TF2: Scorch Shot Almighty

[@johnsharle9011]

"Scorch Shot has been rebalanced! It's now a demoman primary"

[@peet-janissen5838]

Dear god

[@frozenhawk150]

*scottish music starts*

[@ShadowGamer300]

@@draforgg5594 either lower the overall damage the Diamondback can do, or change the Crits to Mini-Crits. that way you're still rewarded for basically just playing the class, but it cant burst someone down as easily dealing up to 46-70 damage per shot till you run out, rather than the 54-102 headshot damage the Ambassador can do at a slower pace.

[@mercce6750]

Karma Charger: WRITE THAT DOWN, WRITE THAT DOWN!

[@landlockedcroat1554]

bloody hell

[@o-k9267]

Scorch shot is like a colourful bouncing castle, except all the kids die.

[@starscream8989]

don't they already? i am sorry

[@bluemaster75]

@@starscream8989 eventually

[@hugonobody3352]

@@bluemaster75 but too much "eventually" and they won't be kids anymore.

[@bluemaster75]

@@hugonobody3352 You make a good point

[@Michael-hj7vj]

Weirdly fitting for a Pyro

[@300IQPrower]

Yo you better not EVER skip the stats section that’s my absolute favorite part and puts every comparison to other weapons in perspective!

[@Sinstarclair]

I find it oddly bizzare that whenever I use the Scorch Shot, I can't aim it at all, whereas if I use the Flare Gun, I seem to look like a hacker

[@peterisawesomeplease]

I notice this too. I think my problem is the indecition of whether to go for the feet or the direct. With the flare gun its aways direct so I get into a better rythem.

[@drivanradosivic1357]

scorch shot is a incendiary grenade with a "can bounce for extra damage" which while a interesting idea for a demoman nade launcher, is not good for Pyro.

[@peterisawesomeplease]

@@drivanradosivic1357 Yea I don't think its too strong but its not very fun. The extra bounce damage just feels random. There were other things they could have done with pyro.

[@drivanradosivic1357]

@@peterisawesomeplease I would just make the scorch shot a incerniary grenade that explodes on hit

[@drivanradosivic1357]

do you think the Scroch shot should minicrit on burning players if it was a incerniary nade? Basically, if you remove the bounce(and make it a MVM upgrade) would that be alright?

[@BadBomb555]

They literally gave Sniper fire resistances with Darwin Danger Shield just to counter Scorch Shot.

[@SoldierMan755]

The knockback can still throw off shit snipers like me though

[@somerandomgamer8504]

@@SoldierMan755 That's the point..?

[@RiffSilverthe1andonly]

Angry Fish Stick on a Stick noises

[@ayakaasama]

@@kaboom8561 because a sniper that survives chargeless headshot is bullshit and I am super glad it's now a fire resistance instead

[@owenlewis9261]

@@ayakaasama yes, but with 25 extra health, they still die to one headshot, the problem was the bullet resistance

[@StickMaster500]

Pyro must be the master of social distancing if he has this weapon in hand

[@Quickstein]

ah yes hello StickMaster500

[@weevil_man]

Ha!

[@ZestyJesus]

I hate this comment

[@Quickstein]

@@ZestyJesus It's ok Zesty Me he still has airblast.

[@Vaygon]

stickcancer500

[@guscox9651]

B4nny uses the scorch shot in competitive. This means it is the best weapon in the entire game.

[@iritazemite1201]

Yes yes

[@CHEH_tf]

Lmao he can t coz it s banned So he uses the detonator instead

[@beardmanyt7164]

LOL

[@guscox9651]

@@CHEH_tf oh lol i forgot that the videos i saw were probably 2018

[@caramanvictor396]

@@CHEH_tf no its not, its allowed

[@ZestyJesus]

I said diameter instead of radius, shoot me.

[@300IQPrower]

With pistol or flare?

[@Quickstein]

@@300IQPrower Instructions unclear, charged with Eyelander.

[@slither3072]

ok.

[@dopey473]

With a weapon of your choosing or?

[@andrewsd2819]

balans

[@swisscheeese]

We need a word for when a random crit scorch flare hits a sniper and kills him in a single hit, I propose: Scope Crack

[@gregorymulia5107]

Imma actually start using this term

[@1TheVelociraptor]

That's a favor to your team, but good word, I'll use it too

[@Vaygon]

no

[@maskedrecruit4571]

I propose this term instead: Fuck you pyro

[@AC-zf3wo]

Time to counter sniper

[@darthvaderbutwayshittier7054]

"Just move out of the way bro just don't stand still" - Pyro Mains

[@Ordnance_T]

"play sniper"

[@Matt-td8xw]

Yes, if you dodge the projectile it dosen't hit you.

[@fracturedemperor]

@@Matt-td8xw area damage

[@Matt-td8xw]

@@fracturedemperor yes, and?

[@fracturedemperor]

@@Matt-td8xw it still hits you

[@the_diplomat51]

The strangely satisfying thing whenever you hold that Scorch Shot is that fragging doesn't matter anymore, only sending the flames of annoyance; frags are just cherries on top. I ditched the Flaregun after touching the Scorch Shot years ago.

[@TheAnnoyingF2P]

Yeah, forcing a light class to run for the health pack can be just as useful to your team as killing them sometimes, especially if it's a Sniper who has to abandon his post for health.

[@mikesavage8252]

parasite

[@johnnytightlips6407]

Tilting is fun too sometimes

[@benismann]

Oh yeah, this is just.... feels evil and good

[@sharcc2511]

You are a terrible person.

[@bufuhl1869]

for the longest time i thought the scorch shot was a reskin of detonator with 0 changes in stats, i played the game for 7 YEARS and i never checked the scorch shot, this is embarassing, cause i play pyro a lot

[@gr3my]

f

[@niuskay2nd590]

Lol?

[@bucketofchicken8325]

F IN THE CHAT BOIS I THOUGHT I WAS STUPID FOR PLAYING FOR 3 MONTHS AND NOT KNOW ABOUT STATS

[@gr3my]

@@bucketofchicken8325 f

[@Slenderquil]

I thought the scorch shot was just the flare gun for the longest time

[@comradetonk8280]

*Pyro mains*: arguing about flares. *Me*: haha shotgun go boom.

[@squid-boy4178]

lol agreed

[@scoutlox158]

@@squid-boy4178 me with the panic attack

[@Moss_Dude]

I would use shotgun if it weren't for the fact that flares are the only thing stopping every class in the game from range griefing me.

[@wet0wl]

@@scoutlox158 Same unless a Sniper scrub is pissing me off. Ha, piss. Like the jarate. Also btw Sniper mains, fight me. Sure it takes practice and skill to hit your shots but there’s no way it’s fair to one shot me across the map.

[@FungIsSquish]

*Pyro mains*:fucking their dog *Me*: not fucking my dog

[@FelisNoctu]

My thoughts on the scorch shot would be to focus on its utility and uniqueness. The bounce and the knockback are its title abilities. So, instead of removing the bounce like you mentioned, maybe instead remove its ability to mini/crit altogether, and also apply the -35% damage penalty to the afterburn similar to the degreaser. That would hit its damage potential by a fairly decent amount but leave its disruptive abilities intact. I'm no balancing expert of course. Just spewing random nonsense. :P

[@happypunky4129]

Nah I'd say that the dmg penalty should apply to the afterburn, but only the bounce shouldnt mini crit, that way you actually get rewarded for follow up shots.

[@OVXX666]

yeah i agree w this,, the mini crit thing is insane

[@vortex_1911]

I use it due to how it can do pretty much everything. Small jumps, opening and closing a fights, range advantage, AoE damage, knockback, minicrits, etc. It can do it all, and I use it because you can't go wrong.

[@gjmguy7994]

IIRC it used to not have the mini crit and was considered the worst flare.

[@charolettebacon6740]

Honestly 95% of the time when i use this thing the bounce flare never hits anyone. Then again i can never hit direct hits with the thing because i suck at aiming.

[@hugonobody3352]

You're playing pyro. You suck at aiming.

[@twicethegalo]

aimless gaming that's why we only play engi medic and pyro or demo if you feel like having depression

[@paraphidd]

The bounce flare is nearly guaranteed to hit the guy who got hit though, still broken af

[@Yawyna124]

I like how your actual play-time footage shows it usually not hitting people with the super-bounce combo.

[@somerandomgamer8504]

Of course, because you have to be fighting a revved Brass Beast heavy or someone who forgot what WASD is for it to actually hit the same person twice.

