣

[@TeamVVV]

The quote stands.

[@Werferharfer]

Great video. Have to try the old motogp games. The camera was also a big problem for me in tt2 .

[@tonybrookes4524]

Deathchase and Full throttle for ZX speccy were my first loves, then roadrash for megadrive. Kind of lost interest when I got a wheel for driving games to be honest, as there's nothing similar for bikes. Interesting video, thanks for posting it.

[@OffGridMadMan]

TT2 for me. But I'm old and not a racing game fan particularly. I ride in real life and don't care about "physics" and "realism" in a game, they simply can't recreate it. TT2 was just incredible fun, very difficult and very addictive and was the only game i ever got pretty good at 😅 GOT TO BE COCKPIT CAM!!! I'm hearing bad things about TT3 from those who have got early access with the special pre-order 😨

[@TeamVVV]

Sure, no handling option can appeal to everyone. I much prefer TT3, but each to their own on these things.

[@OffGridMadMan]

@@TeamVVV Thanks for the reply. My point I think is that TT2 had a very dedicated hardcore fan base purely based on how it played, regardless of gripes and "physics" 🙄 It appears this new one has drifted away from that. This is just based on what I'v seen from a few people but it's worrying. I hope it pans out well but I'm not buying yet. Thanks for the video too mate 👍

[@TeamVVV]

Yes, each game has it's own following. TT2 lost me, so I'm really pleased it has changed. But appreciate there are TT2 fans who will stick to TT2.

[@OffGridMadMan]

@@TeamVVV I bought the special edition of TT3 last night (couldn't resist!) and I thought it was brilliant! Not wildly different to TT2 but enough to be quite a big forward step. Much more difficult as well but I like that. Thanks for all your videos on this one 👍

[@spex1993]

Ive played everything since moto racer 1 and mx bikes and gp bikes by piboso is the closest ive ever seen to perfection and unfortunatly sometimes the furtherst away from perfection. I wish theyd get some love and get finnished makes me sad to the core lol

[@vonbarrel5023]

What is the name of a game from 10:45? The leaning camera is amazing! What do You think of implementing that type of camera in today's titles (like Ride or TT3)? Is it a good idea in Your opinion? This could add something new which no other titles have ❤

[@TeamVVV]

That's THQ MotoGP, 2002/3 ish. Hmm, I wasn't keen but it was a fun idea for a track racing game. Perhaps something to test on future games.

[@starfox_wr-45e93]

Most controllers have two sticks nowadays lol One for the bike one for the rider. Rider movement should be quite predicable when setting up for a corner. It's funny you mention peoples custom bike controllers and write them off instantly 😂 They're a far closer to steering/leaning than with thumbsticks and triggers for throttles. Don't knock it 'till you tried it. In theory a lot of FFB sensations thru a racing wheel aren't realistic, it damn sure works to provide a better user-experience in most games though, whether thru feel or immersion. @ 18:35 Weird how you group the controls, Alan. Is it not? Bike is controlled by combination of steering and body position. Not independently Head could be grouped with body (although with todays VR and head/body tracking tech, needn't be) Suspension is independent of the controls. The steering/Front wheel are controlled by the arms, therefore a singular input? The rear wheel is controlled by the throttle, which isn't really optional in a racing game lol

[@TeamVVV]

I've tested lots of bike controllers, I would have thought that would have been obvious from the video. Most players play from one stick, this is the core dynamic. Adding a second stick, doesn't change the fundamentals. It's nothing like riding a bike and never will be.

[@starfox_wr-45e93]

@@TeamVVV using an actual twist throttle, brake lever, foot gear shifter & brake is nothing like riding a real bike? Really? I get steering is a huge part of the controls, but they aren't the only part. Just as steering isn't the only part to driving a car, yet the wheel market is huge. Imagine if people just dismissed the ms sidewinder or whatever bungee based wheel.. And no, adding a stick doesn't change the fundamentals, that wasn't the point, it changes the gameplay. Body movement should be an assisted asset in those single stick cases. Rider tuck has an assist, is there a difference? I assume that's based on predictions as I mentioned before.

[@TeamVVV]

Having those controls is great fun. It's what the arcades were all about, were had toy bike games like that in the 80's. Obviously they don't simulate riding a bike. Ultimately it's down to intuitive playability.

[@starfox_wr-45e93]

@@TeamVVV I posted a huge reply. I guess because it had a YT link it's been moderated. ah well. lol

[@diigentace8066]

I agree with everything you said. However, the ai is another huge issue. The AI is never set to make mistakes like new users. We need in depth ai settings for speed, tire wear, and miscalculations. Not just slow or fast.

[@TeamVVV]

Good question, this is long term issue. AI uses processing performance, the growth is exponential. So, finding a balance without significantly affecting the graphics is key. Hardware is still very limited versus expectations of users.

