Tempo Ordinario in Bach's Music - An Introduction

Tempo Ordinario is a term I use quite often in my videos and if you have ever wondered what the heck it means, than this video is for you!
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[@rastislavbodorik]

More videos like this, please

[@Murilo9519]

Very interesting subject. I would appreciate very much if you did a series of videos exploring these topics. Thanks, Wim!

[@christopherstube9473]

I was just using my heartbeat for tempo ordinario. I guess it is better to think more of it. I really liked your discussion of the notation.

[@uttum87]

Yes please! I read a book about this waaaay back in 1979. I nervously mentioned this to my LRSM examiner before playing a note - fortunately he new about it :)

[@AuthenticSound]

:)

[@michaelnancyamsden7410]

Hard to find words for the understanding you present. Revisiting after approx 1 years of piano lessons... clearer and more valuable. Thank you.

[@jemith]

Yes, I would love more videos on historical tempi, particularly in the works of Bach.

[@michaelnancyamsden7410]

Interesting. Thank you for clear explanation.

[@AuthenticSound]

Glad it was helpful!

[@brendanward2991]

Great lecture. I like the informal setting.

[@ericmirza9497]

Superb

[@879korn]

The Public needs another Vinyl recording. Still loving your Pachelbel record.

[@josephonwuegbuzie4791]

Thanks so very much sir.. i will like more explanations

[@antoniavignera2339]

Grazie interessante la lezione riguardo il tempo ordinario.

[@EDPiaNo2021]

Thanks for the interesting video, incredible information!. looking for more videos in this topic, please.

[@HeHanrui]

Yes. please more videos on this topic! What would be the tempo ordinario for other time signatures? When I play Bach chorales, 60 for the quarter note seems to be just about right for most of them, but if they are in 3/4, then 60 is too slow in my opinion.

[@AuthenticSound]

there are a lot of details that affect that 60BPM, we'll make a serie out of this, I think about it

[@Clavichordist]

This is very interesting and please do more of these in depth discussions. These are useful as you have implied for other composers as well including Chopin, Schumann, and many others. As you know, I had some questions regarding this very subject a short time ago and this summary reinforces what we discussed perfectly.

[@AuthenticSound]

Thanks John, if you ask there is no way to refuse :)!

[@comtaar2245]

I have been looking for information about the *use* of Bach’s music, in the sense of considering an allemande or a courante as a piece that could be danced too. I would be very interested in content on that.

[@picksalot1]

Yes, many more videos like this one would be great! This video, perhaps more than any other, crystallized the meaning of the binary nature of the musical beat, and demonstrated its use. You are an excellent teacher. Thanks again Wim for sharing your deep understanding of what makes an authentic sound.

[@AuthenticSound]

Thanks! Binary unity, it keeps me busy lately, since somewhere it must be related to the use of the metronome as well

[@AlpamayoJoe]

Hello, yuo explain music very well. Please make more video on this subject. Sixty is the human heartnbeat ! This inspire you some thought? Many thanks

[@AuthenticSound]

heartbeat often was used as direction. Mersenne talks about it when he suggest to replace it by the adjustable pendulum

[@ghuinink]

i counted 32 circles of running around the church ;)

[@chielpiano]

Geert Huinink i believe in some traditions peoples walk around the Church to show devotion to God. i wonder if Bach also had a tempo in mind for that.

[@chielpiano]

@SteppenWolff100 Yeah or he got kicked in to play the organ

[@Monrealese]

I'm eating these videos up as a sponge! Can't wait for more in depth episodes.

[@johnerskine8367]

Thank you: that is so helpful. These instructional videos are a wonderful and (comparatively) easy way to learn this sort of material - which is obviously complex (and, for an amateur musician, quite challenging in some of its aspects) but really interesting and vitally important. As for the idea of a series of videos on this and related subjects: yes please!

[@tobiasstudtheol]

Very interesting video. I was not aware of the Tempo Ordinario until now but I was, in a way, using it. Mostly I use my analog watch to go by 60bpm for baroque music if there is nothing else indicated. Thanks for giving reference to your brilliant teacher whom I admired very much. I really appreciate his legacy. Menheer van Oortmerssen was one of the few interprets who really understood Baroque composers. I am quite familiar with his work, because I used his Pedal School for my organ lessons. My teacher was an US-American who studied with Harald Vogel and she was introducing me to the way of interpretation of both Jacques van Oortmerssen and Harald Vogel. I would really like to see more of your marvellous videos. Your work is highly appreciated. Thank you.