[@tristandpc]

@@somerandomgamer8504 Unless it's a chokepoint.

[@TrolleyMC]

Valve never nerf the scorch shot it’s the best tool against tryhard snipers lmao

[@comradetonk8280]

*Vietnam flashbacks to 2fort firing squads*

[@kimgkomg]

Actually the sniper rifle is

[@magenta5547]

That's why i like to use it. And because i can't hit shit

[@0g0mogosepikworld31]

You can see them slowly equipping the Darwin’s danger shield and then getting backstabbed

[@DeletedTroll]

@@0g0mogosepikworld31 If you are a good Sniper you won't be surprised by a spy or backstabbed. Specially if it's a Tryhard.

[@omalleycaboose5937]

I think I'm an awful person cause all this has done is convince me to use the Scorch shot

[@No-yu9jj]

One of us

[@thatoneguy3775]

O N E O F U S

[@engihere5434]

One of us

[@vivelespatat2670]

AMO- *get annihilated from existence*

[@IAdmitMyCrime]

Nice pfp man, Lego Indiana Jones made my childhood

[@appliedatoms7066]

Honestly, I don't mind the bouncing flare. I think it's a part of the weapon's identity, and has been since meet the pyro. The problem isn't that the flare bounces, it's that the flare bounces and can minicrit the target you hit. The bare minimum nerf this weapon needs is to not be able to minicrit on the same shot that ignited the player, but I honestly think the weapon would be fine if it didn't minicrit at all. I usually run scorch shot just to spread fire and be annoying (and sometimes to charge phlog) -- as someone else on here said, kills are an afterthought.

[@galacticgamer6635]

That would be interesting if the scorch shot's on fire bonus was knockback instead of minicrits, making it more of an area denial tool than a damage dealer compared to the other flareguns.

[@appliedatoms7066]

@@galacticgamer6635 so if you hit someone already on fire it pushes them further? I'm not sure how well that would work, but I'd love to try it out and see.

[@cristianardonmonge836]

@@appliedatoms7066 2:12 except it already does...

[@appliedatoms7066]

@@cristianardonmonge836 i thought that was just a side effect of the mini-crit. I may be wrong tho.

[@galacticgamer6635]

@@cristianardonmonge836 As in ONLY additional knockback, no extra damage. Maybe even reduced damage for the bouncing flare, but that might be too much.

[@squidtheinconsistent]

Honestly, as a Pyro main, I've talked with some other people who dislike me using the scorch, and the biggest balance change we could decide was significantly shortening the afterburn duration or lowering its afterburn damage, to encourage hitting the double shots consistently but discouraging spamming it at crowds

[@22burnsie]

I’m on the shitter at work, I’ll watch this later today

[@mohammadwaled409]

Nice

[@ZestyJesus]

How was the shit

[@22burnsie]

Toaster Penguins felt good honestly, sweated the whole time

[@22burnsie]

Zesty Jesus sweaty, the bathroom is tiny, , and finished the TP roll. Love the video tho and I feel like scum when I use my strange SS

[@Treblaine]

Scorch Shot detonating on a surface is only an advantage if you have the high ground, if you're on parallel ground and especially if shooting to high ground then the Detonator is obviously superior. The second bounce really doesn't matter, it really depends on dumb luck like a scout running away from a flare then reversing course right back into it.

[@maozedong69420]

You probably never play tf2 for more than 50 hours if you never feel frustrated by the bouncing flare... Joke aside, considering the fact that you will also get stunned after getting hit making it a guarantee hit which could leave you dead at any moment, factor in the fact that the bouncing flare can hit everybody after it bounced making it very frustrating because you could also be hit as well from just passing by your teammates that was hit.

[@akashsinghrajput2943]

Pyro is such a underpowered class, why can't he have any powerful weapon. Nerf this, nerf that? Any class except medic can just annihilate Pyro, he isn't even considered for highlander or competitive and whatever strengths he has, even those have to be nerfed?? Man this isn't fair. edit: I believe other flares should be buffed if they are not equally strong to scorch shot. Pyros should be given a fair chance and viability for competitive.

[@Eimlin]

The Detonator is about mobility, the Flare Gun is about damage and the Scorch Shot is about control. You can be extinguished by any kind of active healing, any liquid, be it weapon or map, and almost every ally Pyro. The projectile bounces in a random direction and often goes somewhere else or knocks you out of the hit. The projectile needs to land on aerial targets, unlike the Detonator's. It's just not reliable. What the Scorch Shot is good at is taking over an area. Block choke points, push through sticky traps, initiate DF combos, almost make the Phlog into a functional weapon, chase away Scouts and Snipers. Acting like you can 100% kill any light class just because you can theoretically do 126 damage is like assuming that explosives can one shot a Heavy just because random crits exist. No idea what kind of servers you people play on, but I barely see anyone get kills with the thing and I've never actually seen someone complain about it in game.

[@plazticbag]

Whenever Pyro has anything good the community likes to whine until it gets nerfed and becomes useless, yet they then complain about W+M1 when they make it so that it's the only viable thing for the class. Meanwhile soldier can kill a full health heavy without even having to reload once, but it's okay cause he had to rocket jump to get there.

[@W_Winters_99]

Yeah, I think Pyro gets way too much undeserved hate.

[@GullibleProKiller1]

but the thing is that heavy could have stopped the soldier by tracking better with his aim and killing the soldier before he could, getting behind cover, etc. But when you use the pyros scorch shot, what can you do, when you get hit with a rocket you can get away from it or even damage surf it. Getting hit by a scorch shot instead will pop you up into the air, reducing all horizontal movement, and will mess with your aim, making you less likely to hit the pyro, BUT THEN when they land they immediately get hit by the flare again, dealing around 90 (with some afterburn) in one single shot, where the heavy could literally do nothing but attempt to shoot you through a bobbing up and down screen due to the fire and being in the air.

[@bl1tz533]

Because fuck pyro. If he isnt laughably weak, he's bullshittingly op. He cant be balanced, so its better if hes a shitty meme class that gets to be the funny every now and then.

[@disapointmentfailure5619]

Please, stop reminding me…

[@TopSuperDude]

@@bl1tz533 Honestly....Why? If you think TF2 revolves aroung Spy, scout, soldier, and sniper, youre playing it all wrong. "He cant be balanced" Then think about combo pyros. Are they doing it wrong? "its better if hes a shitty meme class that gets to be the funny every now and then." WHY would you want that?? Then NOBODY will play pyro, NOBODY! He'll become that excluded class nobody wants to play. "he's bullshittingly op." Fine. Go back to 2007 TF2 and TFC, If you dont like it. Back THEN pyro was pure bullshit that cant do damage. But HERE he is balanced. And its not my bussiness if you dont like how he is. TF2 is about fair gameplay, not meme bad class that nobody plays simulator. I dont CARE if you died to him too much as spy, nor it is my bussiness to think about your spy feelings.

[@apock2474]

“Has a damage penalty” I didn’t even know that stat was there.

[@Fatsaver]

Probably because it has basically two flares. one that is the first hit, then the second is when the flare falls to the ground and explodes. It's actually able to 1 shot light classes if they don't get knocked back too much.

[@TopSuperDude]

@@Fatsaver You mean if 1. The character is pressing W while not being a dumb heavy 2. The character gets hit by the flare gun a second time 3.The flare explodes after contact the second time 4. The character is a -125 health class 5. That character does not find A SINGLE form of healing (NO medics, NO dispensers, NO ressuply, NO medkits, even the tiny ones,)

[@Fatsaver]

@@TopSuperDude You act like it doesn't happen most of the time which it does lmao.

[@TopSuperDude]

@@FatsaverYou act like it always happens most of the time it which it doesnt lmao.

[@Fatsaver]

@@TopSuperDude It does to me. guess im too good with it

[@KoobyKarasu]

The bouncing flare doesn't always hit the target two times. In my experience, if the flare hits twice or not seems to depend on either the angle you shot it from, or the current direction in which the flare is moving. It sometimes just bounces players in place, which is what causes the flare bounce to hit again, but on some occassions, it instead actually bounces back properly and doesn't cause a second hit to occur. This definitely looks a bit more like some sort of unintended mechanic rather than an actual thing it's supposed to do (although walls can consistently force the second hit). As for the comparison between the Scorch Shot and the Detonator, both have their time to shine for when it comes to hitting multiple targets, as Scorch Shot generally needs a surface to be able to hit multiple people without giving them a full second to react to a glowing, opposite team colored projectile hovering in place. Detonator does not require a surface, so it allows for hitting targets you cannot see and can't get an angle to shoot a Scorch Shot to. Definitely the Scorch Shot is an annoying weapon, and does require some tweaking, but I don't believe it is in any way overpowered. Personally I've switched from Scorch Shot to Detonator because I found the Scorch absolutely boring to use, and I feel like I've had actually easier times hitting fleeing targets with the Detonator by detonating the flare as they go around a corner.

