[TF2] In Defense Of The Ambassador

[@LazyPurple]

This made me realize I kind of wish I using the amby anyway because it's more fun. I admit I kind of of blindly accepted the nerf as too much (and l'etranger's buff too great) and moved on. You've convinced me to brush it off for real, unless I ever miss a shot in which case it's back to l'etranger

[@lEGOBOT2565]

Hi there

[@mineflow4139]

Ello Purple Man

[@fishstickonastick-gaming]

Probably should have mentioned the fun factor in there somewhere. I've had a few people point out that there were a few times where a headshot was unnecessary and I could have just gone for Revolver bodyshots, but the dopamine receptors in my brain disagree.

[@mrstudent9125]

I hope you are doing good man

[@manwithgun9768]

Hello all mighty purple

[@milesedgeworth4845]

“You are Automatically at an advantage if they are unaware of you” Jose Gonzalez 2004 begs to differ as he dodges every shot from behind without any effort or knowledge of the spy being there

[@davidhong1934]

*Not Pictured:* Jose.Gonzalez.2004 landing 4 consecutive headahots on 2 cloaked spies, another Sniper, and xXx_Killer_DemoMain_420_xXx

[@werock991]

Everyone knows Jose Gonzalez 2004 mastered ultra instinct long ago, you can't use him as an example >:(

[@projekt2745]

May I ask what this joke about "Jose Gonzalez 2004" is? I've seen it around before, but never had the context. Was he an infamous hacker? Or just someone that was infamously lucky?

[@davidhong1934]

@@projekt2745 "Jose Gonzalez 2004" is a running gag from Soundsmith TF2 videos. As you guessed, it's a new player who's incredibly lucky. In most cases, it refers to a sniper who is somehow topping the leaderboards despite not knowing most of the game controls. In the most extreme cases, Jose Gonzalez 2004 doesn't even know what game he's playing, yet there he is, dodging all enemy fire and accidentally going on a 12-man killstreak.

[@keromora]

Its so much harder for me to kill people if they don’t know where I am. They just happen to move out of my crosshair at the perfect moments like everyone i fight is Mr. Miyagi

[@shadowman_44]

Fun fact: The Ambassador has unfinished code in the files that would make it compatible with *war paints* and Valve just abandoned it.

[@CyrogenicNation]

Good, it's already perfect as is. War paints would've covered the cool engravings.

[@MrNoahlindsay]

@@CyrogenicNation my thoughts exactly

[@zesnowpea6347]

@@CyrogenicNation counter point, frozen aurora and small town bringdown Edit: and igloo and plaid potshotter

[@Qobp]

The gun is so similar in silhouette to the revolver that I prefer it being identifiable from its engravings

[@WiiWarrior933]

Good, 99% of war paints look awful

[@Treblaine]

Ambassador is one of those weapons where if it had ALWAYS been like this is would be way more popular today. But it's competing with its past self rather than competing with the other options available today.

[@TF-Boom]

Agreed

[@heavydutydavid5020]

Disagreed

[@RogerDuckman]

The duality of man

[@Biggroundsley]

Disagreed

[@heavydutydavid5020]

@@Biggroundsley Oh yay, someone else who holds the true old opinion and doesn't jump on KZbinr bandwagons.

[@canman7249]

While I admittedly have a more 2nd hand perspective on this, it seems to me that despite the Ambassador and the L'tranger being as close to polar opposites as spy's revolvers go, they have something notable in common: they both bolster one half of spy's gameplay, picks with the Ambassador and stealth with the L'tranger.

[@angrydragonslayer]

And then you have the diamondback that hampers you in exchange for crits And the enforcer that just hampers you (good training pistol tho)

[@aimboat709]

@@angrydragonslayer enforcer is good for killing wrangled sentry’s vac meds DR spies razorback snipers. It’s mainly used for killing wrangled guns but enforcer actually has more of a place in the meta than amby at least in regards to highlander.

[@highmedic2351]

What half of gameplay?

[@angrydragonslayer]

@@aimboat709 in what scenario would it make sense to shoot a wrangled sentry? Vac med... Is valid, assuming you're not in front of their pocket and actually need to shoot the med for your team Dr spies.... It doesnt actually work on the cloak resistance Razorback... Just use ambi... Or db.... In most scenarios where you'd fight one where the 30% lower ttk matters, you'll not have your disguise up and then it's worse than stock

[@canman7249]

@@highmedic2351 1st Half: picks 2nd Half: Stealth

[@reagansido5823]

What really stuck with me was "why do you care about dps? You're a fucking pick class." That really just makes sense to me. It's about getting the one and only shot you need. Not doing more per clip but needing more time that spy just doesn't get most of the time.

[@Timeward76]

That's like, the most important line of this video. Spy's DPS almost doesnt matter at all because, if a spy is shooting at you, chances are he's looking down the barrel of whatever much more powerful gun youre carrying.

[@AuroraTheFirstLight]

Agree, like what the fuck you are doing for the dps to matter? You always should be fighting light classes or enemies so weakened 2 quick shots will do the job

[@Tjprower]

Why do you play demoman as a melee class with a shield? Why do people play sniper as a frontline class with the bow and bushwacha? We call these things subclasses, and DPS Gunspy is something some of us actually want.

[@HargMentor]

@@Tjprower demoknight has whole ass builds and items that actually support the subclass, bow and bushwacha are whole ass builds and synergies that support the subclass. Gun spy is literally just that a spy with a gun there's no synergy, nothing, it's not a "sideclass"

[@Quirked_Up_Cowboy]

@@Tjprower Okay then just use the diamondback even if it goes to the nerf many people want with just minicrits instead of full crits then use that. Also sure it's a "Subclass' but unlike the other 2 subs you mentioned valve purposefully made those for a reason DPS gun spy is just a accident due to the diamondback being so op which is why when they actually cared for the game they nerfed the ambassador which is literally valve saying they do NOT want spy played that way if you want to go ahead but even valve is trying to teach players not to. It's a lot like fatscout, valve doesn't really want it but people still go out of the way to do it even though it's playing the class "wrong" but not as much of a problem.

[@purplehaze2358]

"Everything changed when the fire nation attacked" -The amby got changed during the pyro update I see what you did there.

[@dubhog]

OMG YOU'RE SO INTELLIGENT BRO,HOLY SHIT! No

[@codemeister1369]

@@dubhog lighten up man. It was a subtle joke. Acknowledging it is fun.

[@SpaceCowboy1627]

That Dr. Bright is a spy!

[@dubhog]

@@codemeister1369 doesn't look like it to be honest also lost possibility for a r/woooosh

[@prediculous8059]

@@dubhog That's... Not how r/whoosh works?

[@pixel3936]

The only real thing that still holds the ambassador back, is that the diamondback exists. Effectively just a pre-nerf ambi if you’re not a terrible shot

[@Full_Throttle_Axolotl]

You arguably don't even need to ba that good of a shot since headshots aren't a requirement

[@rockowlgamer631]

All they have to do is nerf the crits to mini crits for the Diamondback and its much better

[@manologamerss5801]

@@rockowlgamer631 Did you mean: Worthless piece of junk? It's only about 15% more damage for a minicrit with the diamondback in comparison to a non-crit stock revolver shot.

[@CrabKFP]

@@rockowlgamer631 like, make it impossible to shoot it if you are disguised and have a cooldown when you finished being cloaked. That way you can see the crit (like the Southern Hospitality) and it is a bit more fair to fight. You basically are forced to be gunspy if you want to unload all your crits

[@ha2kon539]

@@rockowlgamer631 spy is the weakest class in the game, even with the diamondback. The scorth shot for Pyro and the diamondback for spy are one of the reasons why they have even a chance against the other classes

[@TARINunit9]

"The people I run into are already hurt to some extent" Preach this! This goes for EVERY class. You can't model every single interaction in this game around classes at full health. This is why I take the Shahanshah seriously as a Sniper melee: not every Sniper matchup is going to be full health Sniper vs full health Spy/Scout. Maybe a Soldier bombed you and only has 80 health left, that actually sounds pretty common as a matchup

[@aimboat709]

Why not just 2 shot them with the revolver then?

[@Sparkz1607]

This is actually the reason why I use the Solemn Vow as a Medic. I know which enemies I can kill and which ones I can't.

[@flooku987]

@@Sparkz1607 I respect that m8

[@Eye_Of_Odin978]

@@Sparkz1607 The Solemn Vow is kinda underrated actually, mostly because the blatantly OP Ubersaw exists. The Vow lets you know when to stand and fight vs when to cut and run, and as a class that can't fight too well on his own like Med, that's a really good upside. Glad to see more players taking the Vow's utility seriously and making the most of it.

[@dansmith6300]

By this logic, the enforcer is good then, and you can't argue otherwise.

