[TF2] The Fundamental Problem With Weapon Skins

Weapon Skins have been in the game for quite some time now. But are they really a good addition to the game? I'd argue not.
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[@chair_in_pool]

You healing the other med’s heal target is giving me anxiety.

[@remito7839]

And that Heavy must have a great game having 2 Medics glued to his back for most of the game and being the sole Uber target

[@blitzn00dle50]

Push the damn cart you big dumb

[@brogan7659]

@@remito7839 he was the only power class around him

[@guscox9651]

I know, also I wish he ubered someone who isn't a heavy

[@mikaele]

@@guscox9651 THEY BOTH UBERED THE SAME HEAVY AT THE SAME TIME LIKE WTFFFFF

[@artificialgravitas8954]

17:52 The Economy may be important, but calling it the main point of the game would be gross exaggeration, I'd probably oppose sacrificing customization for Economics if wears weren't so bloody awful and so many civilian grade skins weren't garbage

[@chewtag]

facts, cosmetics exist so that people can customise their stuff, not so some asshole can make a bunch of money off of it

[@someoneelse4811]

@@chewtag Trading is fun if you get good at it, but yeah, leave it at that.

[@sankdom4598]

Not all skins suck nut cracker is amazing

[@cfdeers]

@@sankdom4598 in terms of liquidity, they suck unless you're selling it for pennies on the Steam Community Market.

[@tylerlackey1175]

@@chewtag that "some asshole" is called valve

[@GermanPeter]

This is actually the first time someone has responded to my videos or quoted them, amazing! Solid video btw, though things like the economy don't interest me one bit :D

[@sonza___]

GermanPeter chiao

[@dilapidatedcows4826]

Economy is this guy’s middle name

[@rammo8804]

GermanPeter I like German Peter's vid better

[@SandmanURL]

Dilapidated Cows last name actually

[@jared6256]

We don't speak this bastards name

[@ThePandaFuzz]

Woah thevirtualeconomist is creating content again?? Throwback to like 2 years ago

[@drgore1797]

"a game all about trading" -The Virtual Economist, 2018

[@keatonrenick1848]

Aussie weapons are just glorified skins right?

[@2-Way_Intersection]

not really. aussies are a lot harder to obtain than skins due to the way you obtain them.

[@knightofy333schua8]

you play.... MVM.... or you buy them....@@2-Way_Intersection

[@Lugermorph1497]

@@knightofy333schua8 they like....cost a lot...... and like..... have a very low.....drop rate....

[@An_Ian]

@@knightofy333schua8 Yes but no the odds of them droping are almost that of an unusual

[@2startbuttons820]

I"ll give you every cardboard boxed item in my inventory for ya aussie skin

[@Sasuri]

Breaking News: Steam Community Market Skin Sellers go on manhunt to find and kill TheVirtualEconomist.

[@davoodoh3137]

Is that megumin

[@gitchincanama580]

@@davoodoh3137 no

[@margggg4951]

this comment hits hard today after dream

[@awyeagames]

Skins are fine. People look for what they prefer and can afford to buy from the community market. I think the problem is that regular traders find skins hard to sell. Well, don't. Leave skins to the community market and let buyers figure it out. Being hard to sell doesn't make skins bad to the game. They are cool for most players.

[@diamond_rkr1762]

Aww Yeaa ikr? Tf2 isnt a time square, its a game(cade o concurso de quadrinha)

[@commietearsdrinker]

Professor!

[@awyeagames]

Diamond_RKR prometo que sai ainda este ano xD

[@awyeagames]

awake Brezinski I understand that. My problem is that he said skins are bad for the game. They are not. They might be bad for traders, but that doesn't necessarily make them bad for the game.

[@TheVirtualEconomist]

My problem is more that Valve could have made skins good for traders AND good for casual players if they had just made a few slight changes when they first implemented them. But they didn't.

