Beethoven’s Dazzling Orchestrations Explained

Composer Samuel Andreyev presents an overview of the orchestration of Ludwig van Beethoven’s Symphony n° 8 in F Major, op 83.
Recording used in this video:
Ludwig van Beethoven, Symphony n° 8 in F Major, op 83
The Philadelphia Orchestra
Eugene Ormandy, conductor
This video uses the Jonathan del Mar edition of the 8th Symphony, published by Bärenreiter.
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[@samuel_andreyev]

Do you have a preferred symphony? Let me know in the comments.

[@KSOLTS]

Probably, Shostakovich's 4th

[@alexandrugheorghe5610]

Mahler's 5th

[@AnyOldMusic]

I love Beethoven’s 8th Symphony. My favourite of his is probably 6 though. Favourite symphony altogether is a tough one to call… I like Bizet’s “Roma”, Bruckner 3 and 7… Mahler 5… Lutosławski 4? I’ve recently been captivated by Dvorak’s late orchestral poems. There’s some great orchestration in those pieces. One thing that caught my ear the other day was a rising figure, not too dissimilar to the descending motif you highlight first from Beethoven’s symphony. However, what I liked about it in recording was how it panned around the string orchestra from the Cellos on the right, through the violas and second violins, to the first violins on the left. Great video, really enjoyed it and took a lot from it.

[@ashleythorpe7933]

Mahlers 1st

[@Otto-tk1os]

Beethoven´s 3th ´Eroica´

[@w12337]

I never understand why Beethoven isn’t mentioned more often when it comes to the greatest orchestrators of all time. Yes he had less bells and whistles available to him than later composers who do get mentioned in this list, but if anything that reinforces my view that he’s in the top 5 even more. The first mvt’s of both the 5th and 9th symphonies to me, are simply unparalleled in their compelling nature and just how effective the orchestration is. The way he shifts through colours emotions and dynamics in such short instants with such unbelievable smoothness and precision, is something to behold. He is the true master of drama and movement in orchestral music. One can only imagine what he’d have written being given access to a modern full size symphony orchestra.

[@CloudyMcCloud00]

Stravinsky was once asked, what is good instrumentation? To which he replied, "when one is unaware it is instrumentation". Beethoven had no need to show off!

[@Richard.Atkinson]

The bass clarinet in that Nutcracker excerpt is also an ingenious choice.

[@noelleggett5368]

Beethoven’s odd-numbered symphonies get all the press, but my favourites are his even-numbered symphonies. The 8th is a polished gem.

[@katrinat.3032]

The eighth is an underappreciated symphony. And so is the fourth.!! which is absolutely joyous in my opinion. And I love the sixth, but that’s because it’s beautiful and I listened to it with my dad. I like erotica but I think it’s overrated.

[@noelleggett5368]

@@katrinat.3032 I don’t mind the 3rd symphony, but I find it more intellectually stimulating than sexually stimulating. 😛

[@jacksonelmore6227]

Would you consider making a video called, maybe: “Timbre guide” What instruments give WHAT color in WHAT range with WHAT articulation and dynamics What instruments blend? Which make things distinct? Which clash? So many, including me, are clueless about orchestration in any genre

[@samuel_andreyev]

It's a good idea but the problem is that it's such a huge topic that I doubt I could say anything useful in a video unless it were 16 hours long.. and then nobody would watch it ;)

[@tuttifrutti2229]

Berlioz, the colors, the timbres. Music is so transparent that it sounds huge but chamber like transparent at times

[@thaddeusdubois6209]

I know critics bash Beethoven often for his orchestration but I’ve alway found his orchestration fits his music perfectly. In other words, he knew how to orchestrate his musical ideas. I also find it interesting if one looks in books dealing with orchestrating one will find that examples featuring Beethoven’s music and orchestration out number any examples by any other single composer quite often. If he were such a bad orchestrator I don’t think that would be the case. My observations for what it’s worth….

[@lachenmann]

Thank you for mentioning the severely underrated 4th Symphony. It’s absolutely mind blowing, and I say that as a player, as a composer and as a listener.

[@samuel_andreyev]

The slow movement is one of my favourite things Beethoven ever wrote!