[@fish4225]

You say the ss needs a surface to explode as if that's a detriment. Ever heard of the floor?

[@KoobyKarasu]

@@fish4225 Sometimes you cannot shoot the floor if you're trying to shoot someone at a higher vertical level than you. It really depends on the map, but on some maps this can be really important (IE Shooting a Sniper on the balconies on viaduct)

[@fish4225]

@@KoobyKarasu Fair enough, but your conclusion that the scorch shot isn't OP is still pretty dumb. A weapon which can kill a light class in one hit, has a ridiculously high damage potential to the point of making other similar guns worse, and has a knockback mechanic which stuns the enemy and makes it impossible to not get hit by it (which even if the bouncing flare doesn't always hit it's still complete bullshit) is most definetly quite OP.

[@lautaroruiz4143]

@@fish4225 "a weapon wich can kill a light class in one hit" are you talking about the almighty rocket launcher?

[@fish4225]

@@lautaroruiz4143 Are you drunk? Rocket launcher only does 112 damage max.

[@irregularassassin6380]

You know, testing this one on a stationary target is a little facetious. I rarely get people stepping on my flares again. Also, the clip at the very very end of the video ... a stock flaregun would have done the same thing.

[@robinrai4973]

I agree that it's annoying, but it's certainly not overpowered or problematic. You're trading the *reliable* damage of crit flares or the shotgun with *unreliable* but potentially higher initial damage. You *cannot* one shot a light class, and to do full damage you require landing a direct, having the target get hit by the second flare, AND the target taking all of the 7 second long afterburn. A single rocket, pipe, crit flare, shotgun or even just the flamethrower outdoes this *much* quicker and reliably - in your example with the scout for example. Even at long range, it's 30 + afterburn with the flare gun, to 20 + afterburn or 46 + afterburn if *everything* lands directly. Nothing crazy, especially since the flare gun can do a crit 90 with a second shot. The main upsides to this weapon (as the shotguns and flaregun are the go tos for damage) is all round utility. You get a second jump, you get a second "airblast", you get to delete stickies and you get an AoE afterburn deterrent on defense.

[@agoodname6997]

As someone whose taken to using the scorch shot a lot recently, the second flare bouncing and landing on the target a second time happens only on snipers and heavys. Unless the enemy is moving straight at you, it usually misses the second bounce.

[@taxevasion6309]

Even if it doesn't happen always, you should not be rewarded more than when using the Detonator when the Scorch Shot has a lower skill requirement.

[@andruspolanco6935]

@@taxevasion6309 no

[@mariustan9275]

@@andruspolanco6935 Yes, you should not be rewarded that much. This thing is a rocket launcher with a faster projectile speed and afterburn, and you don't even have to time a detonation.

[@danielaburger9380]

​@@mariustan9275It's not a Rocket Launcher: Damage Output: The Rocket Launcher deals far more direct and splash damage than the Scorch Shot. The Scorch Shot’s main focus is on igniting enemies and causing burn damage rather than dealing direct impact damage, which makes it less lethal than a Rocket Launcher overall. Projectile Speed and Arc: Unlike the straight, fast projectiles of the Rocket Launcher, the Scorch Shot fires slower, arcing projectiles that require more aim compensation for distance. This makes it harder to hit distant or moving targets reliably, unlike the Rocket Launcher, which has a more direct trajectory. Primary Role Difference: The Scorch Shot is a secondary weapon for the Pyro, not a primary, meaning it’s designed as a support tool to enhance Pyro’s playstyle, not to be a primary damage dealer like the Rocket Launcher is for the Soldier. The Pyro’s primary weapons, like the Flamethrower, define the class's close-range, ambush-heavy role, while the Soldier relies on the Rocket Launcher as his main offensive tool. Burn Over Time vs. Immediate Damage: The Scorch Shot’s damage comes mainly from its afterburn effect rather than immediate explosive impact. Rocket Launchers in TF2 deal damage right away and can secure kills more quickly. The Scorch Shot relies on the burn effect for sustained damage, which doesn’t deal as much burst damage as a rocket. Situational Use: The Scorch Shot is best for harassment, area denial, and lighting up hidden targets but isn’t meant to hold its own as a primary weapon in head-on combat. A Soldier with a Rocket Launcher can lead and finish fights directly, while Pyros typically use the Scorch Shot more strategically to weaken or reveal enemies rather than eliminate them outright. No Self-Damage Jumping: Rocket Launchers allow Soldiers to rocket jump, which provides major mobility advantages. The Scorch Shot lacks this function, limiting Pyros to standard movement options and making them far less mobile than Soldiers using rocket jumps.

[@beardmanyt7164]

7:13 F's in the chat for that scout. You did him dirty!

[@TheTownGuard]

Do remember, you have to hit that dropped flair. It is not easy to do that reliably. And, if the enemy has a pyro your flairs mean nothing.

[@casharbers2439]

"Can kill anyone at any range" sounds like a specific class that deserves it

[@SamueL-td7fb]

Crikey!

[@asentient8685]

everyone: wow the scorch shot is so stupid it can do like 100 damage with an aoe blast radius and doesn't take much skill why haven't it been nerfed all of demo's primary launchers: SCOOOOOTLAAAAAAAAAND FOREVARRRRR

[@niuskay2nd590]

Direct Hit: yeah

[@TheVictor126]

and the only launcher that required direct hits was nerfed

[@niuskay2nd590]

Fun fact: Loch-n-load has still Area of Damage, it does very small explosion.

[@TheVictor126]

@@niuskay2nd590 I know, but I think both me and the main comment were referring about missing and still hitting because of the explosion

[@niuskay2nd590]

@@TheVictor126 actually they deal less damage than 100 without direct but ok.

[@lisaneuman9248]

Love the Bruce almighty reference

[@EpistemologicalYT]

Thanks, KZbin Recommendations^tm, for sending me to this guy's channel. So much fun.

[@pupkins000]

Main idea of this video has one critical flaw: Scorch Shot higher damage numbers is in ideal conditions only, namely when opponent doesn't move at all, and it almost impossible to hit opponent with second explosion if opponent is in the air(airblasted or otherwise). Even in this video when opponent is hit while moving second explosion damage is not applied unless enemy is cornered( 0:45 , 1:03 , 2:10 , 2:22 , 2:33 etc). At 2:33 when he said that "flares... bounce of the target, explode and deal full damage" second blast only dealt 10 damage to medic, and same reduced splash can be seen at 2:39 . All his greater damage theory is working when he count in afterburn damage, which is very unreliable thing for getting a kill, with tons of ways for any class to remove it(Sketchek has a good video on subject, when he compares stock with Degreaser).

[@jasherthedarkened6112]

Another youtuber just recently did the math and used multiple matches for both the flare gun and the scorch shot (normal matches mind you) and STILL got higher damage with the scorch shot, even without "Perfect Conditions", I can even link the video if you decide you wanna try to argue facts

[@pupkins000]

@@jasherthedarkened6112 Write name of the video and I will check it. But I probably never will take this kind of weapon test seriously, because it very hard to do statistically and scientifically correct double blind test in TF2, since there is too much factors you need to control even if you somehow manage to remove personal bias from the test.

[@Anderson-kg5ex]

@@pupkins000 This one, I think: kzbin.info/www/bejne/noaki3SqrNZjbrM

[@genericyoutubecommenter589]

@@pupkins000 even if the scorch shit does less damage on average, it has a fuckton of splash damage and can stunlock targets on a direct hit, two things which are highkey bullshit considering how incredibly spammable the scorch shart is

[@KrabKing48]

Oh holy scorch shot,we pray to thee.

[@_Kxng_]

i do enjoy how his main example of the scorch shot being broken was a brainless scout running back into the flare

[@taku7785]

Aight, first of all, this is a very well-made video but I think the scorch shot's power is a bit overblown here. First of all, the SS is definitely in-line with the other flare guns in terms of balance. Detonator gives mobility as well as remote det flares which is incredibly useful for setting fire to enemies which would otherwise be unreachable with the SS. Half of my time on pyro has been with the detonator and a good player can keep an entire team on fire. The flare gun has the highest burst damage. The SS may deal similar damage but it requires the target to run into the bouncing flare which is frankly very easy to dodge. The SS fills the role of a mini rocket launcher except it deals nowhere near the same amount of damage nor is it equally spammable. If you want to deal sustained spam damage then play soldier or demo instead. The SS allows the pyro engage in supportive spam to soften up the enemy while supporting his own team by deflecting projectiles and keeping threats at bay.

