Test AES3 on Mic vs Snake and CAT5e Cable @ 48Khz 96Khz 192Khz

[@erniesanders3724]

Excellent testing Dave. Stumbled across this post today and gave it a listen. Outstanding Sir. You’re amazing.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Ernie!

[@ncsteeltoe]

As a production rigger I've never been much interested in how audio works just how much it weighs. I do enjoy these videos. Adopting ethernet to audio makes perfect sense. The cable doesn't care what it's carrying. Very informative.

[@JulienDeon]

great session dave! this is something i try to explain to people all the time not to buy into the hype ... the greatest offender in the av world is of course monster cable!

[@lsdave]

Audio Quest probably rivals Monster

[@jimjimx5418]

Hosa is the worst!

[@MalcolmMacgregorSound]

Nice test Dave! You didn't mention it but there is loss at the interconnects. A single 200m cable might work where 2 100m cables fail. DMX and AES signals suffer more from this than analogue due to reflections created at these points.

[@DaveRat]

+Malcolm MacgregorSound Yes, and I agree with anvilshock, that in the real world applications, interconnects are part of the equation. That said, I will head out back and see if adding several small jumper XLRs to a a 50m Mic cable will make 96K fail at a much shorter distance than the 100m of cable that 96K works with.

[@MalcolmMacgregorSound]

In the real world there are a lot of interconnects, so it definitely makes sense to test with them. I just wanted to point out a point of interest :-) Looking forward to your findings Dave.

[@DaveRat]

+Malcolm MacgregorSound I did a video with a bunch of intreconnect using AES192. It will be up on the 23rd of Nov

[@2sc458]

Absolutely correct. Usually, a well made RF cable will have very smooth impedance through its length. It's where you separate the cables and terminate where the impedance discontinuities (mostly) appear. It's where the reflections start and where those reflected signals merge with the freshest signal coming down the transmission line, causing signal corruption where the decision circuit cannot make out the 1, or 0 correctly. Rather than a PASS/FAIL test, a bit error rate test tells you more.

[@phoneeko]

As expected, pro audio is not immune to perception of quality or fact distortion. Basically, like you said, a normal decent quality analogue mic cable will work perfectly within a certain range of applications and length. No need to spend X money in AES cables unless you have specific needs. Personally I sent AES 96k through 300m of Cat7 without any problems at all, at a fraction of the cost. Nice video :)

[@DaveRat]

+Alexander Budd Agreed and I really like to just test things rather than buy into a concepts that may or may not be credible.

[@antigen4]

yes it depends on your use ... if you're just laying wiring for a live show etc it's not going to matter - if doing recording and you care about quality then it sure DOES matter.

[@conorm2524]

@@antigen4 How so? It's just 1s and 0s at the end of the day.

[@antigen4]

if enough zeroes become ones and ones become zeroes when travelling through a long pipeline then yeah it's a problem i guess

[@antigen4]

possibly less so if the signal is unconverted digital though ... but that nearly never happens in a studio situation ...

[@johnnyvandeclit259]

This video makes me realize how much I miss working and getting lost in what goes in and out and where. Lockdown is absolutely necessary but hard on the mind and feels some nights.

[@wattage2007]

I think history has proven it was absolutely unnecessary and did more harm than good.

[@DaveRat]

My take is lockdown was beneficial is slowing the spread to reduce the overload of hospitals as sickness exceeded capacity. Supply and nursing shortages as well as open beds and such were all issues. Slowing the spread resulted in saving many lives. As immunity rises, lockdown measures should have reduced in unison. Though the timing and such was often out of sync as one would expect when a complex grand scale orchestration occurs, I believe the "completely unnecessary" viewpoint is short sighted and flawed. Could it have been done better? Yes. Were there over reactions and under reactions, yes. My take is over reacting is equally as foolish as under reacting. It is the measured and well informed middle ground that results in the optimal outcome.

