How Beethoven Writes for Orchestra

In this video I look at how Beethoven uses the orchestra. I tried to show a few tricks that could be useful to musicians, even if you're not planning on writing for an orchestra anytime soon. Mainly looking at Beethoven's 3rd Symphony
#beethoven #orchestration #symphony
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[@Tantacrul]

Was just reading how E flat major was considered the most 'heroic' and 'majestic' of the keys. Apparently, Beethoven's was so influential with this opinion, it became part of the soviet-realism checklist when assessing a new work. I just read that and thought of this video.

[@user-ez4or8ly4c]

Wow, that's probably how Shostakovich went against the expectations with his 9th symphony. And he could really be executed for writing it (happily, he wasn't).

[@orb3796]

@@user-ez4or8ly4c... he would not have been executed for that, that's silly, even for the most dystopic image americans have of the soviet union, that's just flat out ridiculous

[@orb3796]

@Don P I'm taking the compliment

[@philipmcniel4908]

@@orb3796 Well, he did take to sleeping in the stairwell of his apartment for awhile so that his family wouldn't have to be there when he was arrested.

[@mjutteau]

Mozart had figured it out. Just listen to his 22nd piano concerto

[@ze_rubenator]

I'm probably one of the most massive geeks in your audience when it comes to Beethoven, and I wouldn't mind just listening to you talking and illustrating his symphonies, especially in terms of orchestration which still is very hard for me, for hours on end. I know a lot of effort goes into analysing and making videos like this, and I just want you to know that it's massively appreciated!

[@ShuAbLe]

Make this comment mine aswell

[@mikegrossmanmusic]

Richard Atkinson has some really great Beethoven (and others) analysis on KZbin.

[@ze_rubenator]

@@mikegrossmanmusic Yes, he's great! And I've seen all his videos. Though they focus mostly on arrangements and counterpoint, which I also love, but it feels like there's a void when it comes to equally in-depth analysis of orchestration. In video form at least, I have no shortage of bone dry books on the subject.

[@androidwalle4932]

You did you get into my head? Brilliant video.

[@BryanMatuskey]

Was just about to write the same request. I could listen to measure by measure analysis of any Beethoven piece. All of his symphonies would be incredible. Either way, thanks for what you have already done.

[@Fetrovsky]

I love how your violin produces a full orchestra sound, timpani and all.

[@K.D.Meyers]

He must've downloaded the new update

[@Fetrovsky]

@@christianweatherbroadcasti3491 If you're not even Catholic, you're missing out on the sacraments and a whole lot of other resources Jesus left us. Instead of preaching you should get your stuff in order first.

[@Garrett_Rowland]

I feel like "How X Writes for Orchestra" could become a great series. Haydn, Mozart, C.P.E. Bach, Mahler, Brahms, Wagner. There are many great symphonists to choose from. There's even really nice ways to tie them together. Haydn learned a lot from studying C.P.E. Bach's style, as did Mozart. Haydn and Mozart had a ton of influence on each other. The later romantics took a lot of lessons from Beethoven.

[@K.D.Meyers]

Holst, Saint-Saens, Whitacre

[@jasonfire3434]

Rimsky Korsakov and Respighi!

[@scriabinismydog2439]

Ravel and Mahler!!

[@alejandrom.4680]

You can't exclude on of the best orchestrators, Ravel.

[@hamzahalasadulloh7779]

And of course Debussy

[@chris_outh]

Is the thumbnail a satire of the jacob collier thing with herbie hancock. If so thats brilliant.

[@DBruce]

thanks, I'm thinking of making satire thumbnails my thing. I enjoy making them!

[@chris_outh]

@@DBruce You should. I find them really funny. All the best David.

[@blenjamin]

I love these satire thumbnails, first the Nahre video one and now this one are great

[@Robbedem]

You could say they are *clever* ;)

[@oblux]

I really, really dislike Jacob Collier.

[@SignalsMusicStudio]

Hahaha amazing, I thought the video couldn't get better and then I heard your blues ending. Great job and nice guitar skills too!

