Tesla Powerwall 2 was it worth it - 2 years on in the UK in Dec 2020.

Update July 2022: this video has been updated as it's rather outdated. See here: • Our total costs for ou...
Our Tesla Powerwall 2 has been installed for 2 years 2018 - 2020. I look at the costs to install, the Powerwall's performance and statistic, how we operate it and how much we have saved. Will it pay for itself? I cover any issues and did we make the right decision. Does a Powerwall work in the UK? Will a home battery get a return on investment?
Update:
@15:04 mm:ss should have been times 24 months, not 48! This means the saving is £36.78 per month. So £57 - £36.78 = £20.22 per month for the cost of the Powerwall! Thanks to @bonbon who pointed this out.
The savings quoted were only ever correct at that point in time the video was uploaded. If we look at current energy prices in the UK (April 2022) they have doubled/tripled, then the savings will be dramatically reduced. Energy prices are only ever going to be going one way. A new video can be found here with newer savings and costs: • Our total costs for ou...
I have not included the cost of the solar installation for 2 reasons. First, the 2011 4kW solar install had paid for itself with FiT payments by Dec 2018, the same month the battery was installed. Secondly, the video was about the Tesla Powerwall 2 battery and was it worth it. Whilst it's part of an overall system, it was this component I was concentrating on.
00:00 Intro and system components
02:39 Tesla Powerwall 2 configuration
08:06 Costs to install
11:00 Powerwall 2 performance
13:43 Cost Savings (maths error see description)
15:55 Issues
18:39 Was it worth it?
🔴 Octopus Energy £100 (shared) referral link: share.octopus.energy/sky-gupp...
🔴 Setup:
4.0kW solar array, installed Sept 2011
- 3.8kW SMA Sunny Boy inverter
2.34kW solar array, installed Oct 2019
- 2.2kW SolareEdge inverter
Tesla Powerwall 2 (Gateway 1), installed Dec 2018
Kona 64kWh EV, delivered 1st July 2019
Tesla Model 3 AWD Performance, delivered 28th Sept 2019
myenergi eddi, installed July 2019
myenergi zappi v1, installed Dec 2018
myenergi harvi x 2
myenergi hub
myenergi iOS app
Landis+Gyr E470 100mm SMETS2 smart meter installed July 2019, removed on 30/11/2020
Kaifa MA120 SMETS2 smart meter installed on 30/11/2020
Based in Rushden, East Midlands, UK
🔴 Subscribe for free KZbin: kzbin.info?s...
✅ Recommended playlists:
Tesla Powerwall 2, solar and EVs
kzbin.info?list...
✅ SUPPORT ME:
Patreon / johntisbury
✅ FOLLOW ME:
Instagram: / johntisbury. .
Twitter: / johntisbury
Website: www.johntisbury.co.uk

[@MrAryindia]

This panel can put out close to 100 watts kzbin.infoUgkxOqI2yqX0XVrhR2BMJciTWrHJpG8FhJyg when positioned in the appropriate southernly direction, tilted to the optimal angle for your latitude/date, and connected to a higher capacity device than a 500. The built in kickstand angle is a fixed at 50 degrees. Up to 20% more power can be output by selecting the actual date and latitude optimal angle.The 500 will only input 3.5A maximum at 18 volts for 63 watts. Some of the excess power from the panel can be fed into a USB battery bank, charged directly from the panel while also charging a 500. This will allow you to harvest as much as 63 + 15 = 78 watts.If this panel is used to charge a larger device, such as the power station, then its full output potential can be realized.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you

[@johnd4273]

Great deal of information John. With the cost of batteries coming down and electricity prices ever increasing these are additional variables which over a 10 year period would needed to be considered if and when someone was looking at installing the TeslaPowerwall. The killer are the winter months for my solar PV from October - February. This October and November being the worst since I had them installed since 2002. Keep the interesting video's coming.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching. Agreed in the longer term home storage battery looks like a better financial proposition. Like most technology Moores Law comes into play. The Winter months can certainly be make or break months for solar, so unpredictable.

[@edwardowen3212]

Thanks for this John! Really enjoyed the breakdown using figures and the lack of any bias. Keep them coming!

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Edward, good to hear.

[@Barrybristle]

Thanks John. Your detailed analysis has helped to convince me that a Powerwall 2 should be a worthwhile addition to our Solar/Eddi/Zappi setup. I have just signed the contract but will have to wait until mid-January to see it in operation due to delivery constraints from TESLA.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Peter, exciting news on your Powerwall, not so exciting on the delivery timeline.

[@MrCrazyplayer]

This is a carefully crafted video that has lots of information for anyone who is considering a similar setup! Thank you John! I love all your videos!

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for saying that, it means a lot as for me these videos take a long time to prep, record and edit. Thanks for watching.

[@gio4447]

@@johntisbury Hi John, after following your experience I would like to install 18/20 kw of solar panels and 2 powerwalls 2 of tesla, so 27kw total, do you think I could totally disconnect from the network? Knowing that I have an average daily consumption of 13-15kw? I live in central Italy, I would like your opinion .... Thanks bye

[@johntisbury]

@@gio4447 hi Gil thanks for watching. I would suspect that for the majority of the time you would not be needing any grid pull. The key thing will be what the annual solar generation pattern is like year round. You may struggle in the winter months to generate enough from the solar to top up the batteries and run the house. However, that said you'd not be pulling too much from the grid I suspect.

[@richardteychenne3950]

Thank you for a very informative, honest and well structured video. Much more convincing than the hype from suppliers.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching Richard, glad you found it usefulI. I appreciate your comment.

[@michaelmcclafferty3346]

Thank you so much for such a well explained and informative video. I’m thinking of buying a Tesla Powerwall 2 and your video is the best by far of all those that I have viewed. Thanks again.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you Michael for watching and glad it was useful.

[@IsThisAvailable550]

Thank you for the video John. That is good honest and valuable information for someone like me, who is still thinking about what to do (in the UK). It's been equally advantageous reading the responses to this video. It seems you have a good following/community, and you do respond well to comments. Thank you.

[@johntisbury]

My pleasure Larry, thank you for watching. My channel is slowly growing which is great, I respond to every comment as I feel that's important. The responses are often as insightful as the video as people give their differing perspectives and experiences. Makes for a great sharing of common ground, and sometime not so common ground.

[@SimonAmazingClarke]

Excellent video, you put a lot of detail into that. As the prices of these installations continues to drop they will get more and more economical. So in addition to a 4 bedroom house you have three kilns. They must use a lot.

[@johntisbury]

We only have one kiln on at a time. They use 5kW maximum on their longest programme. Which is about about 50 pence worth of electricity at cheap rates. Thanks for watching, glad you enjoyed.

[@richardcjay]

Great video and thanks for your open and honest stats. It seems that the financial benefit is slimmer than I thought 🤔 but I do appriciate that there are associated benefits beyond just the financial ones.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Richard, glad the data was helpful

[@devonfuse]

Thanks John, I used information from your earlier videos when deciding to install PV, Powerwall and Zappi. No regrets and we also have night storage heaters to add to the mix, but it still makes sense.

[@johntisbury]

Good to hear thank you. Glad to hear you have no regrets that’s the outcome you want.

[@kevinhill1851]

Nicely presented. Thanks very much for this insight into solar/power wall usage in the UK.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you Kevin.

[@matthewround7836]

Great video John. Enjoyed watching. However with the cost benefits quoted, even if the Powerwall lasts much longer than the 10 year guarantee your looking at 25+ years to pay back. That said, with energy prices having soared in recent months to 25p+ per kWh this comes down somewhat. Even so, I think Tesla need to significantly reduce the price point of this system to ensure its financially beneficial in the long run.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Matthew. Payback will depend on how you use your Powerwall and the import/export approach you take. As you point out the savings will only be right at the time of filming with electricity prices doubling, and most likely going up again in October in the second Price Cap review by OFGEM the return on investment will be sooner.

[@carlosoruna7174]

25 year payback is not worth it. And the issues of disposing and replacing the battery.

[@johntisbury]

Batteries are being 100% of raw material recycled. Payback period is just a forecast it’s likely to be much sooner. However, everyday I get benefit from it and reduce my reliance on the grid.