[@wattage2007]

Absolute, comment-deleting dick of a man. Your test was garbage too.

[@DaveRat]

Looks like you are trying to reply but KZbin is blocking it. I can see the beginning of a childish angry comment from you in the comment feed but it's gone when I click on it. Something about me being a comment deleting dick I must admit that watching someone have a tantrum posting increasingly angry comments that are getting censored by the KZbin bots and imagining you getting more and more frustrated is an amusing mental image. Maybe try toning it down and maybe KZbin will let your comments actually post.

[@ReneAlexisPenalozaMunoz]

Hello Dave, thanks for posting these useful videos.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@emile.techav]

I have run into a situation with a Dlive DX AES out (running 96k) to D&B D20 amp where XLR 10 foot was working but wouldn't keep the sync. Sound was interrupting from time to time randomly about 3 seconds. I had access to a spool of DMX AES cable 4 twisted wire and mesh shield, solved to issue. Cool video, but I still want my digital signal to be with short AES cable or cat7 for longer run even though a 10 foot xlr audio cable can pass it. Thanks Dave !

[@MrDrumdrumhaha]

Thanks Dave! Very informative video.

[@isettech]

AVB network replaces AES and permits use of AVB comparable network routers to ensure time slices for synchronized digital audio packets. Long concert runs are no longer a problem as a mid span network switch can join segments of cable as needed. The network switch permits use of the stage box audio by both the FOH engineer and the side stage monitor engineer. A typical stage box has 16-64 mic line inputs and 8 sends per box or more. There are incomparable formats, so look for the open source AVB standards for cross equipment comparability to prevent vendor lock in as happened with VHS vs Betamax.

[@DaveRat]

And also, sometimes simple easy analog and AES3 are the best way to get the job done. Having old school utility XLRs can be super useful for talkbacks, com, and shipping a mic signal to several locations without latency. Analog, AES3, and com over shielded cat5e. Perhaps like how bicycles are still relevant long after cars and planes have been invented.

[@DasTweaker1]

Cool test! I wonder if there would be a benefit to CAT6 shielded over 100m?

[@sbroggie]

Very helpful. Thanks Dave.

[@ODWALLA123]

Thanks, Dave.

[@impulseproman]

wow great video dave

[@DBravo29er]

Great video!!!! 👍

[@DaveRat]

👍👍👍

[@benjaminchen8207]

Great video, Dave. Thank you! I have 2 questions about cabling. 1. CAT BOX uses CAT5e Ethercon jacks, but does using CAT6A cable on CAT BOX have advantages over CAT5e cables (in terms of Electromagnetic interference or radio-frequency interference )? 2. Would CAT5e Ethercon jacks limited the capacity of the CAT6A cable?

[@DaveRat]

You can use and shielded cat5e or better cable. Cat6, cat7, cat6a are all good. Since it's analog over cat cable, and cat cable is rated for frequency responses that are 100k, 1 Meg, 10meg or more and analog is only 20k, all the cat grade cables are well over the capabilities. Shielded is the main thing as you need the shield for phantom power to work and the shield reduces interference issues. Though cat cables have very high quality twists and are naturally better at avoiding interference than regular audio cables.

[@benjaminchen8207]

@@DaveRat thanks for your reply!

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@deejayduy]

hey David.. cool vid once again.. quick questions.. i sometime get a "humming sound" from my cables when i hook it up to my active speakers from my dj mixer.. i know that is a bad cable but is there a way to test out the cable prior to a show and trouble shooting it at home without all the hook up?.. is there a handy device like the one you are using to tell?.. thanks man..

[@DaveRat]

+duy nguyen Check out the Rat Sniffer/Sender from from soundtools.com which allows you to test XLR cables without having both ends next to each other. Also whirlwind and other companies make boxes that test XLR cables.

[@mynameiscool18]

hey dave great video. Along the same lines I was wondering if you have used the whirlwind ir snake. could you do a video about it?