[@FawfulsMinionCountdowns]

Couldn't disagree more. Skins are harmless. More user customization will never be a bad thing. Sure, they suck for trading--in that they're ridiculously hard to sell--but I fail to see any actual harm in having them around. "Oh noes, I can't make money off it! Call the authorities." I understand why you, an obvious trader, would not like them. But consider that you may be the minority. I know plenty of people that just like having skins. Also, concerning the "ugly" and "hurts artstyle" arguments. The former's completely subjective. Who's to say everyone hates having a bloody tiger-skin sniper rifle? Why be angry at more options? The latter is just bullshit. Goofy, colorful, and totally out-there? That's not anti-TF2 in the slightest, it's honestly exactly what I expect. Although, it would be nice if the TF team gave us the option to filter skins and cosmetic off. Why not account for players that don't wanna see that shit? They deserve to be catered to as well. Also, wears have their place. Some skins do look better in lower grades. Battle Scarred Kill Covered is about as edgy as you can get. I know plenty of people like that kinda shit.

[@sugarhoney01]

What he (and GermanPeter) mean is that TF2 is set in a time period, so why are there items that exist from after then? Thats like having smartphones in a 1890's setting...

[@dapperglm2620]

SugarHoneyIcedTea Well, Australia in the TF2 universe is decades upon decades more advanced than any other city in the planet. I.e. Flying cars

[@fishstyx5028]

SugarHoneyIcedTea 1:23 he says that his biggest issue relates to the economy and not conflicting art styles

[@TheVirtualEconomist]

Skins are still problematic even for people who couldn't care less about trading. One of the best parts about TF2 is that you can invest money into the game, buy awesome cosmetics, and then sell your stuff when your interest wanes and buy steam games or other items with the money. But with skins, you basically pay for them in the first place and cannot get rid of them, meaning they are basically a wasted investment, and you are just throwing money down the drain. Maybe some people are fine with that, but I know I sure as hell wouldn't put this much time, effort, and money into a game I knew I wouldn't be able to cash out of. As for the part about the artstyle, I didn't argue that, so take it up with GermanPeter.

[@Nul1fy]

"Throwing money down the drain" I'm sure if someone is investing money into skins that they made that choice todo so, so they aren't wasting anything. That's basically saying in general throwing money into tf2 is throwing it down the drain. The game doesn't force you too buy the skins, so they don't impact much of anything. They are just that: Skins, used for optional customization and that's all. Sure you get unusual skins here and there but if anything impacts any part of the economy the unusuals do. And yes to your statement on they are hard to sell, that is true but more than half of the tf2 community buys those skins from the market or unbox them to actually keep (but ill bring up the unusuals again, only really ever see people trying to trade unusual skin, not base skins) but saying that they are hard to sell isn't an argument. Because unusual hats themselves are hard to sell. Basically my TLDR: Skins aren't bad and they don't really effect much of anything.

[@michaelandrejco3612]

I have to agree with many points in this video, but dude... You do not deserve those aussie weapons with that Medic gameplay.

[@garrettoliva5154]

I think adding A slider to a war paint or a war painted weapon to make it battle scarred or factory new would greatly improve some of this problem. But this is valve, *We got to have* *m o n e y*

[@DiddyBom]

This is super late, but I think tf2 needs to make money somehow. Tf.2nd is literally free.

[@yoursonhaspassedaway3330]

Im super late but you got your wish dude

[@Atari8888]

@@yoursonhaspassedaway3330 what how lol all war paints still have wear values

[@ElywinCarrinithshinyhunting]

Maybe looking at something from "The trader's perspective" isn't exactly the best way to look at a supposed problem?

[@chalice8989]

Yea

[@Archimo]

he looked at it from hat traders point of view he never actually asked me aka the expert on the subject.

[@chalice8989]

Archimo YO it’s ya boi

[@grester5929]

IKR I was saying to myself “is this really a problem?” The whole time through the video

[@mikalicious.]

Yeah almost it's like he's a tf2 trader. Who btw almost always talks about the tf2 economy in videos like this.

[@julienleek5696]

I had the exact thoughts as you did like a year ago and still now, there are just too many combinations of weapons that make pricing them really hard. Btw I would love to see a video from yours about the fall in prices of the unusual taunts

[@TheVirtualEconomist]

Taunt video coming at some point for sure

[@woshee_real]

As I said in a previous comment, Pricing skins is pretty easy, just look at how much the avarage price of the skin sold for over the last week on SCM, take away 15%, and convert the final price into keys and ref and boom, fair skin price.