[@carlosoruna7174]

@@johntisbury payback is actual numbers. I figure it at 35 years. Ya all elements are organic. Some more toxic than others

[@johntisbury]

All the elements are naturally occurring and 100% recyclable. Unlike the alternative fossil fuels that are burn once.

[@EnsoTB]

As 2 retired individuals, 21,000 kWh is quite a large energy draw compared to an average household. As an individual who leaves home to work 4-5 times a week, I imagine that if the power wall can cover 26% of your usage, it could potentially cover nearly 100% of mine as I use around 7000 kWh and am usually home in the evenings when panels wouldn’t be generating. Very informative and useful video! Thank you

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching James. Good pick up on individual usage, everyone's energy needs is different, as you point out we are not a typical usage case. We do use a lot of energy. 2 x EVs, 2 x glass kilns, 1 x 13kW battery all adds up over the course of the year. It does sound like a Powerwall would indeed cover your evening usage based on your data. Food for thought perhaps. Glad it was useful.

[@akshaymorzeria8637]

That intro lol and then the matey, best thing I’ve seen. Very informative thanks

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching

[@nickchapple593]

Thanks for sharing your information and data John. Well appreciated

[@johntisbury]

No problems, this video is rather out of date now as it will be 2 years ago since upload with the data being 2 years before then. There's a newer video I've done which covers all our costs and savings across our whole setup, rather than just the Powerwall.

[@AndyRyan]

Very informative John. Thanks. It would be interesting to factor in the increased value of the property into your savings/return calculations. Of course equity value will change over time, but I would expect this to have quite an impact.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Andy, glad it was helpful. Hmm, not thought about doing that. We would have a circa £200,000 profit if we did that. On 30/03/2001 it was £196,000 now £400,000 based on sales in 2019.

[@chihuahuadachshund4264]

My whole house is solar powered…. The nearest grid is about 5km away😔. Being off grid devalues your house. But I love it.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for this input. Very interesting and to be honest I’d love to be in your shoes.

[@roberthenderson83]

Thank you for an interesting video mate !

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Robert.

[@rckeesing]

Hi John - thanks very much for making such an excellent and helpful piece :)

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching Christian, glad it proved useful for you. I'm planning to make an updated version with newer energy rates, plus correct the maths error where I put 24 months into 1 year, rather than 12!

[@michaellupton1593]

Thanks John, very informative presentation and helpful as I am considering all things Solar power for my house. Thanks again.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching Michael. I'm about to upload a new video titled along the lines of 'So you want solar (and a home storage battery)' in the next couple of days which also may be helpful to you.

[@daubentons1]

Hi John, One point not being made is how different the situation can be with a larger solar array. Most probably can't fit a 10kw array in the space available like we can but it makes a substantial difference to the figures. It also costs little extra at the fitting stage to add a few additional kw of panels. My main reason for looking at these is power cuts. There is nothing more frustrating than freezing during a winter power cut because your solar energy disconnects and all you need to power up the boiler controls is a few measly watts.

[@johntisbury]

Good point, yes indeed.

[@rogerphelps9939]

The regulations as they are at the moment make it rather difficult to have a grid connected system that is rated at more than 4kW. I have a 4kW system for which I get FITS at the original rate so I am paid rather well for that. Any additional capacity would have to be connected past the generation meter but as I understand it, since the whole thing would exceed 4kW (or 16 amps at any grid voltage) different more onerous regulations apply. Is there any way around this?

[@G6EJD]

Another well presented video John, I enjoyed watching it. I think you should have used a NPV (Net Present Value) calculation on your initial PW outlay to give a much better indication of its true value by taking into account what the initial outlay would be worth in say 10-years - buying power reduces each year due to inflation and the same applies to the value of system savings too. The problem with all of these calculations is; as you rightly mentioned, that the number of variables is so high that it really does make it quite impossible to work out. I think even if someone applied a highly rigorous analysis of all variables then they would not be able to summarise the benefits. I do all this for ecological reasons rather than anything else.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching David, you bring up some great points. Interesting approach using NPV, I'd not thought about that. The Powerwall is not a tangible investment and those that think they will get a ROI in the short to medium terms will be disappointed. I perhaps didn't stress enough the ecological benefits and feel good factor in the video, giving just a small nod to using 26% less grid energy, plus we're not using grid power during peak demand periods when electricity is expensive and potentially dirtier to produce.

[@protectiongeek]

@@johntisbury David makes an important point. If you're considering the capital cost over a significant timeframe like 10 years, you really should factor-in that £57 this month won't have the same value in 10 years' time! I agree that a lot of people installing solar batteries are more motivated by environmental benefits and a limited degree of energy independence than having a very sharp pencil when it comes to the -exact- cost down to the last penny.

[@geoffnewman3109]

Really need to consider the potential income the original capital cost would deliver if invested as an alternative. What if it had been in TSLA shares?

[@johntisbury]

If I had invested in Tesla shares I would be better off financially for sure. However, I'm no stock market analysis, pundit or toe dabbler. Not my thing.

[@123chris0]

I'm lucky to have a battery that enables me to use 100% of my solar production. Not had a usage bill in years (apart from standing charge). Very informative video, thanks for putting it up 👍👍

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Christopher. Impressive to run from solar and battery with no bill for years. That's many people's dream.

[@theofarmmanager267]

That’s our dream (see my longer comment). Can I ask for some details of your house (size I presume) and what your system is plus anything that you have done to enhance your ability not to buy from the grid? It would be particularly great if you know of, or used, an independent expert to guide you through. Thanks .

[@JonRodgers77]

Brilliantly presented, well explained and very informative, great job.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you Jon, appreciate your time in watching and commenting.

[@reginaldpotts2037]

except all the figures quoted are complete bollox

[@dombaker6210]

Can you do a breakdown of the cost of the system including the cost of both solar arrays over their life span, the gateway and the eddi etc and break down the whole system cost into the savings for a final figure.

[@johntisbury]

Hi Dom A great question. I'm pulling together that very video at the moment as a number of people have asked for it. Thanks for watching. Cheers John

[@JamesPrenter]

Great explanation and very helpful. Financially not so good as payback is probably over your own lifetime. For those concerned more about carbon emissions and self reliance it may make sense but to me at age 73 its a no go scenario.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks James for watching and you make a fair point about payback. Most home battery solutions will struggle to give a payback. Not aimed at you but I do think that perhaps we're a little too programmed to think that way due to sales and marketing spiel of products. Double glazing stating savings on energy bills, insulation companies stating savings on energy bills, solar panel companies stating savings on energy bills. Whilst some of these products do and will get a return on investment it's not guaranteed or it's a long payback period. How often do we expect a return on our investment when we buy a new car, a gas boiler a new bathroom, kitchen or similar. Just my thoughts for a Sunday morning! LOL As you point out those concerned with their carbon footprint and wanting to be self-reliance and cut down on grid usage, then a home storage battery makes perfect sense. As a return on investment, not so much.

[@sahhull]

@@johntisbury I buy a new car when the old one is uneconomical to repair. That's why I'm driving a 20year old van with 450,000 miles on the clock. My boiler and bathroom are the same. If it's working, it's staying. The last time the bathroom got a refit was when the bath cracked. The kitchen was fitted over 40 years ago. It still works.

[@seanobrien518]

Very informative John, thanks for posting

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Sean.

[@kathleenadams6421]

Very good explanation, I appreciate the work put into this video.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you.

[@Jaw0lf]

I have now had mine for just over 1 year and at the same time, I doubled my solar as East / West location, adding a further 4KWh solar to the front of my home. The main save is that my use of electricity is now 89% night use, which has been a massive change from around 33% before the extra solar and Powerwall2. So not only is there saving as you have worked out, but it is at the lower rate, therefore extra savings. Using your sums, I used 16,000 KWh for my home during the last 12 months, 27% Powerwall 2 from my Self Powered Lifetime. This is saved from my expensive daytime tariff of 19.35 pence, so £835.92 in the first year. This multiplied by 10 is £8359.20 meaning I have saved over my initial purchase price of the Powerwall 2 and I expect the savings to increase as electricity prices increase. For extra information my Solar generation was approx 10,000 KWh. Great video and i must admit thinking of adding a second powerwall 2.....

[@johntisbury]

Great to hear about your savings. As you point out, electricity prices have risen and will continue to do so, shortening the payback period.

