“Terrorist” Oliver Cromwell was not the 17th century Taliban | History Defended

Brutal dictator or the saviour of Parliamentary democracy? The slaughter of the Irish or brilliant military strategist? Historian Paul Lay joins Steven Edginton in the final episode of History Defended to discuss accusations against Oliver Cromwell. Watch the full episode above or listen on your podcast app.
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[@robinsanders5541]

The man was both great and terrible, what’s more important is that he was huge in the context of English history. The very question of the position of his statue is ridiculous.

[@liam2851]

Stalin's statue in Russia should come down, Cromwell's statue in London should come down. Nobody who instigated the mass murder of his own people should have a public or private statue, its just sick.

[@liam2851]

Having a huge role in the content of mass murder is not important , it's genocide.

[@davidfaulds2960]

@@liam2851 I disagree and I am no great fan of Cromwell, history is what it is and the context of the time MUST be the judge of Cromwell!!

[@liam2851]

@@davidfaulds2960 Cromwell was judged at the time as a murdering genocidal manic, that's why his head was displayed on a spike in London for 28 years. Hence why the first republic was abandoned and the monarchy restored as soon as he died in 1658. He was huge in the context of English history is the same way Hitler was huge in the context of German history and Stalin in Russian history. Being an apologist for a mass murdering war criminal to save English face is simply quite sickening frankly.

[@davidfaulds2960]

@@liam2851 Noooooo....His he was dug up hanged, beheaded and his head put on a spike,simply because he killed a King and it was by the Kings son I believe.

[@castelodeossos3947]

'It's probably wrong and anachronistic to judge a figure by our own terms.' Thus speaks a true historian, governed by intelligence and reason instead of virtue-signalling. As for his statue, as someone said, I barely notice statues, and certainly do not invest any kind of emotion into seeing a statue of someone from so long ago. The very idea is absurd.

[@liam2851]

Yea, after a hundred years, nobody remembers who the person was for sure. The vast majority of English / British people don't know the statue is there and barely know anything about Cromwell. This guy lived over 400 years ago after all. The statue is there over a 100 years now, its had its time, should go in a museum. Replace it with Churchills statue as the location is a much safer and secure place inside the place of Westminster. Still viewable to the whole world outside.

[@castelodeossos3947]

@@liam2851 Apparently, the present generation don't know who Churchill is either.

[@Toodyslexicforyou]

@@castelodeossos3947they don’t know what he did in Iran 😂 or did anyone until it all leaked.

[@randomobserver8168]

All good points- the Irish and others are free to excoriate him, others to praise him, I deny none the chance to identify with their history and keep it alive and be proud of it and hate their enemies, as I claim these rights for myself. But these feelings need not trouble us when discussing history in the round, even when we have a stake in it, and certainly not in media or academic contexts. Else those of us with Scottish and Irish blood must be perpetually at war with ourselves and others. Nor does it serve us to transfer 21st century moral standards, presuming they are even universal now, to past times. This is juvenilia. For the most controversial figures, like Cromwell who should be controversial in England too, if for different reasons, it is well to see the good and the bad. England should do that, and Ireland can hate his memory, and we are all fine. No one is putting up a Cromwell statue on College Green, surely.

[@eadeshogue6702]

Yes! He was a man of those violent times and delivered the English from Charles the tyrant.

[@michaelpettersson4919]

Statues should only be removed if they are raised by a regime with an obsession of raising them everywhere. I talk about personality cults here such how the Warsaw pact nations where filled to the brink with statues and busts of Marx, Lenin and Stalin. In thease cases a massive culling is in order but even then some should remain. As such, since Oliwer Cromwell are part of your history and statues of him isn't polluting the landscape, those that exist should indeed remain.

[@rudymatheson1415]

Even if they’re Stalin, Lenin etc they should still stand. They present a link to history that is soon to be destroyed, that is of course considering whether they are of historical value .