[@DaveRat]

+Dan Fletcher Thank you Dan. No, I have not used the Whirlwind IR snake. If I do run into a situation where I use it, find a distinct advantage to it or issue with it, will consider doing a vid.

[@oliverlopezofficial]

First of all, thank you a lot for this video!! I also like your Ethercon snake system and I'm thinking about of buying some cable for my school. This may be a stupid question, I'm starting right now with live sound mixing and electronics. How is the shield transmitted from the Cat6/7 cable to the XLR in the CatSnake Stagebox? Because if I'm not mistaken there will be a connection between the shield and the housing of the CatSnake. How did you manage the shield problem?

[@jonnyh7344]

For the cat 5 test did you need to use the jumpers? could you not have just plugged the tails into the breakout box?

[@moristar]

I wonder if testing cable like this, rolled and fastened brings any coil-effect into play. I'm no sound engineer, but I heard of one old guy once, that all cables should be spread to avoid coil forming.

[@theycallmefilip]

+moristar1101 Most, if not all, pro audio cables are shielded. Though the shielding may vary in quality, the low current makes sure there's no coil effect. If you'd run 2 amps of current through it, that would be another scenario.

[@DaveRat]

+moristar1101 The coiled cable may or may not have an effect. The reality is that in order to keep a clean stage and setup, coiling up the excess cable is a reality that is pretty much unavoidable. The question I feel is not whether coiling is worse than real world, but rather, if a cable is run straight, can we get better results? On the other hand, it is probably safer to look at worst case scenario coiled cables as the baseline.

[@moristar]

Dave Rat I see your point and agree - very practical :) Slightly off topic - is it really possible to get long coils too hot or inflict any other kinds of damage under heavy load in real world scenario?

[@DaveRat]

+moristar1101 When dealing with high current single conductor cables, leaving them in a coil can create an inductor and heat. To solve that, wind in a figure 8 pattern rather than a coil. That is for Power Cables like AC feeder. For signal cables it is a non issue.

[@moristar]

Nice! Thanks, Dave!

[@isettech]

I should do a video showing the TDR reflections in each of the cables and their nominal impedance. Maybe later. Working overtime currently.

[@DaveRat]

Yes and also please show or set to hear the audible differences of those reflections so we are able to understand the relevance of reducing them

[@isettech]

@@DaveRat At audible frequency, there is little effect in short parts of a wavelength. This is important in distances from 31 inches at 100 MHZ, 3100 inches at 10 MHZ, and 3,100 inches at 1 MHZ. At lower frequencies, the mismatch when severe is quite apparant in shorter distances of 50 feet. For example use an old school high Z mic into a high Z guitar input, or a high Z guitar pickup on a 100 foot snake to a guitar amp with high Z input. There is a reason, pro gear moved from high Z to between 200 and 600 ohms. Old school was incompatible with long cords. A 50K Ohm mic on a 50 foot cord to a tube amp did affect the quality. Most home stereo RCA Inputs are 20K Ohms. Most home stereo is not used as pro gear for a reason. It is incompatible with long cables. When I get some time, I may put some TDR results up for many consumer grade cables.

[@isettech]