[@DBruce]

Thanks Jake, but I think I need some lessons!

[@VisiblyJacked]

Very well explained! Would love to see you do a series on orchestration. Perhaps you could explain "why does Tchaikovsky always sound like Tchaikovsky?"

[@StephanieDouglassMusic]

Yes!!! And Rimsky-Korsekov!

[@domc3040]

To be honest just that whole "Mighty Five" style of 19th century Russian orchestration! There's something thrilling about how those orchestral pieces are arranged, always such clarity, even when the whole orchestra is playing ff, you never lose track of the tune. And yet it's still so distinctively Russian!

[@garysandiego]

magicwheel1 Yes! Russians, please. (Ah, just the musicians. You can leave the political theorists aside.)

[@bakedutah8411]

magicwheel1, the spelling, that’s why. Same reason “wrongly” is almost always pronounced wrongly but also correctly.

[@user-yc6vr8vn5j]

@@garysandiego and the writers!

[@spiewnikharcerskiwb6182]

"...and we can double it an octave higher in the clarinets." *ACCORDION*

[@ottodude555]

That outro made me a patreon supported holy shit it was the best "Whatever"

[@DBruce]

Gosh, thank you!

[@grigoridj]

I guess Beethoven is your Herbie

[@jaywbaker]

David - you had me at Beethoven. Would love to see more of pouring through the scores of the old masters and isolating elements like orchestration, harmonic analysis, structure, etc. +1

[@BryanMatuskey]

Jay Baker Hey had me at Beethoven FIRST!!! ...Seriously, more scoreness!

[@jasmineirizarry3620]

I love Beethoven so much including his music 🥰

[@oilersridersbluejays]

Thanks hun.

[@tubejtthomps]

the descending scale idea you discuss around 9:00 is very similar to the 'shepard tone' idea from the 20th century, appears Beethoven was also aware of it

[@brianbernstein3826]

love your channel Bruce. if I may, I noticed something really cool in Beethoven's 21st piano sonata, the Waldstein. if I'm not mistaken, this is the first sonata Beethoven writes on a more expanded piano: for the first time in history, F6 isn't the highest note on the keyboard. I believe A6 is the highest note on the new piano, and it isn't until the 23rd piano sonata the Apassionata that we go all the way up to C7. The reason I'm saying all this is, in the first movement of the Waldstein, we have only ONE note above F6 in the entire exposition, Before he shows it, he goes up to F6 over and over and over, as if to trick people into still thinking that's the peak. But then, a single measure of F#6 played at the absolute tail end of the exposition. The way Beethoven prepares and shows it is extremely dramatic. People hearing the piece for the first time must have surely known this piano was newly expanded, with many musicians in the audience knowing it went tip to A6 now. When the piece modulates to A major int he development, after all the constant scales shooting up but never reaching past F6 except for that one measure, people must have thought "okay it's A major, SURELY he will go all the way up to A6 now." But he doesn't, he instead goes back to C major. We get a single new note, G6, all the way in measure 208 - finally a new brand new note, and it's the next highest note after the F#6 Beethoven teased us with only for an instant. Are we EVER going to reach A6? Now listen to the full rising passages at measure 225 and 267 :) It gives the piece a whole new look, doesn't it? I've never heard anyone talk about this, I'd love it if you took a look (and decided to make a video ;) ) but just wanted to share it. Cheers!

[@flemingbock]

Ah the Eroica! My favorite of Beethoven's symphonies. The first movement totally obliterated any apprehension I had of classical music when I first heard it, launching me down a lifelong journey of musical discovery. I enjoyed your analysis, thanks for the great video!

[@MaestroTJS]

For breadth of conception and all-encompassing awesomeness, the first movement of the Eroica as a sonata-allegro has never been surpassed, not even by Beethoven himself. The Ninth's opening movement is pretty close, though.

