Temperament for Fretted Instruments

A very abbreviated crash course on equal temperament, and how it applies to fretted instruments such as the guitar.
Temperament is a topic one can study for years, but here we aim simply to introduce basic concepts of pure tuning ratios vs tempered, equal temperament, the limitations of fret spacing on the guitar, and why those limitations never really go away with special tuning systems or fret spacings in the style of True Temperament or the many other guitar temperaments systems attempted over the centuries.
Be sure to listen through decent speakers if you want to hear the examples clearly.
*Please note - Ann Arbor Guitars only accepts jobs from walk-in clients. We do not and will not accept any shipped in repairs.

[@TheApostleofRock]

You explained this more accurately and succinctly than a lot of "more in depth" videos I've seen. Kudos to you sir

[@NozmoKing]

Dang! You had me very excited there for a few seconds with your promise of perfect intonation up the neck. Nice tease.

[@2yugen2]

Great video and channel. I wish there were more videos! But thanks for making the ones you have.

[@lifeintheriver342]

This helps me get over a life-long inferiority complex. I always thought I was bad at tuning, because my guitar would always sound a bit out of tune 😂

[@freddychopin]

Fantastic video, I don't think I've seen a more accessible explanation of temperament anywhere else.

[@innocentoctave]

This is an excellent introduction. I strongly recommend the follow-up video, which demonstrates the problems in applying tuning theory to practical intonation of the guitar, and dispels a number of myths about 'perfect' intonation on the instrument.

[@AsifMehedi]

Of all the ones I watched, this is the best explanation on this topic.

[@RaindropServicesNYC]

You really got me with that fake ending to tune to your next video. I really like your explanations. Thumbs up!

[@BurninSven1]

Going to music school here in sweden my teacher said there is even a difference between major and minor so a violin player would actually move their finger a little to compensate for it. So I started to think while watching your video if he was right and that is true I guess this would complecate things even more trying to reach a perfect tuning on fretted instruments, pianos etc. Thank for the videos I like then a lot

[@rogeralleyne9257]

This was absolutely fascinating!!!!

[@fullwaverecked]

These guys really know their craft. Top notch awesomeness!

[@stevenbeechey]

It’d be really great to do a series on tuning methods and how they relate to areas on the fretboard/voicings/strings being more in tune, which keys become favourable etc.

[@guitarslim56]

There is only one "tuning method." You turn the tuner, and the string gets tighter. That is the method.

[@CyberChapel]

Thank you for a deeply fascinating video. I would love to hear you analyse and comment on the "True Temperament fretting system" invented by Anders Thidell.

[@A2Guitars]

+CyberChapel - Without getting in to a chapter of specifics, I would say that on the surface it appears more or less based on reasonable concepts of practical (yet unequal) temperaments specific for common guitar chords. Unfortunately, it seems to have sourced it's offsets on data from less than ideal setups. I recognize many of the errors they are trying to correct for, but I recognize them as common results of common setup errors. In a properly setup instrument, their corrections would be far overshooting what I would consider beneficial. It is also by nature a broad generalization of offsets based on averages. In reality, a set of D'Addario, vs Thomastik, vs DR, vs Cleartone, would each require significantly different offsets, not to mention nuances to the rest of the guitar chassis resonances, setup, the player's style, etc. A generic set of averaged offsets means it will be perfect for none. Again though, I see the whole effort as completely unnecessary, and from a historical context is no different from what others have "discovered" or "invented" every few decades over the last few hundred years. The more you learn about the compromises within 12TET and its embodiment in the guitar, the more you can see why these systems never really took off before. But I'm sure some love it, and it works for their needs, and it's great that they're making this available for them. By and large though, I see it as being a bandaid for symptoms rather than a solution for problems, and trying to sweep the unsolvable problems under the rug.

[@CyberChapel]

+A2Guitars Thank you very much for your answer. This is a deeply fascinating subject.

[@MrNickdino]

A2Guitars. i like your videos because you use tools to do what you do scientifically, thats a major difference from most other videos in this field. But in your comment here you go by what it seems like to you. Could you do an analysis video of the different intonation systems for guitar like true temperament, buzz feiten, earvana and other significant ones please?

[@kevinmuller9948]

@@A2Guitars Could you go further into where their corrections are overshooting in your opinion? I've been playing a True Temperament (Thidell Formula 1) fretboard for a while and it seems to be pretty awesome. Very curious about your insight!