[@liam2851]

Russians defend statues of Stain, the English defend statues of Oliver Cromwell. There's nothing reasoned about this. Stalin and Cromwell instigated the murder of millions of their own innocent people, defending statues to these animals is frankly sick and mindless.

[@olgagerman4878]

So Cromwell is part of history but Mar, Lenin and Stalin never happened?

[@Toodyslexicforyou]

@@olgagerman4878yup. My dictator statue should remain but your nooo yours where evil. Honestly hypocritical don’t ya think.

[@nicholasmills6489]

Cromwell should keep his statues. He’s a figure from British history and he shaped it massively. Our leaders through history have not always been saints but saints don’t win wars or battles, or rarely influence nations. His influence will be judged and polarising. Despite his deeds, good or bad, he deserves his place.

[@Gill12283]

Absolutely right Nicholas. We should oppose these efforts to remove our statues

[@nicholasmills6489]

@@andapaya Yes I think that’s what the woke believe. Countries are shaped by the people of their time. Cromwell was a man of his time.

[@violets_in_bloom]

Putting up a statue is a celebratory act, not simply a commemorative one. Note the lack of statues for figures such as Hitler, and the fact that we still know all about the guy. Everybody deserves a place in the history books, this much is true, but statues are not there for education alone- They exist as objects of praise, symbols of what that nation is for or against. That's why so many monuments are dedicated to the fallen- Not because we are not aware of their deaths, but because we wish to honour them.

[@freeplex589]

@@andapaya stop talking rubbish

[@freeplex589]

@@violets_in_bloom Cromwell statue should stay

[@barryspruce6744]

Older Cromwell is a English hero , his statue MUST remain and we need some one like him now

[@Benbenshow3141]

of course statues, all statues should be kept. people who try to get rid of them just seem to be trying to make it appear that no bad things ever happened, or that those people never did any good. In the case of Cromwell, he may at times appear to have done good, and at others to have done bad, but no matter what Britain wouldn't be what it is without those events. His statue should obviously stay. Whoever is out there touting that he was the 17th century Taliban is obviously just someone trapped in an echo chamber and they dont deserve to have their ideas heard, since they clearly are unwilling to learn from others

[@Johnathon00790]

I agree, but we will see if a Bright Green headed nut job bring his statue down and has a Normal Person arrested for disagreeing, Great British History is now under attack by the bright green headed nut jobs who refuse to recognise Fact and Truth for example,GREAT BRITAIN was the FIRST COUNTRY to abolish slavery but people like lies because lies are more comfortable because lies can be adjusted to even partially fit in with THE TRUTH!

[@Toodyslexicforyou]

Maybe instead we could put of statues of great Britons instead of tw*ts

[@Richard-hv5hh]

My first time coming across Paul Lay and I am deeply impressed. Calm, erudite, articulate, open minded. Wonderfully transparent qualities. I shall seek him out! What a great interview. My personal view regarding statues is that they represent a bygone era and are not an essential part of our culture in terms of public display. In general I think they should be displayed in museums. They are indeed subjective and divisive if imposed in public areas and I don't think they represent an essential public need. I say this about any publicly erected statue. I would not have a problem removing all statues in public areas and housing them in museums.

[@liam2851]

Yea, Cromwell's statue like all other statues over 100 years, should be recycled into museums. Replaced by contemporary statues if such things are still required.

[@ohmy419]

THis was a period ater the INquisition, an age of book burning and papal aabsolutism.

[@derekbentley196]

Love Steven

[@davidfaulds2960]

To those who would take down Cromwell's statue.I am no great fan of Cromwell, history is what it is and the context of the time MUST ALWAYS be the judge of the way people of the era are viewed!!