[@Jaw0lf]

@@johntisbury Thanks John and as mentioned, you have had extra savings when the powerwall fills at cheap rate and lets you use that instead of paying the high rate as in my nightrate offset figure. My daytime rate is approx 3x that of night, so again that would be a large saving! perhaps that is something you could add in to your calculations..???

[@johntisbury]

This is very true. It’s very difficult to record how much electricity is used at cheap rate to charge the Powerwall without downloading the data from the app. I don’t feel the need to record and collect even more data.

[@just1boronut]

A really informative video, I think I grasped most of it, however the one question I would ask is.. How much money are you saving by using solar, combined with electric cars ? With the current fuel crisis, this reason alone would be a major factor in deciding on installing or not. Is money saved on vehicle fuel included in your figures, or is that just another bonus.?

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching. I'm working on an updated version of this video as I didn't include some savings, e.g. the electric cars as you pointed out. With the current electricity and fuel prices we are seeing even larger savings than expected or forecast. The original video was purely about the powerwall battery and how it have performed. The updated video will cover all components in our setup and overall savings.

[@pwilliams1995]

Great video presenting an end-user perspective of the market leading domestic electricity power storage device.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching

[@siksik6]

Great video John! Loads of detail but easy to follow and understand. Subbed.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you Mark, that's great to hear. Thanks for the sub too. I am about to record a new video that looks at our whole system, the total costs, the savings and payback. Including EVs and so on. Should be live very soon.

[@siksik6]

@@johntisbury awesome! I’m waiting delivery of my EV, and considering getting solar / Zappi and (probably a bit later) a Powerwall so this is essential learning! 👍

[@JeremyMacMull]

Very interesting video and more interesting in how different our stats are. I have a 7.7 Kwp system with gateway 2 and powerwall 2 however one hell of a lot more power generated in 12 months (9Mwh) as such the maths changes a lot. Secondly the Gateway 2 has allowed me not to buy UPS's for my servers and arguably saved well over its cost. I reckon pay back in about 9 years but to be honest its not all about the payback is it. sods law though ive had no outages at all during the 14 months ive had my system.... well apart from me testing things.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Jeremy our stats are very different aren't they. The larger solar array is certainly catching more sunshine and would make a large difference in terms of savings. Totally agree about return on investment not being the main driver. With the Gateway 2 at least you have peace of mind if and when you have an outage - that's always a bonus. I looked at getting ours upgraded to a Gateway 2, but just not worth the cost tbh.

[@salokin1]

Have you tried an "artificial" power outage by flicking a grid master switch? Would be interesting to confirm whether the switching to Powerwall backup is quick enough for your servers not to be affected.

[@roadbikeman]

Amazing thanks for sharing this I’m looking into getting one! I noticed you calculated based on 2 years being 48months :-| so the 18.39 a month may be half that? It’s really interesting to me though as my family are using so much energy and I have the long range tesla using even more!

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Darren. Yes I made an error on the calculations, there's a pinned comment to that effect. This was posted in Dec 2020 and the position on electric prices has changed considerable. I'm working on updating this video, however the short outcome is that it is almost certainly worth getting a home storage battery now! I cannot see electricity prices going anywhere until the green levies are removed by 2028 and the gas/electric pricing structure is revised to better reflect production efficiencies and carbon footprint.

[@antoinekurukchi283]

I have a very similar setup. Tho I've been on agile for the past 2 years and I keep my system on cost saving. The other benefit of the Powerwall (other batteries as well) is to raise the generation limit, as I'm only allowed to export 3.7 kWh. So can have a 6.2 kWp solar array with limiting inverter and just getting the simple DNO certification (well that was how it was when my system was put in). For me, I use the Powerwall to avoid the 35p peak but can still use electricity to cook etc. There's no asking the rest of the family to turn things off constantly etc. I still do ask but it's not critical. Great vid and good to see similar experiences to what I'm seeing.

[@johntisbury]

This is a great point with the battery, especially the Powerwall which can delivery a constant 5kWh. We cook during peak often with the electric hob and oven both on, with our base house load we are just under the 5kWh. It's a no brainer. Thank you for watching.

[@terryrigden4860]

Very interesting and thorough, thank you. You have saved me a lot of money

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching, glad it was useful

[@pieter1102]

It should be possible to look back two years and find out what tariff you would probably have been on if you hadn't had the solar/powerwall system. So you could just calculate the baseline cost using that tariff for the two year period. If variable rates would make it too complicated (and not knowing the time of usage), you could use the "average cost" figures that must be around somewhere. Compare that to what you actually paid and you have another estimate for the savings that you can compare to the number you presented in the video.

[@johntisbury]

Good suggestion Pieter, I'd not thought of doing that.

[@fontane007]

Great video and very interesting though I have to say it doesn’t blow my hair back on wanting to go self sufficient. For me I want a way to be much closer to 100% self sufficient, so it seems costs for solar panels and batteries need to come down much more before we really start to get a big take up of these green energies!

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Wayne. Yes price point is a stumbling block for many, prices are coming down, plus the recent Spring Statement of 0% VAT will be an incentive.

[@bernardallen7878]

Well done your video is exactly what we need to hear. It would be interesting to hear from you on the charging of both cars and how you optimise and factor this into the costing.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching Bernard. In terms of both EVs I cover the detail of this each month in my monthly solar update video. These videos cover monthly mileage, how much charging with public and home chargers. The split between solar and grid for home charing. The cost of charging. We don't do too much mileage a year therefore our grid pull for car charging is very low. Over the past 12 months we've average 150kWh per month from the grid in car charging which would be at the off-peak 5p/kWh = £7.50 per month (we had some time on Agile and some on Go, but for ease of calculating I've used the Go tariff).

[@alexandermccarthy]

Excellent breakdown of the many overall bigger pictures relating to solar and the Tesla Powerwall 2.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you Alexander for watching.

[@alexandermccarthy]

@@johntisbury I am contemplation the installation of a solar array with Powerwall 2, so your video is very timely.

[@dizzyikea]

Hi John, 21,000kwh seems like a lot (or is that both years still 11ish). I have a large 3 bed house and a Tesla M3 i use less than 4,000 kwh a year. I can't do any man math to install a battery as much as i would like one for the hell of it. Since getting solar i have spent much more time making sure i preserve power when needed and as such my annual bill for electric is around £300. For me proper management of passive electricity use has been the biggest saver nearly halfling my bill. At £300 a year it would take around 25 years to break even if a PW2 reduced my bill to zero which it would not. It costs nothing to drill down into your usage of power and reduce it, i think this should be the first step for many people.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Darren for watching. Yes, the 21,221kWh home usage is over 2 years. Solar generation was 11,644kWh. 100% support looking at reducing usage, it's the same with making the property as energy efficient as possible with insulation, cutting draughts, LED light bulbs etc. That's the first thing I did before getting the Powerwall and additional solar, and I'm still doing it. During lockdown I cleaned behind every radiator in the house and the fins at the back which collect lots of dust and reduce the efficiency of heat convection. Amazing how dusty and filled with fluff they were, our heating is much more effective now.

[@bigpete1986]

I guess the glass kiln will take a fair bit of power as will 2x electric cars! Have you thought about an air source heat pump for heating and hot water?

[@james160987]

We have a 4 bed, and looks like 4500 a year , we both work full time, average units are about 350-400kwh per month, what things have you done that reduce your energy consumption, i cant think of how we can get ours down lower, ( wife works from home at the moment but hasn't added much ) all lights are led, and are smart so there often turned off automatcily by schedules at night etc, Did solar make a big difference to your bills?

[@johntisbury]

@ James Sturman we have done quite a few upgrades to reduce our energy consumption. Mainly to the fabric of the building to reduce heat loss and improve the insulation qualities of the house. I've covered these points in later videos, one example here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hofPe3ylj6eLpZY

[@johntisbury]

@Peter Kent apologies for the slow reply, only spotted your question when diving into the comments to answer another question. We have looked into ASHP but there are too many constraints and compromises to make it work financially and aesthetically. I did a video on the thought process here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hofPe3ylj6eLpZY

[@jno5]

Another great informative video John; I’m in the process of getting planning permission and would like a full setup just as yours....but the upfront cost is an issue, how much was your total system (Solar, Powerwall 2, Gateway, MyEnergi Systems etc) and how much has the whole system saved you; if you take what your system has produced and what you’ve used in total and workout what your saving / costs would be (at your average electric rate).....how long will it take to get you outlay back in savings....?