[@tobbanimations4599]

Simple fix: Just stay away from the skin system.

[@GrungeMan8]

Simple fix: just have fun with your items and stay away from trading. (Its an endless cycle of pain)

[@Twisted_Logic]

> game about trading > trading added four years after release

[@2-Way_Intersection]

well, before that there wasnt anything *to* trade, so...

[@darry2885]

Cosmetics were introduced before trading was, so...

[@muhammedtugra5943]

Team fortress 2 is not about Trading you know.

[@apollyon1987]

R/whoooooooosh

[@supersanscraftcommentediti5337]

*That’s how the Gravel War works!*

[@AviatorsCentral]

So? Just don’t trade skins? Leave the joy of skins for players that play the game for fun rather than making profit.

[@feedtheorist9944]

skins fuck up weapon recognition. In particular, one of the war paints makes stock rocket launchers look like the air strike, and distinguishing the panic attack from the shotgun is a nightmare now. --JWB

[@5JSX5]

I think it's hard to argue that you just shouldn't trade skins. The trading game is about making profit, and traders will search to find any way they can do that. This means that it is inevitable that skins will show up in trading.

[@feedtheorist9944]

5JSX5 makes a good point ^

[@feedtheorist9944]

Fake Name no shit, did you read my first comment?

[@Nul1fy]

Joe, Not really. Any player who has at least 10 hours in tf2 can tell what silhouettes are for what weapon. If a rocket launcher has a orange tinted skin and look like the rocket jumper you wouldn't think rocket jumper because it wouldn't have that plunger or sign on the side of the gun. Skins if anything make you stand out more just as much as unusual's make you stand out. Its just as simple as seeing a silhouette and knowing the weapon.

[@mortykai.]

*Zesty Jesus would like to: Know your location*

[@GrungeMan8]

Yeah but he was right on his video

[@HK-pq7pe]

@@GrungeMan8 nah

[@GrungeMan8]

@@HK-pq7pe he was ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ the only arguments to skins is that they ruin the artstyle and it damages the Economy. Those points are almost not even useful. Besides Economy. But artstyle? I don't think so. It has no negative impact on that whatsoever

[@violetrais9600]

I'm actually upset about this video. It seemed like you said to limit our freedom of choice and customisation for the sake of easier pricing. Skins and now warpaints are not meant to trade consistently - they are meant to be used. If someone has unboxed an unusual or strange weapon skin he is expected to use it. Traders, especially bigger ones, often forget that people buy and sell stuff to keep them, not just profit. This game is not about trading, remember to remember this. Of course no one is forbidden from selling the thing they don't want to get some other thing they do, but stable and exact prices are not needed for that - just look at the early days of TF2 economy or even the first day of major updates, with massive ammounts of new items - people just made stuff up and it stayed or changed depending on the will of others to pay or not to pay this much for a certain thing (for example the new Starboard Cruisader, it sells for a fuck ton of money now, because it's very desirable, when the Sky High Fly Guy is pretty much worthless - all made up by the community). Cheers!

[@fallenmango8420]

Just a man and his trumpet I agree but with one caveat. They should add a 2-3 dollar “paint kit” that lets you change it to whatever you want. Bad skins mean valve makes more money for the sale of better skins on the market. This way valve has an incentive to add the change, so they can make all the money they want.

[@korayc5021]

Well unless it’s like a pizza unusual war paint with the hot effect. 👌 it looks awesome

[@violetrais9600]

Desired You could say it looks LIT. L I T B O I

[@LS-oh8kv]

I wish you could get an unusual holy mackerel with the pizza paint with the unusual isotope effect, the massive amounts of “what? Why?” Is exactly why I would want such a weapon

[@pp-ee3ui]

L S You ever watched Archimo’s video of him using a perfect, strange, FN, war paint on the holy mackerel?

[@Archimo]

+X to the D don't forget to mention it were also commando grade ;)

[@pp-ee3ui]

Archimo ;)

[@tefnutstemple7433]

Personally, I like worn skins, because it adds personality. I wish I could have them with JUST scratches, blood splatter, or fade, without having all 3 at once. It should be an optional thing, like the options for items like the Splendid Screen.