[@niallmurray8654]

I come from an Irish background. It is well known that many Irish people do not have a favourable view of Cromwell. However I have never heard any calls for taking down his statue. I am from Manchester, there is a statue of Cromwell in the grounds of Wythenshawe Hall in Wythenshawe park. I have visited it regularly as I am interested in history. I think it is a boon to Manchester and I am very proud of my Irish roots and I was brought up a Roman Catholic. I say no to cultural genocide akin to the cultural revolution that went on in China. Also this man in the video is presenting Charles 1st as a progressive when he believed in the divine right of kings.

[@Asptuber]

I think his point is that the divine rights of kings at that time was a new and radical idea. One thing I wonder about re Ireland and Cromwell is whether through history he hasn't been a convenient demon for everyone? He is English, but he is also an usurper, so from an English POW he would be a suitable "baddie". Criticism of other perpetrators of atrocities might have been much more subject to censorship throughout history.

[@liam2851]

I campaigned for five years to have Oliver Cromwell's statue removed from Westminster. Boris Johnson in the end said no to removal. Oliver Cromwell was a a war criminal by the standards of his times and now of course. Bigot and evil proto-fascist and a favourite of Putin (look it up).

[@JAQUESDIBLET]

Any effigy of Cromwell was banned from within the walls of Parliament so he was relegated to occupy a space outside the houses of parliament . In my view it is a more befitting place because he is viewed by the public far more than if he was inside Parliament ,

[@comeyouspirits]

Statues are warnings, too

[@liam2851]

Very much so

[@michealferrell1677]

If we wish to continue in our understanding of history we will keep this and other monuments intact.

[@markaxworthy2508]

Has anybody here read "Cromwell: An Honourable Enemy" by Tom Reilly? It puts Drogheda in a different perspective as it was within the laws of war as understood at the time and practiced during the contemporary 30 years war in Europe. If a place had to be besieged for a long time, the living conditions of the besiegers in the open were so poor and associated disease so rampant that they could often lead to mass deaths among them - sometimes to the point that the siege had to be lifted. This was a problem for besiegers almost everywhere. Therefore, in order to induce a quick surrender and avoid such losses, the surrender of the defenders was immediately demanded on the understanding that they could march out with their weapons and flags to safety and the town would not be sacked. At Drogheda Cromwell demanded a quick surrender but was rejected. Thereafter, under the laws of war of the time, the defenders laid themselves open to siege, sack and slaughter. Cromwell was lucky in that a very quick assault was successful, but by then he no longer felt constrained to be merciful.

[@ebrimajallow9631]

Just because it was that time does not make it right

[@markaxworthy2508]

@@ebrimajallow9631 By today's standards that may be true. However, it was entirely normal by the standards of the time and both sides knew it.

[@geoffboxell9301]

Cromwell gave the option to evacuate and many civilians did. One of them was the mother of Sir Arthur Aston, the Royalist Commander. She, in turn went back into Drogheda with Cromwell's last offer and to try and get her son to surrender under good terms. Aston refused to surrender and the outcome was the raising of the red flag and the cry of "Havoc".

[@williampallom5856]

Remain without question and add John Ball (c. 1338 - 15 July 1381)

[@DC_92]

He was Alexander The Great in a previous incarnation. This is where his military genius came in.

[@jackmcnally9237]

See M'd. Cromwell is with him roasting !

[@dupplinmuir113]

The Irish Civil War started with a large-scale massacre of Protestants by Catholics in 1641, and the Protestants retaliated in kind, and this cycle of massacre and counter-massacre went on for eight years while Cromwell was initially a back-bench MP and later was involved in the fighting in England. However, the Irish are so desperate to play the victims that they blame all these crimes committed by the Irish on someone who wasn't even in the country at the time. Thus any Irish troops killed by Cromwell's forces in 1649 were war-criminals and richly deserved their fate.

[@michealferrell1677]

John Owen was a huge influence

[@Clipgatherer]

So Oliver Cromwell wasn’t a dictator. Maybe he was merely a “strongman”, to use a modern term for an autocrat.