[@TheAweDude1]

I remember I was on a highlander team in like 2014, way pre nerf, and the spy on our team actually used the default revolver. His reasoning was that, on HL, his job is Medic elimination. If he can't get in backstab range, then the default is much easier and faster to kill the medic. The Amby just barely gets the 150 with a headshot and bodyshot, but the Medic's regen sometimes scuffs that math. The revolver has a much more consistent three hit kill, with a lot more room for regen.

[@El.fish.the.chocolate]

"INSERT MEET THE SNIPER THEME" Professional had standats

[@ThatGuyLachlan]

I returned to TF2 in the last week and I found that I finally warmed up to this weapon. I guess it takes a pair of fresh eyes to appreciate the Ambassador, and to appreciate GunSpy in general. Seriously, if you train your accuracy and have any amount of patience, this is a worthwhile weapon. Thank you Fish, the community needs some non-meme takes on this weapon

[@jackingwads7513]

They need better takes on most weapons

[@thatguybrody4819]

now try out The Classic

[@darthvaderbutwayshittier7054]

Bro how tf is your comment 14 hours old

[@thebushbros6626]

@@darthvaderbutwayshittier7054 Something something memebership allows early viewing

[@ReySchultz121]

How is this 15 hours ago?

[@LordKelvinX2086]

0:40 "Until the L'Etranger was buffed to have a passive benefit of a longer cloak, this was about the only revolver you'd actually see equipped whether or not the Spy was even good with it." *laughs in Dr. Enforcicle*

[@ReblastheSpy]

Slurgi flashbacks

[@catke590]

Didn't play TF2 at that time, but after Lister's video about it, I can hear that name spitting fear and frustration out of the ones fighting against it.

[@zesnowpea6347]

*lehotoeto

[@Ghost13-]

How was it back then?

[@catke590]

@@Ghost13- You can watch Lister's video of spy for more information. Short story: You could 2 shot light classes with Enforcer, have 3 whole seconds of 100% fire resistance with Spycicle and the old Dead Ringer (busted)

[@lorrmaster4778]

Just a note. The problem with the razorback isn't that you can't deal with snipers sitting next to spawn. Those guys can be taken out with any revolver. The problem is when you are on Uncletopia where every sniper is sitting right next to their entire team or a sentry nest. Now killing them with a revolver is really hard and basically a suicide play in most cases. Plus most spy knives have abilities that trigger on backstabs.

[@VagueCastle649]

It's like only two knives that have the "on backstab" benefits.

[@nikolaitheundying]

@@VagueCastle649 3 of the 5 actually

[@Kapnohuxi_folium]

"Just shoot the sniper" My brother in christ, their combo is standing right there.

[@VagueCastle649]

@@nikolaitheundying If you're talking about the spy-cicle, that's considered a downside.

[@lorrmaster4778]

@@VagueCastle649 YER, Big Earner, and Kunai all rely on backstabs to trigger their upsides. Unless you plan on butterknifing the sniper with 100 health.

[@MusicMemes2009]

Tbh the ambi is the only spy primary that makes you have the most fun out of all of the others

[@ChaoticTeen16]

I can fully admit to using the Diamondback purely because I can't aim worth a damn

[@ewanb1086]

@@ChaoticTeen16 play csgo it will help

[@ZyroShadowPony]

It helps me practice to aim better

[@cecilharvey2005]

I like using amby because I tend to suck at getting consistent backstabs and sapping stuff (plus I like using weapons that require me to put in the effort to get good at a general skill rather than encourage me to do something that other weapons already do).

[@Davtwan]

The damage scaling wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be (although the “random” nature of it sucks). Another benefit people miss out is that refire time. This technically makes The Ambassador reset its refire spread faster than other revolvers. (This is why, despite being an accurate weapon, revolvers miss quite a few times when you hold down the fire button.)

[@Squalidarity]

To be fair, the default crosshair doesn’t really help with that :/

[@DuckieMcduck]

it's 1/4th of a second faster (0.250s)! Wow! Come on dude.

[@VagueCastle649]

@@DuckieMcduck It's also gradual. So waiting a millisecond or two will make your next shot more accurate.

[@DuckieMcduck]

@@VagueCastle649 I cannot tell if this is sarcasm. If you're comparing the difference with other revolvers, then a gradual difference in milliseconds means nothing. If it wasn't a gradual difference, it would still mean nothing because the average human reaction time is roughly the same amount of tiny time which also means close to nothing in practice.

[@jmurray1110]

Then use the enforcer it’s got the same recharge time, doesn’t have a savage penalty and is just better than the current ambi because unless your using the YER could could disguise and take out targets like snipers far easier

[@PeacefulRises]

“In Defense of the Ambassador” Out of the context of TF2, it could be mistaken for something political

[@zrdtc]

in defense of russian ambassador

[@ianfuller-thomson8599]

Or about the game coup

[@filthycasual6118]

Diplomatic immunity, go!

[@Manglet762]

Some debates in tf2 have the same energy of debating politics so it makes sense.

[@HUNKMrDeath-lt7kq]

I played this one game, got a A.I I got to name, named her Anarchy someone asked if I liked her. . . “Ah yeah of course I like anarchy!”

[@doctoberfest1487]

I cannot wait until somebody makes a compilation of FishStick saying “L’etranger”

[@valkie9781]

You can be that person if you really wanna be

[@doctoberfest1487]

@@valkie9781 yeh i know maybe some day

[@FrostedPoke]

The Ambassador nerf was a blessing in disguise long-term. Imagine the current bot crisis, except the bots can turn invisible, disguise as the enemy team, and fake their death. Yeah. Sounds like it *sucks,* doesn't it?

[@davidhong1934]

Don't forget the part where they spam the "your mother" voiceline after each environmental kill

[@ha2kon539]

That type of bot would be way worse then the sniper bots we already have because it can't instakill

[@starmaker75]

Can you image if we have aimbot spies with pre nerf ambassador and pre nerf dead ringer, Jesus Christ that would frustrating or god for bid the 2013-2017 Darwin danger shield with aimbot snipers

[@FantasmaNaranja]

for a long time i assumed the ambie nerf was because of hacking spies 50% of hackers i'd met in game pre jungle inferno were ambassador spies 49% snipers and one direct hit soldier that thought he was so slick and undetectable cause he was using the direct hit even though he'd spin wildly while shooting and kept killing people directly behind him

[@FrostedPoke]

@@ha2kon539 It's a bit easy to say now that the Ambassador would be worse than a Sniper Rifle for the bots, but the Sniper Rifle actually doesn't have that much of a difference for attack interval at best, and is actually *worse* overall. Ambie spies aiming at a Heavy takes 3 shots to kill assuming each shot was a headshot. At .6s per attack, it'd take 1.8s to kill, compared to 1.5 for the Sniper assuming zero charge, and even then it'd need to charge for a bit to actually meet the 300 damage threshold for a headshot to cleanly kill, so it'd actually take longer for the sniper bot to kill than the hypothetical ambie bot.

[@arrowtongue]

the most infuriating thing about the focus on dps specifically is it acts like everything in the game has like, 1000 hp, when the majority of fights will be with targets under 200, the rocket launcher's dps is only ~150, and the Minigun's is somewhere in the 500s, how come soldiers don't kill people 5 times slower than heavies usually? because shooting two rockets ends an engagement, and you can do that before the ramp up and etc of the minigun comes into effect, all games FPS are played practically, not by numbers

[@aimboat709]

You know this is actually an argument for amby being bad right? Cause the argument with dps is that you could just 3 shot a scout instead of 2 shotting them with amby. The whole argument is you can reach important damage thresholds with revolver about as fast as amby and it’s WAY more consistent.

[@RealMiniLink]

@@aimboat709 If you're picking a scout as your target of choice then you have other problems to think about when playing spy

[@aimboat709]

@@RealMiniLink i picked scout because he is the most likely to be chasing you down where you would actually be forced to use your gun to fight but if you want to talk about going for picks sniper and med also get 3 shot at full hp and any other targets you would actually go for would be hurt players of less than 100 hp anyway so within 2 shotting for revolver. Being able to inconsistently 1-2 shot players when you could just 2-3 shot them in about the same amount of time and much easier/consistently is irrelevant and why amby is just trash.

[@ilovethefreezespell6531]

@@aimboat709if the scout is close enough to kill you your amby is gonna be doing some serious headshot damage fucking retard

[@ElPolloLoco7689]

@@aimboat709 If you play a game to live and die on its meta, I genuinely have no clue how you can have fun with it. The Ambassador is kinda like the Loose Cannon in the sense that they're less viable than most other picks, but they can be hella fun to play. And that's coming from someone who aims worse than a mole with crippled arms.

[@nocow4167]

The ambassador is real good for stab whiffs on light classes. The damage your butterknife does is enough to allow you to oneshot them with the amby. And since your already in close range cause you fucked up the stab all you need to do is just land the shot.