[@johntisbury]

That's a tough question to answer in the comments section. I feel a video is required to cover this topic fully. Thanks for the suggestion. Just as a tease, our total outlay for all our equipment is £27,880. However, if you were buying again today you could easily knock 40-50% off that figure.

[@jno5]

John Tisbury - The would be a very useful and informative video if you did decide to do one. Earlier in the year I had an estimate of around £8000 for a 5kWp SunPower system, so add in a PowerWall 2 and it would be about 40% less....

[@johntisbury]

@@jno5 I will certainly do a video about it for sure. I've already created a folder on my computer for it! The benefit of scale in manufacturing has really made an impact on the price of solar panels. Our original 4kWp system was from 2011 it was very expensive back then.

[@iantyrer1155]

@@johntisbury If you had the solar installed in 2011 you would have surely received the best FIT rates at the time as did I in 2012. Having upgraded your system with extra Solar panels and the Powerwall have you been taken off those excellent FIT rates? I'm wary of upgrading in any way as these original FIT rates are guaranteed for 25 years and index linked.

[@johntisbury]

I do get the gold plated FiT payments, although I’ve not included them in the savings shown here. When we added more solar in 2019 we added a completely separate system and left the original system intact.

[@greenfroggaming736]

Great video with a balanced stance. I very much enjoyed the detailed analysis of the setup. One would think if everyone done this we would not be in such a compromised position

[@johntisbury]

Thank you. Agreed, the rush for rooftop solar and batteries has gone mainstream now, well past early adopters in the change curve.

[@SteveErhardt1]

Really helpful thanks, also recognised your glass room from your Fired Glass channel which I already subscribe to.

[@johntisbury]

Haha, small world indeed Stephen! Glad it was helpful. Thanks for watching and subbing to FiredGlass. Top man!

[@johntisbury]

How did I miss that! Thanks to @bonbon who pointed this out. @15:04 should have been times 24 months, not 48! This means the saving is £36.78 per month. So £57 - £36.78 = £20.22 per month for the cost of the Powerwall! Even better value! I have not included the cost of the solar installation for 2 reasons. First, the 2011 4kW solar install had paid for itself with FiT payments by Dec 2018, the same month the battery was installed. Secondly, the video was about the Tesla Powerwall 2 battery and was it worth it. Whilst it's part of an overall system, it was this component I was concentrating on.

[@markwright196]

lol thats 20 more for your energy.... lol I think it would sound more reasonable if you said "I am happy to pay a extra 20 a month to have all of that 30% be green energy" .

[@antoinekurukchi283]

Oh nice. I recon with agile + if electricity prices increases + green factor + convenience = it's going to be worth it in the end with hopefully neutral cost/small profit.

[@johntisbury]

Totally, it’s not all about financial payback!

[@chrissowerby69]

Battery production is not green; it takes a lot of energy to produce. Best way to save energy, if you want to be green is to keep your old car running so that a new one doesn't have to be manufactured.

[@antoinekurukchi283]

@@chrissowerby69 agree but there does come a point where the other resources (time and financial viability) make it prohibitive. At that point moving away from fossil fuels makes sense to a lot of people.

[@davidbarnes5953]

Well done John, I got one question about the two electric cars that you charge at home. This I would be a cost saving due to the fact of not having gas purchases. I think this should be added to your overall saving for your systems. Thanks

[@johntisbury]

Good point David, I’m planning a video that covers everything, so will include that.

[@dougrennie5668]

@@johntisbury how would be a cost saving ? the money you would of spent on buying electric cars would of paid for two normal petrol cars and upkeep for a few years .

[@johntisbury]

@@dougrennie5668 agreed that the cost of buy a brand new electric car is more than the equivalent ICE powered car. However, many reports have determined that running one is around 70% cheaper over an ICE car. That figure is probably higher with the current fuel prices. Since making this video we have sold one of our EVs, with marginal depreciation after 3 years and purchased a secondhand EV for 14K. Comparable to any secondhand ICE car price point. Source for costs: www.drivingelectric.com/your-questions-answered/466/what-cost-running-electric-car

[@bilgls5]

Thanks John really appreciate this video

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Bill, glad it proved useful.

[@leoclarke6462]

Thanks John, clearly explained

[@johntisbury]

Thank you Leo for watching.

[@marktiller1383]

I've had my Powerwall 2 since August 2017, performance lifetime 46% solar 54% Powerwall. Selfpowered is easy when you live in Australia. And I also own a Ev and a sanden heat pump for hotwater, AC and heating is electric. Power outages, quite a few and long lasting 13 hours and 45 minutes for the longest, I was the only house with power in my street. How to piss your neighbours off when its dark during a blackout, open your curtains.

[@johntisbury]

Thank Mark, geographical location is everything. Lol at curtains sideshow! Thanks for your stats, 54% self-powered is impressive with AC and heat pump.

[@marktiller1383]

That's Powerwall 54% + 46% solar =100% selfpowered

[@johntisbury]

@@marktiller1383 ah got it, even better then! :-)

[@peterryan7340]

Is that South Australia

[@jimhailwood2873]

Have you thought about going on the Tesla energy plan from octopus? It’s something I’m considering switching to from spring to autumn.

[@johntisbury]

I have Jim yes. There’s a couple of things that put me off. Mainly giving control of my Powerwall to Tesla to fill and empty as they need it. Also to get signed up for the tariff you need to provide proof from your DNO that they have approved your installation. I’m not sure whether that’s a one off, or you need to do it every time you change tariffs.

[@rodden1953]

@@johntisbury Thanks John thats just what i thought about the Tesla plan and i hadnt really investigated in , But i like to have control .

[@johntisbury]

Yeah, I’m like it’s my ball! ⚽️ 😂

[@jimhailwood2873]

@John Tisbury Agreed. I’m not the biggest fan of giving away control of it but with net metering it kind of makes sense. 11p in/out is a good deal. But the way it’s ‘anticipated’ the weather/my forecasted usage I’m not sure I trust it’s ability to predict much of anything really.

[@johntisbury]

@@jimhailwood2873 I don't think Tesla get the UK weather!

[@crispynoges]

A very well worded and presented video. Thank you. I have a similar setup but house consumption is only a little over the 13.5 kWh so Octopus Go most days we only pay 5p a unit. We did get the gateway. About a month ago Tesla upgraded our system so cost saving works in a new way. It now asks for price paid. With our figures it sends all solar to the grid and at the same time discharges the battery exactly the right amount to run the house.Then charges up to 100% overnight. Without the solar panels that makes the battery saving simple to calculate.as about £39 a month with our current tariff. Strange times and new tariffs look to increase the value a little. However over 10 years this still does not really justify the install cost. Our Solar reduces CO2 by offsetting others consumption!

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching and glad you found the format interesting. It is indeed strange times cost wise. I’ve added the costs into the Tesla app, we don’t have SEG so keep export price to 0.00 which stops export unless everything is full!

[@jasmun5550]

Thank You for this informative video!

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching Jasmun

[@mentality-monster]

This is the problem I have every time I look at battery storage, it can't be justified financially as the payback period is far too long for a normal person. Putting £7k into something that hopefully pays for itself in over 10 years (at which point the warranty has run out) is something only an enthusiast will do. I like the idea of it in theory, but until it actually pays for itself, in reality, it's a non-starter.

[@johntisbury]

This is very true. Until home battery storage becomes more mass market the benefits of volume production reducing the price. Today's price points and payback time will be the stumbling block for many. Tesla Powerwall is top of the range for home battery storage solutions and there are other more affordable options, however as with most things, if you are price led, then the product range you are looking at may have reduced features, performance or longevity.

[@GM-ii8gs]

@@johntisbury Alas the Powerwall is not the top of the range battery in the market, you're fallen for their marketing, it's made with grade B cells, we were offered exclusive rights on the Powerwall in the UK market when Tesla first launched it years ago, but our insurers wouldn't allow us to touch them, we can only get insurance on grade A cells, thank god, because we now do a battery with a much higher capacity, costs way less and has a 15-year warranty with individually replaceable cells, force charge ready and in stock, sales are flying, we're killing the Powerwall with it in the UK.