[@vonbarrel5023]

Dear Team VVV if You could make a list of bikes in TT3 and make a hot lap on something different that we see previously in gameplays would be awesome❤

[@a8f235]

We are way past the point where you can just hop in a have a go at a motorcycle game and expect to have fun. Bike physics are way more complex than cars so it will both be harder to do in real life as well as in a videogame. You want it to be easier, but it will only get harder because naturally they are aiming towards more realism. The only way of enjoying such games is to try and build a knowledge of how bikes work, and how and what you can do to make things work in this or that game. If you do not want to understand or make an effort, then you should rather find some car games instead, and I do really mean that. I started with amiga 500 in the 80s myself, and it doesn't matter how many games anyone have played of this genre if things are not going right. We either want to or we don't want to, so it is just a matter of choice. I've also owned 6 motorcycles myself and I worked at a dealer for some time, ridden trackdays and so on so I got some real life experience as well with actual bikes. The feeling I get from this video is you think these games should be easier, and the only thing I will say is that I'll have to repeat myself and say that it will only get harder because evolution of physics. More people just need to understand that you cannot ride a motorcycle fast the way you drive a car fast, and expect it to go well. Without the understanding of how you can ride better nothing will ever work, it's that simple. The understanding needs to be there.

[@TeamVVV]

Not easier, just intuitive. Intuative is natural and natural is easier by default. Simulation can only reach a point when controlling with a stick.

[@a8f235]

@@TeamVVV Not *_easier_* just Intuitive -> Natural -> *_Easier._* You just disagreed with me and shortly after you didn't afterall. Any simulation can only reach a certain point because it is a *_simulation._* The whole point is that they have only scratched the surface, in which it will only get harder because with better physics you'll be able to ride harder. If you choose not to take advantage of the better physics, someone else will and that's the end of that. It is the path we are moving on where games will get more complex wether we want to or not.

[@TeamVVV]

Well balanced physics create intuitive control and is easier by default. You seem to be under the impression that simulation makes experiences harder to play, that's a misconception brought about by simulations with, bad physics.

[@a8f235]

​@@TeamVVV Nobody is talking about wether balanced physics is easier or not. You made a 30 minute long video of a nostalgia trip seeming you feel these games are heading in the wrong direction. You clearly want less realism, and I tell you again that it doesn't matter what you want because it will not happen. There will be more realism and you do not want to accept that fact which is why you're trying to row your way out of it all. I'm not in control of the industry either... PS: It is harder to be good in a game that are more realistic(more simulation) than something that are less realistic because you got more variables to evaluate while playing because of more *_ADVANCED_* physics.

[@GPICONS]

japon win win games

[@TaiPassionGP]

I've started with Super Hang On too, but why my childhood memories tell me that there was a custom menu in that game ? I remember before starting the race you had to choose your mechanic which was a bad one and the basic bike, later on you will earn credits so you can get a better mechanic and also unlock special parts for your bike to go faster. Mine was a different game or what ?

[@TeamVVV]

Hmm maybe that was in the Master System version, or maybe one of the many other 2D biking games. I forget a lot of them now, all good fun though.

[@TaiPassionGP]

​@@TeamVVV Thank you with your comment you gave me a useful clue. What I played was on Sega Genesis consoles in the original and non-arcade mode. Finally now I remembered that I always played on Sega Mega drive genesis.

[@tomneidher]

You can already see that TT 3 hasn't got it right this time either. I can tell that will not pay 1 dollar for this game ever. I'm going to download it my way and test it.

[@TeamVVV]

What do you see that emphatically tells you that?

[@xxTICxxTOCxx]

The sound in TT3 is a real step back from TT2, I'd be happy if they just duplicated the sound scape of TT2.

[@TeamVVV]

Not for me, I feel the clarity is better now.

[@sayocsid]

No mention of sbk 2001 on pc?

[@TeamVVV]

There was a load of games on the cutting room floor, so with limited time I just had to cut through a lot. But yes, that was another fun game, more like the THQ style.

[@Str1000ac]

@@TeamVVV For me MotoGO 07 by THQ with fixed fuel tank camera had the best feeling of riding a bike. It forced you to move on the chair you are sitting while playing the game.

[@paulhepden2536]

Hello I imagine that a lot of people that play motorcycle games also play games like gt7 acc and have access to a wheel. I wish they would try to add wheel support just to see what it is like. I know it’s totally unrealistic but it would be worth it for the force feedback alone. Just as an option please.

[@TeamVVV]

It has been discussed with different developers over the years, but it is felt that wheel compatibility would take away from the purity of the bike riding experience. On reflection I agree with that approach.

[@paulhepden2536]

@@TeamVVV yes but then again you don’t ride a bike with an Xbox controller. It’s a game would be good to have the option. Nobody has to use it. It’s like when they hire professional riders to test and have input in the game. They probably represent 1% of the people that actually play the game.

[@danlford]

@@TeamVVV yeah that makes 0 sense. How is it any more bike pure to steer with an analog stick than it would be with a wheel? I don't have a wheel and probably wouldn't buy one but why not make it available ? In fact I always assumed that they could be used on modern console bike games.

[@IASystemsComputerControls]

Thanks for the video. Once again I shall offer that you can come and try a real handlbar desktop and sit-on motorbike controller, you just never reply. My system has naturally handlebars with REAL twist grip throttle, Hydraulic front brake, clutch and the fot controls for Hydraulic rear brake and gearshift. You say the thumbstick on the stupid gamepads cant replicate riding a bike.........Try my system and you will be surprised at how it feels natural. I live near Coventry and your welcome to come and try it anytime. Then maybe you will see there is another option to the gamepad and it just works.

[@uvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweug6823]

Hi