[@rettwat]

or you could just reliably three shot the light class with the revolver, yk better than gambling a backstab

[@shagarumedic]

@@rettwat yeah, but is that REALLY as cool as that sweet *102 CRITICAL HIT*

[@rettwat]

@@shagarumedic debatable

[@ralphthejedimaster]

@@rettwat and very likely die before getting all 3 shots off, do you really not think deleting them before they have the chance to fight back at all has value?

[@rettwat]

@@ralphthejedimaster you dont die instantly unless there are shit tons of classes nearby, but why even suicide for the kill there its just a waste of your life

[@inkmime]

Also "It'll kill ya once but only once" Oh trust me it's *never* just once with a sniper who can aim and is positioned behind his team like he should be, it is absolutely *never* just once lmao

[@fishstickonastick-gaming]

Sure, but that wasn't really what I was talking about. I specifically mentioned a Sniper in a dumb spot that's way out of position to the point of being behind enemy lines. A Spy doing the same thing with the old Ambassador could actually get away with doing that.

[@Davtwan]

A.K.A. A map with poorly balanced sightlines.

[@Impalingthorn]

I still argue the Sniper is fundamentally the most broken class. Not that any single class pisses me off, but it's hard to argue that a character who can instant kill almost any class with their only barrier being whether or not you can aim for the head isn't busted. The bot crisis has exposed this problem for what it is and even before the bots a good Sniper genuinely would make you feel like there was no counterplay because, unlike other shooters, TF2 is about corridors and tightly controlled arenas as opposed to huge landscapes offering obscure and safe methods of traversing the map like you'd see in an EA game. This isn't an indictment against TF2 by any measure, but I look at this the same way I look at fighting games where just because there's a execution barrier there doesn't make a busted character balanced; there will be people that bypass that execution barrier and will feel untouchable because the mechanics (Frame data, hit stun, etc) are just on their side at that point. Sniper one shotting people in the head is fine in my opinion, but I definitely think the mechanics should be tweaked. There was a reason a lot of shooters around the 2010's started incorporating that "Breathing" mechanic where when you scope in, the rifle's aim needs to be steadied before firing a straight shot.

[@mousejumper12]

Sniper can feel broken in a lot of scenarios, but it can 100% come down to the way a map is designed. For example, on maps like Harvest or Wutville, the sightlines are long, unbroken and you HAVE to push through the sightline. On a much more manageable map like Upward or Steel, there are clearly cut ways to avoid a sniper altogether. For example, on Upward 2nd, if a sniper is holding the upper hill, the opposing team can go under and flank, and vice versa. Meanwhile, on Harvest, the sniper can see every possible entrance on the map from a variety of places. On Upward, Sniper is a fairly balanced class that comes down to how a team can be coordinated. On Harvest, Sniper is an obscenely broken class that needs to be removed from the game.

[@theasianthatsbetterthanyou8324]

@@Davtwan I'm sorry I don't think 99% of TF2 players like to play on Junction

[@krysys9703]

I don't know why but it feels like people forget that Spy can SEE ENEMY HEALTH and since he has the positioning tool known as the Invis Watch and Disguise Kit to get where he needs to be and when. He knows that he can kill anyone below 100 health at mid-range. Spy being able to see enemy health is the entire point of his class, it's so when you're invisible and see a potential target you can go "they're weak! nows my chance!". Not for a frag montage where you run in with the sickest trickstab (though that is fun). Though if I'll be frank, I'm of the belief that Spy should still be rewarded in some form from hitting the head at long range, so I'd have the minimum crit damage this weapon can deal be effective at any range instead of having this invisible wall where crits on headshots no longer work.

[@okey6470]

“They’re weak nows my chance” your chance for what? They still would have been dead from a backstab either way and trying to gun them off would get you absolutely VIOLATED if they (or their team) realizes you’re there

[@krysys9703]

@@okey6470 Okay maybe I didn’t phrase it right the first time Spy can see enemy health and he can cloak to where he’s behind enemies and basically gets the first hit in The Ambassador if aimed properly turns surpasses Spy’s maximum damage on the first hit from around 40 to 50-102 depending on the distance away from your target. Seeing any target at 100 health or below allows the Spy to decloak, dispatch them in a single shot and then cloak again. A ranged backstab that deals much less damage but doesn’t put you in the range of other enemies. Spy is a pick class. The Ambassador is a picking orientated sidegrade. Hell even if it doesn’t kill the enemy, that 100 damage ain’t nothing to scoff at and can easily result in an assist kill.

[@GabrielAKAFinn]

@@krysys9703 >Seeing any target at 100 health or below allows the Spy to decloak Is that like an unspoken rule of engagement? As far as I know first you have to see if you're not going to melt as soon as you decloak from someone else looking at you or hearing the cacophony of the decloak noise. Besides that, what the ambi does in 1 shot, the revolver does in 2, and faster. What exactly is the advantage? You can cloak 0.3 second faster on the one shot?

[@krysys9703]

@@GabrielAKAFinn The enemy can't retaliate if they're dead. Also the argument you're making about decloaking isn't revolver dependant it's invis watch slot dependant and is it's own skill independent from the ambassador

[@GabrielAKAFinn]

@@krysys9703 It's not dependent on you at all. This is one of the reason why spy sucks so much. It's entirely dependent on the environment, IE, the spy can only gun "pick" if the target is literally alone, close, hurt AND unaware. In this situation, who cares if you take one amby shot, or two revolver shots?

[@Spiffyo]

There's honestly two issues I've had with the ambassador nerf. 1. Sniper still gets the cqc counter, IE the Bushwacka, that you literally activate it's upsides by jarate and cleaners carbine. 2. The diamondback is literally better than stock, while the ambassador is a sidegrade now, it made the nerf pointless as it just made the diamondback the new 2 for 1 death pick.

[@roboscout64]

One thing being imbalanced does not mean another thing should be imbalanced as well. The solution to the problems you are complaining about is to nerf the bushwacka and the diamondback, not let the ambassador stay broken.

[@Spiffyo]

@@roboscout64 Yeah, and I was saying that the Ambassador does need a nerf, but the problem is those two weren't nerfed, even after Blue Moon bring the final balance changes to weapons(for the better).

[@juansebastianpulidovelasco2195]

@@roboscout64 Bushwacka is fine, actually. The only problem people actually have is because of Jarate and how easy is spam it. If, let's say, jarate didn't exist, nobody would complain about the Carbine + bushwacka combo, since you need to put effort and risk with an objectively worse deffault secondary in order to get the power of the melee.

[@lordpumpkinhead265]

@@juansebastianpulidovelasco2195 And, to make matters worse, there are only a select few reasons not to use Jarate over any of Sniper's offensive secondaries because it's just that effective to use. When there's a huge push from the enemy team, all a competent Sniper main has to do is lob his urine jar, and suddenly that huge push gets vaporized by minicrit damage ALONG WITH a few dying to the Sniper himself. While Jarate shouldn't be removed, it should *DEFINITELY* receive a rework into how spammable it is, similar to the Mad Milk.

[@rettwat]

bushwacka sucks jesus dude, you can just gun him down out of his range

[@yukowolfang8645]

Hey, that's me who got you at 13:40! :D I think I remember that match. You and the other spies made our whole team so paranoid. Great video by the way. Love this game and the people who still play it.

[@pawnopies]

"Spy and Sniper are countered by communication" Gee if only that existed in pubs.

[@unusualspycrab332]

The razorback might not be a hard counter to spies, but when a razorback sniper is in a sentry's sightline, it gives me a headache. Especially when you decide to ignore the sniper to focus on the engineer, or the other classes, and he ends up headshotting you before you get a stab. This happens way too often, and it's bs

[@bruschetta7711]

Add that one pyro who unironically enjoys to babysit the engineer I get that it's a noble thing to do such teamwork instead of trying to get kills, but when you play Spy it just looks like the enemy pyro really fucking hates you

[@airplanemaniacgaming7877]

@@bruschetta7711 they probably do, to be fair.

[@emppudud5692]

@@bruschetta7711 :))))

[@bageltoo]

I really don’t get the dev’s thought process behind the razorback. Sniper’s weakness is supposed to be tunnelvision, so why give him a “get out of backstab free” card?

[@mooniethegoofy]

@@bageltoo well it was made in the sniper vs spy update. And alot of snipers complained about being free backstabs to spies, so thats why the razorback was made, with its counter. The Ambasador.

[@Small_child_punter]

Precision was never my thing. I was always more of a empty-my-whole-clip-into-one-area sort of guy.

[@JoNarDLoLz]

Chad beggars

[@epicassassin8502]

Then I don’t really think spy is your class, because he is a pick class so pyro, heavy, or soldier come more into that style than spy

[@UNALLOYEDSLOP]

Then why are you playing spy

[@Small_child_punter]

@@UNALLOYEDSLOP yeah why would I ever touch a character I’m not good at in a game. Thats a stupid question.

[@purplehaze2358]

I've never liked the notion that sniper being able to one-shot most of the classes instantly at close range is balanced by the fact that it "takes skill". Sandman+cleaver combos also took skill to pull off, yet those were fucking infuriating.