[@GianfrancoCavallaro]

I greatly admire your work and agree with the idea of "ordinary time". In my experience I prefer not to give fixed mathematical figures to explain the speed of execution, rather I try to make it clear, as E. J. Dalcroze said, that the pulse that every music has is like the heartbeat: it does not always pulse at the same speed! More video please!

[@AuthenticSound]

Thanks for sharing your thought Gianfranco! Yes, the heartbeat for a very long time was taken as a direction.

[@061mozart123]

Very fascinating and useful!

[@theskoomacat7849]

My favorite subject! Thank you for the video.

[@AuthenticSound]

great to read!

[@dantrizz]

this is a brilliant video

[@AuthenticSound]

thank you

[@musicalintentions]

Brilliant as always. I very much enjoyed this video.

[@Renshen1957]

Absolutely, would love more videos on Tempo Ordinario, possibly one translated into Korean Pianist for H J Lim. She plays the WTC 28 minutes faster than Schiff or Richter: at 1:20 minutes! Yes, the translation is a joke, however, so much is lost when one attempts speed through Bach's opus, similar to playing the Chopin's "Minute Waltz" in under 30 seconds.

[@Inbalsegevcello]

Dear Wim, thank you for your wonderful videos. Could you please share some reading materials, preferably written in the 17th Or early 18th Century regarding tempo ordinario? I always played the prelude from Bach’s first cello suite at about 60BMP and find it fascinating. Also, could you discuss the Beethoven piano and cello sonatas in terms of tempo? Thank you for your videos, they are wonderful!!

[@AuthenticSound]

Hi Inbal, thanks for watching. I'll do some videos including some readings of the T.o. promised! Am refocusing the channel over the summer a bit to not only talk on tempo research. You'll find lots of videos on Beethoven and tempo, this is a playlist to start : kzbin.info/aero/PLackZ_5a6IWVP1Nb_Zxr-RfFHX62Nz9iQ

[@Renshen1957]

Hi Wim, I remember seeing in one of the WTC manuscripts the term Tempo Giusto, which infers that by default, all other works in the WTC are Tempo Ordinario unless Italian terms were used, an understood tempi (dances, first movement of Italian Concerti in which the allegro is known). My organ teacher in his 80's (and me 18), he went with the geniune advice, find the most complicated passage (figuration, note values, etc.) in the work and used that to determine the speed of the composition as a method to modify tempo ordinario. He continued with a wonderful anecdote, about the argument in his church as to whether hymns (or chorales) were to be played fast or slow. He had replied, you play the fast ones fast, and the slow ones slow. Byron MacTavish, a wonderful man, however Martha Bowles my next teacher taught me more on playing the organ pedals in several lessons, than my former teacher did in six months. Both of my teachers had pedigrees of famous teachers and by coincidence, the organs at their disposal were Aerolian Skinners.

[@AuthenticSound]

Great to read you here! I believe, for as much as I know on the subject, that that's a good way of looking at it, also counts for Mozart, Beethoven etc: as L. Mozart writes: you'll find always passages that show you the original intention in tempo of the composer, those complex passages must still be understandable.

[@johncoleman7122]

This would be an example of the English phrase "the exception that proves the rule".

[@fernandoasuaje2398]

The change of background makes the experience of watching the video more varied and interesting. About the topic, it is as thoughtful as always, but a little bit of more visual examples (maybe colors highlighting ideas) might make it it more easy to understand. Keep up the good work, your channel is good. Looking forward to listen to that pianoforte in construction!

[@AuthenticSound]

Thanks for watching! You're absolutely right about the dynamics of the video, wish I could outsource the editing of them, it takes so much work, certainly adding b-roll. Sometimes, for the more elaborated videos the balance between prep-shooting / edit-thumbnail-upload is 30/70, meaning literally at least one extra topic got buried under the editing time. Not complaining here...it's a privilege to do!