[@DeflatingAtheism]

It sounds to me (as a listener and not as a player) that the fast movements are especially challenging for the string players.

[@Acujeremy]

I think the only Beethoven symphonies not on the level of all his other ones, is the 1st and the 8th. The 8th is amazing but something about it feels unfinished to me, and yeah the 1st is also amazing, but I feel 2-7, and 9 are beyond human! I love following the prose of the 6th while listening to it and visualizing landing in this village and all the people.

[@LMR72]

@@Acujeremy The eight is my favorite and was also a favorite of Beethoven 's

[@Acujeremy]

@@LMR72 Can you show me the quote that shows Beethoven claiming the 8th is his favorite? Why is that one your favorite of all of them?

[@toddkoehn4961]

Beethoven's 6th. My mom bought me a recording when I was 10, so I grew up with it. In my college music theory class we were tasked to choose any melody and alter the chords to make it our own. I chose the Shepherd's Song from the 5th movement.

[@katrinat.3032]

Same here. Are used to listen to it with my dad. It’s just has such a calming effect on me, the sixth symphony.

[@paulwellings-longmore1012]

What an amazing topic and presentation. And what an amazing blink rate Samuel has ! 100 years ago no one would have doubted Beethoven's genius at orchestration, he innovated so many techniques and liberated so many instruments and gave them a real individual and often virtuosic role.

[@ex_orpheus1166]

The celesta + piccolos + horns combination from Ravel's Bolero is the best orchestration of a celesta IMO. That passage sounded like a pipe organ to me the first time I heard it.

[@TheRealGnolti]

Really excellent tutorial--and yes, I was surprised that you chose Beethoven, a composer I loved very much when I was young, neglected for decades, and have been rediscovering with great delight. I could not put my finger on what makes every single one of his symphonies a masterpiece, and orchestration may be the answer.

[@dariocaporuscio8701]

Great video. Now it seems to me a bit more clear what Varése and early Jolivet mean when they talked about Beethoven as the to first composer to apply in his compositions "treatment of sound masses" and "projection of sound in space". It always seemed a bit vague to me. I also appreciate the huge technical improvement of the videos and I wish you that this stylistic change can brings your channel to a wider audience

[@jeffreydeitz2682]

Thanks for your analysis. My all time favorite, hands down, is the second movement/episode of Scheherazade. Once the solo violin stops singing we here yet again another bassoon solo, followed by higher woodwinds beneath which the strings echo the melody so lushly I want to take a time machine back to my youth and study violin,

[@Pretzels722]

Always a good day when Samuel releases a video

[@bryanryan4504]

Just discovered your channel. Beethoven is bar none greatest composer in all of music history. I love his sonatas for piano. I'm always working on one. Also a genius of music colors and nuance and harmony is debussy. Greatest composer of modern classic

[@Smudge4199]

Thank you Samuel, your videos are helping me through a really hard time right now. I appreciate your insight. Thank you

[@samuel_andreyev]

I'm very glad to hear that.

[@zerois2801]

Legit one of the best channels for classical discussion

[@88tongued]

Love the way you think, e.g., distinction between orchestration and instrumentation!

[@Unibabble]

Just want to say I enjoyed this explanation - really interesting. The ideas go beyond just classical orchestration too; thinking about contrast, stratification of registers, different blends, and ways to subsume or differentiate harmony lines; all these ideas can be applied to music of all genres to make them more interesting. Great food for thought - thanks!

[@JohnFackenthal]

Thanks!

[@samuel_andreyev]

Thank you! Much appreciated!

[@aronhidman1]

I always thought Beethoven was a great orchestrator. And partly for some of the reasons you give in the video. This is great! Oh and my preferred Beethoven symphony would probably be number 3.

[@EduardQualls]

I spent a good part of my final two years as an undergrad reading Beethoven's manuscripts and his conversation books (as a Music and German major) and heartily agree with your sentiment of his genius for orchestration, using the limited means available in late Classical, early Romantic orchestras. It was a shock to discover Manfred Honeck conducting the Pittsburgh Orchestra in the 7th Symphony, Op. 92. Excitement forced me to stand up during the fourth movement and I could not but burst into tears at its close, thinking, "Thank you! Dammit! Somebody finally understands!"