[@alexyu1287]

Hey! I totally agree with your points from a trader's perspective, but if I just want a skin for keepsies, most of the problems you listed won't affect me because I won't end up selling the skin. Also I don't really have any skins because I have texture quality on low so I can run tf2 :P

[@zeeby1]

FYI: Setting the texture quality higher doesn't affect the performance much. You'll lose 1-2 frames max

[@alexyu1287]

zeeby2 I couldn't play a game without it crashing with them on high, idk why

[@pp-ee3ui]

YuKnowIt do you play on a Mac? Because it’s a problem I think most Mac users have.

[@alexyu1287]

X to the D yeah

[@Archimo]

the point of view is mostly biased of a unusual hat trader with no experience in unusual weapon trading.

[@Balblair]

"Cosmetic items you get should always look better than stock" That has never been the case, and never will be the case. Taste is subjective, and some people will simply prefer simplicity or something they're used to, and vice-versa.

[@unholymackerel8072]

I whole-heartedly agree with the point you made of making the skins have only factory new wear. It makes so much sense for TF2, unlike CS:GO whose only form of customization are the wears of the weapon skins. In TF2 you have so many hats, paints, effects, and other things to make your class and load out unique that adding wears is just a dumb idea. Good video!

[@TheVirtualEconomist]

thanks man!

[@LD-sx9pr]

TheVirtualEconomist I think one idea is the wears are customizable like skins all start factory new, and there is a slider in changing it to battle scarred, this would remove pricing wears in skins, and you could change the skin wear anytime, does any of this seems flawed?

[@Hotomato]

Except some skins actually look better with worse wears

[@zacharyfeldman6822]

to those that'd bitch, just allow people to SET THE WEAR LIKE SOME COSMETICS HAVE DIFFERENT STYLES, BAM

[@PancakemonsterFO4]

Random Channel that would be awesome since you could decide yourself wich wear your gun has instead of being pissed because a desired skin of yours is overpriced in the state you desire so the only way to still get one is to buy a garbage well worn one

[@alphads2000]

So skins are bad because you cant make money out of them..... are you for real?

[@lun4r285]

There is one thing I love about unusual skins it's you can actually see the the effect and with hats only other players can see it

[@Yaboiwild]

When my strange festives dropped in price

[@unbindallgaming7556]

Skins are alright CHANGE MY MIND

[@5JSX5]

NO THEY ARE SEMI-DECENT TO GREAT HOW DARE YOU CALL THEM ANYTHING ELSE

[@busycrayfish259-videogamew4]

there is one w/ ducks this is racist to vegans

[@JavvyF61]

The demoman thinks you're racist CHANGE HIS MIND

[@davoodoh3137]

@@busycrayfish259-videogamew4 do you think being vegan is a race

[@t.o.h.b8501]

I just think they look cool

[@fagyu7502]

I used to have had a festivised strange killstreak smalltown bringdown mk1 in well worn and I absolutely adored the team themed skin with the gritty well worn aesthetic that perfectly fit soldier, was much cheaper to obtain than a normal killstreak strange rocket launcher, and I even sold it for basically double the price I got it for so it was definitely a success story for me.

[@ilikeoranges1408]

Aussies: Good Bot kill: Good Festive : Good Festifizer: Good Skins : Bloody Trash

[@CreatorOfTheRoom]

I like oranges you’re bloody trash too Mate

[@ludwigiapilosa508]

Maybe I DON'T want to be super flashy? Isotope is flashy enough. That and energy orb are great. Hot and cool are garbage Don't care what they do to the stupid economy. I want to make my character look nice. Good that many are cheap. Got my favorite wrench for 14 cents. Hate the skins that look like they came out of a Lucky Charms box. So we can agree on that.

[@vert3432]

Ruining the economy now will make it much harder to get the items you want later, no economy means no traders means no items for sale meaning MINIMUM $2.50 US to get the item you want, but thats only 1 chance out of a whole crate and you'll probs get some other crap in battle scarred.

[@knightofevropa9720]

*ARCHIMO TRIGGERED*

[@nipolopilis]

:^)

[@Archimo]

I put my "constructive feedback" just now.