[@samabrahams7687]

The interviewer was out of his depth and couldnt ask and good questions its a shame as the guys answering seems to know the topic and can got into details .

[@DaniyarAlibayev]

British Judeo-Masons acted smarter than French...

[@liam2851]

?

[@liam2851]

What?

[@DaniyarAlibayev]

@@liam2851 French destroyed monarchy, and with Frederick The Great, helped Franklin to create USA empire. Adolf was very angry with Deutsch Lands...

[@Poriecross]

Thumbs up

[@casperdog777]

His statue must stay where it is - no question ! A good balanced discussion of Cromwell. The view of Ireland has to be seen in the 800 years of English colonialism. Cromwell wasn't any more bloodthirsty than many other men of his time. He wasn't a war crimes perpetrator in Ireland. To understand Cromwell Paul Lay is correct; his religion and faith is crucial to understand the man.

[@lurkingarachnid7475]

mass murderers should not be idolized

[@HypervoxelRBX]

keep crying

[@michaelpettersson4919]

That however is no reason to remove or deface statues. Let the statues remind people of their history. Idolisation doesn't come into it at all since those that idolise the person can do that with or without the statues. Scrubbing history is not a good idea.

[@nicholasmills6489]

Does that include napoleon for the French. Or Stalin for Russia. Unfortunately I take a view that these people from history shaped a nation. Cromwell is a character in time that polarises, I believe he was a religious zealot and killed many people. Despite this he keeps his statue. It’s unfortunately true that it’s not just good people that shape history but they must be recognised.

[@liam2851]

Cromwell was certainly a mass murderer, much like Putin.

[@TheSnoopindaweb]

I met a far distant relitive in S/W Mt. That dosent like to admit it ☘☺👀❕ G-G.

[@ericdoran24]

Your right , Cromwell was a nice cuddly kind of man who loved his king , and was very tolerant of other religions especially the catholics . He was particularly fond of the Irish and his way of showing this was slaughtering thousands of them. He also sent around 25000 Irish men to the west indies. What a man.

[@liam2851]

Yea, Oliver Cromwell was a proto-fascist of the very worst kind .

[@robertclive491]

Irish people when they're asked to treat a subject with even the slightest bit of nuance:

[@a.hoctavius5848]

I wouldn’t call him a terrorist. He certainly wanted to replace the dynasty of England and Scotland with his own dynasty (hence naming his son his heir, and continuing to use the crown as a symbol of authority)

[@masoud786]

removing all the fun from life seems like today's talibanism. but if he wasn't strict with all those rules, today, UK wouldn't have been a monarchy and it wouldn't have cost the state alot of money spending on the royals, while they enjoying all the "free wealth" where the hardworking people are devoid of.

[@paulbaker2054]

Yes his statue should remain

[@pato2200]

Cromwell was england's Stalin. A ruthless wielder of power often used to purge his former allies. Cromwell created the most repressive theological state in English history. The civil war might have been portrayed as a fight for democracy but it resulted in the most absolutist head of state in English history. "Why did he not take the crown?" Why did Julius Caesar not make himself king? "I am not king but Caesar." Caesar knew king was the most dangerous word in Rome. It is similar with Cromwell as he not only had no royal lineage but realised his authority could not rest on the kingship but on a new concept of "lord protectorate".

[@CompelledUsername]

That’s why Washington was such an anomaly in history. He was expected to do exactly the same.

[@liam2851]

Yea "Oliver Cromwell was England's Stalin" - in a nutshell

[@DC_92]

@@CompelledUsernameThey’re the same soul.

[@iamjustsaying4787]

He as another stooge for the bankers.