[@julieconnard4372]

Wow, Eduardo, that's profoundly "right."

[@Quaristice]

What a treat to wake up in Bangkok to this new video! I’ve been spending the last week listening to his nine symphonies in multiple recordings.

[@marcopellegatti]

Fantastic video! Thanks for posting. Yes, Beethoven was a very surprising choice to talk about orchestration. Yet you fully convinced me.

[@mqrk4187]

Very much appreciate this in my incipient efforts in composition, Samuel

[@samuel_andreyev]

My pleasure.

[@CloudyMcCloud00]

Great analysis. It's one of my favourite Beethovens too (along with the fourth and the second); and that would be one of my favourite moments also, which I remember reading Stravinsky rave about in one of the "Conversations" books. I think Mahler must have admired it as well: bearing in mind the widely spaced (and otherworldly) dialogue between flute, solo horn and lower strings towards the end of the first movement of his 9th! I always thought it reminiscent of that bit from Beethoven's 8th.

[@callmeishmael7452]

The colour coding is brilliant. I can’t read music but I love your videos for your explanations and presentation.

[@JamesMDumas]

Grateful you talk about the chamber combinations of Mahler. He seems so intimidating, which he should be, but knowing he was more of a kaleidoscope makes him more approachable, and fun!

[@juankgonzalez6230]

Fantastic video. Really glad to see your production quality keeps improving, Samuel! Hopefuly success keeps coming your way

[@samuel_andreyev]

Thanks! I'm aiming for continuous, incremental improvement.

[@insight827]

When asked by his pupil Carl Czerny why the Eighth was less popular than the Seventh, Beethoven is said to have replied, "because the Eighth is so much better."

[@hjo4104]

His orchestrations usually have a bad reputation for being too simplistic or unadjusted, but, in fact, they are just extremely straightforward and not neccessarily visually appealing like those of other early 19th century composers, especially Haydn or Schubert.

[@Gusrikh1]

Very, very educational. Thank you.

[@Tylervrooman]

1, 8, 9 are my favorites, 6 gets an honorable mention, thanks for another great video! Also Beethoven was one of the first composers to write specifically for bass too, as a double bassist this makes me happy.

[@samuel_andreyev]

quite true, there are independent bass parts in the Trio of the 8th Symphony!

[@johannesbowman2194]

7:51 I agree. I've always loved the 4th & 8th symphonies

[@edgenovese]

Great instruction. Gonna go looking for your music. Thanks.

[@povertyspec9651]

10:51 So awesome

[@fulltongrace7899]

This was enjoyable for me, as I have never listened to Beethoven’s 4th or 8th symphonies. 7 has always been my favourite. How about a Haydn symphony, especially one of the London symphonies? 104, the last one eg.

[@carsonfarley2560]

Yes, Beethoven is an extraordinary orchestrater.

[@Acujeremy]

With all the amazing composers since Beethoven, such as in the entire Romantic Era, studying their whole lives since they were children, composing as their life's work, yet no matter how great they are, no matter how great their catalogue is, NOTHING sounds quite like Beethoven, which is proof, nobody can, or ever will sound like Beethoven and only Beethoven knew his magic secret!

[@samuel_andreyev]

so true

[@JacksTestimony]

Thanks

[@jayducharme]

That was very interesting. I could relate to your comment about kaleidoscopic orchestration, which is what I enjoy doing. I never before had a name for it though.

[@kylegordonmusic]

Great video!

[@madraven07]

Stravinsky’s opening bassoon solo in The Rite is a parody of Debussy’s opening flute solo in L’après midi d’une faune

[@riffcrescendo1740]

Thanks. Very informative.

[@hectorberlioz1449]

Berlioz was arguably the greatest orchestrator and far ahead of his time!

[@Metamario68]

I would appreciate if you could talk about Gustav Mahler :) Great video!

[@trithucvacuocsong]

,Wow I couldn't miss any moment while watching this video. It's amazing! May I repost your channel on the platform of Ganjing World? I will keep everything as is and include your channel link as the source. Thanks, dear!

[@samuel_andreyev]

of course.