[@starmaker75]

Yeah, that the problem with sniper, with generous ammno pool and reloading, a good sniper can be the most frustrating thing to deal with in game. You don’t have that munch of a open until you get very close and even then, he can quick-scope your ass/head.

[@privatepessleneck]

or how with jarate and a bushwacka the sniper can suddenly be super dangerous in melee range. It's kind of annoying how the *long range fighting* class might need to be treated like he's radioactive. It's just annoying.

[@theodoresmith3829]

It's not just that it takes skill, it's a gamble every single time Maybe I'm just a bad sniper, but I've never had a problem with close range quickscopes specifically because there doesn't seem to be any way to consistently hit them, and (unless they're using the J&B) that's the only chance they get to instakill before they get owned

[@hoonterofhoonters6588]

It's a bad argument. Should we bring back all of Pyro's old combos just because it took skill to pull them off? For everyone else in the game, the old combos were a massive pain to fight. It didn't even feel as if you were capable of fighting back most of the time. That reminds me of something else....

[@thatguybrody4819]

it's why I use The Classic. you can't get pissy at me if I'm using the "Worst" rifle he has. I say it's the most balanced and every kill feels earned.

[@bonafikam]

3:28 "AND PUT YOU IN A MEAT GRINDER UNTILL ONLY YOUR EYEBALL..." The Jerma streak continues.

[@JoNarDLoLz]

His influnce is spreading, it's getting scary how much his meat grinder philosophy has influenced people

[@JackRabbittm]

I think my biggest problem is that they nerfed the ambassador but NOT the diamondback which gives you crits if you do what spy should be doing anyway. This was a very unfair nerf.

[@kR-qj7rw]

It wasn't a undeserving nerf lmao Amby needed that. The biggest problem with the diamondback is in theory it's worse since it has limited crits, and in theory a good spy will ALWAYS have crits if the soy has good aim, but on casual any decent spy can farm f2ps for free crits A longer reload time and half the clip would severely make the diamondback back into side grade

[@JackRabbittm]

@@kR-qj7rw I guess I worded my original comment poorly. I agree that the ambassador nerf was deserved. What I found unfair was that the diamondback didn't get a nerf as well. I would have nerfed that weapon alongside the ambassador.

[@defensivekobra3873]

Tbf the way you'd nerf the diamondback is probably different from the way you'd nerf the ambassador, people aren't really cloaking onto rooftops with the diamondback and playing a diet sniper with higher survivabillity, they are just kind of playing better spy who does the things a spy is already supposed to do and gets rewarded for it.

[@clownplayer7265]

@@defensivekobra3873 Like the Bazaar Bargain. You get rewarded for basically hitting headshots, something Sniper is supposed to do, allowing you to snowball.

[@BLZ231]

Personally the only thing I think is necessary to properly balance the diamondback is to give it a smaller clip, maybe 3 or 4, and have damage fall off. Though if they did those two things they should probably get rid of the minor damage penalty.

[@Niiue]

0:40 anybody gonna talk about that pyro just tanking the rockets to grasp the rhythm then FLICK AIRBLASTING out of nowhere before getting promptly shot to death??

[@ethanstyant9704]

"Amby has less dps" Ah yes that's why HEAVY is the best class in the game because of his high dps and not sniper

[@ruur1490]

102 damage on spy is really gud

[@Fin0fLenster]

I agree with the lack of counterplay and I think this is a sufficient reason to make the change. There are two key points that I don't agree with however: 1: The Ambassador was never overpowered. The Ambassador wasn't banned in competitive and didn't make Spy any kind of must-pick class in any game mode. Spy was still overall underwhelming even with the old Ambassador. 2: People aren't mad about the Ambassador "no longer being a straight upgrade over stock" they're mad about losing a core niche that the weapon once had (the long range damage option). It was a fun option and it's sad to see it be outright removed from the weapon.

[@grandinquisitor8335]

the real problem was with the dead ringers spammability it was stupidly annoying dealing with spies that could just instant recharge, the amby with the dead ringer was annoying.

[@SableUnderscore]

Love your "In defence of" series, fantastic videos

[@cheezemonkeyeater]

The ambassador doesn't need a defense, it's got diplomatic immunity.

[@starmaker75]

The only thing I’m annoyed at the ambassador nerf is that they didn’t do with the diamond back which you can said that it need that nerf more then the ambassador.

[@cajbajthewhite4889]

Diamondback should reward a backstab with 4 seconds of mini-crits so you just unload all your chambers like a western vagabond. It would be sweet.

[@VagueCastle649]

@@cajbajthewhite4889 A Mini-Crit diamondback does basically the same damage as stock. Stop trying to make it a shittier cleaner's carbine.

[@tangerinepaint3643]

@@VagueCastle649 Still more balanced than what we have now.

[@thebushbros6626]

@@tangerinepaint3643 And by making that unusable? Wow you should totally work at Valve.

[@dkoda840]

@@thebushbros6626 He prolly does

[@grfrjiglstan]

All of this assumes I'm capable of getting headshots at close range. Or any range, for that matter.

[@mariusssssss]

the reason dps mattered was bcs spy was not played like a pick class by a lot of players in prem at the time (toast, solid, inso, etc) and more success was found with using spy like a semi-sniper/scout (toast was season mvp for i forgot what season bcs of the gun-spy meta) forgot who said it but someone said something about how other classes have alt play styles and valve killed the gun spy w this nerf

[@kubsons0732]

this

[@ilovethefreezespell6531]

Video explained why gun spy was retarded my nigga

[@Nibelungenwarmongers]

Yeah, you're right, but community really hate spy, they're so retarded they think spy is op cause he can kill someone sometimes. They're idots and fish server is an example of tf2 players brainless

[@StoryTeller796]

6:00 The comedic timing. 4:10 So you saw the Sniper, you acknowledged the Sniper's presence, and yet you still allowed yourself to die to the Sniper, because you were in a position where the entire enemy team would've hunted you down if you went after the Sniper, along with the fact that being next to a respawned Heavy would not be the best for your health. ...

[@Tr0lliPop]

"In the end though, if people are gonna keep treating it like it's some garbage weapon, then... I don't mind being the one laughing in the end." That line had no reason to go so hard 17:35

[@baranxlr]

They should make the scorch shot able to get headshots: If the enemy's head hitbox is in the blast radius, you get a guaranteed crit. Seems balanced to me

[@LeoHeist03]

Yeah and the minicrits on burning targets should be turned to crits.

[@JustinWHY-zz7gz]

Sounds fun to fight against

[@Mayflyis]

Every weapon should have headshots

[@car-lz8us]

@@Mayflyis that seems interesting..

[@DinnerForkTongue]

As long as it doesn't use bounding boxes for determining headshot hits like the Lucksman does.

[@Norrsky]

The ambassador is still my go to spy revolver. Mainly because when I played it was un-nerfed. It was a bit of a culture shock playing TF2 again and having my Baby Faces Blaster be garbage

[@woahdotoah]

people aways fail to realise that at longer range it gets exponantially harder to hs with the amby. as a sniper, yes you have tunnel vision but, you have a zoom.

[@Raelyn]

Hah, didn't expect to see my frag vid in here. Much appreciated. I believe you didn't really give Sniper enough credit (Highlander more or less revolves around him), and that you sort of undercut the need for DPS at times as a Spy. I would also argue as well that Ambassador wasn't objectively better than Stock back in the day. If you witnessed power Revolver players like Evan, H.A.R.D, and Grenjabob in their hay day you would've been hard pressed to say that the Revolver was a downgrade to Amby. I will always believe that Amby was a sidegrade to the Revolver. Though I personally favored the Amby, I swapped between that and the Revolver fairly commonly. All that said though, I more or less agree with you. Amby is certainly still viable. Though I of course made use of it at long range, I will hold a certain pride in how much use I got out of it in close range compared to my peers in prem. I fully understand why it got nerfed, and I can sympathise with the idea that it was too good at what it was doing. Certain players like Toast ran fucking rough shot over HL with it. It is frustrating at certain ranges not being able to do the damage you did before, but the utility of being able to end a fight in a single shot or two is certainly still valuable in my opinion. To that end, I was probably the only Spy that used the weapon in the last HL Nations Cup. I found moderate success with it, got me out of a few tough pinches. My only gripe is that I wish there wasn't an arbitrary range where headshots straight up stopped working. Aside from that, I still find the weapon fun to use and gotten my exquisite share of dopamine from it in my last few videos. I miss the glory days of no-speed boost DR and old Amby, but what we have now is totally fine (especially considering we finally got some disguise fixes. Now if only they could fix the stupid fucking wallhacks on spawn).