[@flemingbock]

@@MaestroTJS Indeed, the 9th's first movement is another one of my favorites! Undeniably monumental piece of orchestral music. That and every time Beethoven includes a fugato in his symphonies.

[@MaestroTJS]

​@@flemingbock We could be here all day extolling the virtues of his symphonies, I'm sure. ;) The Ninth is a special listen. It's almost too much for just any time and it's kind of frightening being in its presence. Apparently the scherzo movement was partly derived from a fugue for orchestra that he wanted to do but never got around to doing in its entirety, if you didn't know that.

[@flemingbock]

@@MaestroTJS Interesting, I did not know this. Thanks for sharing!

[@InXLsisDeo]

The last movement of the eroica is out of this world

[@alexshih3747]

If you look at a lot of Beethoven's orchestral scores, you'll notice that what gives his orchestral pieces their signature loudness and "punch" is his generous doubling of chordal thirds. It creates small (yet noticeable) dissonance with the overtones of the root and the fifth. You never see this kind of doubling in Mozart.

[@augusto7681]

I read somewhere that we shouldnt double thirds, I think is only valid guitar and piano chords

[@alexshih3747]

@@augusto7681 It depends what you're going for. If you want all the orchestral instruments to blend well with each other, then it's bad to double thirds. If you don't want them to blend well, then double the thirds.

[@SetoNess]

So much valuable information! Thanks for sharing!

[@kjw79]

What a treat! Thank you. Would love to see more of this.

[@degzi]

Really fascinating. Please do more of this.

[@markchapman6800]

If I try to glean information directly from an orchestral score, I generally wind up a bit overwhelmed from the sheer volume of information within, so I like hearing from someone like you who can extract specific useful information like this.

[@alejandro52612]

I love this style of analysis!!!! Great job and keep them coming!!!

[@AnaSantos-jq4yi]

I am learning so much! Thank you!

[@filipfrodl3929]

Thank you so much! This was actually very helpful!

[@revenant235]

Bloody brilliant. More of these analyses please!

[@elitewithergaming4132]

@David Bruce Composer Thank you for that amazing video David was really well made!

[@skemsen]

This is absolutely brilliantly made! I could watch you show and explain like this with SO many of my favorite classical pieces!

[@michaelfitzurka5659]

always such a pleasure to view these videos. ty.

[@allesvergaengliche]

many thanks for the great video. the Eroica is one of my favorite symphonies and it was cool to learn some more about its orchestration.

[@matiasblacud]

I think this is my favorite video, to date, of your channel. Thank you :)

[@l1mmg0t]

excellent video. thanks for KZbin, and all the software makes this analysis possible. nice job.

[@enriquesanchez2001]

OH how I wished this went on for HOURS, David! Thanks for a delicious video!

[@lownotesinc1962]

Thank you for sharing your expertise! I really enjoyed this analysis of Beethoven's 3rd. I hope you do more analysis like this one, soon.

[@sweetsjelly]

World class educator - clear, concise & connected! Thanks again David :)

[@tommot7755]

Great content as usual! THX!

[@semisimau]

I like this, enjoy it and really appreciate your presentation! Thank you.

[@nathangale7702]

Thanks, I don't find a lot of orchestration analysis on KZbin, so this is a big help!

[@alexanderleemingfroudakis]

Such a great analysis and easy to follow! Thank you very much.

[@AmandaKaymusic]

Notable work. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, and skill at explaining in an entertaining way. Learning about Beethoven's orchestral chord structures makes listening more interesting.

[@janka1298]

You made one of the most exciting Beethoven analysis I’ve ever seen on KZbin! Great work! :) Would love to see more videos like this explaining orchestration fundamentals and analyzing classical masterpieces. Also it would be very interesting to watch how to compose for String Quartets, Piano + Strings and other typical instrument groups

[@adamrafferty]

Awesome video David, very enlightening!

[@ravindranathsaraswat]

One of the best contents on composition. Thanks a ton for mentoring folks interested in music in-depth.