[@Dggb2345]

Thank you.

[@EduardQualls]

BTW @14:03 -- Did you notice how close you came to playing the dance tune from _A Charlie Brown Christmas_ ?

[@VAMR-vc7xg]

You don''t have to persuade me mate. Beethoven has always been my favourite composer.

[@katrinat.3032]

I always felt LVB had a very specific sound. Now I never went to school for music. But there is just this blend of the strings alone, or the strings with a few other instruments in the woodwind and brass that make a very particular sound to me it’s quintessentially German.

[@AshShar]

Very nice and well made video…👏🏻

[@mirkoeinhorn09]

Great video even for non-musicians like me, who are always reaching to improve their skills as a listener (what will hopefully make them able to enjoy music like your own, Samuel, which is not always that easy without some musical knowledge ;-) ). Lately I really enjoyed the orchestration of Sibelius' 2nd, which I had not heard for a very long time.

[@gauriblomeyer1835]

I admire your interpretation. Music is actually beyond any wording. It affects our inner feelings and very funny happenings occur in our inner being . Some melodies come and I sing them as the aria of Pamina in g Moll announcing her end of life because her love is not answered. This melody is wanted and enjoyed constantly when singing it. How strange. There is something in me wanting my singing and when I follow this wish it enjoys it and let me feel this enjoyment. I would never tell this to a doctor of psychology because for these great personalities I show the beginning of madness or a new incurable disease and I will be kept as a guinea pig lifelong in one of their closed sanatoriums. So the essence of music may lead us into some sort of ecstasy. And this you can never express in words.

[@parmenides9036]

Awesome!

[@tribudeuno]

In Paul Hindemith’s The Craft of Musical Composition, he speaks about the creation of scales from the overtone series, and how this results in an unused group of vibrations that I believe - it’s been decades since I read it - that he called “the comma”. And this caused when used on a keyboard instrument a situation that the comma was hidden in the interval between C and C sharp. This made it so that a composer couldn’t modulate to distant keys. Papa Bach dealt with this by creating the Well Tempered Clavier, which made it so he could modulate to distant keys. But during this time, there was no such thing as enharmonic equivalents, i.e. C sharp/D flat, and when modulating between keys, you would be modulating into a key that had a completely different set of intervalic relationships that created a more dramatic shift in emotion… Then came equal temperament, and this dramatic shift in emotional quality was lost. Beethoven dealt with this loss by increasing the number of players in the orchestra, from the orchestra of Mozart of 40 to 65 members. He also included in a symphony orchestra for the first time the most powerful acoustic instrument there is, the trombone. I may be wrong about this, but I believe that Beethoven had 6 trombones of different keys in the 5th Symphony. This made the 5th Symphony the Rock music of his day…

[@tribudeuno]

I took Beethoven’s first movement of the Moonlight Sonata - the first 40 measures - sped it up from the original 60 bpm to 80 bpm, and by means of Logic Pro X’s synth voices orchestrated the piano piece. I added the rap in Spanish of the Mexican artist Lucressia Bravo, and the text to voice capability of OS X of selected quotes from the Tao Te Ching in Spanish. It is called Oda al Fin de los Fines… kzbin.info/www/bejne/sGjGYYhrn8uobM0

[@tribudeuno]

I took Beethoven’s first movement of the Moonlight Sonata - the first 40 measures - sped it up from the original 60 bpm to 80 bpm, and by means of Logic Pro X’s synth voices orchestrated the piano piece. I added the rap in Spanish of the Mexican artist Lucressia Bravo, and the text to voice capability of OS X of selected quotes from the Tao Te Ching in Spanish. It is called Oda al Fin de los Fines… kzbin.info/www/bejne/sGjGYYhrn8uobM0

[@omegaomtv]

To me Beethoven is the master composer of all time. There is no other composer, that moves the listener more. I ask you this question. If you could only listen to one composers music for the rest of your life, who's would it be?

[@xenasloan6859]

Hmmm, bit of an over-reach for some of us I think

[@carlrosa1130]

Samuel - I just subscribed to your channel. Can you please provide an in-depth review and analysis on Beethoven's 7th?