[@theharvardyard2356]

@@A2Guitars Yeah, could you go into more detail? I'm not really convinced it's not a practical improvement based on what you wrote. Most electric guitar strings are so similar, how could that effect it so much? Chassis doesn't matter much on electric, players' style can be modified, so that leaves "setup." Wouldn't it be implied that the setup would match as well as possible on such instruments?

[@vincenttanguay4198]

Sir, you know your stuff! That was amazing how you explained it all! I'm speechless! Mery christmas 2020

[@samuraiapocalypse704]

I usually compromise a happy medium between the first and 12 fret when I set my intonation. But I tend to favor the first fret more as to my ears it seems more obvious when the first fret notes are sharp. I also keep my strings fresh as old strings get worse real quick. Some guitars wont set well enough for me so I kinda detune the B & G strings to emulate the same compromise. Lol! Kinda primitive. I cant wait to study your next video to further improve my battle axes intonation! I find your videos fascinating and factual. It is a breath of fresh air to have someone speak science and not magical pixie horses.

[@steveg6199]

Unrelated to the context of this video, I just gotta thank you for some great tone testing for my headphones Left & Right. Really handy for my hearing and headphone testing! :-)

[@1777DK]

I have watched/listened to three of your videos in a row, and if some day, there is a way to up- and download knowledge, I would like to sign up for your knowledge on this subject.

[@Bojanmarsetic]

I tend to micro-tune my guitar depending on chords position. If theres a lot of chords of A-shape I lower my B and E respectively a bit what makes my chords very warm and settled down. Chords like Dmaj7, Amaj7, Amaj9 etc. on 5th fret are just beautiful. But if I have a song that it it's more E- hape or D-shape I have to adapt to that differently. So it is never the same tuning that's why I hate tuner machines, except for the reference A string. Of course I have a lot of work in this way but songs sounds better and I know why. Sometimes if I have to adjust on stage and it's very risky, but still worthy for the benefit of the vibe that creates. A guitar will never be perfectly in tune for all pieces but it can be close as it gets for certain songs. Not for jazz though :)

[@circular17]

There is a way to have almost perfect intonation in all keys. It is by using 19 notes per octave (abbreviated 19-ET or 19edo). It gives you an error of 7 cents only on minor third, major third, fourth and fifth. Also it is only 4 cents off the mean-tone second.

[@MisterManDuck]

I don't know, some people would find an error range of seven cents unacceptable. You could argue that they're close enough as to be considered better functional replacements than what you find in 12-edo.

[@normanspurgeon5324]

Is there a writer you can point to on this subject? thanks

[@circular17]

@@MisterManDuck Well to be fair I prefer 31-ET though that can be less convenient to add all frets. Though currently I use a subset of 31-ET, in fact 19 notes, but not equally spaced of course.

[@circular17]

@@normanspurgeon5324 Not really though it is easy to compute it yourself with a spreadsheet. Divide 1200 cents by 19 and compare to JI.

[@killboybands1]

@@normanspurgeon5324 there are several good books on tuning: The 'Just intonation Primer' is great, very straightforward. Kyle Gann's "The Arithmetic of listening" is good (there are errors in the book that he addresses on his website) His website is good too. There are also Facebook groups. 'Microtonal Music and tuning theory', and 'The Xenharmonic Alliance.'

[@mspeedm5849]

beauty of the guitar set up is how easy it is to bend the frequencies

[@walterherrera3733]

about a year ago by myself I noticed I can have the most perfect G but my D will suck. I detune my first string to have the perfect D and yes... the G now sucks. I always though my guitar sucked ... but now I know whats really going on

[@pera1295]

Just a small correction, ET 5ths are 2 cents flat and 4ths are 2 cents sharp, you got that backwards. Also, the true temperament fretboard is a well temperament, you can play with others instruments with it, although I imagine your mileage may vary.

[@normanspurgeon5324]

This is a great subject- I'd sure like to hear some references to go along with this- some books, some writers to point to. Here's one, which many of you may know- Owen Jorgensen's "Tuning". If any one has some books to point me to, I'd be so glad- thanks

[@mrokta7614]

thank a lot master......,good job

[@ANPEQ2]

Hi David it may be helpful to have some text over the video early on that defines what you mean by Hertz. Something like "Sound may be defined as vibrations that travel through the air or another medium and can be heard when they reach your ear. Sound may be measured by calculating the frequency of the vibrations per second. One Hertz (Hz) is one complete cycle per second."