[@oblux]

Brilliant! This video came up as a suggested watch on KZbin having never seen your videos before. As someone who has recently fallen in love with Beethoven's late quartets (and Beethoven's music in general) this video has spurred me on to go away and listen to the Symphony's properly - some great explanations here. Thanks.

[@oilersridersbluejays]

Thanks David! I've dabbled on a few of your videos before and now am a subscriber. I'm flattered that you think of me as clever! Enjoy all the videos I've stumbled across beforehand and will continue to enjoy!

[@newmancomposer]

Another excellent video David - keep going with this orchestration series, it's pitched just right.

[@reynerio3683]

One of the best videos about music in youtube! Great Job.

[@lynnlo]

Wonderful stuff as always.

[@adriantee5219]

I was just wondering if there was an analysis video on Beethoven's 3rd symphony when I came across yours. Amazing video!

[@musomaster9027]

This is made really well. Captivating and keeps your attention well done mate!

[@jannousaukema1666]

I cannot tell you how much your videos help young and self-taught composers like myself in our journey into music composition. Thank you David!!

[@louisvonbeethoven]

Very informative. Thank you.

[@claudefazio]

Very insightful commentary.

[@plonplon243]

Thanks a lot for this video, it answers a lot some questions that remained obscure for me...greetings from France Bruce!

[@JacobSchoenle]

Great stuff! I’d love to see more videos on orchestration like this!

[@naranjito9631]

Excellent breakdown really enlightening

[@jettmills2331]

I’m really glad to see that all types of art are appreciated online, and the communities interweave as they do. You mentioned Van Gogh’s painting 6:20 which was one of the Nerdwriter1’s recent videos showing that you all draw inspiration from each other, and it’s cool to have access to that kind of constant discussion online. Thanks for putting out great videos!

[@ethanpafoot3130]

I’m very pleased by this, my composition teacher got me to do this to all of the Beethoven symphonies. I strongly believe that this is one the most helpful things I’ve ever done to deepen my understanding of orchestration and composition. Great video as always!

[@TurkmanSouljah]

You are great! Thanks David

[@philb4462]

Really interesting video. Thank you!

[@makkanan]

Just found your series of videos. Subscribed immediately (and submitted my first comment on any KZbin). What an amazing series you have compiled! Thank you so much for posting these and pushing through the myths and stodgy arrogance that so often tar this genre. You’re a legend!

[@gabrielheiser]

Really helpful! Thanks.

[@ephjaymusic]

This was amazing!

[@gregphilipmusic]

Thanks that was terrific! I will be looking to see what else you’ve got

[@rogerhewettmusic]

Thoroughly enjoying your videos, David! Just discovered them today.

[@chipurBillWhite]

Fascinating. And I’m not a musician, composer, or theorist. I can’t fathom the genius behind what you explained, and how you deciphered and delivered it. Thank you.

[@user-uu5xf5xc2b]

thank you so much for these

[@geoffbakerhytch5623]

Like others, I greatly appreciate the time, effort, and skill you put into your musical analysis videos; this is yet another really thoughtful, informative, and educational piece of work: thanks very much, David.

[@MeiiioAssim]

I simply loved the video. Subscribed...

[@PaulWilkinsonMusician]

Another fabulous video 👍

[@lorki3]

Brilliant video!

[@deepaknair17]

Thank you David!!

[@gruforevs]

Please more videos like this! I am not at all interested in writing for orchestra but all of this information is definitely applicable to a lot of other styles of music.

[@keylead]

REally nice video and information. Thank you!

[@jimwigler]

This was awesome!

[@agento86]

I enjoyed this. Thank you for posting and your insight on this matter. Coincidently, last week I was just having a conversation with a friend on Beethoven's use of dynamics and "tutti" chords in orchestration. During our conversation, I referenced his piano concerto no.5 "Emperor" (also in the same key as the 3rd symphonie). The opening (Allegro) with that 1-4-5 in Eb Major is so "in your face" so..... Beethoven :). Epic! One of my absolute all time favs.