[@jayjaygolden5123]

weapon skins should stand seperately from the weapon, it's tier, it's level, strange or not, etc. it should be something you equip onto your weapon, but can un-equip later. seperately. This will cause the value of skins to only be determined by the skin pattern, and it's wear. and potentially the weapon it can be applied on.

[@roboticjo2183]

Yeah, trading with them is kind of complex with no price.

[@trashyalice1756]

Robotic Jo including scrap.tf

[@woshee_real]

Pricing skins is pretty easy, just look at how much the avarage price of the skin sold for over the last week on SCM, take away 15%, and convert the final price into keys and ref and boom, fair skin price.

[@bloodygoodlad9297]

You are most defently jumping to conclusions i love all battle scared weapons

[@MrPain-nk3wh]

bloody good lad he said SOME weapons are themed with the different wears

[@eightball6219]

I've always thought the skins should never should have wear. Never really fit right. I've been trying to get a strange unusual rifle, but my problem has been finding a skin that doesn't look garbage with my loadout and there's a too many garbage skins regardless of wear.

[@TheVirtualEconomist]

Very relatable sentiment

[@kekohn8712]

well i have 1 you probably will like

[@eightball6219]

what's the effect?

[@kekohn8712]

effect: H O T :3

[@eightball6219]

Oh no thanks. I'm really looking for a Cool or Energy Orb effect

[@Revoniel]

GermanPeter: Skins affects the game TheVirtualEconomist: Skins affects the trade

[@krionellaka.thatguy7711]

I actually prefer battle-scarred or field-tested skins on quite a large bit of weapons.

[@Atomicrow]

Honestly I think they should be adding more reskins to non stock weapons. And by reskin I mean stuff like the postal pummeler and the three rune blade. There are lots of weapons that I love to use that just don't fit the look and feel of my loadout. Like my pyro loadout is space themed and I'd love to use the neon annihilator but it just doesn't look good. I'd rather prefer the third degree in terms of looks but the third degree is just terrible.

[@GrungeMan8]

From all the videos about skins. The only video i rly rly agree with. Is zesty's while this video does make sense since yeah trading with em its a complete pain in the ass. But just like Zesty said. No item was meant to be cashed into money. They added them for the fun money and our personal preferences to Make our loadouts look good

[@guymanguy]

This video aged like milk

[@Archimo]

I'm very offended! Jk, but could have been a good idea to contact me before making this video, I've seen quite an uprise in unusual weapon trading since jungle inferno and they most of the time sell for pure and at a faster pace than unusual hats. Pro ks, festivized, parts = same logic as if applied to strange weapons meaning it's not an issue and if you're picky you could always put on your own ks and parts. Most of the issues therefore only apply to mainly strange unusual weapons as it's like 10% of the unusual skins statistically. The reason why is because of the limited amount of skins and effects in unusual that are available compared to the amount of hats and unusual hat effects actually balances out the none strange unusual skins. It would be an issue if more unusual effects were available but seeing as there isn't well you could argue the exact same points for unusual hats and throw in the glitched ks for hats and paint as a variable if it's strange or parts etc. It's a bit like the wear counts as a sorta low -> high tier (nuts and bolts(battlescarred) -> burning flames (factorynew)) and effects don't matter much on the weapon for value and that actually balances the weapons pricing out way better and more reasonable compared to hats. (Hats being 8-6000 key ish range) while weapons tend to be higher on the lower and the most expensive weapons sold is at below 2000 keys. Basically if they added let's say 2 more unusual effects to skins it would start being a problem unless those effects are appliable by an effect changer tool which would be my suggestion to fix the problems that could occur with unusual effects on weapons. It would basically allow you to change the effect on your weapon for a small likely in store fee of the price less than a key. They should also make a tool for war paints like this that reverts it back into its actual war paint form when combined with a war painted weapon. These 2 things would fix the system completely though. Keep in mind all of this is with the fact in mind that the stuff cannot be priced on backpack tf and still they sell pretty well.

[@Archimo]

Keep in mind I do agree that the system is flawed but it's in the ways of lacking in store(+bonus item from unboxing) tools to revert war paints as said and likely one to change up the unusual effect of an unusual weapon as well. these two things won't be much different from when valve made so gifted items could get the gift tag removed, war painted weapons would go back at war paint price and unusual effects basically doesn't matter on skins for value.