[@bach-ingmad9772]

A good and interesting exposition of the tempo ordinario. It is always interesting to hear your opinions and research and more explanation of how to decipher the hidden clues and play pieces can only be a good thing. The background activity was a little distracting but listening without watching enabled better concentration. I think I get distracted too easily - probably why I never achieve all I want to!

[@stevekudlo1464]

Oh, yes, more video lessons like this!

[@fidelmflores1786]

Struggling to find tempi ordinarios for Mozart Sonatas...I had the dominant note value and time signature in mind but forgot all about the harmonic density. I think keeping the rate of harmonic change in balance -- not too fast, not too slow -- is the key. Thanks for the tip(s).

[@GiacomoPhilipp92]

Great channel. Thanks for your effort!

[@michaelreaper666]

Very interesting Wim ..many Thanks ...great video and editing ..see you in the next video .. :)

[@jeanpierrecarabas5508]

I am delighted that your youngest daughter can play next to the old, venerable walls .... that is so important - - and you know that too ;-))

[@AuthenticSound]

True... and I feel always better having my kids somewhere around

[@bartschepens1307]

Interessant onderwerp! Misschien is het prettig om bij de volgende video's de muziekvoorbeelden als aparte fragmenten toe te voegen in plaats van parallel met je verhaal. Dat maakt het wat makkelijker om goed te concentreren op het verhaal.

[@AuthenticSound]

is zeker een mogelijkheid!

[@ghmus7]

Very useful video...I was just looking at the Czerny ed of WTC 1 and I now realise I was misreading the Mm numbers, which seemed awfully fast. I see that this is the tackt. However, I value the fingering in Czerny's edition, and it seems historical, there being no substitutions and that is it is essentially 18th cent. Practice. I would like to have your detailed comments on the Andreas Schiff edition of the WTC.

[@AuthenticSound]

Great to read! The fingering of Czerny is great, but here he focuses a 100% on the piano of his time, not on the 18th century. Brahms even applaud Czerny for his fingerings!

[@ilfisarmonicistapazz]

Sorry for my ignorance: did Bach have notion of "second" as unit of measurement? Was there a metronome in that time or did he use a pendulum? And Scarlatti too? They thus had both knowledge of mathematics? Thank you for answering, I find this very interesting.

[@AuthenticSound]

not a single clue to Bach tempi surviced, yet he was embedded in a musical culture that is possible to be reconstructed.

[@Inventio13]

I often wonder if they just used their falling arm onto the keyboard (or thigh) to set the beat?

[@dantrizz]

I don't know if this is a relevant question but would the key signature. Of a piece affect the tempo at all? I only ask because i noticed a long time ago that the metronome marks for chopin waltzes are slower for the ones in minor keys than the ones in major keys. And given that tunings in the 18th century lead to different quality/colours in each key, that strikes me as a possible way in which it could affect the sense of harmonic denisty. But equally I'm sure in another video of yours you were talking about how even the 1700s there were already advocates of more equalised temperaments, so maybe this point is an irrelevance.

[@AuthenticSound]

if the character of the piece becomes more sad - as often is the case in minor keys- then yes, there is a correlation

[@fredhoupt4078]

Ok Wim, I have to ask you: how much caffeine do you and your wife give to your young daughter? (I assume that it was your daughter doing her paces around and around while you gave your talk.) So funny really, in a Monty Python sort of crazy way. Earlier today as I was listening to the BBC3 classical station on my computer, as I do every morning, I heard Pollini set his piano on fire when playing Chopin's "Heroic Etude" (I think it is called = Opus 10, #12). Normally, I wouldn't have thought twice about it, just enjoy all that testosterone. But, after listening to your many videos about tempo, I paid much closer attention. What was Pollini attempting to accomplish? From the sound of it, a performance that approximated a near heart attack level of tension and anxious energy. However, there was not a drop of heroism in his performance. I would never have noticed this (in my opinion) had I not become a fan of your talks and lessons. That piece needn't be played at such a speed, but alas, Pollini comes from the Horowitz acolytes group, where the only way to play Chopin is to set the piano on fire. At this point I think that your perspective on tempo should set us to thinking again about how fast "fast" should go. All of my comments here are about Chopin, but you know, many performers also make questionable choices when they come to the Bach keyboard canon. We have to think again about those speeds. Thanks to you, we will.