@@DaveRat It will take a while to get a video together and I'm not a video producer. Replying as I did some testing on two snakes I have with an interest in comparability with digital. The two snakes tested are a 100 foot 12X3 and a 75 foot 12X4. The 12X2 I could not find online. It is a blue stage box with the brand Pro Sound. This was bought used. in good condition. The other is a Horizon Stage Series. The Pro Sound has a grey PVC jacket cable and the Horizon has a black rubber jacket like an SO power cable. To my surprise, these two cables matched each other in impedance and were both 65 Ohms. Ethernet CAT 5 cable is specified at 110 to 120 Ohms. RS-485, the standard used for DMX-512 is specified at 120 Ohms. When using a traditional analog snake, the low impedance causes a reflection in the cable of fast rise time digital severely limiting it's usefulness for long distance. This is how I took the measurements. Someone already did an excellent video of the process. Instead of a pulse generator, I use a function generator with a response up to 25 MHZ. I use a resistor in series to limit the current from the pulse. This prevents the low impedance of the cable slowing the rise time of the generator. Trace on the scope has a sharp rise, but low amplitude. This is the exact method used to measure the impedance. You can see from the trace if you sent high speed data, causing the pulse sent to be short, the impedance mismatch to the load causes extra steps in voltage in the original square pulse. This is what affects high speed data. The microphone to cable impedance and cable to console is much less critical with a low z mic such as a dynamic. Issues with a very long guitar cord and the high Z guitar are well known. In old time radio, when crystal microphones ruled for the high voltage for tube amps to avoid hiss, long cables killed the mic response, so crystal mics were never used with a long snake without issues. Ask anyone trying to direct connect an electric guitar into a snake with only a TS to XLR adapter. A high Z to low Z DI box is required. The low Z overloads the pickup and kills the response. kzbin.info/www/bejne/f53Clp2raamSiq8&feature=emb_logo

[@isettech]

The scope I used is this one as it has the function generator built in. They call it an arbitrary waveform generator. Less than $300 and can be used for TDR measurements.

[@isettech]

www.amazon.com/Hantek-DSO4102C-Oscilloscope-Arbitrary-Generator/dp/B015O8YVES/ref=pd_sbs_328_15?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B015O8YVES&pd_rd_r=0d51b377-bcfc-434a-b02e-cff6dfd68c78&pd_rd_w=8V7WL&pd_rd_wg=G2Joc&pf_rd_p=d28ef93e-22cf-4527-b60a-90c984b5663d&pf_rd_r=F02CRVTNMYMGDCNTFCSD&psc=1&refRID=F02CRVTNMYMGDCNTFCSD

[@bananawaffle3194]

This may sound as a rookie question, but how do you roll such long lengths of cable so well? Over/Under works for me to about 50m cables then after that, the cable becomes a jumbled mess. Can you please tell me or make a video about how you roll such long cables so well?

[@DaveRat]

+BananaWaffle Hmmm, after reading your question I did a youtube search and looks like there are some cable coiling videos out there. I have not watched any so I do not know the quality of them. I try and do videos on subjects that no one else has done yet or from a differing angle than is normally accepted. Let me know if the info out there is not up to par, and if so I will consider giving it a shot.

[@DaveRat]

Very cool, yes, soon. We are waiting for the CNC cut version next week.

[@kuyavenzinfovlog]

Nice what device you're using in testing.

[@DaveRat]

An older version of the Whirlwind AES qbox

[@andrew2004sydney]

Fun video but how are those mic leads going to work when you roll them out in a straight line and they pickup AM from local radio stations and other digital noise from the lighting and air-con?

[@DaveRat]

Its quite amazing how well a shielded Cat5e rejects interference. Not only due to the shield but also the twisted pairs are twisted so much more accurately and have more twists than mic cables.

[@shardug]

have you used cat7 cables yet? just wondering if the specs are better or not.

[@DaveRat]

Not tested but should be better, will need to test to know for sure though

[@chuckliu3620]

Hey Dave, thank you for your test, that means a lot to me, would you mind telling me what kind of device do you use to generate 48,96 and 192kHz signal?

[@DaveRat]

I think that was a whirlwind aes tester

[@fstopspictures8834]

HI dave do i just need a rms multimeter and sine wave generaor to calibrate a home studio or do i need an audio analizer and some difficult stuffs like an osciloscope

[@DaveRat]

There are free and inexpensive analyzer apps for your phone

[@andrewillingworth]

As an amateur novice is their any difference between an xlr mics cable and a snake cable?