[@xavior1352]

i would agree with you. if the scorch shot did not have splash damage that deals full afterburn

[@jimmyseit934]

“Balance change: Changed Scorch Shot to a Primary.”

[@gasmaskfacednerd5896]

Hmmmmmmm

[@JetstreamSam343]

Thats actually cool with me

[@TheOneWhoHasABadName]

scorch shot/stock flare combo is oddly terrifying did you think the knockback into double hit was bad? now, you can get knockback into stock flare crit, for a guaranteed one-shot instead of a one-shot over time you can also do it at range now. just shoot both weapons into a choke, and someone is definitely going to eat a stock flare crit why puff and sting, when you can just do the puffing and stinging at the same time, at range?

[@naii_]

0:57 that's me :O

[@huitzilo7567]

congrats

[@putridmoldyman306]

"Stock rocket/grenade launcher is not only spammy and annoying, but completely ignores the skill that the direct hit and loch n load needs to hit targets. If you look in the general direction of an enemy, they take damage." The last line is pretty accurate though. Its nothing more than a harrassment weapon. The afterburn from it hardly matters with all the ways to ignore it (DDS,mad milk, vac, medic as a whole really, dispenser, health kits, spy-cicle, another pyro, etc)

[@michaela2279]

@@putridmoldyman306 yeah but the stock rocket/pill launchers are primaries, not secondaries. pyro isnt balanced to have really strong secondaries (like demoman)

[@putridmoldyman306]

@@michaela2279 Except the Scorch shot isnt that strong

[@dantesilva6894]

@@putridmoldyman306 did you even watch the video the whole video is him explaining how the scorch shot is too strong and needs a rework

[@luxtrous]

3:55 Just putting a random time stamp here

[@БОМБАСТИЧЕН]

Guy just Team Rocketed

[@trashboat-jj9x]

Just putting a random time stamp here 1:03:56

[@gremmii3842]

4:20

[@harryvpn1462]

6:09

[@kennysalty6019]

Whenever anyone says anything about the Scorch Shot being fine, the best argument I can think of is that it has multiple mechanics removed from the game from other weapons - Can 1-Shot light classes at any range The Loch-n-Load used to be able to do this inconsistently when random damage variance was a thing and it was a 20% damage buff over-all, rather than 20% vs buildings. The Scorch Shot does exactly this. - The Stun Airblast was reworked to be changed to not be a direct stun mechanic, the scorch shot does exactly this. The Sandman was also nerfed to prevent stun mechanics, though that is a bit different. I am including it anyways, as it is worth mention that ValvE has moved against stun mechanics before So, if we're being liberal with what we consider the Scorch Shot has in comparison to the other mentioned weapons. A SECONDARY, does what TWO PRIMARIES, ONE ONCE CONSIDERED BROKEN, AND A MELEE DID, BEFORE THEY WERE NERFED. ALL IN ONE Fair and Balanced.

[@chefbraydent1791]

Scorch shot: *exists* Me a sniper main: *sweats buckets while confused screaming*

[@oatsoz]

danger shield is your friend

[@chefbraydent1791]

@@oatsoz thank you for suggestion

[@oatsoz]

@@chefbraydent1791 it is best way to fuck with pyro mains you can wm1 bash them to death with your melee and their flamethrower can't do enough damage to kill you, negates flare combos and flare spam, and axtinguisher

[@danielaburger9380]

​@@chefbraydent1791 Can you not avoid a Projectile?

[@Chiefshielda]

Hey Zesty, i would just like to take the time to say how much i appreciate your videos. There arent a whole lot of gameplay commentaries/ info videos about TF2 anymore. Youre helping to keep TF2 alive while bringing great entertainment. Thanks on the behalf of the TF2 community.

[@Creepley]

Just remove it's ability to minicrit and leave the bouncing flares

[@elgatochurro]

No

[@Meshric]

Yes

[@grievetan]

No

[@wongyikai2126]

No, then it would be the scorch shot when it was first released during Pyromania update. Worse than the manmelter.

[@jackmarshall883]

That sounds awful, like worse than the manmelter

[@dylanenriguehuntington2908]

Honestly pyro is so crap that I feel like he needs all the help he can get.

[@cryosthesia77k69]

pyro is subpar compared to most other classes but he only feels really bad since he's a jack of all trades class, good at offense, defense, and support, if you want a change of pace, try the dragon's fury

[@jjjjjjjjj99]

I for one would love to see your video on the Gas Passer. I love the work you put into the videos with all the angles you cover. Also great bg music and funny references without doing too many. Glad to find your videos.

[@roygrubboi6757]

This weapon is the saying "Fun to use, absolute hell to fight" incarnate

[@Jckfrbn]

Ya that bounce is evil, but jetpack exists and I can’t betray my love

[@ludwigiapilosa508]

The scorch shot isn't a big deal for me when I'm playing against it. Just isn't. When I think back to all the unbalanced, overpowered horrors in the history of TF2, it doesn't rank very high. And even if it is better than other secondaries, at least for utility, is there anything necessarily wrong with that? Pyro has it pretty tough in general. In any case, if there's a pyro spamming scorch shot flares on the other team to build oomph, I just pull out my manmelter to get almost constant crits, charge my own Phlogistinator and go to town on the enemy. For that reason alone, I'd be disappointed if the scorch got nerfed and use went down. Then I'd have to rely on w+m1 knuckleheads instead.

[@dmavsixndmal1289]

My thoughts exactly, I've never found movement negation mechanics as frustrating as everyone else says they are. The only one that's really annoyed me is the sandman, since you couldn't even shoot back if you got hit. The scorch shot is definitely too good compared to the other flare guns, but compared to blatantly game breaking shit like the old tide turner, danger shield, loch and load, and dead ringer its child's play.

[@bruschetta7711]

@@dmavsixndmal1289 Sandman actually needs prediction and aim to use, especially in combo with guillitone, if you use it on the face too close it sucks, the permastan is definetly annoying but the weapon now it's nearly useless, the nerf should gave been that the longer you are the slower the enemy becomes when hit, and have a short debuff in which he can't shoot weapons or at the very least shoot slower. As a thirdiary is quite useful, but just give it a slow refill time and it's ok, the health penalty is already fair

[@lum3758]

Just because other weapons were more game breaking and unbalanced doesn't justify the fact that the scorch shot is okay since it is less unbalanced. It is still unbalanced and annoying

[@ludwigiapilosa508]

LumLum Berry - I just don't think it's that annoying. I do think that a lot of the hate is a bandwagon kind of thing. We could easily find something else we could all whine about.

[@peterisawesomeplease]

Yea I feel like I very rarely get hit by the second bounce it. Even in most of the clips in this video the bounce does not hit anyone.

[@Fools3rrand]

Honestly feel bad the algorithm wants to treat you so badly, so imma interact to give you the smallest boost I can manage

[@sants2674]

Honestly agree, this man makes some quality videos only for them to reach under 100k views, absolutely unfair

[@Akunai_]

@@sants2674 that didnt age well

[@DaelLessons]

@@Akunai_ why?

[@weareinthebeam.1544]

Thanks to this video, one pyro content creator made video showing that the skill ceiling of the scorch is higher than Zesty was thinking. Other thing is that scorch shot kills slower than degreaser + panic attack comob.

[@TimesChu]

Well you've convinced me to use the scorch shot instead of my previous secondary, so mission accomplished I guess.