[@AuthenticSound]

Hi Fred, I saw that too :-)! Evelien is sooooooooooo crazy on horses, so she had a box with horse-tools, and she was imitating riding a horse around the chapel, of course, after a while, that turns in to running...! I'll do the opus 10/12 of Chopin soon, it is an amazing piece and I'm totally rediscovering it

[@ruramikael]

My daughter used to run like that, and she could fall asleep at the dinner table up till she was about 7 yo.

[@AndreBeckner]

Bach usaba Metrónomo?

[@KrisKeyes]

This video makes a lot of sense. However, I am wondering: does this apply to 3/4 also? What is Tempo ordinario for time signatures such as 6/8 12/8 etc?

[@AuthenticSound]

I will make more of these over time

[@TristanPianist]

Great video! It would be awesome to see more like this! I have a question about the Bach G major toccata BWV 916 tempo, I have listened to many recordings and find that it is played very fast but I’m unsure if that was Bach’s original intention. Any suggestions would be welcomed.

[@AuthenticSound]

That's a good example of a tempo ordinario, where the notation and character suggest an allegro mouvement, so here you increase speed a bit always starting from 'normal tempo'. First thought: between 76-80 BPM for the quarter note

[@TristanPianist]

Thanks so much!

[@nidurnevets]

The Shirmer's edition of the Bach Sonatas and Partitas for violin is edited by Eduard Herrmann. Until watching some of your videos I always thought that, as there were no metronomes in the time of Bach, Herrmann's tempo markings are probably his personal opinion as to how they should be played. He makes no mention in the Preface of how he decided on them. In the Preludio of the Partita no.3, Herrmann indicates a tempo of quarter note equals120, and many of the videos of well known violinists, past and present, do play it at about 120. I was wondering if you know how he arrived at those markings. Thank you for the wonderful videos.

[@Clavichordist]

In your case here, a quarter note = 120 is really one quarter note = 60, following the tempo ordinario and sadly there's no explanation by the editor as is typical with the old "yellow" books, aka the Schirmer editions. You are lucky if this edition doesn't have a lot of other engraving errors and "additions". There are some editors who had gone as far as to rewrite works because they felt they were better at it than the composers! Not a violin student, but piano student instead, my later teachers steered me away from the much less expensive, sadly, Schirmer books and on to the much nicer, and expensive editions by Henle, Peters, and others because of this.

[@AuthenticSound]

just on feeling, I'd say those MM are still meant metrical, but we should dive more in detail.

[@nidurnevets]

The do seem to play it just as marked in terms of 120 equals the quarter note. Here is Hillary Hahn at just about 120, a little faster kzbin.info/www/bejne/aHy8g5eIo9N1j9k

[@achenpigeon]

Oh yes, Wim forgot to mention but we are in the process of making a database of basically all metronome numbers in existence (with special emphasis on ones from the early 19th century) and possibly crowdsourcing the data. So it will be useful if you start saving the metronome numbers you have! :)

[@musicuploads848]

I think it is unlikely that Herrmann's metronome markings are meant to be read metrically, but in any case they are unlikely to be a representation of anything else than late 19th century ideals. We have recordings from within a few years of the publication of the score which are played at a similar, or a faster tempo than those indicated in the score (when interpreted as on tick per beat). The quarter note = 60, for the Preludio is possible, although unfamiliar, but for instance the eight note = 46 for the Adagio from the g minor sonata (which would mean 16th note = 46 when read metrically), strongly suggests that the metronome markings should be read as one tick per beat, not as a double beat. The slow tempo becomes violinistically unpractical due to the slow bow speed which is required. This of course tells us nothing about what Bach intended, only what Herrmann considered correct.

[@SiteReader]

Great lecture, Wim. After a little confusion at first, all became clear to me when you introduced the score and soundtrack of the F# minor prelude and fugue. Yes, the essential relationship of tempo and beat to the harmonic complexity and conceptual/emotional density of the piece. At warp speed, all of this is lost. . . . Perhaps you will demonstrate for us that small difference in color between the 50 and 56 beats per minute that you spoke of. BTW, what is that structure that forms your backdrop, and the running track for Sophie? It looks like a small church.