[@cromwell.is.awesome]

I have spent hours upon hours, days upon days studying this period of history. I am also Calvinist, so none of this is new to me, also the idea was posed that Cromwell was framed for the Irish massacre. And the closest sources blaming him came.100 years after the actual event. Catholics have a history of being greedy and power hungry, Cromwell fought for Protestant rights when we had none and were massacred by the Catholic Church and branded as heretics. Oliver Cromwell put God before himself and he is certainly in heaven, I don’t know if I can say the same about the debaucherous monarchs. Cromwell also had a liking to music and did not ban operas, actually, the first English opera was created when the protectorate was in power, and Cromwell and his family and the rest of his court watched it and enjoyed it. Composers included Mathew Locke, John Playford. And poetry and education even thrived during this time. Oxford university even flourished under Cromwell’s rule. Whereas when Charles II came into power, disaster ensued such as the plague and the London fire, as well as the disgusting excuse of entertainment that is called Restoration Comedy. He was a normal man with a loving family who overcame the rich tyranny of Catholic loving monarchs. And do we have monarchs now? No! So I don’t understand why people are defending the monarchy so badly when we dare to even ruled by a monarchy.

[@thehound9638]

Long live the King! 👑🇬🇧

[@victorydaydeepstate]

Parliament ultimately won the power struggle with the Crown proving Cromwell a man ahead of his time

[@stevehitchman9035]

trying to change history won't work ever

[@DavidWilliams-hv7so]

I think that the interviewer has an agenda about Cromwell. He comes off anger and his last question is very telling of his position.

[@ronharris7335]

Only idiots destroy statues, whether they portray good, bad, ore indifferent people they show a part of human history which our future generations are entitled to know about..

[@liam2851]

yea, the agenda is Oliver Cromwell was a mass murdering bar steward.

[@mechmanspain4155]

Yes it should stay

[@liam2851]

Yea, Oliver Cromwell's statue is ideally placed and the very best reminder of why the the Irish and the English should never ever share a parliament again. Its such a powerful statue in that sense. Irish people speak in hushed tones, when discussing that statue.

[@Deepfake820]

Yup. Us English are indeed God's chosen people. 😊

[@liam2851]

Cromwell was a butcher, Gods executioner. Thinking your Gods chosen people leads to butchery everywhere, Putin, Stalin, Hitler. Cromwell is England's Stain.

[@JAQUESDIBLET]

There are only a few of us Then . There's hardly any English left in England now

[@cromwell.is.awesome]

Long live Protestantism

[@danrebekahcollins4640]

Let it stay!

[@liam2851]

No, let it go, he was a monster, the English Stalin

[@garyrumsby3330]

How can anyone from today judge a person from yesterday your today will be someone' else's tomorrow

[@williamsullivan3702]

🗑 buck Fritain

[@anneeq008]

He was, simple as

[@scoobydont5981]

Butcher

[@heycidskyja4668]

Hero of liberty and against absolute monarchy.

[@liam2851]

Completely evil butcher

[@barryspruce6744]

The Irish people in the Castle thought that no one No one could brake the Castle. Cromwell gave every one the chance to leave , and the broke the walls down. With Gods help

[@liam2851]

Cromwell is a stain on English history, a monster

[@artkahn888]

Cheap documentary

[@matthewlawrenson7508]

Interesting....Perhaps always controversial. A non British historian is unlikely to offer such a rosey view but knowledgeable and helpful

[@liam2851]

Its almost a national duty for British historians to cover for the evil Oliver Cromwell, except for the best and most respected British historians that is.

[@DavidAmis18]

He was a traitor to King Charles I!

[@totallynotalpharius2283]

Yeah well at least Olly kept his head

[@liam2851]

He beheaded Charles I, a regicide. The worst traitor.

[@R08Tam]

Of course his statue should remain

[@pammienakh]

Protestantism has caused much harm politically in the world.

[@tribalque2232]

Cromwell is not Taliban. Taliban will go down as freedom fighters. Cromwell is the opposite.

[@wiseonwords]

@tribal que - Only an insane Islamist would spout such patent BS.

[@tribalque2232]

@@wiseonwords im not even a muslim. That country is 100% muslim. There is no surprise why it does not want US there