[@DaveJonesTrevescan]

@@johntisbury can you send me details of your batteries please

[@johntisbury]

@@DaveJonesTrevescan what details did you want other than what is already in the video and in the description below the video?

[@N0xiety]

@@GM-ii8gs Mhm, and why don't you give a company/brand name? Why do you only mention Tesla? Do some advertising, why won't you? That's quite strange huh? Who are these 'we' you keep mentioning?

[@kiranchitrapu5004]

Very informative. Am now looking to add a Powerwall and more solar capacity to my 4Kw system similar to your set up. Of course, one shouldn’t only measure the benefits of all this in financial terms. It’s your contribution to future generations but we’ve yet to find a way to calculate it as such.

[@johntisbury]

Agree with your thought process about reducing your carbon footprint and impact. More solar and a Powerwall will certainly achieve that. I hope your plan works out for you.

[@twed57]

John, Great video - thank you! This is obviously more complex than I realised and you explained this really well with the number of variables and the changes. I would be interested in understanding the effect of the lower rates per therm with access to the Octopus rates. Can you give me an indication of the difference between your old rates and the average new lower rates please? I am now going to watch some of your other videos.

[@johntisbury]

Sure, old rate was 17p/kWh up until August 2019, I'm now running on average 9p/kWh. However, that rate will change in August this year and will be circa 19p/kWh I suspect.

[@paulpells1864]

Thanks John very informative 👍

[@johntisbury]

Cool, thanks for watching Paul, glad it was useful to you.

[@pmb9172]

Thanks for reply re supply costs , I picked up on the wholesale link and had visions of you getting horrendous rates with the recent problems over the last few months . I’m in the process of re development and need to decide financially which route to go down along with quality considerations .

[@johntisbury]

No problems, it is certainly uncertain times at present. However as we know in the longterm energy prices are only going to go one way.

[@edgarkeisi]

You have done your homework, thanks for sharing.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching 🙌

[@TodorVankov]

Very cool video! Happy new year ! :)

[@johntisbury]

Thank you. Happy New Year to you too.

[@paulrautenbach]

Very clear. Very helpful. Thanks.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching, glad it was helpful

[@rodden1953]

Thanks John for a really good video ,

[@johntisbury]

Thank you, glad you liked it. Thanks for watching.

[@rodden1953]

@@johntisbury Powerwall is 100% full today first time for a few weeks and im sending 1kwh to the grid now at 1 pm. the lowest the batter has been is 24% but ive not been using the microwave or leaving the TV on all day . but its the shortest day tomorrow .

[@johntisbury]

@@rodden1953 result! Our Powerwall has just reached 100% from solar. Hot water now heating and tumble dryer on

[@E3Property]

Hi John, very interesting, thank you. On the cost saving front, the benefit of the Power Wall is surely that it enables you to shift your energy usage and make effective use the variable tariff. I am very interested to know the difference between your actual energy cost and what you would have paid on a fixed tariff.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Richard, I’m just finishing off a video to cover that very point. Plus cover overall costs of everything we’ve installed and payback period.

[@H4RD1E]

Great video explaining your experience and home configuration (the diagram at the start was great) with solar and the power wall 👍🏻 I’m hoping Tesla introduce the solar roof tiles to the UK market soon before making the leap!

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching. Tesla are still working out the sales process and pricing structure for the solar roof in the US. Not sure it will be over here anytime soon.

[@H4RD1E]

@@johntisbury Did you consider any other brand of battery backup system before getting the Tesla Power Wall? Will be interesting to see the cost benefit over the next year with energy prices going to crazy levels in a couple of days.

[@johntisbury]

At the time back in mid 2018 there weren't that many choices for home storage batteries. Sonnen was about the only one that was close but didn't have the same specs as the Powerwall. The home storage battery was pretty thin on products back then.

[@tajammulrizvi9504]

Thank you very much for this Video. I am sure the two modes can be tabulated.

[@Na0uta]

It's also worth mentioning that it gives you a bit of peace of mind. Knowing that if the power grid is down. You wont have as hard a time. It's also much more quite then a large generator and a lot less regular maintenance. Once a few weeks outside with a hose isnt nearly as bad as regular servicing and checks on the generator. Tho I would still have a small generator on the side for those real dark times.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching, great points on the downsides of a generator. Our Powerwall has the original Gateway 1 which does not have the backup facility. That facility became available with the Gateway 2, which has now superseded version 1.

[@joel0932]

Great video John! Just one Absolutely key part you missed in your savings is the price of petrol/diesel! (Apologies if you did and I missed it.) Like you say, too many variables to factor in. The only way to get a good overview imo would be to compare what what you would be paying right now if you put all that setup in the bin and went back to gas,electric and petrol/diesel. Fascinating stuff there and I’ll keep a look out for update videos from you. All the best 👌🏼

[@johntisbury]

You are right, I did miss the savings from petrol/diesel. Thank you for watching. This video is almost 2 years old now, I've updated it with a newer version. kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5nKpp2JZpqtm9U

[@simonbroddle754]

Great video, my usage is a fraction of yours as we don't have electric cars. However, the video was from Dec 2020 and with the current situation the payback and benefits will come into their own massively in the current global energy crisis in 2022.

[@johntisbury]

Totally Simon. The savings quoted were only ever correct at that point in time. If we look at current energy prices in the UK which have doubled/tripled, then the savings will be dramatically reduced. Energy prices are only ever going to be going one way.

[@dudmanjohn]

Thank you John for this well researched and analytical presentation. Extremely informative. We had 4kw solar panels installed on buying our current house seven and half years so we have a direct saving when the sun is out! FIT payments have averaged £590 a year. Just two of us in a four bedroom bedroom house built in 1994. Our daily energy requirement much lower than yours - we don't have glass kilns - nor have we replaced our ICE cars with BEV and don't have Powerwall. Excess energy is diverted to heat water tank - storing energy in a hot water cylinder underrated in my opinion. Oil is main source for water heating, we're not on mains gas. Have just been through a process of calculating our energy costs for the coming year based on costs from 1st April, 2022 and current price of heating oil - expecting delivery of 900 litres tomorrow. Much, much simpler that yours. Annual breakdown of estimates - including VAT and standing charge: Heating oil £1209 Flexible Octopus £831 - includes standing charge Total £2040 Less FIT payments of £590 Gives an annual cost estimate of £1450 Original cost of solar panels £6700 - so £670 if depreciated* over ten years. So that could be added to above figure. Discussion points: 1. Seems reasonable to include depreciation* of the panels. 2. Seems reasonable to include standing charge. 3. Seems reasonable to include VAT. * 14/11/22 edited to change amortisation to depreciation. I became aware the former only applies to intangible assets.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching John and I'm glad it was useful to you, as are your figures in your comments, really appreciate you sharing these. I agree the hot water cylinders are very much underrated as a heat store, the downside of the heating installers ripping out the tanks and installing combo boilers as they are a cheaper and quicker install. Like many things in life, this is coming full circle again back to hot water storage tanks! I guess your kerosine has inflated in price since your last top up? Agree with your points about including the fixed costs of VAT and standing charge. I didn't include the solar install costs in my figures as our FiT payments had paid off the cost of the solar (15K for 4kW) in Dec 2018 from initial install back in 2011.

[@dudmanjohn]

Thanks John. Missed a zero from the amortised cost of the solar installation 😞. Now corrected.

[@richardwhistance8226]

My company sells PV, Eddi, Zappi and Powerwalls - your presentation is very good, pretty much my script!

[@johntisbury]

Thank you, glad to hear I’m on message.

[@richardwhistance8226]

You really were, it's nice to hear a pragmatic presentation with no spin, I have actually recommended to my boss that we use part of your presentation to help train new salespeople about what the likely pros and cons are for a customer with high consumption .. with 2 EV's your consumption is very high.. If you used less than 10,000kwh you could be more like 70 to 80% self powered and you would load shift the octopus Go ev tariff to good effect .. Anyway continued good luck and than you for the video, I'll look forward to others

[@nickieredshaw7835]

Who’s your company? Were are you based ?

[@richardwhistance8226]

@@nickieredshaw7835 Mole Energy - in the Southwest www.moleenergy.com part of a very big but still locally connected agricultural products and services company

[@tlangdon12]

@@richardwhistance8226 3 kilns must also add a fair bit to the consumption figures!