[@polystrophicmusic]

Fascinating and informative, as usual. It's pretty clear I have a long way to go in my understanding of orchestration. One thing though; it's my understanding that Debussy, an outstanding orchestrator, did compose at the piano and then colour it. Is this incorrect?

[@DeflatingAtheism]

Stravinsky was famous for composing at the piano as well, although I have no doubt he was hearing the parts in their orchestral roles from the very beginning.

[@jacobpapa2393]

Samuel - First, thank you for your channel and your music! I admire both very much. Second, may I ask: “Do you believe that certain styles of orchestration fit with specific pitches organizations (diatonicism v non-diatonicism)? For instance, I see that Stravinsky’s serial period is orchestrated differently than his Neoclassical and Russian periods (although all of his periods feature ingenious orchestration). Also, I could not see the orchestration that Schoenberg’s employed for his 5 Pieces for Orchestra working for a Mozart Symphony. Thanks in advance for your thoughts, and please provide the link so I can support you monthly, because I have been meaning to do that.

[@samuel_andreyev]

yes -- that is definitely the case. Orchestration is as personal as a fingerprint. It is not something that is added to the music--it is a component of the music itself. If you'd like to support my work, you can do so at this link: www.patreon.com/samuelandreyev

[@islaadele1212]

"Regardless of what you think of Tchaikovsky..." *eyebrow*

[@declup]

I have little knowledge of the history of composition, so I can't confidently identify any composers celebrated for their ochestrational talent. The following names, however, come to mind: Rimsky-Korsakov, Berlioz, Gershwin, Prokofiev, Copland. Am I right to think these composers are known for their orchestrations? Are there other names I should also associate with orchestrational ability?

[@declup]

Of course, I should mention Samuel provides a few examples in the video: Stravinksy, Mahler, and Tchaikovsky (as well as Strauss). (I'm a little disappointed with myself, actually. I should have been able to recall the range of colors in Stravinsky's 'The Rite of Spring' and Tchaikovsky's ballets.)

[@rickthomas6348]

This was a great breakdown, I still need a lot of work to fully grasp everything you are saying tho! 😂

[@samuel_andreyev]

Thanks, I strive to present my ideas in the clearest way possible. Any feedback is most appreciated :)

[@xenasloan6859]

Much too late in my 3rd-rate musician's life, I stumble across your words and finally understand why 50 years ago I fell in love with R.Strauss and loathed any Mahler..he sounded amateurish. Get it now - orchestral heterogenicity. Thank you from the depths....

[@AxmihaMeuSaco]

Beethoven? I heard Bernstein saying his orchestration wasn't all that good. That he (the conductor) had to ballance everything, trumpets sticking out etc. I always liked it, so I'm curious to hear your points. (Written before watching the video, yes).

[@markoslavicek]

Many had critical remarks about number of music parametres in Beethoven's ouvre, how orchestration was sloopy, how he couldn't write nice harmonies or nice melodies, etc. I have two comments on that. First, if they dug deeper into his works, they would find counter examples for any of such criticisms. The 4th symphony mentioned in the video is just one of those instances that beat the argument. Second, the critics of Beethoven are often not fans of Beethoven, which easily makes them biased. No beautiful melodies? One could apply the same reasoning to Prokofiev. But the thing is, Prokofiev loved to compose fast and exciting movements and focused on them in his music (and is primarily known for them) just as Beethoven loved to compose heroic music. It is the matter of personal preference, character, and style. Anyone who says Beethoven _wasn't able_ or _didn't know_ how to write melodies, and then uses the slow movement of the 7th symphony to prove their point, completely misses the fact that this movement is intended to be a funeral march, not an Italian arietta. One would expect that it is crystal clear that the repeating tone in the "melody" merely serves as a fundamental stasis for the changing harmonies in the lower register, which are supposed to be in focus in the passage. Equally so, such critics often ignore the sheer existence of Spring Sonata, for example.

[@DeflatingAtheism]

Bernstein was being an edgelord in an era when iconoclasm was the order of the day.