[@Archimo]

Also unusual weapons are the reason australium weapons are dropping this hard because people sell their australiums to get unusual guns.

[@tings8346]

Archimo liking your own gibberish comments, so sad

[@Archimo]

+Zombie Parker currently the first one is 2 the next is 1 I'll go like them now so it will be 3 and 2

[@Archimo]

also it's not gibberish I'm the expert when it comes to unusual skins... How about growing some respect for the expert on the subject and actually realize why I didn't like my own comments but somebody else did.

[@Furrett]

With wears, I think we should be able to choose what wear we want at will so if someone prefers a skin at a worse wear they can still have that.

[@MrSam2497]

Me not giving a shit about skins and using the normal looking strange weapons i unboxed decade ago 🗿

[@matthewwysong644]

A possiblity is to make a metal sink thing for skins- a Refresher and Ruster. While it would probably be expensive, you could use it to change the wear on a skinned weapon up or down one rank. People would naturally gravitate towards using them, reducing the amount of metal in the economy, and it would allow customization. If you are worried about the cost to people stockpiling good wear skins, put a trade hold on things that have been changed- something about the paint needing to dry, or be used for so many times to it to become tradable again.

[@qxliow]

Yes!!! Finally a relevant video to the current economy

[@TheVirtualEconomist]

You know it!

[@Archimo]

If by "current economy" you mean before "jungle inferno". Most of the things in the video is from hat trading point of view disregarding most of the things count for hats as well.

[@user-sv3tx9gm6u]

How I think skins & war paints should work: -All skins are Factory New by default -Skin Customization Panel (wear slider, dust and blood toggles) -Strange stat clock tool not just for Civilian Grade -Skins can be bought off Mann Co. Store for $0.49 no matter what grade (that way you don't have to spend that much on your favorite skins) -An option for war paints to apply to existing weapons

[@2ndfunctionFTW]

What if there were a way to upgrade your tf2 skins and warpaints into factory new condition? Like if you fused them with ref or something to increase their wear. How would this affect the economy? Good or bad?

[@nicktheprick666]

It sounds like an interesting idea, but it would make higher condition skins decrease in value.

[@kevinzhu2610]

Most skins have a few buy orders on the SCM. If you are considering to trade for a skin, you don’t exactly need a set price value for that skin. just use the highest buy order for it on the SCM. Check the $ you get after the cut, and divide it buy the price of 1 key. ( for more expensive skins of course) Basically pure at the cost of waiting a week. (This doesn’t always work as there sometimes will be absurdly low buy orders)

[@MsArthurguerra]

No one: TheVirtualEconomist: FUNDAMENTAL

[@chochakman8162]

Hats off to that sweet play at 6:30

[@TheVirtualEconomist]

haha thanks man

[@megabusterm17]

10:56 "Look at this Factory New Current Event Scattergun." It's field tested.

[@TheVirtualEconomist]

whoops. I guess I meant field-tested.

[@MrPain-nk3wh]

ESP confirmed

[@rsswillz4832]

Weapon skins aren’t meant to sell to make profit, they are made to have a unique weapon. Just because trading is in the game doesn’t mean everything should give you profit.

[@Akuba]

Personally, I think factory new skins look nice but do not fit the the "war" aspect of this whole thing. I got a well-worn current event scattergun gifted and I prefer it over my strange one because I just love the look of it. I still have no clue why there must be item grades in TF2. Porting stuff from CS:GO to TF2 is a stupid idea and if they continue it they will just kill the economy aspekt of TF2 in the long run (atleast I think so). I can't wait for the next stupid idea they will put into TF2.

[@GrungeMan8]

Damn right dude. Battle scarred and well worn stuff represent the gore. The endless war and fights goin' on. The blood of your enemies and quite possible yours on your despicable looking weapon. And on then we have factory new which look like child's plastic gun play

[@domenernst6845]

My counter-argument: The Gentleamnn’s Collection.

[@kenzo8096]

they could also make it so that you can set how worn a weapon is, to keep that customizability there.

[@shadethedemonicprotogen4790]

Idea for finding reliable prices for low-selling warpaints and skins: Use the mean or median of the current sales for your price.