[@mistabean9272]

wow people really left your comment in the dust lmfao, this is really good information and feedback. probably got lost bc it's not directly agreeing with what is said in the video lol

[@cyanideytcuriousseadoggo]

9:42 was that demoknight using the Dragonsoayer from Beserk? They aren’t Guts the Black knight

[@ZestyJesus]

"being skill based alone isn't enough to dictate that it's balanced" great now nerf sniper agreed that the amby is totally fine, old school spy mains are salty they can't deal 102 across the map and cloak away. also why are swords so big

[@fishstickonastick-gaming]

No :^)

[@elecman748]

Oh boy, I see a polemic arriving

[@ZestyJesus]

@@fishstickonastick-gaming Yes (^: :^) ()()()9::;9::;())))||||||

[@VagueCastle649]

@Astyl Because the spy could become a diet sniper whenever he wanted, has a shorter headshot cooldown, (.7 seconds shorter) and can easily escape from any danger in the blink of an eye whenever someone actually tries to approach him? Is that the explanation you wanted?

[@VagueCastle649]

@Astyl Spy simply has more escape options being the second fastest class in the game and a cloaking ability that brings his effective health up to 145, making rocket surfing more forgiving. In the time it takes for a sniper to respawn and get into position, the spy would have already repositioned and two-shot the engineer or medic. This can also be paired with the dead ringer to have a near guaranteed escape option and make spy impossible to approach and deal with. This, combined with the lack of even a laser dot, the ability to install a toggleable zoom script and the retention of backstab abilities, made a really oppressive diet sniper that can easily escape and does not require the protection of other teammates like sniper.

[@Ph0n3numb3r]

16:39 they are not "upset" because its not better than stock, they are annoyed that they cant headshot from far ranges, which in itself requires more skill to do. you are being punished for being better.

[@AtomizerBaT]

As a stock purist with 3500 hours, the Amby might actually be my favorite unlock simply because it always feels rewarding to do well with.

[@pogobod2128]

do you use stock grenade launcher

[@AtomizerBaT]

@@pogobod2128 yes I do, I have 3k kills on it.

[@joanaguayoplanell4912]

Do you use the Syringe Gun and the stock melees?

[@AtomizerBaT]

@@joanaguayoplanell4912 No, but Crossbow might as well be stock Same for Sandvich/Ubersaw As for melee, I use Gru on Heavy and whatever I need for Engineer because I have a ton of objectors I have started to experiment with unlocks more, I really like the Machina and the Whip

[@Boongur]

13:21 "When you can just, fuckin'-" *Death to the utmost degree*

[@Presofcamelot64]

I dont care what the amby does, I use it cuz it looks cool. "Engravings...provide no tactical advantage whatsoever........but they look cool"

[@VistuIan]

Woolensleevelet was probably talking more about its use in competitive, where it was mostly used at distance and not close range

[@EvilDeadFan1995]

I keep rewatching this for many reasons, but the best part is how flawlessly you incorporated the Joker clip. I always think of the line when using my Amby now!

[@Dat-Mudkip]

I do think the Amby should get "normal" crit damage at short-to-medium range, which is then reduced to mini-crits outside of, say, 400 hammer units (and still doing non-critical damage beyond 1600 hammer units). It would allow for more consistent damage that feels less randomized.

[@theodoresmith3829]

Yeah, having the damage be affected by thresholds rather than scaling would probably be better

[@Lorencio510]

The enforcer technically made the gun spy sub class more viable before it was nerfed into the ground

[@uphillwalrus5164]

People think dps and ttk are the same thing

[@inkmime]

honestly even 54 damage at minimum at mid range, the drop off range for a lot of other classes, is pretty damn good for getting someone to back off. It's not Demo levels of mid-range damage obviously but hot damn being able to outdamage a midranged shotgun blast while *still* being hitscan with no movement penalty like a heavy's minigun, it's pretty damn good all things considered.

[@bruschetta7711]

Imo it's still way too low, better find a better opportunity to secure the kill at a closer range, more often than not trying to get that 54 damage will get me spotted and killed in a matter of nanoseconds

[@inkmime]

@@bruschetta7711 I mean I did mention it was useful mainly for "getting someone to back off" which usually assumes you're making an escape of sort, not running directly at someone like a moron.

[@StupendousIdiot]

Also, if the 2 braincells moron think its a good idea to try to chase and kill an spy with an ambassador while they are below 54hp you get a free kill.

[@ebookie_meowda]

@@inkmime You act like they'll back off. They usually just outright blitz the spy the second they see them lol.

[@Handleneeds3ormorecharacters9]

4:30 here we see the wild Sniper main instinctively taunting after killing a Spy during a clutch humiliation after said Spy was kicking his ass before it. You can just feel the anger in that taunt key mash.

[@Average_Joker]

I think part of the reason why the ambassador is so overlooked nowadays is because of the Diamondback, which basically does what the old Amby did, but is easier to use due to not needing as precise aim and rewarding Spy for doing the things Spies generally do. As it stands, the Amby is a fine weapon, good for some situations, not good in others, a perfectly fine weapon all things considered.

[@remigusker6024]

I still miss the OG ambassador. :( It was fun shooting engis through their buildings.

[@dominikcz198]

3:52 I like how people say that the only counter to sniper is another sniper. Just look at the spy behind him.

[@ebookie_meowda]

Well, Razorback and Jarate + Bushwaka make that way harder. Especially if there's an engineer behind them. And before you say "that's teamwork", spy's entire point is to sneak among the entire enemy team to get key picks. The team should catch him BEFORE he gets the stab to counter him. Not invalidate him with a skilless unlock. This is why I have issues with the Homewrecker too. Pyro failed to protect the engineer nest. That thing is a get out of jail free card for bad pyros. Same deal with Spycicle. Pyro caught you. Your option should be to kill him before he burns you too much. Not equip an item and gain afterburn immunity.

[@Nibelungenwarmongers]

​@@ebookie_meowdayou're axtually have no way to kill even midskilled pyro as a spy. People talking about spy crutches, forgotting about crutches for other classes

[@getonleagueguys7557]

My issue with the ambassador nerf is that the Jarate bushwacka combo exists, why make the close range class bad at long range but keep the long range class good at close range? The jarate bushwacka combo is also my issue with the reserve shooter + airblast nerf, as well as the sandman + cleaver nerf. Valve removes/nerfs these combos/weapons that made the class the combos were attached to really good in a scenario where they shouldn't be. However they then keep the sniper combo because Gaben forbid they nerf sniper, I guess.

[@Absol7701]

I think they didn't nerf the bush and jarate because they are good separately (especially the bushwaka) but broken together

[@yew8707]

Additionally they kept the huntsman completely unchanged which also makes the sniper an incredibly powerful close range class, not to mention other classes have options to help them in fields they won't do well in otherwise such as the sandvich, and the gunslinger, and demos plethora of powerful melee options.

[@mariustan9275]

@@yew8707 I don't think its that powerful given sniper is still a light class, but the headshot hitbox is way too massive.

[@joanaguayoplanell4912]

​@@Absol7701jarate is completely broken by itself. Even if it had the Gas Passer limitations, with the added downsides of not gaining charge on damage and loosing the bar on death, it would STILL be broken.

[@venarius5872]

lets just say this. i've graduated from TF2, ages ago, alr, and i wasn't even a spy main. but playing this weapon has unironically made me decent at aim without me even trying to do so. this carried on into Mcree in overwatch, and now to the wingman in apex, all because i was gun spy in funny valve game.

[@tangerinepaint3643]

I think you'd love the Wingman Elite in Titanfall 2 or Hand cannons in Destiny 2 then.

[@JimmyMcgill869]

I feel that people calling the weapon "bad" is more of a drastic way of saying "underwhelming". The Ambassador is currently alright, but seeing as it's Spies hardest weapon to get really good with, it definitely is fair of people to want it to be reverted given that it allowed players to actually compete with amazing players. As for the "Spy shouldn't be Sniper" argument, that doesn't really mean anything since the Ambassador never made Spy into Sniper, in the same way a Demoman isn't a Soldier just because they both have explosive projectiles. As is though, Ambassador is pretty okay, but it could definitely be much better, and if I could personally pick a weapon to make Spies best weapon, I would definitely be down to revert the weapon just for that reason.

[@DarkerModeTV]

I love how fish went to mattpats recording closet to record this VO.

[@walterbrink5391]

0:29 “lets back up a bit” Definitely a zefrank1 reference

[@liamhobbs1401]

11:20 - "Why do you need to play in a way that's antithetical to 'x'?" *looks at battle medics, huntsman snipers, demo knights, gunslinger engis, trolldiers...*

[@SnivyTries]

Battle medics die horrible (deserved) deaths, huntsman snipers yes that sucks, demo knights are effective, gunslinger engies are effective, trolldiers are just useless...