[@emptyvending8964]

That just makes you annoying really

[@snowman_oven]

i think scorch was not as broken as it seem on paper / video /other people think DAMAGE: 1. knock back push away people from bounce flare { unless the player don't move like in the video } + people usually move away { in long range } so bounce flare is not guaranteed (you can try on tr_walkway) 2. Because flamethrower require sustained fire to do damage(other than Dragon's Fury) , pyro use secondary to combo for burst damage . Waiting for about 2s for the bounce flare to do 20+30 or 30+30 {when combo} damage in close range is not ideal [ The flare gun {when combo} / shotguns do 90+ damage in 1 hit ] [with low burst damage in close/pyro range pyro may get kill in 2 shotgun shots (in about 1.5s) ] 2.1 what i mean is pyro using scorch shot is trading close range burst damage (which is important because pyro is a close range class) for more potential damage (potential because my 3rd point ) 3. afterburn is not very effective in close range and usually don't do full 60 afterburn damage in long range { extinguish by health pack , dispenser , medi gun , airblast , mad milk , charge , gas passer ......... } so it almost never do full 20+afterburn(4 per tick)+26+afterburn(mini-crit)=126-133 damage to kill in one shot 3.1 afterburn damage should not be consider equally to normal damage because its effective damage is lower than the maximum possible damage [ like the flare gun damage is 90(crit)+4(the tick of afterburn by other souse to make it crit) = 94 but not 90+4+75=169 ] SKILL : 4. the idea of it take no skill to use is cause by The Detonator 's need of timing to detonate but all rockets launcher also don't need detonate ( yes rocket launcher is a primary but pyro 's secondary is his only mid-long range weapon and rocket launcher have 3-5 shots [ and maybe a shotgun to backup ] compare to scorch shot's 1 shot [ with no other mid-long range damage option ] { deflecting is not consistence as it need enemy projectiles so it don't count} ) 4.1 the direct hit is a side-grade to stock rocket , so we can think it this way [ direct hit ~ flare gun ( with higher damage but require to directly hit the target ) ] and [ stock rocket ~ detonator(easier to hit but lower damage ) & scorch shot ( easier to hit but lower damage {explain in 2nd point } ) ] so detonator 's need for timing make it weaker and in comparison make the scorch shot looks like it take no skill to use 5. knock back push people away from you {flamethrower and melee range is limited and flare guns have low reload rate} so its combo is not as good as The flare gun / shotguns which after you hit the combo you can easily follow up some damage to kill someone . scorch shot have a lower burst damage { 2nd point } so it wouldn't damage the target as much and it push people away so the target may get away easier and the pyro can't follow up for damage to kill the target but long range scorch shot spam is too overused so it become annoying ( or when the bounce flare hit another player ) + the thing scorch shot always compare to ,The Detonator is kind of weak. I think when a item is not fun to fight against , it need some changes and I actually support to change the scorch shot for that reason , here is some suggestions to nerf it so people may use it less 1 : nerf it by remove function from it so effective damage (detonator < scorch < flare ) and utility ( detonator > scorch > flare ) 1.1 : remove its ability to destroy sticky and maybe put it on another weapon (I don't know why this is put on the scorch shot ) 1.2 : {remove ability to crowd control with explosion } make the bounce flare can only do damage to the player the flare bounce off from ( so pyro that directly hit the target can get reward by more damage do to the target and other player pass by will not get set on fire for no reason + can't spam effectively ) 1.3 : remove its ability to flare jump so hitting yourself will still do self damage but no knock back to jump with (so pyro want to flare jump have to use the detonator ) 2 : nerf the damage more so it become a utility tool (not too much so it can still do crowd control) [POSSIBLE DAMAGE RANGE(no afterburn & hit non-burning player ~ full afterburn & hit burning player ) : flare gun=30 or (90+4) +afterburn(4 or 5 per tick)=30~169 , detonator=23 or (30+4) +afterburn(4 or 5 per tick)=23~109 , scorch shot{now}=20 or (26+4)+(0~26+5)+afterburn(4 or 5 per tick)=20~151 ] 2.1 : remove mini-crit to burning player [ so burst=20 , direct hit damage range=20+20(if hit bounce flare)+afterburn(4 per tick)=24-112 ] 2.2 : remove explosion damage from bounce flare so only afterburn damage with bounce flare [ so direct hit non-burning player=20+afterburn(4 per tick)+(mini-crit bounce flare )afterburn{5 per tick}=24-99 , direct hit burning player=26+afterburn(5 per tick)+(mini-crit bounce flare)afterburn(5 per tick)=31-111 , not direct hit=afterburn=4-75 ] 2.3 : decrease afterburn damage on scorch shot [ full afterburn is 60 or 75(mini-crit)+20 or 26(mini-crit flare)+ 26(bounce flare) may be too much so (1 per tick=15-30 or 2 per tick=30-45 or 3 per tick=30-60) because it is easy to set people on fire] 2.4 : remove bounce flare so it explodes when hitting player or groud like a rocket [ 20 or 26+ afterburn(4 or 5 per tick)=20-101] 3 : make it can't be spam as effectively 3.1 : smaller blast radius 3.2 : decrease afterburn damage on scorch shot (from 2.3) 3.3 : make the bounce flare can only do damage to the player the flare bounce off from (from 1.2) 3.4 : longer reload time 3.5 : slower firing speed

[@boodle399]

"They can instantly kill you for anywhere on the map, at any range" So pretty much you turn into a Sniper that also can multi target and do afterburn?

[@genzo454]

And you also have +50 Max hp

[@wereowl9369]

@@genzo454 and can out dps most classes at close range

[@animq4ionboi.153]

@@genzo454 and also has flame immunity

[@wereowl9369]

@DamnMerasmus I mean over sustained fire, also a pyro can out dps a heavy if they weapon swap between the panic attack and the degreaser. Also why so aggressive?

[@SoldierMan755]

Pretty much like having having explosive headshots, but it burns targets, mini-crits, and is used against other players

[@grimempire8886]

How to fix the Scorch shot: change minicrits to regular crits

[@szpadelexe4395]

Yes

[@gaydes1012]

I feel like they added the bouncing flare just because that's how the flare worked in "Meet the Pyro"

[@dicyanoacetylene6220]

I'd rather it keep it as an annoyance tool. To pester people at range to intentionally piss them off and hunt you down. Keep the bounce and delayed ground explosion. Have it deal full crits on direct hits against burning players, mini crits against burning players on ground and bonce bursts, increased knockback against burning players, full afterburn, but a 70% damage penalty. A hit against a non burning player will only do 9 damage, the secondary burst on a burning player will do 13 (12.15) damage, and a direct hit against a burning player will do 27 damage. A two flair punch combo with this will only do 49 damage not counting afterburn, but in exchange, send them flying, like a long distance airblast if pulled off right. No flair jumps though, that's reasonable to take out.

[@Vandeer-ib5cg]

Now every pyro in existence is going to be using the scorch shot... What have you done zesty

[@bruschetta7711]

Most of them are already using it

[@TheE_G_G]

I always use it because I 1: suck at hitting flares, 2: I don't have the dentonater, 3: I love to harass snipers with it.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

Break out the Vaccinator, boys!

[@michelangelangelo7091]

I don't

[@Vaygon]

The gun is too easy to use, it's OP , it's too powerful , it's annoying , it should be removed from the game haha scorch shot goes pew and boom!

[@DaRkLoRdZoRc]

"Are we seeing the problem here?" No, because afterburn is still a joke, just like it's been for a decade now.

[@Technotoadnotafrog]

Yeah, unless you're on a map with really few health packs, it's basically just socially-distanced spychecking

[@DMDarren]

To add to this, the Scorch Shot can be used to charge the Phlog, not just the after burn, but the shot and secondary mini crit as well So not only do you get all of the benefits of the Scorch Shot as discussed here, you also get crits capable of melting a heavy-medic combo or a entire enemy push in the span of 3 seconds even easier, at the cost of airblast, honestly surprised less people use the combo for how strong it is

[@JetstreamSam343]

I refuse to use this I am annoying, but I still think a little bit about others fun

[@DMDarren]

@@JetstreamSam343 fair enough, no arguments here,

[@-RandomStranger-]

"Less people use the combo" every Pyro I see with the phlog ALWAYS has a scorch shot with them

[@mythmage8231]

I find it funny how people complain about both the "no skill involved" (dumbasses) and the bouncing flare (actually good point) at the same time, and it's kind of a lose lose for them. If we remove the blast radius and make it to where you actually have to hit the flare in the first place, we remove the "no skill" portion of it, but the weapon is still REALLY overpowered, due to the bouncing flare. If we remove the bouncing flare, then it loses all the skill required to use the damn thing, and becomes as braindead as everyone says it is. Just a thought

[@medicindisquise4271]

As a proud pyro main, my main problem with the scorch shot is: 1. The synergy with the phlog (better than the manmelter) and 2. The inherent spammability of the weapon The scorch shot has the potential to set a large number of enemies on fire, especially if they're grouped on a chokepoint, which quickly becomes annoying and outright dangerous if people keep getting hit by the scorch shot. The bouncing flare simply allows the pyro to do big damage, little risk. Normally a stock pyro would have to ambush a group of enemies to set them all aflame, or resort to timing detonator explosions. The scorch shot does it for you, ezpz. This wouldn't be much of an issue on it's own, but combine this with the phlog and you get an annoying ass pyro that stays out of range, builds MMMPH with a couple of cheeky scorch shot flares down some choke, then pops his mmph and ambushes a group of enemies. Combine this with a cooperative medic buddy and the pyro becomes a complete pain in the ass to deal with. And, in some sort of strange pattern for Valve's weapon sets (see widowmaker - shortcircuit, airstrike - basejumper, liberty - reserve shooter), the phlog and manmelter have little synergy with each other outside of the manmelter allowing the pyro to still extinguish people. Otherwise the two weapons don't really cover up each other weaknesses. But the scorch shot allows the Pyro to build mmph at minimal risk and, with the knockback, still kinda replace the airblast. Your idea of removing the bouncing flare would really curb the scorch shot, but might rob it of it's core identity. I do support removing the minicrits instead so that it still can set an entire choke on fire but won't outright burninate people on it's own.