[@padraigcool]

Thanks John, your detailed analysis has put me to sleep twice. I’m watching this for the third time now and I’m using matchsticks to keep my eyes open. Hopefully the powerwall will be more energy boosting 👍

[@johntisbury]

Well done for struggling through Paddy!

[@ralphhardie7492]

Excellent. Thanks a lot

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Ralph, glad to hear you liked it.

[@AdrianMcDaid]

Excellent presented.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching Adrian, much appreciated.

[@johnrush3596]

Good video and I completely agree that calculating costs is difficult. The key problem is the way that you approach energy usage changes. I am guessing in the last 2 years you have moved to electric vehicles so are using no petrol or diesel . Your hot water has moved from being primary powered by gas to in the summer months by electricity. I believe that looking at the breakdown of how much energy was consumed per platform is better. We have had solar for 2 years and our usage has gone from around 3000kwh a year to 5000kwh a year for electricity. Before the lux system was put in, 70% of generated energy was exported and now with 20kwh of storage we are running close to only 30% exported. We no longer pay £60 a month for fuel for the car and now pay £15 a month in winter to run a Zoe and likely almost nothing between march and October. Our gas bill between march and October is just the standing charge. Given our usage has increased our yearly energy bill has reduced by 50% and is almost covered by the fit tariff. Will our system pay back time be within the warranty ? By the look of it it will. My main man maths justification is that the system has reduced monthly outgoings and does not cost any servicing. With working from home being more of the new normal having power generated at your work place and available cheaply needs to be a consideration. Finally there is the octopus agile tariff. This is more complicated, as it stands I need to set the batteries to charge during the usual cheap times to take advantage of the rates during the winter months, as Feb and march approaches I can reduce the soc figure to a point of self consumption.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks John and a good call on looking at a per platform consumption - a good idea.

[@lamayengineeringservices]

Thanks for this. I'm torn between the power wall & two giv energy batteries(8.2kw)

[@johntisbury]

Check to see what the ramp up rate is on the GivEnergy batteries. Powerwall will deliver 5kW instantly. It will also charge up to 5kW too from excess solar. Not sure of the specs on the GivEnergy ones.

[@leolui4039]

Thanks for sharing. Very interesting

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching Leo. Remember that the prices quoted here will now be out of date and savings will be more.

[@leolui4039]

@@johntisbury yeah. I’m in the process is installing a hybrid heatpump and also a 4000kwh solar array. However I’m also looking at ways to be totally gas independent, so I will concentrate on that first. Being a recently retired marine engineer, I finally get round to fiddle around with these things, and not a minute too soon 😀

[@johntisbury]

You may want to look at Victron inverters and Pylontech batteries then, many boaters go down that route, but also works great for home battery solutions. Nigel from the EVPuzzle channel has just done a video on his installation. kzbin.info/www/bejne/r3Xcd31nm9WCa80

[@danielcrabtree1141]

I am at a cross roads and struggling to make a decision on a Powerwall (or 3) purchase but really thank you so much John for a very informative video and for adding comprehensive replies to many of the comments. If nothing else it reaffirms what I am finding, that to cost justify the purchase a of Powerwall is extremely complex at best and more likely impossible, as there are simply too many variables. Appreciate there are other reasons why you may choose to go ahead anyway of course. I have two electric feeds, one single phase to the house which has a 4kw solar array but where crucially the feed has an old style meter. This meter goes backwards when we generate more energy than we use. I suspect on this we have the panacea in that we are guaranteed to use 100% of what we generate which I appreciate is luck rather than good judgement. This negates the need for a Powerwall other than if there is value in charging it on a low cost tariff (say Octopus Go) and discharging it throughout the day on the 4000 kwh pa we still have as net energy usage. I suspect for such small numbers its not worthwhile. Our second electric feed however is "3 Phase" with a 10kw solar array with a new style digital meter (which of course does not go backwards). We have used 21,000 KWH in the last year on this feed which includes running a M3 (12k miles) since 3/3/20. Our solar array generates 9k units pa but crucially what we don't know is of what we generate, what do we use (or the opposite what do we pass back to the grid). This is a large missing piece of the jigsaw for me that could make my Powerwall purchase decision easier. Every time I look at this and try to cost justify it I am getting to 14 years to break even (which feels too long), although I accept the real number of years is lower. If I was able to include "Energy Price Inflation" (which of course we can't read the future) or any of the solar generation upside this justification I suspect would be much easier. Part of me thinks the government should have just made it law that everyone has an old style meter and this would negate the majority of need to put batteries on walls all over the world, which may be even more Eco friendly. Any comments would be gratefully received as I am still carrying out my research and if I do buy 3 Powerwalls it needs to be this side of 31/3/21.

[@johntisbury]

Hi Daniel, thanks for watching and commenting with a very comprehensive overview of your system. As you've found working out the pricing model and justification for a home storage battery is complicated with many variables to juggle and understand. I think 10 - 14 years sounds about right for a payback time. It's not a quick return on investment. I guess the underlying question to answer is why do you want a Powerwall. If it's to save money, then there may be better alternatives to invest money elsewhere, e.g. Tesla shares come to mind. If it's to reduce your reliance on the grid, have backup power in case of a power outage, store any excess solar rather than feeding it back to the grid, then a Powerwall makes perfect sense. When I purchased mine back in Dec 2018 I didn't do too much maths on the return on investment, that was a secondary driver for me. For you it may be different and that's the most important thing. I think being clear on why you want it will help you decide if it's a good thing to do or not.

[@danielcrabtree1141]

@@johntisbury thanks for the reply, very useful to get that clear. Yes cost justification is important to us in a reasonable timescale. Since writing this morning, I think I have found a way to buy 1 Powerwall rather than 3, use the Tesla Energy Plan at 8p per kwh and get the break even to 7 years. It relies on the tariff remaining available, obtaining a 3 phase smart meter from Octopus (been waiting since October) and assuming the £9,600 installed single power wall quote is credible. If I can put the purchase through my firm, this will also save 19% corporation tax which would improve the 7 year break even point. Additionally there is Fuel Inflation over 10 yrs+ to consider which I suspect this system allows you to bypass whereby saving further over the long term. After your video and what I have learned if I can firm all this up, will definitely go ahead. Are you able to recommend a firm who did your Powerwall and instal? I am in Bedford so not that far away from you I believe. Thanks so much again.

[@johntisbury]

The TEP (Tesla Energy Plan) is a great plan via Octopus Energy, sounds like a good option for you. The reason I've not moved across to it is you lose control of your Powerwall. However, that said I know of people who have moved across and found it works very well for them. I'd recommend either JOJU Solar Ltd, who did my Powerwall installation or Stratford Energy, who did my second solar array installation. Both very good, reliable and knowledgable firms. BTW make sure you get written confirmation from the DNO for the approval for the Powerwall installation as you will need to provide this when applying for the TEP.

[@danielcrabtree1141]

@@johntisbury Thanks I will touch base to get some quotes. Not sure how competitive my £9,600 initial quote is for 1 Powerwall. I now have a spreadsheet to tie this down and am comfortable I can get it down to 8 years break even after taking a guess on fuel price inflation over 10 years, after loss of inflation linked FIT Export Tariff payments we receive but after including saving on Corporation Tax (which does require accountant approval). Thanks for your help, you are clearly passionate and very knowledgeable on the subject matter.

[@chilternsroamer872]

great video - it answers a question for me - we use way less than £57 a month of electric, summer or winter. So it looks like I will be waiting for the next generation of "batteries".

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching. Low usage does make a Tesla Powerwall not that cost effective for sure. If you decided to go down the home battery route then a small battery may be a better fitting solution, GiveEnergy products are very good, UK manufactured and smaller capacity which means a lower price tag.

[@chilternsroamer872]

@@johntisbury we have a "modern" (i.e. small) 2 bed semi, and no "power monster" devices (no tumble drier, no dishwasher). That, and the gas combi boiler and gas hob means we only use an average of about £70 pm for gas and electric combined. When we replace the combi boiler (it is only 7 years old, so likely to be a while yet), then all electric might make sense, and then we will be on the lookout for a battery.