[@AxmihaMeuSaco]

@@markoslavicek Agreed. I was a jazz musician and Beethoven to me, like Samuel points out in the Kenny G video, "it all sounded the same". After studying and learning he became one of my heroes. People say perfection doesn't exist, but I would say Beethoven reached it in many instances. His violin concerto blew me away so much it took me weeks and a lot of hot chocolate to recover.

[@markoslavicek]

@@AxmihaMeuSaco Violin concerto, another great example of nailing all music parametres: beautiful melodes, creative harmonies, experimental orchestratio and form (inclusion of timpani in soloist kadenza).

[@AxmihaMeuSaco]

@@markoslavicek Yes, AND, as a jazz musician I would even say, "swing", in the deeper sense - i.e. not just rhythm. That "wrong" note (D# on bar 10 - 1st mov) instantly reminded me of the jazz (long gone) world. Humor, wit etc. The man was just something else. It's a bit weird to talk about his orchestration, because it is inseparable from the rest. He's one thing, bang, no separate parts. One whole thing, and I think that's what Bernstein meant. if you take it apart, all the parts are made up of nothing much, but together it's a miracle. I think that's what he said, and adoringly so. (Not to cast aspersions on the great Leonard).

[@BrianOxleyTexan]

What scorebook are you using in the video?

[@samuel_andreyev]

it's in the video description

[@topologyrob]

I’m much more of the Cage/Feldman approach and am very enamoured of an object of beauty and love sentimentality, not agreeing that there is something lesser about it

[@povertyspec9651]

Beethoven 3, 4, 5, 9; Bruckner 7, 9; Glass 9

[@James-wf8nu]

Orchestration has struck me as something especially central to your music

[@CFDavid847]

What’s wrong with Tchaikovsky?

[@skeptical_Inquirer200]

Not everybody admires Beethoven's orchestrations: "The gigantic figure of Beethoven stands apart. His music abounds in countless leonine leaps of orchestral imagination, but his technique, viewed in detail, remains much inferior to his titanic conception. His use of the trumpets, standing out above the rest of the orchestra, the difficult and unhappy intervals he gives to the horns, the distinctive features of the string parts and his often highly-coloured employment of the wood-wind,-these features will combine causing the student of Beethoven to stumble upon a thousand and one points in contradiction. Nikolay Rimsky-Korsakov. Principles of Orchestration / With musical examples drawn from his own works

[@bentleycharles779]

6

[@katrinat.3032]

Serious question here. There’s a video with Leonard Bernstein where he talks about how bad Beethoven’s orchestration is. I’m like what?? I just don’t understand how someone can make such great music and still be considered to have bad orchestration. Maybe we’re judging him by today’s standards?

[@samuel_andreyev]

I would have to see the video to understand exactly what LB was saying. But in general terms, he certainly was not ‘bad’ at orchestration!

[@honeyinglune8957]

7, 3, 9, 6, 4, 8, 5, 1, 2

[@truBador2]

Leonard Bernstein accused Beethoven of being a bad orchestrator.

[@belindadrake5487]

BEETHOVEN IS GOD!🎹👑✨🌟✨

[@fingerhorn4]

Actually Stravinsky did NOT like Beethoven until much later in life, and he often commented that Beethoven's orchestrations were banal, conventional and entirely lacking in imagination or innovation. It was only very late in life he began to apparently appreciate some of Beethoven's late Quartets and Piano Sonatas and he enjoyed Beethoven's problem solving where classical form is concerned - an area which did not concern Stravinsky at all in the early "three ballets" period. Personally I find Beethoven's orchestrations utterly lacking in originality and find Mozart and Handel, even Haydn, more creative in that department. Orchestration was never even considered an art until after Brahms.

[@donkeychan491]

Yes, I feel exactly the same about Beethoven (and Mozart, Handel and Haydn). All the best orchestrators are surely from the modern era; although in reality very few are really great at it - Debussy, Stravinsky, Prokofiev (maybe), Mahler, Berg, Britten (e.g. late operas). And by "great" I mean that the orchestration is integral to the conception of the musical idea rather than being merely an afterthought, as it is with almost all symphonists (Mahler excepted)

[@erandeser5830]

True. 3, 5, 7 and 9 are so overrated !

[@Peter-x2exz]

Lots of flowery talk saying nothing of substance.