[@iskawhiskers]

Battle medics are already hated by their own team because they're often (not always, just often) paying more attention to fighting than healing their team, which wouldn't be a problem if not for the fact that they're the single class primarily responsible for keeping their team alive under pressure. Not inherently antithetical to Medic's class design (of healing their team and changing the flow of battle opportunistically), there are just a lot of stupid battle medics. Huntsman snipers, as goofy and RNG as they are, still fulfill the Sniper's purpose as a pick class. The Huntsman is slow-firing, can be eaten by teammates at a certain range, and is _a projectile weapon._ People who're really good with it can be annoying, but they're not only more punishable, they still fit the bill of being a _pick class_ weapon -- you _can_ go on kill montages with it with some good aim as an amby spy could, but you're squishy and have near-zero (and mostly situational) defensive options, so you're literally putting yourself in harm's way to play aggressively. Not really antithetical to Sniper's class design (of opportunistically picking off priority targets from medium-to-long range), annoying as they are. Demoknights are an interesting one, because Demoman is a _defensive_ class. Sprinting around at high speeds with a high-damage sword and shield doesn't exactly sound like a very defensive playstyle, and you'd be _half_-right. The -*-shield-*- part of the sword and shield usually makes you able to eat more damage before going down (unless you're using the Tide Turner), and the Eyelander and Half-Zatoichi increase your maximum HP and heal you (respectively), making you hard to put down if you get any headway as a demoknight -- and serving quite well as a class that can hold their own and deny area control. This is even stronger if you play a hybrid knight, giving you access to both explosives _and_ at least one form of increasing your survivability. Not antithetical to Demoman's class design (of defending their team presence and maintaining area control). Gunslinger engies fall into the same offense-defense hybrid that demoknights fall into, in that their playstyle is very aggressive, but it complements their defensive class design extremely well. A stock engi definitely looks more like a defensive class through sheer, unmoving defense, but even with a more aggressive playstyle, a Gunslinger engi is still entirely capable of acting as a good support and defense for their team, as they don't lose access _or_ effectiveness on any of their other tools. The only difference is that instead of a solid, unmoving wall of firepower, you're offsetting your firepower in various locations to force the enemy team into having more to focus on than they might be able to handle; you know how the saying goes about the best defense being a good offense. Not inherently antithetical to Engineer's class design (of team presence and area control), there are just a lot of greedy gunslinger engies. Trolldiers is where it starts getting weird, and I had to think about how to respond for it. I will admit, with how the Market Gardener changes how you approach fights as a trolldier (as you need to be in melee range to do damage and you're at the mercy of knockback), you become a sort of pick class rather than an offensive class. It's rather difficult to pull off a garden, let alone reliably, and if you're playing specifically a _pure_ trolldier, you don't have the damage of a rocket launcher to fall back on. If you played a hybrid trolldier by switching out the jumper for a launcher that can do damage, you could still play relatively close to a normal solly, but I'm not sure if that counts for the sake of this argument. Here's the thing, though -- it *works.* Treating trolldier as an unlabeled pick class, it can be responded to like one, and it's *fun.* Deviates from Soldier's class design (of high-mobility, reliable damage) somewhat by being unreliable and making you squishier by environmental factors, but is given a pass because it's a reasonable subclass. The reason why pre-nerf amby being antithetical to its class design is such a big deal is because Spy's entire kit is focused around getting into unexpected, often dangerous, locations for their picks. As Fish even detailed himself, Sniper _can_ do this, to great effect, but the reason it isn't already an issue is because Sniper has very little in the way of defensive options -- just like was mentioned in the above bit about huntsman snipers, _you can just shoot them._ Spy, on the other hand, is entirely equipped for retreating from a hairy situation, with the natural damage and status reduction of invisibility watches (even stronger on DR), and the Spycicle's utility for avoiding Pyros. These are balanced _specifically_ around Spy weaving in and out of dangerous situations. To give him what is basically a mini sniper rifle means Spy can stay much, _much_ safer by staying at range and doing much more damage, all while being much harder to budge thanks to his defensive options being way more powerful without the danger of being up close and personal. It's a perfectly good question -- why do you need to turn Spy into Sniper with way more defensive options? tl;dr being antithetical to your class design is only bad *in Spy's case,* because Spy's kit is too strong when he's given a weapon that goes outside that kit's limitations

[@redshell9205]

9:18 you have NOT seen my spy gameplay it’s even worse than yours, you actually look good while playing him.

[@redshell9205]

Like really, the class is literally better with an unintended play style. Terrible class.

[@chrisbingley]

The Ambi went from a revolver that rewarded good players and punished bad players, to a downgrade to the Diamondback.

[@susragejr477]

🗿🗿🗿 how tf is getting headshots at any range punishing bad players

[@darthvaderbutwayshittier7054]

Bad players can't get headshots so it's just a straight downgrade for them.

[@theodoresmith3829]

Being a downgrade to the diamondback means nothing when the diamondback might as well be a direct upgrade to stock, and the entire point of the video is that it still rewards good aim and still punishes bad aim, it just stopped being effectively a direct upgrade itself

[@witchBoi_Connor]

Tell me you didn't watch the video without telling me you didn't watch the video

[@GabrielAKAFinn]

@@theodoresmith3829 Except the DB is a downgrade to stock in every way UNTIL you fulfill the condition, which is incredibly hard to do since spy is such a dogshit class.

[@SasnarDash]

"Being skill based alone isn't enough" - That's where I just simply have to call bullshit. It is 100% enough and even then it was already a contender for "item with most red text" in the game. Your contentions with woolens video are meh at best. You're looking at raw data and saying it's not so/it doesn't matter. 11:00 the answer to your question is consistency. Being consistent is fair more important. The stock revolver is consistently a better long range firearm than the sniper rifle revolver. Thus the gimmick for the ambassador is dead, it doesn't have a place anymore. Here is a fun point to think about; "If you get shot from across the map you expect to see a sniper" is what valve put. So by their logic if a sniper headshots you up close, are you expecting to see a spy with the ambassador? Or if a demoman flies in from the sky and meeles you, are you also expecting the spy with a balisong? Instead of simply changing the killfeed icon to just be an ambassador with a red crit outline so that a new player just sees they got crit by the ambassador and has no confusion, they fucked up the gun. 11:20 this is why subclasses are great. This is like telling a huntsman sniper "Why do you need to get up close to get more kills when sniper is all about sitting behind your team" or a demoknight literally the same thing or an engine with the gunslinger and so on and so so. If your point is that it is still good then it's just objectively not. Subjectively people can still think that it is fun but it's role is now filled by the stock revolver. Side note- the Dead Ringer nerf was just a lazy bad idea for an item that didn't need to be changed further. Pre J.I. dead ringer was perfect and people are just mad spy was allowed to have something to help him live as literally the weakest class in the game and it's not even close. To be fair I quit TF2 cold turkey (with 18,000 hours or so under my belt) within 20 minutes or less of jungle inferno going live in 2017, so if people have found a way to use the D.R. more effectively then I am unaware. This whole video boils down to "The ambassador isn't that bad guys, it still does stuff in the range where using the revolver was already better because of its consistency!"

[@remix2593]

the thing is though, as he already mentioned in the video why would you care about DPS on a revolver when you're primarily gonna be using spy's knife? I get that there's a subclass for "gun spy" where DPS may actually matter, which is whatever, you can hold whatever opinion you want regarding that subject, I don't play gun spy that often but in the case that you're gonna primarily be using the knife than I don't think the ambassador is a bad option, just recently it's gotta me out of a few tight situations where I needed to one shot an damaged target otherwise I would've died, this was something ONLY the ambassador would've accomplished for me, not the stock revolver, so saying that it "doesn't have a place anymore" feels like a stretch, it's a side-grade weapon, losing raw damage overall in exchange for quick burst damage assuming you can land your headshots, suggesting that it's now useless cause it can't headshot across the map anymore (which very few could've done anyway) is bullshit did it need a nerf? no, probably not, but is it a bad weapon? not by any means, it's just a bit situational, which in the case for me doesn't matter anyway cause I mainly focus on the knife, it's bodyshot damage isn't even that horrible either so as a spy who primarily uses the knife, but pulls out the revolver when need be, the weapon has worked out just fine for me

[@kubsons0732]

@@remix2593 "why would you care about DPS on a revolver when you're primarily gonna be using spy's knife?" maybe because in some situations you cannot physically get behind someone and you're going to be dead before getting a pick with a stock revolver?

[@ebookie_meowda]

@MrFoxyzin It never was. Stock and amby were equals back then. Look at H.A.R.D, for example.

[@weakestlink20]

14:45 What in the fuck is that ragdoll? Absolutely majestic.

[@demi-femme4821]

Now what SHOULD happen is that the Diamondback should get nerfed so that it's not basically a direct upgrade to the Ambi.

[@airplanemaniacgaming7877]

Direct upgrade to the pre-nerf ambi, you mean.

[@valkie9781]

I think the stored crits idea is good- but maybe it should be changed to have an active time like the hitmans heatmaker You know, have it be a chargable chain kill weapon that takes work to achieve the special state with So you cant do it constantly but do have a reward for living a long time as spy

[@misteryjeux]

@@valkie9781 this sidestep the actual problem : crits on demand. Can't have that on a class that can go invisible,period.