[@denisw398]

Good summary and very interesting - It confirmed my bias that backed solar is not an economic option. But for energy security and going forward I think it is probably looking like a very good idea and I think you costed it conservatively on life from what we know - thanks

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Denis. Agree with your points about conservative costings, that is very evident based on current energy rates we are all facing. To be energy self-sufficient for as much as you are able to can only be a good thing in the long run I believe.

[@chrissavage5966]

Had a PW2 & Solar PV array installed back in mid-2017 (2nd PW2 in the country I think, Rob Llewellyn nicked the 1st one) Initially I tried to keep track of how much it was reducing the bills, but it just got so messy in the end due to various tariff changes etc that I gave up. Ultimately, it's academic, the money for the install is spent and I wasn't expecting to break even for about 14 years anyway. Moved to Octopus Go just over a year ago and let the PW run in cost-saving all the time - it does a pretty good job on the whole. According to the app, for a lifetime so far of just under 5 years, we've been 64% self powered. 37% solar, 27% PW. The latest app has an 'energy value' figure and it reckons we've saved just under £2500, but it's assuming use of the Go tariff the whole time, so it'll be wrong. Solar offset is at 90%. Have a 5.9kWp install, typical daily usage is about 12kWh and 18kWh if we charge the car (MB hybrid). We have a Solaredge hot water diverter that uses surplus solar to heat the water, and I have hacked a very basic Rolec charger so I can control it on a schedule or manual override, so we charge the car on 5p units in winter and using excess solar in summer. BUT.....given the way energy costs have gone of late(!), I'm feeling pretty darn happy about having the system put in. The SolarPV has been faultless, have had a couple of issues with the PW2. It's on an outside wall so as per the video, has to work a bit harder for temp control. During the 1st winter, it started playing up on cold mornings, refusing to accept charge. After a somewhat lengthy back & forth with Tesla support, they eventually determined the coolant pump had failed. It took longer than I'd have liked to diagnose, and longer than I'd have like to fix, but they did eventually install a new PW2 The other issue was just a few weeks ago, never seen before or since, on a day with some sun, I happened to look at the app and noticed that charge status had gone from about 98% to 0% instantly, although it was still accepting charge until a point where it was probably at 100% in reality, but then it refused to output any power either. Called support, they had a remote peek, couldn't see anything obvious, passed it up the line, then about an hour later it was back to normal. I assume they sorted it remotely. It hadn't responded to my attempts at rebooting the PW & Gateway.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Chris for your detailed stats and information. I agree with you about the difficulty trying to work out the costs!

[@AlgerChaine3]

Well done John it was very educational!! Sadly it's too expensive to import to Algeria 😞

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching. Sorry to hear import costs prevent acquisition

[@TheCryptoDonkey]

Great video as always John. I’m interested in knowing whether you tinker with your peak / off peak and shoulder settings. For instance with a recent plunge event, I set peak just after plunge event to force a charge. Btw I’ve gathered my November ASHP stats into a PowerPoint which will become a video soon, in short it’s added 17kWh to our daily house consumption or about £1.58 a day for a 4 bed detached providing all heat and hot water.

[@johntisbury]

Hi Darren thanks for watching. I don't tinker no, I leave it and forget it. I've heard that some people who tinker too much end up confusing the algorithm and getting worse performance from their Powerwall as it doesn't know if its coming or going. I can understand the benefit from the odd tweak as you mention, adjusting to take the benefit from a plunge pricing event makes perfect sense. I look forward to seeing your November stats video especially with your ASHP, thanks for the heads-up.

[@cunningiain5594]

I have the Gateway 2 & Powerwall 2, interestingly that when the Powerwall is being charged by solar I always have a small charge (30 to 60W) coming from the grid. When the Powerwall is either fully charged or discharging nothing showing coming from the grid. I was told that the Gateway 2 needs to see a voltage from the grid, in case it has to go into ‘back up’ mode. I have had 12 ‘back up’ events in 18 months of usage, ranging from 26 seconds to 3 mins. Interestingly the Eddi was picking up when the sub station was routinely switching over transformers, myEnergi have increased the time for a fault detection as part of a update.

[@johntisbury]

The Eddi is very fast at detecting changes in supply, that's one of its major benefits. Makes sense on the Gateway 2 needing to see a charge. The Gateway 1 works in a similar fashion in terms of a trickle from the grid when charging. Obviously it has no backup facility like yours does.

[@salokin1]

Lots of arithmetic, John, and others have already pointed out the division by 48 instead of 24. The question I have is, "How rigorous was the calculation of the average cost per unit?" That is also rather difficult in reality.

[@johntisbury]

That's a fair question Nic. It was very difficult to determine over the two years with all the changes that took place. I based my final figure on 10 months on an expensive E.ON tariff which I'm ashamed to admit was 18p/kWh when I looked back through the bills. Those heady days of ignorance. Then I had 9 months on Octopus Go with split rates and 5 months on Agile vario-rates. These were much more tricky to land upon. So not robust in a sense of being able to show my workings. But there or thereabouts.

[@johncoach14]

I only read a couple of comments, but I was going to say - you need to be able to work in the units of energy. Then you can compare everything, like for like. As for costs, that would then depend on how much you pay for your energy, and would vary by consumer (and many other factors). But you could give a couple of simple examples for that.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching John, good solid points, thank you.

[@rhiantaylor3446]

Thanks for the entertaining but realistic video. Must be a little disappointing to think of all that battery storage sitting in your 2 EVs, you could easily meet your full daily electricity requirement from either PV or cheap rate supplies if your cars had Vehicle to Load capabilities.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching. Yes Vehicle To Grid / House is a massive area for improvement. Some trials happening in the UK, but limited to Chademo connectors which are mainly Nissan Leafs.

[@chrisjones6542]

Really good analysis of Cost, Pros and Cons. I have a 4Kw FIT with hit water diverter, and have just ordered an electric Kona. You have pretty much talked me out of a Powerwall (current quotes come in around £10k) - leave it until batteries get cheaper perhaps? So now the question is... Invest in a Smart charger (diverting excess solar to the car) or a bog standard charger with the car timed to use off peak... AND maybe invest in a few more panels & inverter..... (Though I am running out of SW facing roof!)

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for warning Chris. Yup home storage batteries are difficult to justify purely on cost saving. I would recommend a smart charge like the myenergi zappi over a timed option. The charger is smart enough to work with the Octopus Agile tariff plus will automate the chore of charging from surplus sunshine. More panels are always a good win in my opinion, or look at solar thermal to heat your hot water for central heating and hot water.

[@devenair681]

Very helpful. One point to consider is how long will you stay in the property. As someone who has historically moved about every five years (though we have been in our current property for 10, a record for us) what will be the cost of removing and taking with you your whole set up? Otherwise you will have to factor in the cost of a complete installation when you move. A total cost of your whole set up would be very helpful. Of course with the current situation (March 2022) you will be smiling. I also think that a large percentage of people will not be able to afford the upfront costs involved.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching. Valid points you raise about longevity of house location and up front costs. Sadly it is only those that can afford it who will benefit. Leaving those already fuel poor worse off with the current energy prices and global issues.

[@nickieredshaw7835]

Thanks very good video. Looking into solar and battery and solar diverter and solar ev charging setup . Take care and safe travels and happy holidays

[@johntisbury]

Thank you Nickie for watching. Good news on your investigations into renewables, they will give you a warm feeling and help the environment and your pocket. Happy holidays to you too. Feel free to ask any questions, if I can help I will.

[@nickieredshaw7835]

@@johntisbury thanks had solar in last house but had to move with feed in tariff was great . But now no feed in it’s a harder decision as looking at 15-20 years payback not 5 !

[@johntisbury]

@@nickieredshaw7835 yes the lack of FiT is disappointing. However, there are more tariffs available from companies like Octopus Energy that offer more flexibly and ability to save money. There's also the SEG payments, which are worth shopping around for as they vary considerably. The cost of solar installations has plummeted over the years which is why the FiT scheme was abolished.