[@CharlyPreissel]

GREAT ... THANK YOU ...

[@ThomasDeLello]

I'm a blues guitarist, so I bend my strings a lot foe small tonal deviations...

[@AhmadAbonasr]

can you explain to us what true temperament are trying to do as you explained with earvana and feiten resulting sharpening the frets beyond 12, and sweetening certain intervals on the expense of others. even with the best set up or zero fret or nut compensation, most sharpness at frets 2 resolve but I still find the G string, fret 2 (note A) and fret 1 always significantly sharp no matter how i adjust or offset the saddle. Finally, what I discovered is that evertune bridge solves most of the string tension elasticity issues and the slight sharpness at frets 2.

[@romantea3506]

I am struggling about this for years now. My partner doesn't understand my issues. My solution, i might just start playing the violin or cello i suppose.

[@gingercore69]

I almost never use fifths... Im wondering about getting a 19TET guitar, to have better thirds... But i was wondering if it wouldnt be better toget a meantone one? I rarely play in anythong other than Em, Am, Bm and Dm... How bad could it get?

[@sk8pkl]

Precise temperament by robert e grant is mathatically "almost perfect". He changes the value from the 5/4 ratio to 1.26 and it solves the problem for the pythagorean coma... Or the doubbling of the octave starting with fifts huhh Mrd... You know what im talkin about lol

[@CusterFlux]

Where's Part II?

[@megusta9045]

You almost lost me in the beginning, but I made it... WE HAVE ARRIVED TO THE 7:59 MARK!!!

[@jeffreagan2001]

Ignorance is bliss. My classical guitar sounds just fine using a Peterson strobe tuner to tune the open strings.

[@GlenMcGlone]

Funny ending. Lol.

[@psychotikpaisano]

My guitar is very temperamental. I try to play a note but it lifts its fret ends and cuts my fingers instead. FML.

[@jamesha175]

oh your guitar is the devil

[@darktempest53]

this wont work for anything that isn't in E...

[@svendtveskg5719]

I am a trained piano tuner, and everything else but ET simply sounds "arabic" or out of tune to me. But some classical guitartists like their weird looking frets, and, of course, each in his own.

[@RememberGodHolyBible]

The beſt temperament is no temperament. 3 ſtring guitar, fretleſſe , 3-limit iuſt intonation "Pythagoꝛean" pure fifths tuning is beſt. If you want 6 ſtrings, ſomething like a guitalele would be beſt becauſe of the ſhoꝛter ſcale length which would make playing fretleſſe choꝛds eaſier. But guitar literally means "3 ſtrings". It is the beſt foꝛ the hand of man. A fretleſſe tuned to 1 5 8 woꝛks well as does 1 3 5. As many as four ſtrings can alſo woꝛk like on the vkulele and maybe 5 ſtrings if tuned to all fifths. again with the much ſhoꝛter ſcale length.

[@Shaharazad221]

So this is why my guitar always sounds out of tune to me, no matter how perfect the intonation is. All it means is I'm correctly hearing the problems.

[@Gorilla.Guitar]

thats exactly right.. i got to realizing that most nut slots are nowhere correct in height.. i invested in stew-macs individual nut slot files & started correcting/replacing/making my own nuts. now my 1st position open chords all sound in relative tune. &.they stay in tune w nut slot correction..

[@ColocasiaCorm]

not sure thats a good use of the word schism

[@Gorilla.Guitar]

"musicologists".. i see what you did there, lol

[@A2Guitars]

It’s a genuine field. I worked with a harpsichord maker for several years who had his doctorate in musicology.

[@Gorilla.Guitar]

@@A2Guitars sorry, i thought you may have been referring to someone in particular..

[@elephantricity]

You see don't have perfect pitch, So I don't care if my guitar can't be perfectly intonated.

[@ArturBernardoMallmann]

Even more I understand why the use of equal temperament is so consistent and acceptable! Much people criticises, but it is the most generic and so the most reusable way to minimize the problem of different pitch intervals. Without the consistent mathematical solution and his imperfect notes fretted instruments as we know would be a mess to produce.

[@cillee997]

music is a fucking shitshow. well atleast this explains why i havent been able to tune my guitars for years