[@PyroJoe]

I agree - my main issue with buying them is just they're so hard to accurately price! Some skins look great, but they're virtually impossible to find a suitable price for due to lack of sales

[@TheVirtualEconomist]

Very true. Alot of times someone offers me a skin I like but I have to decline since I know I wouldn't be able to re-sell it.

[@Archimo]

If only you had a friendly youtuber unusual weapons guy you could ask about prices ;) what a Shame. Again I'd have loved if my opinion as a expert on the subject had been taken into consideration before this video were made seeing as many of the things against weapon trading counts for hats as well due to the massive amount of hats and unusual effects combination on them.

[@STULF20X6]

I'm actually kind of surprised someone hit on the factor thing I've repeated in a few places I'm mostly just a buyer of skins and seldom sell them. If I do, they're a high tier skin of some sort, such as a Factory New, Strange, High Roller Medigun, of which that took a little over a year with some flakes of buyers before it finally sold on Marketplace. I didn't mind if it sold or not as a buyer of skins, working towards Top Shelfs, but does prove a point you had with how difficult a sell may be Something I think that's important to touch on is that skins are also horrible to unbox and generally isn't worth it. As you said, there's five factors that determine the value of a skin or paint, and that carries over to the value of one fresh out of a case. With so much to determine on a skin or paint from a case, you're more likely than not to just lose money every time, and that's not even considering how difficult it'd be to sell anything short of something factory new and strange. So fixing skins isn't just to the benefit of the economy, but also to Valve's personal interests when it comes to making unboxing them worthwhile I have a few suggestions First, it doesn't make a lot of sense for weapon skins at their lowest grade from a case is mercenary while the lowest grade possible, civilian, is limited in quantity due to only being available via campaigns. There's an incredible disparity between the values of the two, and I think it shows how much of a difference it made when Jungle Inferno had some weapons at lower grades by mistake Second, the trade-up system doesn't do enough of what it's supposed to do. Ideally, the trade up system should allow someone to eventually get the items that they would want after unboxing so much. This isn't to say you're given things for free, but is to say after 100 case openings you should see most of what you would've wanted at a fair value. In regards to weapon skins and paints, the stat clocks is one of the things that not only addresses one of the rarity factors to a weapon with some work, but again is one of the things that helps you eventually get something you might've wanted after unboxing so many cases. The stat clock by itself, however, falls short in that there's only civilian grade clocks. Meaning you could open however many cases and still not get a strange weapon you might've wanted after unboxing enough times. This should be addressed by either making it so stat clocks, by themselves, can be traded up into higher grades, or make it so the weapons that you unbox can have the stat clocks applied to them. Otherwise, there's no point for anyone to even make a stat clock if they're not interested at all in the contract collections. Stat clocks trading up too still attaches a hefty enough of a cost so that it doesn't immediately devalue anything that was already strange I don't quite agree in your proposition to have had skins only factory new. Instead, let's build off of what we've seen. In addition to being able to trade items of certain qualities and grades into stat clocks, I think it'd be smart to introduce a means to refurbish or damage a skin. I'm not sure how damaging a skin would work, but a fresh coat of paint onto a weapon could be something like the stat clocks that require you to trade in five weapons of a certain wear to result in a kit that can increase a weapon to that wear from the previous one. It'd be really hefty and not solve every issue with paints and skins in the economy, but it would give a lot more power back to customizing your experience and hopefully level out the value of the paints and skins by introducing such a control. Perhaps even standardizing a skin's value to purely what the skin is and not the wear With war paints specifically, either redeemed ones need to be compatible with the trade-up system, or be revertible back into war paints. The latter would standardize the value of the item by the paint itself and not so much what it was redeemed on Finally, I actually like the unusual effects, but do agree there needs to be more variance. The things I mentioned before too should help by more or less making it so a weapon is either unusual or not, with exception to grade. I'd like to see the unusualifier concept expand to paints and skins, but realize that's a bit too much of an ask and would probably go much of the way the taunt market has gone

[@pp-ee3ui]

You just triggered Archimo beyond belief

[@Archimo]

I put my "constructive feedback" just now.

[@pp-ee3ui]

Archimo haha, I was just kidding, but that first sentence of your comment is funny.