[@nickieredshaw7835]

@@johntisbury prices have not dropped much in last 7 years, we only paid under 4 k for 3 kw panels . Now still looking at 3s for same and now we’re we would put say 4-5 kw pannels and just ev charging with fit payment and won’t bother with battery etc so would be 4-5 k and payback would quick . But without fit payment you need to maximise your useable solar so need big battery and hot water diverter and solar ev charging etc so from 4-5 k to 10-13k £ so payback is lot longer 15-20 years not 4-5 years as before

[@johntisbury]

@@nickieredshaw7835 all good points and agree with the need to maximise usable solar. I started with 4kWp and added another 2.34kWp 12 months ago. I also think that solar / battery in one of the few home improvement upgrades where you will actually recover the costs. If your current house in a long term home then it makes more sense to invest. Other home improvements like a new kitchen, , bathroom, new windows, conservatory etc never really recoup that purchase price.

[@richardbower7171]

HI John, great video as always. Only 1st year of ownership of power wall & gateway 2 44% self powered as house usage 23 kwh with 3-51 kwp solar panels. We have had 8 events in back up history lasting a total of 1.5 hrs in our 1st year and never noticed power outage when neighbours have lost there supply, might have more events than you due to house being overhead supply? When we finally get a Octopus smart meter (been waiting & chasing since March) will have to watch this again to set up power wall, as we only get smart export payment and export very little might need help with correct tariff choice. Stay safe. Richard

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Richard for watching. Doesn't time fly, 1 year in for you. 44% self-powered is great. Overhead wires will certainly make you more susceptible to outages, great to know how many events you have had. The Gateway 2 is a no brainer for you. The smart meter will open up lots of tariff possibilities for you. When you get it installed happy to suggest as the playing field may be different by then.

[@martin096]

1:30 - We have a family of 3 living in this household and we only use 11kwh a day. I suppose you do have 2 electric vehicles to charge though. How much electric does your solar panels produce per day? Love the video, keep up the great work.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching Martin. The solar generation can really ping pong in output. Worst case it can be 2kW a day, other days it can be 40kW in a day. I do a monthly update on solar generation, Powerwall performance, EVs usage, grid import / export etc March's vid can be found here. kzbin.info/www/bejne/sKuck3uGh7WLntk We are a high usage household: 2 EVs, 3 glass kilns in the studio, Tesla Powerwall charging in the winter months from the grid. There are the big suckers of power.

[@chriskeegan7520]

It would be good to build this system into new builds good video very interesting

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Chris and totally agree. I've no idea why solar panels and home battery are not part of the building code, solar panels at the very least. It's being talked about, but don't see much unilateral progress across the UK.

[@hughchilds5888]

It would be interesting to see some updated figures with current electricity prices and the increased difference between standard day rate and reduced night rate? I'm doing the sums on Octopus Go, I'm still on 15p / 5p until Feb 2023, but I understand it's now 32p/7.5p - big savings with that price differential, even without the added benefit of the PV!

[@johntisbury]

Absolutely Hugh, PV and home storage batteries makes much more sense. I have made a much more recent video which covers all of our costs and savings for our whole setup; kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5nKpp2JZpqtm9U

[@GaryStephenJones]

All them solar panels and you still use 74% of your electric from the grid. Not worth the hassle. Great video and very informative. Keep up the good work

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Gary. Each person's use case will be different. We pulled 6.24MWh from the grid in 2022. Without the Powerwall it would have cost another 249kWh on our bill.

[@gary8397]

I have a powerwall 2 plus 10 kW of solar cells. I worked it out at previous rates it wasn't really viable financially. I installed it to contribute to lowering greenhouse gases as much as a financial setup. Well, a few weeks after I installed it there was an announcement that the power prices will double in the next two years. Most likely double again over the following 2 years. This is making my decision to install solar and a battery look like a good decision both environmentally and financially after all. When considering installing a system like this you need to take into account how energy prices will go up over time. This has been accelerated by the war in the Ukrain I doubt the prices will ever go down.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Gary. 100% with you on this. I have just done an updated video on total costs as this one is now out of date by some country mile! The new video paints a much rosier picture. kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5nKpp2JZpqtm9U

[@johntreadwell6846]

Great video 👏

[@johntisbury]

Thanks John

[@deekireland3682]

Hello John, I have a question regarding what did you use for creating hot water, prior to installing the Powerwall? When anyone else does their calculations whatever fuel was being used before and now replaced with electricity should also be factored in as a saving. In my own case as I live in a very rural area, oil via a boiler was used. During the summer this was used for hot water (rightly or wrongly). I now generate all my hot water via electricity since installing 2.8kw PV. I have data going back further than 2 years, cost of oil hot water €300 per year. As price of oil now doubled since last year that saving will be €600 going forward. Or €50 per month. My point is those using your calcs need to take their current cost of hot water into account making case for rural dwellers on oil based far better. Your question regarding other calculation solutions at present is solved by my previous employer, at present they only support large industrial users. I’m going to ask them if they will allow one off houses access. If you contact me I’ll inform you of their response.

[@johntisbury]

Good question. I used gas to heat the hot water. Our eddi was installed in July 2019 so from there on surplus solar was used except in the non-solar times when it would have been gas. Agreed, I'd not factored this into the savings. I hope you get the result you are after with your previous employer on monitoring / calculations. Yes I'd be interested to hear how you get on if they respond.

[@deekireland3682]

@@johntisbury thanks it was my job for last 40 plus years before I retired. Let’s see what they say.

[@chrisb508]

I have solar PV, but decided against a power wall. The solar was a no brainer. Where I live in West Texas, the system routinely produces a year round average of 35 kWh per day with a high of over 50 kWh per day during the summer. I crunched the numbers and there was no financial advantage to adding a power wall. I do like the idea of being self powered. Maybe some time in the future.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Chris. Yup the numbers alone don't make financial sense for most situations. The value propositions needs to cover many variables and those really are homeowner specific.

[@singlesprocket]

Thanks for sharing. How are you warming your home? I also have a PV array and I’m considering air source heat pump which is electrically powered. I’d also like to transition to a BEV and I’d like to hear how your combined home and transport system is performing technically and financially. Looking forward to your follow up video this time next year, especially given the astronomical cost of living and fossil fuel increases!

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching. We currently use gas for central heating, only. Hot water heated by electricity via immersion heater from excess solar or cheap off-peak. We have 2 EVs, a Tesla Model 3 for long trips, a Zoe 22kW for local journeys. We have a myenergi zappi which can charge the cars from excess solar or from the grid. We only have the one charger and swap between the two cars. We have a 8m long lead so we don't have to do the car shuffle every time we want to charge. I've just finished recording the update video, so that will be uploaded later this week.

[@dalevearncombe9672]

Thanks for the video. A couple of questions if I may? 1. How often do you deplete the Power Wall? Is this a daily(nightly) cycle? 2. Can you explain more about the lack of power cut protection from a Gateway 1? Doesn’t it have an inverter that converts the stored DC power into AC, which could be used during a power cut? Sorry for my ignorance

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Dale. Answers to your questions below, hopefully I've explained then well enough. 1. In the winter it is often depleted daily. Actually there's 500w left in the battery to preserve it so you never completely flatten it. It's rated for 14kW with only 13.5kW usable. In the Spring/Autumn/Summer months we rarely completely discharge it due to more daylight hours, more solar production. 2. The Gateway 1 was the first iteration of the Tesla Gateway and is no longer sold / available, this being replaced by Gateway 2. The location of the Gateway 1 is different to the Gateway 2. Gateway 2 is situated house side of the incoming meter / grid connection, the Gateway 1 is the other side. This means the Gateway 2 can switch a breaker and isolate the house from the grid to prevent discharging back to the grid during a power outage and still provide power to run the house. The solar panels will still work and run the house and charge the battery. When the battery is full it will turn off the inverter for the solar. The Gateway 1 does not have this off-grid ability, simply because of where's its position and the lack of breaker.

[@dalevearncombe9672]

@@johntisbury Perfect. Thanks John. The gateway differences makes sense now.

[@jeremyahagan]

You can do further and more detailed cost analysis by extracting the data into a different systrem. I have a very similar setup to you and I pull all of the data from my Sunny Boy and Solar Edge inverters, the Powerwall and my Smart meter into a system I can then use to analyse the exact cost of everything. It takes a fair bit of technical knowledge to do however.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for suggestion. Our Sunny Boy inverter is 11 years old and has no data extract option. This then limits my options. 😏

[@jeremyahagan]

@@johntisbury mine is similar age. It has a Bluetooth connection which allows data to be extracted with a special app of theirs.

[@johntisbury]

@@jeremyahagan mine was never fitted with the bluetooth option and the board is no longer available unfortunately.