[@AuthenticSound]

Great video idea Larry! That is the oldest chapel here around, 15/16th century. I recorded regularly there last summer, had even a live event: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r3aVqH1rhNdqfsk

[@SiteReader]

Thanks, Wim. I'd love to see that video. . . Just out of curiosity: I found on Google that you live in Hechtel-Eksel. As my name is Hecht (German for pike fish), I'm curious what Hechtel-Eksel means in Dutch.

[@johncoleman7122]

@@SiteReader "Hechtel was first mentioned in 1160, as Hectela, possibly derived from hedge or hedge. The name Hectala figured in a deed of transfer from a farm, called De Briel, to the Abbey of Averbode. "The first mention of Eksel is from 714, as Ochinsala, the basic name of the hamlet of Hoksent on the river Dommel. Ochinsala probably means 'the residence of Oko': a contraction of the personal name Oka / Oko and of sala which means hall, residence (J. Mansion). In the 11th century Eksel is mentioned as Ekinsala and in 1153 there is mention of Hecsele, a possible contraction of agnis (magpie) and lauha (grove on high sandy ground) (Municipal credit)." --Dutch Wikipedia>google translate

[@SiteReader]

@@johncoleman7122 Thanks so much. I see it has little connection with my family name, despite the many cognates between Dutch and German. The first member of my father’s family arrived in Baltimore (U.S.A.) in the 1840s. They were Jews from the tiny town of Langenschwartz in Hesse. The nearest recognizable place (to me) is Fulda. Hecht seems to be a not uncommon name for both Christians and Jews in Deutschland. Perhaps it is the prevalence of the pike in the rivers and lakes of the region. But I have also read that it was sometimes assigned to Jews as a derogatory epithet, as the word Hecht can also mean a sharp or ruthless businessman-after the pike’s habit of consuming the other fish, I suppose. Which of the two it was in my family’s case is lost to history.

[@jasonniehoff9372]

Hi Wim, Really interesting video! I just finished reading the book you mentioned in a video, “The Lost Tradition in Music,” by Fritz Rothschild. Did you ever get a copy, what did you think about his theories? I also ordered his 2nd book about the music of Mozart & Beethoven, have you taken a look at that book? It would be interesting to know what Lorenz Gadiant thinks about that stuff, (if he has seen that book.) It would be great if you could make videos about some of Rothschild’s ideas about the unwritten rules having to do with the time signature & and note values, and how to use that to find the tempo. It seems like there is something there, but it is very complicated in his book. How accurate do you think his concept of doubling the time based on the notations is? What about the Italian tempo/ character indications, (Adagio, Allegro, Presto, etc.), what is the character or tempo of these? Rothschild’s ideas about Presto & Prestissimo seemed kind of weird, wouldn’t Prestissimo end up being way too fast, with his double tempo idea. Maybe instead of doubling the tempo is just faster? It is interesting he mentions the later study editions of Bach’s work, and mentions the tempi are too fast, but he must have been unaware of the double beat theory, because taking that into account, the study editions were actually right in line with his tempi. Could key choice have something to do with the affekt or tempo. It seems like Bach writes a certain way in each key.

[@AuthenticSound]

Great to read and thank you for sharing your ideas here! After that short video on Rothschild, I ordered the book second hand, but they sent me a wrong one, apparently they didn't have a copy, it was a mistake in their system, so the idea faded away. Lorenz has all books by Rotschild, to my (not so much) surprise. On Bach I believe he touched instinctively upon some basic elements, perhaps reason why the musical world responded so harsh to him. On Mozart etc, I don't remember what Lorenz' reaction was, I have never seen the book. Will see if I can find a copy, it still interests me very much.

[@jasonniehoff9372]

It is a really interesting book, he also mentions tempo ordinario. He goes into sources & quotes from the16th-18th centuries. He suggests that there was an unwritten code in the time signature & note values which was used to determine the tempo, in the 18th century. Also, if I understood correctly, that the time signature was thought of in a different way, than our current use. Closer to what you were explaining in that example from the old german dictionary article with an example from the renaissance. The time signature applied to the treatment of the note length in a bar, and not neccesarily just the basic pulse. He mentions augmentation & diminution to the note values, based on the time signature and the smallest note value. This theoretical stuff gets hard to understand though, will probably have to reread. Thanks again for making these videos, so fascinating!