[@applejhon8308]

The man melter really needs some love from valve imo.

[@michaelplaczek9385]

Don't take away the Scorch Shot jumps, it's kinda neat

[@bucketofchicken8325]

If u wanna jump just use the detonator

[@stef1465]

@@bucketofchicken8325 If u don't wanna jump just use the Flare Gun! What kind of argument is that? The scorch shot is "meant" to be a middle between the two other flares, removing the ability to do short jumps just makes it a lesser Flare Gun. I 100% agree with removing the flare bounce from the scorch shot but removing the ability to jump with it would make the gun useless or outshined by the other two.

[@bucketofchicken8325]

@@stef1465 ._.

[@stef1465]

@@facemcshooty6602 u're not wrong, but it still makes u able to cross some gaps and do some jumps that would otherwise be difficult or impossible

[@stef1465]

@EnglishMailbox Then you're not talking about rebalancing the weapon but completely reworking the scorch shot ito a different weapon. Because removing the jump doesn't affect the scorch shot by mutch, it just removes the extra self damage from the explosion (and the extra jump distance) meaning that it would still have on contact explosive shots. So basically the same as it is now but just a bit weaker because of the removal of the after hit bounce, which is a needed change. This is what the video discusses about, if you want to rework the weapon then please give your suggestions, I think that we'd all like some new weapon concepts.

[@VanguardBear]

Soldier: *juggles player* Pyro: "Hey I can do that too!' *Burning sounds.*

[@Kabitu1]

I like how all the analysis assumes I can hit direct flares.

[@everydaysniper9390]

This is actually why I use the flare gun, the scorch shot feels cheap, plus hitting a flare on a burning player with the flare gun and seeing the full crit is satisfying as fuck.

[@glonx639]

Any weapon that annoys a sniper is a fine weapon to me.

[@Xahnel]

You know, it's quite unfair to present the maximum optimal damage as if that's guaranteed every time. That is not what the game is balanced around, and no discussion of balance should include the absolute best case maximum of damage accounting for ramp up. As a pyro who actually plays with the Scorch Shot, not only do I find that people are annoyingly good at not eating that optimal damage output, they are also good at not dying to the afterburn. If I'm shooting people from a distance, the afterburn doesn't matter, because more than likely they are already moving when they are hit, and will continue moving, *not* being hit by the bounce, straight towards healing. If I'm shooting people up close, then the afterburn doesn't matter, *because I have a flamethrower*. In that clip with the scout, you act like the second flare mattered. It didn't. That scout was a dead man walking, and the extra 30 damage didn't matter a lick. Saved you a second of using your primary. You would have been better served by having a shotgun in that clip, frankly. In point of fact, based on my experiences, the only class you're consistently landing 126 damage on... Is tunnel vision snipers. And they have equips to counter that. I think the problem here is your mindset. You're looking at the weapon like it's a modified copy of the flare gun. It isn't. It's not a flare gun, it's a grenade launcher. Specifically, it's a worse loose cannon. An incendiary grenade launcher with some crowd control aspects. Also, you forgot another hidden downside: it doesn't just bounce of enemies. It bounces off of everyone. Meaning teammates can eat your grenade and make it useless. The flare hitting someone directly is by no means guaranteed, and like all splash damage weapons, it is best used when fired at a surface, not a person. And let's talk about ease of use and "not having to hit anyone" for a moment, because the only flare you actually have to *hit* anyone with is the original. Detonator can just be fired above a crowd and detonated. It's a sticky spamming demo's wet dream. Anyways, back to mindset: do you or do you not respect the radius on a rolling pipe that missed a direct? If no, git gud, if yes, then just apply that mindset to a scorch. That first bit of knockback is over very quickly, and you can then move away. Sure, looking at it from an individual's perspective, that bounce is annoying, but looking at it from a team perspective, getting rid of the bounce just gives the pyro free reign to spam minicrits and massive knockback at objectives, chokepoints, dispensers, large groups... The bounce serves as a leash, slowing the delivery of afterbuen to allow people to escape the explosion radius, which is the actual dangerous thing, because the explosion is where the afterburn and knockback are delivered to a group as a whole. That clip with the scout, he didn't die because the scorch shot is ridiculous. He died because he made a mistake, he moved back into space that had undetonated ordinance in it. He didn't respect that the grenade was going to explode, so he stepped right back on it and it exploded. And it wasn't even necessary to kill him, because he was already dead, his health bar just hadn't caught up with that fact. There are two things that need fixing here, and neither of them are the scorch shot. One: people don't respect afterburn. You respect a sticky trap because you can see the stored damage sitting right there. But afterburn is stored damage you can't see. So, the first thing that needs updating is making afterburn visual. The HUD needs to display how much health you are predicted to lose via afterburn. Highlight that in yellow, and add a little burning number so you can see at a glance your effective health. Secondly, knockback. Knockback is just jank and broken and needs fixing. Scorch shot current knockback is as bad as old airblast was, but that's because literally only the airblast got its knockback redone, everything else just works like it always did. Of course, the real biggest problem is that pyro spent so long being a joke that no one wants to take him seriously and they get irrationally angry when the "weakest no skill class" kills them and do shit like blame the weapons and claim they are unfair and overpowered, instead of giving any credit to the person playing him or considering for even a moment that they were just the worse player in that moment...

[@winterflan]

Pyro is already weak enough. The Scorch Shot is strong, but only in comparison to the other flare guns. I think it'd be a better idea to buff up the detonator, the mannmelter, and the flare gun to be more on the SS's level, as the last thing Pyro needs is one of their few "actually really effective" tools getting pummeled.

[@fracturedemperor]

pyro is far from weak

[@PyranoTheDev]

I disagree as a fellow pyro main. I use the Scorch Shot a lot, but I get that it isn't fun to play against so I wouldn't mind if it got nerfed if it meant both me and my opponent are having fun fighting each other.

[@FireSw0rd1374]

_watches video_ _listens to outro music_ _raze 2 flashbacks_

[@KLIXORthe]

I kinda like the unforseen double donk type mechanic, I think I'd prefer it get a firing speed + switch speed penalty, to make it less spammable and make the knockback less abusable, while still retaining as much of the uniqueness of the weapon as possible.

[@TheSeabornGaming]

I originally subbed cuz I saw you got a gold pan when I was in game, but stayed cuz you make great analysis videos like this one or the buff banner. You also got funny gameplay vids.

[@buttersddragon]

it feels like the issue with a lot of these weapons is just that they sound fine on paper

[@diegodankquixote-wry3242]

The scorch shot is the apex, the requiem, of the pyros arsonal(sic). It is the perfect long distance weapon to make up for his primaries lack of range. It can crowd control, Deny area, make it easier for Nearby players to kill the scorched player and scorch jump. It is basically just a mini rocket launcher for pyro. It should be the default secondary for pyro. This video like these reminds me that we should appreciate the weapons we have because they could be nerfed by valve in the next update with little or no explanation and it will never be useable again because there will never be another balance update. I didn't appreciate my panic attack and now he's gone, I'll never have him back. I was originally going to main engie until they nerfed the painic attack. Now I main pyro and demoman equally.

[@cristiandalpino3833]

So you basically think a class should be made viable via his unlocks and not the core of the class? What?

[@diegodankquixote-wry3242]

@@cristiandalpino3833 the shotgun sucks pp on pyrp. Its Redundant, any time you could be using the shotgun you could be usingthe flame thrower unless vac medic or a sniper with the Darwin's dager crucher who wants all pyros to rage quit the server. I don't know why a weapon like the scorch shot wasn't the default secondary when the game first launched either then laziness. All the flare weapons complete pyro because they compensate for the range of range the flamethrower offers him.