[@DaveRat]

an audio snake cable is multiple shielded twisted pairs in a bundled cable and an XLR cable is a single twisted pair shielded cable. Both do the same thing except an XLR is one channel and a snake cable can be 2 to 56 channels or more. The snake cables typically use thinner wires and less insulation as well as have an overall protective jacket but minimal protective jacketing between the channels. The added size and distance between the wires in mic cable can be beneficial. Or another way to look at it would be to compare snake cable to super thin mic cable wiring as is used in wiring for installations.

[@andrewillingworth]

@@DaveRat so the thickness is a difference?

[@jimjimx5418]

Have you compared sat 6, 6a, or 7?

[@DaveRat]

Yes and the higher level cat cables perform even better

[@sanchocabatay]

can i use shielded or sheathed cat5?

[@DaveRat]

Shielded ca5

[@Gabovom]

What brand is your cable tester?

[@DaveRat]

I think that was a whirlwind

[@danielheinemann4356]

How about the Signal loss the other way around? Means line/mic Signal down an AES cable? Does this matter?

[@DaveRat]

I kind of cover that in this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/gYvUoHRnZ7adqJo

[@danielheinemann4356]

@@DaveRat Ahhh I see, Dave. Thanks a lot! So would you say that we better use AES (110 Ohm) digitale Cable instead of mic (75 Ohm) cables for Line/Mic Signals in a multicore for example a Tourlock 25pin?

[@DaveRat]

@@danielheinemann4356 in the test that I've done the mic cable perform just as well as the AES cable of the same diameter for AES.

[@DaveRat]

Here is another aes test that's a bit different that may have helpful info in case you've not seen it kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZLWdWpridh2m7M

[@danielheinemann4356]

@@DaveRat Did you ever made a comparison of cables where the pF between the wire and the Shield is higher then the other? That would be interesting About the loss for a cable with for example 200pF and 100pf between Shield and wire.

[@diegosmarinhobr]

I have one question: I want to record a drums set with 6 microphones, but my USB audio interface, Scarlett 6i6, just has 4 1/4" inputs. Can this snake combine the 6 microphone signals into 4 outputs so I can record them all with just the 4 1/4" inputs?

[@danclarkson3468]

This is the AES3 standard, isn't it?

[@DaveRat]

+Dan Clarkson yes

[@danclarkson3468]

+Dave Rat very interesting! I was always told you were supposed to use DMX Cable for AES.... this video gets bookmarked methinks!

[@DJMuNiO]

Tester Model ? Name ?

[@brunomotta15]

Less Khz, less quality? Thaks :D

[@aaronsoundguy6915]

Has anyone tried this with AES 50? I have had problems the the M32 and x32 stage boxes down cat cable past 100meters.

[@neta1233211]

Max length for AES50 is 100 meters / 328 feet. if you want more, you need to use the klark teknik DN9610 Repeater.

[@BigHeartedMan65]

Hey , want to sell any of the Whirlwind 6 Channel 75 foot Sub Snakes ? I had someone walk off with my whole trunk of sub snakes and I need to replace them all .. I know who took them . But Without any proof the cops say there is nothing they can do to help me . All I can do is Wait for him to use them . Thankfully they are all engraved with my name .

[@ghighrolla711]

Im having clocking issues with one of my aes cables to my mains. Im using a jbl and cables tested fine but at 96k one of my main sides pops. Any thoughts? Thank you

[@DaveRat]

How long is the cable and what type of cable is it? If it's an AES cable is it that thin type or is it the thicker like a regular mic cord? The thin ones are good for short distances but actual thick mic cable will work better than a thin AES cable for longer distances and a thick AES cable will work even better than that

[@ghighrolla711]

Its a thin aes but its only a 6 foot . Its jumping 2 amp racks together via left stack/ right stack. Looping out. Aes 2 is the the problem. Even if i swap them its aes 2. Thanks for your response

[@DaveRat]

Cool cool I'm glad you got it sorted or at least figured out