[@SalseroAt]

Great video Wim ! Just a question on terminology: i read somewhere that the term "tempo ordinario" is only used for a 4/4 time signature. The "common" time for the other time signatures is called "tempo guisto". Is this correct or are there just different terminologies around ?

[@AuthenticSound]

If I am not mistaken, tempo ordinario is the 'ordinary'- basic tempo for a given time, tempo giusto is the appeal on the tast/experience of the musician to adjust the tempo according to the notation

[@SerLaama]

This is probably something that I should already know, but isn't the notation at ~6 mins notated differently than we would nowadays? The actual downbeat seems to land on 2.

[@rastislavbodorik]

Maybe it will be interesting to make video that explain tempo for every prelude and fuge from Well Tempered Clavier from this point of view.

[@AuthenticSound]

Will think about it! There is a link in the video (click on the "i" icon) that leads you to some older livestreams, dealing with details of Bach's wtc

[@BachFlip]

Hi Wim. Have you ever discussed the concept of 'Alla Breve' anywere in your videos? I understand the basic idea behind it, but some of the movements in Bach's organ trio sonatas have got me puzzled, for example, BWV 526 (Sonata in C minor). The third movement seems like a typical Alla Breve piece, with the beat in minims and rhythmic values predominantly not exceeding quavers. Fine. But what about the first movement? It too is Alla Breve but almost totally dominated by semiquavers. Hmm. A lot of recordings that I've listened to seem to treat the two movements with comparable tempi, in spite of the notation (so the semiquavers in mvt.1 are roughly equal to the quavers in mvt.3). So why the different notation I wonder. It just doesn't make much sense to me!

[@AuthenticSound]

I'll make a note of your question Chris!

[@eternafuentedeluzdivina3189]

Dear Wim: do you mind to play some Couperin, please? I know I've asked an impossible to play some Schelle's music -almost all of his music is lost, partially thanks to J.S. Bach. But I would like to hear you playing Couperin.

[@AuthenticSound]

I'll think about it! Though, as far as I know, it is more harpsichord music then clavichord

[@Losloth]

Do you think Scarlatti composed for and played the clavichord?

[@AuthenticSound]

Honestly I don't know, there are some books published elsewhere referring to the clavichord, but other than that, there has been done very little research to the topic!

[@corry7461]

Hi wim,although it’s out of context, I have a question for you. In Mozart piano works, how is left hand supposed to be played, when there are no staccato or legato marks? Should we see it as “a middle way between legato and staccato” or “It’s no important how you play it(free)” Listening to recordings...the second option seems more plausible, so Mozart probably wrote staccato and legato marks just when it was necessary? I don’t know if you get my point,I’m not native English.. Greetings from Italy!

[@corry7461]

Or the legato mark has mainly a “phrasing” aim,and the left hand should always be played legato? I am really confused 🤣

[@AuthenticSound]

bows are an interesting topic, legato and/or phrasing. Legato I believe is often meant in Mozart's music. Left hand, I'd say by nature have the first note or the accent note accentuated, hold it longer and adjust the others to sound present, but supportive for the melody as well. But do not hide your left hand

[@addeleven]

I'd love this to be true because of the watch logic (1 whole beat = one second), but a tempo ordinario of 120 DB just seems much too fast. All sources say that the tempo ordinario is calm or moderate, and definitely slower than Allegro (either somewhat of an Adagio or somewhere between Allegro and Andante). 80 DB is the perfect Moderato. I take the 4/4 Bach chorales at around quarter note 80/84 DB, sometimes a bit faster, sometimes a bit slower, but never as fast as 120 (and never as slow as 60). Taking the average of Czerny's WTC marks also gives us quarter note ca. 80 DB. As I said, I do want this to be true, but as of yet, I'm not sure it works out.

[@AuthenticSound]

Czerny is an important source to understand bach tempi, the only thing is, one must apply the whole beat reading to his Bach MM's and then the sky opens!

[@addeleven]

@@AuthenticSound You're right, that's what I mean when I write DB (double beat). [Addition! I take the 3/4 Bach chorales at around quarter note 120 DB, so that each metrical foot takes the same amount of time in 3/4 (one bar) as it does in 4/4 (half a bar), namely three seconds. If we take this principle and start from a tempo ordinario of 120, we arrive at quarter note 180 (or dotted half note 60) for the 3/4 chorales.]