[@cristiandalpino3833]

@@diegodankquixote-wry3242 The shotgun still has a way higher burst damage than flamethrower, and pairs excelent with the degreaser

[@diegodankquixote-wry3242]

@@cristiandalpino3833 1. missed the entire point of what I said. The shotgun is redundant when you all ready had a close range primary. The long distance of the flares makes pyro more well rounded, and it should have always been this way. 2. Just no. Flare does more damage than shotgun 3. Puff and sting has been nerfed for a while. 4. The thermal thruster is the chadest secondary

[@yellow6677]

@@diegodankquixote-wry3242 ive never seen someone so biased until now. You sir should get an award for being super biased.

[@whensomethingcriesagain]

The knockback and bouncing flare remind me a lot of the Loose Cannon, so reworking it to require a similar level of skill to consistently landing Double Donks might be a really good fix that doesn't nerf the upside for people who can use it effectively

[@angeloblue6838]

Spaming flare = bad Spaming stickies = good

[@chrisvisser-fee2631]

While I agree that the thing shouldn't be able to one-shot ANY class, that scout clip... like the dude backed up to the exact point where it was going to do max damage, in that one I think it was kinda on him.

[@cavie034]

the example with the scout was bad if u would have lit him on fire first and then hit him with the normal flare gun he would have died just as fast also the scorch shot is a weaker combo weapon compared to the flare gun because it only does 30 damage when hitting the burning target and because the enemy is gonna be backing up from you to get out of your flamethrowers reach or/and because the scorch-shot deals higher knockback to burning players, the enemy will most likely be out of the range of the falling flare once it hits the ground and even if it does, it only deals 50 damage compared to the flare guns 90 damage, in addition the scorch shot kills a 125 class in one shot, provided that the afterburn does its course, it is generally a bad idea to go for a scorch-shot-direct-hit in close or mid range and then use your flame thrower because if u would have used the flare gun after setting him on fire with your flame thrower it is easier to hit a direct-hit because you can stunlook the enemy with airblast and shot them afterwards, also because the on-hit-damage of the scorch shot is lower then the flare guns the probability is higher that the enemy you fight finishes you off before he dies himself. On long range the scorch-shot is surpirior against snipers, but if the sniper is fast enough he can get to a health-pack should one be in range, and hitting a long range second shot with the scorch-shot is harder then with the flare gun, because the knockback pushes the enemy of your next shot, so you have to adjust your aim not only for the enemys movement and travel-arc and time of the flare-gun, but the knockback of the scorch-shot as well. And the killing 125hp-classes in one hit is also not that strong,because spys can cloak to reduce damage and afterburn, scouts can avoid the falling flare with their speed and double jump and engineers can have a dispenser nearby, use the gunslinger or be in a place the pyro can't get to without confronting their sentry gun. Snipers are the only real target when using the scorch shot on long range. And should you be playing sniper and get killed by the scorch shot, just equip the darwins danger shield or jarate, even the backpack reduces afterburn slightly, because your base healing-rate with it is 1. The other 125-classes also have tools to counter pyro like the spysikle, the mad milk,the candy cane and dead ringer. So I would say that the scorch shot isn't that strong compared to the other flare-guns.It's three best use-cases are destroying stickys, ligthing a group of enemys on fire and doing some small flare-jumps the trade-off being: it is weaker as a combo-tool.If u use the backburner or phlog as a wm1-ing noob u can use the scorch shot as a stun tool ,but that case just uninstall tf2 or use the thermal thruster, which is more effective for the backburner.Also a small sidenode: when u hit a demoman with the normal flaregun or the manmelter and switch to the axtinguisher right after and hit the demo, he will die instantly, as long as he isn't using a shield and has 175 hp.I also think,although im not quite sure but, the damage of the axtinquisher stays the same when he's using a shield,because it is based on afterburn duration and does meele not fire damage,butthe demoman will only have taken 15 damage from the flare gun an therefore wont die instantly and also he might be wearing the boots.

[@Lithex343]

You shouldn't have to equip a single weapon to counter a single weapon. Why play sniper if I ALWAYS have to use jarate or darwins and why play scout if I ALWAYS have to use mad milk because a weapon one shots me. That's stupid.

[@bruschetta7711]

This would sounds fair if it wasn't for the fact that said pyro is far, probably out of range, spamming down a choke point and charging is mmmmmmph meter waiting for the medic to uber him, while the enemy team is mostly on fire and half of it has to go search for medikits unless there's that one pyro who constantly has to extuinguish people

[@HulksterHogan]

I wouldn't mind just taking away the bouncing feature although the knockback and flare jumping I feel needs to stay it provides way too much utility to just take it away. Just removing the second explosion and the bouncing so that the weapon is a flare the rewards accuracy with some really usefull knockback much like the flare gun rewards accuracy with full crits.

[@athath2010]

What if the scorch shot bounced the first time it hit ANYTHING, not just players? You could do cool trickshots with it to hit people around corners, but it'd be harder to just spam it into groups of enemies, since if it didn't hit someone in that group, it'd just bounce off of the groud and fly off somewhere else.

[@theblackoutexplorer2658]

@@athath2010 I feel like people would just complain that’s an upgrade and really tho the freaking bounce barley every hits

[@TheAnnoyingF2P]

I'm an avid fan of the Scorch Shot and I've been running it on Pyro almost exclusively for years now. Its overall design philosophy as a harassment weapon is really good for countering Pyro's lack of range against classes like Snipers and Scouts who in theory should always be able to out-damage a Pyro by staying at a distance. The double flare hit can easily cause enough damage to a scoped Sniper to force him out of the battle, giving your team precious seconds to advance through his sightline. Personally, I'd be fine if they never nerfed it, but I understand why it can be OP in some situations. When many people say it needs a rebalance they just immediately say to remove the splash damage, because that is what makes it so easy to use. This would make it far more skill-based, but it would become inferior to the Detonator if this were the case. The most useful thing about the current Scorch Shot in my opinion is that you can just lay down an explosion at an enemy's feet and ignite faster classes like Scouts who would be much harder to hit with the normal Flaregun. In this way, it's not much different from the Rocket Launcher - a weapon that can do the same exact thing for more damage (assuming the Scouts run for a health kit to put out the fire like they should) and the same amount of skill. For light classes, the afterburn gives them the choice to either pursue the Pyro at an HP disadvantage, or disengage and increase their chances of survival. On a direct hit, the target should be able to dodge the bouncing flare explosion if they are fast enough, but sometimes the problem is that their momentum is entirely canceled by the knockback from the first hit. This effect can create a sort of soft stunlock by slowing them to the point where the explosion is unavoidable. Removing the second hit would make the weapon significantly weaker, but I suppose it's a viable way to make it less effective in DM - because believe me, it can be extremely effective in DM if used properly. While it would be less effective against Snipers, it would still have a cemented role as an anti-Sniper weapon, since the blast radius allows the user to spend less time lining up the shot and the fire will cause scoped players to flinch. Alternatively, I wonder if removing the knockback would help a bit. Like, for example, if the first hit had a minimal effect on a Scout's movement, he could continue on his path and outrun the second explosion, cutting most of the damage he would have otherwise received. The second hit would then have its effectiveness limited to unaware or slow classes or large groups. I think everyone is familiar with the frustration of being juggled against a wall by a Demo's grenade, and the current bouncing flare creates a similar effect if the target is in a corner.

[@frowite324]

I agree completely with you, the knock back on the 1st shot in my opinion is what needs to be changed. Pyro already has a super powerful knock back tool, the air-blast he doesn't need a secondary that does it for him

[@frowite324]

@@VulcanicCloud Then whats the point of it then? if it cant second bounce and punish standing still players and not have any long to mid range use all you did was nerf the crap out of it making in a less powerful detonator

[@owenblount7334]

or just remove the direct hit bounce and make it explode on hit like it does on walls

[@owenblount7334]

@@frowite324 the knockback is useful as hell as a harassing tool and stopping pushes, the main problem is the second bounce making it do too much damage removing that by just making it explode like it does on walls would make it so you have to fire another shot to do as much damage which also risks your head if your using it to harass a sniper

[@arbitrary_thoughts]

I use it avidly and to me the destruction of stickies and knockback are the biggest draws to the weapon. If everything else got nerfed id be disappointed but I could live with those changes and still use the weapon just for its utilities.