[@ReikuYin]

@@misteryjeux Crits on demand is kinda a stretch. You have to kill something first or sap. So not so much on demand. Again, sniper has crits on demand to, but that's his entire thing. Can he aim? Then he has Crits. The real issue is not stored crits but the fact that you can't tell when the spies might have them. So what I would do is just do one simple thing. If you have crits, you can no longer cloak or disguise. That makes it a risk reward situation. As Fish said, if you are un-digusied as a spy your likely dead. So now you use th vrits you earned up to fight out before cloaking again, or you can hod them and risk dropping them all, and people will see you with our crit effects they know ahead of time 'oh shi#.' and can chose to contest or retreat. Would also make map knowledge a bigger skill for spies, as if they want to 'gun spy with it after a big chain stab or something thy would need to know how to move around without being detected without built in invisibility.

[@valkie9781]

@@misteryjeux so should we remove the knife too then, or.....

[@trashman4500]

NGL fuck the “why do you care about DPS” argument because that’s the main reason why spies sleep on their revolvers in the first place. Do you need that more consistent burst from the Ambassador if you can trickstab everything sans Snipers with the Kunai?

[@The_Boondoggler]

The reason no one really complained that this weapon was overpowered is because it was such a popular weapon that everyone just saw all the other spy revolvers as underpowered compared to it. This is kinda the same thing that happened to the eyelander and crossbow

[@noyoucantsaythat]

Even in highlander, where all the spy players are expected to have top tier aim, the ambassador still wasn't dominant.

[@MechMK1]

The ambassador's nerf needs to be reversed, especially since the Diamondback is "fine as is". The Diamondback gives the same bonus as the ambassador for virtually no downside.

[@ez8156]

Disagree on a few things but good video. I think an important point you missed is comparing scenarios in which you would rather have the revolver over the amby. I think you made a good point about the amby being more attuned to spy’s intended playstyle with the nerf tho

[@loveshankme]

Good video. Spy is supposed to be a high risk/high reward class, so a revolver being the same idea SHOULDNT be blasted and trash talked for the same principle. I still use the Stock revolver or the L'EHODODO because my aim is shit on a GOOD day, but I still have a good amount of respect for the Ambassador.

[@DarkKnight179]

The problem is, the Ambassador as it is right now is very high risk very low reward. Your max reward is ... a slightly worse Revolver.

[@ralphthejedimaster]

@@DarkKnight179 it's only a worse revolver in a vacuum or DPS discussion, neither of which are accurate to an actual match at all. stock is consistent amby is skill based burst, the difference is clear and both are great

[@DarkKnight179]

@@ralphthejedimaster Its a worse revolver in a vacuum, in a DPS discussion AND in an actual match. There is no scenario in which it isnt a worse revolver. Stock is consistent burst, amby is unreliable worse burst. In a world where you can 3-shot all but 2 classes reliably in the same time Amby can 2-shot the light classes exactly, its just no comparison. Hell to give you an idea of how bad the amby is, its closer to the enforcer in power level than the stock revolver. Except the enforcer is also more reliable.

[@cyre77]

@@DarkKnight179 I'd argue that the ambassador is actually better in a vaccum, because if we were to take it with perfect aim, then you should look at ttk using the best options, not with only headshots all data is taken from the tf2 wiki, which means they are approximate and determined by community testing if we look at the health of classes, we get thresholds of: 125 ; 150 ; 175 ; 200 ; 300 at max ramp-up damage: the revolver deals 60 damage and fires every 0.5s the ambassador deals 102 damage on a heashot and 51 on a body shot, fires every 0.6s and takes 1s to recover from the spread stock ttk: ambassador ttk: 125: 1s 125: 0.6s (1 headshot 1 bodyshot) 150: 1s 150: 0.6s (1 headshot 1 bodyshot) 175: 1s 175: 1s (2 headshots) 200: 1.5s 200: 1s (2 headshots) 300: 2s 300: 2s (3 headshots) As you can see, at close range, the ambassador is objectively better at close range in a vaccum medium range (base damage): supposing perfect accuracy, which means no misses despite random spread, because we're in a vaccum reload time excluded revolver deals 40 ambassador still deals 102 on a headshot, 34 base damage stock ttk: ambassador ttk: 125: 1.5s 125: 0.6s (1 headshot 1 bodyshot) 150: 1.5s 150: 1s (2 headshots) 175: 2s 175: 1s (2 headshots) 200: 2s 200: 1s (2 headshots) 300: 3.5s (+1.13s reload) 300: 2s (3 headshots) the ambassador is by far objectively better at close to mid range, which is where it's supposed to excel at long range (max fall-off with crits): suppose perfect accuracy (no misses) and no reload revolver deals 21 damage ambassador headshots deals 54 on headshot and 18 on bodyshot stock ttk: ambassador ttk: 125: 2.5s 125: 1.6s (2 headshots 1 bodyshot) 150: 3.5s (+1.13s reload) 150: 2s (3 headshots) 175: 4s (+1.13s reload) 175: 3s (4 headshots) 200: 4.5s (+1.13s reload) 200: 3s (4 headshots) 300: 7s (+2.26s reload) 300: 5s (6 headshots) As you can see, the ambassador is, again, objectively superior in a vaccum at max fall-off (max crit distance) at this point, you're not even supposed to get kills, but if you want to play "l'espion au revolver" the amby would theoretically let you net a kill on a light class in 1.6 seconds, as opposed to 2.5 seconds from stock now, in a vaccum over the max range for crits, if we assume perfect accuracy, stock actually wins for once but, if we assume every shot needs to be accurate past that range, the ambassador wins because of it's spread recovery time the ambassador has a 1s recovery time, and stock has a 1.25s recovery time ambassador has 18 dps at sniper range if we assume the need for the recovery stock has 16.8 dps at sniper range if we assume the need for the recovery In a vaccum, the ambassador is better in almost every situation, and I currently don't have the time nor the knowledge to do the calculations about random bullet spread for mid/long range, but I would assume the ambassador gets an advantage because of the shorter recovery time and the fact it already waits for it between each headshot

[@DarkKnight179]

​@@cyre77 The big problem is that "assuming perfect aim" is already an assumption you cant make. No one has perfect aim. And thats where much of the comparison falls apart. That, and the fact that you cant quite use the numbers as written. Youre not gonna press after 1 second exactly on the amby for a second headshot, because thats frame-perfect. Press too early, and youll miss quite often. Whereas on the revolver, you can just spam click to fire it as soon as possible. Also Ambassador doesnt deal 102 on a headshot at medium ramge. Damage falloff is gradual, its doing like 70 at that range. But yeah, what youre showing is basically not "the ambassador is better at all ranges if youre a player", youre showing "the ambassador is better at all ranges if youre hacking or a bot, and worse in every situation otherwise". Which ok, sure, but were not balancing around bots, are we?

[@SJrad]

14:52 good to know i’m not the only one who dislikes the opaque flames (although it is nice as a pyro against snipers looking at a choke point)

[@wet0wl]

Yeah I’m a Pyro main but it’s absolute bullshit. Pyro shouldn’t have a freaking flashbang,

[@Veratig]

About 2 months ago I wanted to give this weapon a shot. I used this thing for 3 weeks nonstop in casual and Highlander pugs. I really wanted to get good at this thing and be “the amby guy” but it was just bad. And trust me I have the aim to back it up, I main sniper in hl. I would do the thing you mentioned where I carry it around, ready to kill anyone that just pops up or got a 2 for 1 deal. But to me the consistent damage of the stock and the enforcer are so much better. (Yes the enforcer is actually really good in Highlander). I can simply uncloak at a medium range and hold down mouse one while tracking a full health target and they die in 3-4 seconds. Compared to the ambassador doing about 70 on the first shot and people having a fucking spasm attack, messing up my aim. There’s a reason why you never see this used in competitive anymore. Trust me when I say hl spies wanted to keep using it, they wanted this thing to still be good. But they gave it a good shot and moved on. The best range for this thing was medium, at that range you could deal 102 damage with knockback while other players were still trying to get to you. Kinda just holding them in place with headshots. But anyways, respect the fact you’re still trying to use this but I would disagree that it’s even good enough to be called a side grade, even in close maps.

[@auraguard0212]

Then it was never good _except_ as a Sniper tool, and it took the nerf for people to realize that. Only the first hit getting headshots was a thing long before Jungle Inferno, possibly even from the beginning.

[@scantyer]

ur bad

[@yeahyeah4433]

@@auraguard0212 Its still good, most spy mains still use it. This guy just doesn't play spy, just cos ur a HL sniper doesn't mean ur Amby aim is good, your scoped aim is good not your running around headshotting precision. Its still really effective and if ur a good spy you shouldnt be using the gun more than 30% of the time anyway. Its very useful as an emergency weapon, if u want to be a gun spy play with default. Its very useful to save u, but you know what I found it more useful for? Forcing classes to leave me alone, less so kill potential. If you hit the headshot even at 80 dmg range, they tend to back off as their hurting. Its a great way to discourage someone chasing you down, fr thats the most effective thing for me/

[@ewanb1086]

Why are you hitting headshots that far away just fuckin walk up and shoot Him with a 102 hit

[@onionking6486]

Meanwhile the diamondback continues to exists as the closest thing to a pre nerf ambi, as well as a no fire rate penalty.