[@ruramikael]

In Beethoven's WoO47, the sonata in Eb, the posthomous Haslinger edition has halfnote=69 for the 1st movement, eight note=108 for the 2nd and dotted quarternote=104 for the 3rd movement. This must be single-beat.

[@AuthenticSound]

don't think so, it almost certain is double beat, try it, also play the full 2d movement, even with a metronome to make sure you hold your tempo

[@ruramikael]

Interesting! A very slow allegro then (1st movement).

[@elijaguy]

Would it be possible to demonstrate more at the keyboard? So much explanation, so few examples, makes it difficult for me to follow.

[@AuthenticSound]

I will! Rethinking formats on the channel, this one is a very solid one in terms of production, separating talking and playing. I'll do kind of "'practical videos' as well, perhaps even live.

[@AuthenticSound]

here are a few playlists with demonstrations at the keyboard that might interest you: kzbin.info/aero/PLackZ_5a6IWVOz_S8TwDM9_jwTz9z2Bxc + kzbin.info/aero/PLackZ_5a6IWWJkqe2lVJtadpKmp03jUZS + kzbin.info/aero/PLackZ_5a6IWWhKAS9LzWC_NP3lzUsBVj6

[@elijaguy]

Thanks so much, I appreciate a lot. I am an amateur, 70 years old, classical music "from Bach to Brahms" is very prominent in my life, since childhood, and your ideas are putting me in a kind of dilemma, as by temperament I love fast tempi, but also very much into understanding the original frameworks, i.e., kind of creating a direct bridge with the composers, rather than immitating one or another performer. So my paradigms are being provoked, wich makes life worthwhile!. And the depth of your research and your engagement in the material are epic!

[@martinmoller5591]

There is a book I owe "Bach und die drei Temporätsel (Das wohltemperierte Clavier gibt Bachs Tempoverschlüsselung und weiter Geheimnisse preis)" by Rolf Mäser, Bern 2000

[@AuthenticSound]

Don't know the book Martin, am always a bit skeptical to titles mention 'secrets", since there were none!

[@fredhoupt4078]

I wanted to add another note to a discussion we had several weeks ago. I just found in my huge pile of sheet music something written by Faure for piano that has the craziest time signature. It is written Molto Lento, in "18/8" time. I cannot recall ever seeing such a signature before. It is from his "Nocturne #7, Opus 74. It also happens to be a long piece that lacks much sweetness, for lack of a better term. Pretty distended harmonies, not my favourite Faure.

[@murcoroegholt9435]

De verschillende opvattingen over tempi kunnen alleen verklaard worden door aan te nemen dat mensen de snelheid weermee de tijd verloopt anders ervaren. Het kan te maken hebben met de in elk individu ingebouwde klokfrequentie. Bij computers is die miljoenen tikken per seconde. Bij mensen 10 tot 30, afhankelijk van de leeftijd. Hoe hoger je klokfrequentie, hoe trager de gebeurtenissen lijken te verlopen.

[@AuthenticSound]

dat geldt echter niet voor de metronoom die vandaag even snel tikt als toen en tevens is er een limiet op wat wij mensen kunnen uitvoeren, een limiet die op 2 eeuwen niet kan veranderd zijn

[@ORMA1]

Dear W, may I write a mail in private for you? Thanks

[@achenpigeon]

Here is Wim's contact form! www.authenticsound.org/contact/

[@ORMA1]

achenpigeon thank you a lot!

[@achenpigeon]

You're welcome! :)

[@mikewhelan9561]

stupid question for you or anyone : is 1/8 notes =66 the same thing as 1/4 notes = 33 . Anyone ?

[@steffen5121]

Interesting that he is in disagreement with even great pianist as Richter here. Just watch kzbin.info/www/bejne/iJukgn-LZ5iem6s. I must say, personally I would play this piece in between at 80. But who knows. Maybe he is right with 60.

[@emmanuelsales149]

Bravo pour vos analyses ! Cela rejoint entièrement mon point de vue. Vous vous heurtez à des résistances institutionnelles et psychologiques, mais vous êtes dans le vrai