[@cooperjx2847]

I always have two feelings to this kind of videos : "wow yes they are totally right" and "imagine talking to a wall but it actually listens to you"

[@chara8383]

The scorch shot is if the grenade launcher could double donk but all you needed to do is get a direct hit for a donk

[@sutoriimmortal2177]

Honestly you probably could split away the major problems with the scorch shot into a whole new weapon of its own instead of being attached to the scorch shot. Kinda like the equalizer and the escape plan.

[@JetstreamSam343]

Yeah that would have been cool One gun does splash damage with low after burn per shot The other when hit bounces and deals mini crits dealing about 90 damage per shot with low after burn maxing to 100 damage and no splash That would be a good solution

[@narcalis3602]

The scorch shot is meant to deal with snipers, it’s damage is god awful when in close range compared to every other flare gun or shotgun.

[@tehzhixiang9452]

I think every flare gun is god awful at close range

[@theblackoutexplorer2658]

@DamnMerasmus huh weird that’s exactly what I use it for annoys the shit outa of em

[@chromosomedcollector]

I love how many people this weapon makes mad

[@waywardmoose2020]

The payload clip where you shot a flare and re-peeked the corner made me laugh my ass off. EVERYBODY was ON FIRE

[@zedbags]

The Scorch Shot is perfectly fine and needs no balancing. Sincerely, the pyro mains

[@emptyvending8964]

Correction: The Pyros who use to use the broken Reserve Shooter combo

[@zedbags]

@@emptyvending8964 that doesn't exist anymore

[@emptyvending8964]

@@zedbags Almost like I said who use to use

[@MiaoNya]

I know you're trying to be "objective" and all but you put the Scorch Shot in a vacuum where it outperforms all of the flare guns. Sometimes the general applicability of the regular Flare gun's burst damage is more desired than the theoretical, higher, slower damage of The Scorch Shot. Don't try with The Detonator, it's an awful weapon and it needs to be buffed. I hate it when people say that they're "BeInG OnE-hUnDrEd PeRcEnT oBjEcTiVe" and they go on to show that they're clearly biased. We're all biased in one way or another, that's what makes our opinions unique. Whether or not you're being objective doesn't make you more or less valid than other people.

[@somo4227]

you are biased on the detonator

[@MiaoNya]

@@somo4227 Yes I am. My opinion is that The Detonator is a trash weapon and usage statistics can reinforce my opinion.

[@MiaoNya]

@@TheDaibu Yeah, I feel you. I do like discussions about weapon balance and everything but the only thing that irks me is whenever those internet people are disingenuous and use misleading information and trying to convince people of an "Objective Fact" because they're all in their feels because a weapon they don't like killed them one too many times. I feel like the closer this game comes to being perfectly balanced, the more things people will complain about.

[@owenblount7334]

@Elioxis the second bounce is kinda stupid but the knockback is great for harassment and gives another option for area denial on pyro beside w+m1 or w+m2

[@frostbite5081]

@@owenblount7334 In any case the bouncing flare is kind of the only gripe I have with the scorch shot.

[@coyoteunappreciative5184]

Cant wait to have this video linked in chat at me 24/7 as i use the scorch shot avidly. Fun times.

[@lewis5618]

That's what ya get for using scorch shot

[@purplehaze2358]

I’m not kidding when I say, in certain situations, you can do more damage with a lazy scorch shot flare than you can with a shotgun meatshot.

[@whirl3690]

Ah, so your fix is to make the Scorch Shot a shittier Detonator.

[@fattylugia]

this

[@becnok127]

I use it in combination with the dragons fury as you can output a horrific amount of damage if you shoot a light class with the scorch shot once, switch to the dragons fury and then start blasting with the bonus damage, and then when the scorch shot flare explodes you do even more damage.

[@MrRailden]

Also you should mention the afterburn: Since the Jungle Inferno update, afterburn is calculated depending on how long you were in contact with a flame. With the flare guns, this instead sets the afterburn up to full cooldown again. The Scorch, and I guess the detonator too, should not be able to do this. They should apply only part of the afterburn duration and then stack up on consecutive hits.

[@KRIMZONMEKANISM]

The Scorch shot's whole premise and appeal is about spam potential and hitting multiple people, I say remove the initial explosive damage, but keep the sticky removal ability. Make it so that the only thing it does is reapply the afterburn. And then have it so that only targets that are hit directly can suffer mini-crits, but ONLY from the secondary explosion. No more "spamming the objective for easy mini-crit damage" bullshit. I don't really mind the knockback tbh, I think it should be extra encouragement for being able to aim..

[@azurecynex4796]

Wait.. the scorch was op? I swear in my 2k hours playing tf2 back in 2016 I didn't use it because I thought it was shit. I just opted for the flare gun. Huh well too late I guess?

[@tehzhixiang9452]

Another hidden stat: 100% chance of losing all respect from others and 20% chance of getting called a racial slur

[@pupkins000]

After airblast changes, it became much harder to follow up with Flaregun crit. So Scorch Shot, with new player friendly, easily spammable AoE, became much more appealing. But unless the opponent is not a revved Heavy or is afk it is impossible to do as high damage numbers, as in the video.

[@somehowviable7696]

I just use it to hit enemies outside my reach or to combo

[@somerandomgamer8504]

Still sucks if you can aim.

[@walnut6684]

Snipers thinking they are safe Me with my scorch shot direct hit:bonjour

[@ED-gw9rg]

I'd like to see this thing as a Primary Weapon tbh - it's basically as powerful as one.

[@somerandomgamer8504]

So you want pyro to go from the worst class in the game to... Well, even more so the worst class in the game?

[@ED-gw9rg]

@@somerandomgamer8504 Well, if Scorch Shot were a Primary... - You could play as a Long-Range Pyro Subclass - You'd have to decide between having the Scorch Shot or Airblasts of any kind (no more easily harrassing soldiers from afar and then not letting them play the game via Rocket Airblasting. Pretty sure Pyro haters complain about that, anyways, and every Soldier and Demoman main could agree that it sucks that Pyros can do that right now.) - Long range Flare Gun combos could be possible (which I know matters to some people) - It forces new players to use the Detonator if they want to keep their Flamethrower handy - It's high strength would be more understandable (no options to use a Flamethrower in tandem with the Scorch Shot would be balanced enough for the anti-Pyro riots to calm down) - The Dragon's Fury would require more skill to use (I use the Scorch Shot to Dragon's Fury combo sometimes, and it's kinda disgusting when you land it. Having to use other Flare Guns to secure the combo, though? I could live with that.) - If you main Long-Range Pyro, you're little more than a Sniper with 50 more Health to most other Pyros. That, and Spies can backstab Pyros easier and disguise themselves better. (IE: "Hey, that Pyro's a Spy!" "Naw, pardner - the boy's just using a Loadout with more gun. Let 'em by." "Okay, then!" *Sapper* "You fools!" *Backstabs intensify*) This is why I want Scorch Shot to be a Primary - more skill, more variety in how you can play Pyro, and finally not being lumped into the 'annoying Scorch Shot' to 'mindless WM1' the haters oh-so-love to hate.

[@somerandomgamer8504]

@@ED-gw9rg You literally everyone would just complain about it, then? Soldier and Sniper mains already whine unbelievably loud when anything so much as slows or can poke them at all while they play the strongest shit in the game. Pyro would have literally no defence at close range, lose a good harass option because quite literally noone in their right mind would ever equip the Scorch Shot over a flamethrower because it fucking sucks comparatively, and now can't even use it as a secondary. So the weakest class gets even weaker, and now everyone's unhappy.

[@ED-gw9rg]

@@somerandomgamer8504 Well... - No defence at close range? That could be passed off as intentional, and solvable with an Axtinguisher combo, if you feel the need for it (Like how Snipers combo Jarate and Bushwacka as a last resort) - Harrassing at long range or close up - it'd be your pick, but you couldn't really do both - Some people still use the Gas Passer outside of MvM. Scorch Shot wouldn't be the worst thing to happen to Pyro in comparison, thankfully. - The Scorch Shot would have to be turned into a Flamethrower which has either Airblast (I'm realizing how awful that sounds as I type this), or the Airblast could be traded for the Scorch Shot, probably at the cost of decreased Flamethrower damage/Afterburn (which is the main reason people harrass with it). - I'm starting to realize everyone will never stop complaining over Pyro (after all, what do you do to make a class designed to counter lag more skill based beyond stuff like Airblast?) Hoo, boy...

[@kared791]

@@somerandomgamer8504 Pyro is the weakness class? Spy, gets that title.