[@-.DIO.-]

"Even the best snipers have a hard time headshotting people at close range reliably." *coughs in .sizzle*

[@Aurichalcam]

Most classes are going to be at close to mid range when fighting anyway, so as long as you hit your shots an 80-102 is really powerful on Spy. Especially since enemies will either try to rush you down, or the odd one with a brain will be forced to retreat after taking critical damage

[@thefancytiefling]

I just find it funny that any weapon that requires actual skill and proper aiming to use gets nerfed but weapons that are super cheap and easy to spam are completely untouched. Now that isn't just for TF2 that's for dozens and dozens of other games.

[@piperr6539]

While I do totally get your point and appreciate the more positive perspective of the gun, the notion that the ambassador has always been good in close range combat just really isn't true. Sure, there are situations when killing an enemy in a single, more precise shot can save your life over shooting them twice, but about 90% of the time, the stock revolver far outclasses the ambe for killing somebody right in your face. 20% slower firing speed and 15% less damage is a gigantic difference, worse than the L'Etranger. The reason why those close range headshot kills are in frag movies is because they're way MORE difficult to pull off than the same kill with stock. The entire point of the weapon was to give Spy range, I mean it came out in the Spy vs. Sniper update for a reason. Maybe it shouldn't deal 102 damage from any range, but I don't think that the 1200hu limit where headshots aren't possible at all was necessary. It's still super fun to run around and headshot people, but it no longer gives Spy a truly unique tool and playstyle like it once did. Giving it the ability to deal 54 from any range would at least give it that utility that stock lacks, while not being overpowered. More than 2 unscoped headshots to kill even light classes from a decent range is definitely more effort than it's worth anyways, so I think that the ambe deserves at least that. While Spy may be a pick class, damage is damage. Basic pub spy gameplay may just be running around trying to backstab people while using your gun for emergencies, but a Spy who uses their gun proactively can easily give their team a bunch of extra damage to work off of. In that case, dps definitely does matter, and can be the difference between whether an enemy lives or dies. Consistent damage from potshots or in 1v1s is where the stock revolver thrives. While you did clarify that your point isn't to disparage stock, saying that consistent dps doesn't matter as Spy basically does exactly that. I do honestly agree with a lot of the points you brought up, but if you're actually trying to do well as Spy, the L'Etranger and stock are both way better options almost all the time (ignoring the diamondback because that's a whole other discussion...). That's just my view and opinion on the matter though, feel free to disagree obviously, just be respectful about it.

[@TF-Boom]

Yea, hitting headshots at close range is hard, but hitting headshots is overall hard. And 2 against light classes "stock outclasses amby at close range" is true. 2 shots with slightly slower firing speed (1 headshot + 1 bobyshot) from amby just have better TTK (time to kill) comper to 3 shots from stock.

[@mrmeme4203]

Spy mains are so defense about their nerfed weapons that I had someone tell me that the Ambassador is on par if not worse with the Enforcer because the Enforcer can killed Wrangled Sentries fasters.

[@TheHangarHobbit]

"Sniper is weak at close range" jarate/bushwhacka says hi 🤣

[@MillerTM]

My opinion on the amby nerf is that the 102 damage range should be increased a bit, but the minimum crit damage of 54 should always apply at all ranges. Yeah that sounds overpowered at first, but then you'd need to shoot a medic 4 times in the head to kill them, takes at least 4 seconds and obviously you'd need to be very accurate. Then probably get found out immediately and corn holed by a pyro.

[@harrogeorge7878]

@Pijazo Galáctico nah, he was saying 102 is still the max but a slightly longer range, although the current range is still very good

[@MillerTM]

@Pijazo Galáctico I just think the inconsistent damage at close to mid-range is infuriating, hence why I said a higher max damage range would make it less frustrating. A more gradual damage curve would also be less annoying.

[@pepavasata6790]

And the reason Woolen cares for DPS is because in high level comp, gun Spy is by far the most reliable role. My biggest complaint is that 1200 HU is too little. I am willing to concede that spy shouldn't be a sniper class, but IMO, the distance should be increased or the headshot limit should be removed, so after 1200 HU, headshots still do 54 damage. OR, make it do 102 until the 1200 HU drop-off, that would be even better maybe. Also, the Amby getting nerfed while the Diamondback remained the same will be the biggest injustice to ever occur. Overall, I still do like the Ambassador, as it is by far the most satisfying and fun to play with.

[@trainershade1937]

I too was someone who thought the Ambassador was too powerful, even as someone who mained Spy for a while and believes the class is currently in a very underpowered state. Hell, Valve even nerfed it the way that I wanted to see it nerfed, being the addition of damage fall-off. However I do think they went a bit overboard with the nerf, primarily when it comes to the "headshots outside of a certain distance don't crit" part. It's not even like I think the gun is bad currently, I just think players should still somewhat be rewarded for the long distance shot. It's just that the rewards pre-nerf were too much for the low risk involved in using the gun.

[@epicassassin8502]

So you still want the funni dopamine rush of a crit with the gun still being balanced, I like you, you should work at valve

[@theextremeanimator4721]

@@epicassassin8502 ..... ...is this sarcasm or not?

[@epicassassin8502]

@@theextremeanimator4721 it’s not sarcasm

[@theextremeanimator4721]

@@epicassassin8502 Oh, wait, raelly? I see...

[@celestia.27]

tbh i've always liked the idea of removing the 1200 hu crit limit, as it is a good compromise between both sides: you still get rewarded for long range headshots, but it won't be as extreme as it was pre-nerf.

[@brickwall9781]

Funny note: GIGN, France's counter-terrorist organization, is unique in the importance they place on using revolvers, specifically the MR73, as a precision weapon in their operations. Maybe not entirely as much as they used to, but there's a lot of training on revolver marksmanship. They even had a sniper revolver developed for them, with a scope & bipod.

[@henseltbrumbleburg3752]

I love videos like this. It's amazing that a game with 5 years of no balance changes, essentially neglect can still fuel discussion, opening up new playstyles. Great stuff!

[@pp10leon]

I mean, of course I prefer old amby but I would like more consistent damage like 100 max crit and min crit 50~45 no range limit and make it shoot a little slower. What do I know, right.

[@cardboard4929]

Counter point, I still can't aim.

[@TF-Boom]

Counter point 2: I suck at cloak management without letrange.

[@thebreadbringer]

I agree Spy shouldn't be able to snipe but a headshot from mid-range with the current ambassador hardly deals more damage than a stock revolver shot at the same range. I'd say; Remove the damage falloff but keep the max headshot distance and perhaps lower it.

[@jmurray1110]

Maybe instead of damage fall off after a certain distance make it minicrit still rewarding but doesn’t let you kill people too far away

[@lilskooterr]

The fall off should be less drastic in between close range and midrange, and then plummet at longer ranges the way it is now.

[@ChaoticTeen16]

Ah yes, the main factor of Spy that people forget about fairly often.... SPY HAS A GUN!

[@ebookie_meowda]

gunspy mains are forever forgotten

[@CrusaderTheFirst]

11:49 Heh, that medic. His planet needed him.

[@risingrevolt]

Honestly this video made me realize I should just use the diamondback. 10/10

[@anthonyoliver418]

FINALLY, somebody acknowledges that spy staying hidden is necessary to play the class, and if you are being a casual Kunai spy, rushing into scenarios to focus on dps and kill streak, you are essentially asking to be killed by the entire enemy team!

[@VagueCastle649]

Ah finally, the amby video I've been waiting for. One thing you forgot to mention (which is understandable because it's never listed) is that unlike all the single bullet hitscan secondaries (Pistols, Smgs, Revolvers, The Enforcer), the ambassador's spread recovery is .25 seconds faster, and it's a gradual spread recovery unlike the hard on-off nature of the others. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gZyTiKWoiLahrNk Also the butterknife-to-headshot combo is a viable strat for razorbacks.

[@red-black8138]

I have stopped doing butter knife into headshot or the other way around, I'm always using something like prinny Wich don't indicate backstabs and i always (literally always) end up having to bail or die bc the sniper somehow ran into a backstab. (I have +1k/h and not the achivement you get for killing a razorback sniper after backstabbing him)

[@somerandomyoutuber3509]

This video belongs on spy psychology. And as always, SPYHASAGUN

[@Dr_Robin_Zoro]

11:20 people want to play that way cause thats the subclass of spy that they liked.

[@Reallyimnotjoking]

A subclass only exist if there's something that support it like demo knight having shield or battle engi with the gun slinger