[@bgclo]

you are and excellent teacher! I couldn't read music let alone compose my way out of a wet paper bag, and I feel like I get it and I really appreciate your effort and skill at communicating music!

[@Physicks499]

HI Bruce amateur composer here. I really appreciate your work it is really helping me compose I am having a performance and the V and A soon. excited 😆

[@gj8683]

My favorite Beethoven symphony is the third. Very informative video!

[@FlorisVerbeij]

Great stuff!

[@scottglasgowmusic]

"tense subdued power".... YES! Such a great composition technique. Great observation!

[@patrickcollins9091]

Bravo well done, its always thrilling to see what turns might be made and choices in melodic movement especially in the context of orchestra! Would be great to hear that with Lutoslawski's works!

[@Robbedem]

It shows that Beethoven new all the instruments he was writing for. He made the score so it would fit each instrument. Something that is difficult to do and many (even some famous) composers struggled with. Chopin for example has written two concerto's, but he only really knew how to write for piano and it shows in the orchestration.

[@niccolopaganini4268]

Just imagine what masterpieces we'd get to hear if Chopin was on the level of for example Wanger regarding the orchestration

[@juhakaikkonen]

Great video! I hope you''ll upload more videos like this.

[@mirandaolsen2145]

Man, I absolutelylove your t-shirt!

[@HaydenofEverything]

"You can omit the 5th, but never really the 3rd" Mozart's Requiem, ending with every instrument playing D and/or A: *awkwardly exits the room (but in all honesty, the ending of the Requiem had nearly no input by Mozart, as the manuscript he wrote out didn't have anything past the Hostia, thus meaning that the last four movements were basically untouched)

[@zackwyvern2582]

omit the 5th and keep the third to preserve the tonal function of the chord, not necessarily in general

[@SayceBuckleyFreak]

your best video yet!!!

[@albertomuller212]

I'm just a music listener, buy anyway I enjoyed your explanation very much. And of course, I envy your acquaintance with Beethoven!

[@pablov1973]

Very interesting video, as always, you make music analysis very easy to understand and enjoy! Today, I love Beethoven "Eroica", but it took me several years to aproach to that symphony, my favorite will always be the 7th.

[@luigipati3815]

Absolutely brilliant lesson, thank you so much! I like the analogies with popular music. Obviously in pop music it is all simplified greatly compared to classical, but the concepts certainly are similar

[@simon54]

thank you, that was interesting and informative. the editing must have taken ages, a blinding job well done

[@karlosed]

great great video maestro Bruce!

[@DanGulinobass]

Funny and insightful mate ! Top stuff

[@christianmaltais]

Super useful. Thanks!

[@davemckay4359]

Its the space between the voices of the notes that create an airy breathy and real sounding hit.

[@neilwalsh3977]

Very well said

[@siryba]

I’ve been subscribed to your channel for some time now and the content you make is among some of the most informative, thought provoking and perhaps most importantly, practically applicable that I’ve seen on KZbin. Alongside composer/sound designer, Christian Henson’s channel (from Spitfire Audio), your video essays have opened up entire avenues and approaches to making music which I had not even known existed beforehand. Thank you for your time and energy in this. It really is appreciated.

[@DBruce]

Thanks, I subscribe to Christian's vlogs too and enjoy them.

[@minanes6549]

Beethoven was my first proper introduction to classical music, when I joined a choir to sing the 9th symphony, at 14 years old. It was like listening to a miracle, sitting behind the orchestra hearing and watching the music being made. I've always loved how Beethoven writes his woodwind passages, too.

[@ozilan7284]

More of this please!!

[@NVM_S]

I did learned a lot from this video thank you !

[@rorypenstock1763]

That phrase "Turning up the EQ" reminded me of a part in Beethoven's 9th symphony, 4th movement, in the syncopated "Alla Marcia" section. When the piccolo first comes in, it seems more like a brightening of the timbre than an added voice.

[@rorypenstock1763]

measure 351

[@jwallguitar]

Excellent video. 👍🏻