[@jacehackworth6413]

Maybe they could make it so for all future war paints you can choose what wear a skin has from your inventory at any time. And to make the older skins not irrelevant or to make any worm weapons instantly equal the price of a factory new, you could get an item that you have to buy/earn and apply it to an old skin. Hell, they could keep war paints like they are and give you that theoretical item every couple times you level up in casual, killing two birds with one stone.

[@shenko_]

I'll be honest, this video speaks a lot even coming from me who honestly really likes weapon skins, but I do have a few things to say. 1) While wears do make certain weapons look pretty ugly, some skins for example from the warbird collection look pretty good in worse wears. Because the theme of the collection is mainly WWII themed weapons, which blood and scratches make you look like a Pearl Harbour veteran. But TBH, other than the Warbird collection, Concealed killer collection, or specific war paints like Bomber Soul and Hazard Warning, which make the scratches and blood stains feel right on a weapon, most skins just look better in Factory New and not in worse wears. 2) Didn't a community member by the name of Floro make a community guide how to price decorated weapons? steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=818926517 3) Ok, call me skeptical, a tryhard, or salty, but what's the point of playing a game if you are not playing the game? Why would someone's main reason for picking up TF2 be to make "LODSEMONE"? 500 hours in TF2 is a lot but you aren't getting the TF2 experience if you go to trade servers all day trying to replicate The Virtual Economist or PyroJoe's scrap to fortune. I'll admit, I'm a more gameplay person so I do have a certain negative bias towards the whole Economy, but no offense to the ones who made a fortune in this game, but I just feel like it is just a game, why you have to be mad about prices? All in all, it was a good video by Ben, just really not for a gameplay person like me who doesn't mind skins. Tho they do fuck up weapon recognition to a certain extent.

[@TheVirtualEconomist]

I would point out that just because a few skins (or collections) look good with wears, doesn't mean that all skins look beeter with wears. And yes, I know the primary reason TF2 exists is for people to play the game, not trade. However, that doesn't infer that Valve should ignore trader's demands. After all, like I said in the video, Valve could have easily made skins that were great for both casual players and traders. But they didn't for whatever reason. Btw, Floro is a pretty chill dude, he might just be the single person who knows the absolute most about skins. Anyone who is confused about skins in general should read his guide.

[@49mozzer]

The economy is shaped by the TF community. Not by Valve.

[@hi-i-am-atan]

+49mozzer Which is why you now find dirt I scooped out of my yard on TF2's marketplace, huh?

[@49mozzer]

If you managed to put physical dirt on a digital marketplace I'd be quite amazed before reporting you to the inquisition for which craft.

[@Luksed12]

I for example, play the game a lot. I also like changing my cosmetic loadouts once in a while. I sell my old cosmetics/skins and buy some new ones. The problem is, that I can't really sell skins.

[@derpyquagsire6678]

I feel like a wear thing should be determined by a slider like an usual effect slider so you can chose and change to which wear you want.

[@GoatyOfTheGOATs93]

"muh game economy" I don't like skins either and I don't intend to have any of them (But I also don't care about stranges, australiums. unusual or festives too) and my overral opinion is "who cares?!".. The majority of players don't involve themselves in the economy anyways, you said it yourself "valve did this to please it's casual community" and that's not a bad thing.. Skins are harmless in the overral gameplay, that's why I started my comment with "muh game economy" because that's the only thing they have an affect on and as long as it doesn't fuck with the gameplay, who cares?

[@Sammie_Sorrelly]

Yeah, the game economy isn't something Valve cares about or has a reason to care about because it's a game, and the items are there for the game, not for some imaginary economy that happens to have attached itself to the game.

[@Chuckles3100]

To be honest, I expected to be able to actually place them on pre-existing weapons that you already had in your inventory. At least for the war paints. Imagine a cardboard boxed Beggar's Bazooka.

[@DEWILL]

I really hate that they added wears on skins in TF2. Come on, because of CS:GO has one? Comprehensive, IF CS:GO HAD UNUSUAL EFFECT AND 9 CLASSES! Because of that the only skin (not reskin) weapons (sort of) i approve is australium weapons. Seems you're in the same boat with me.

[@TheVirtualEconomist]

exactly

[@qjack9472]

DEWI

[@Johnathan_The_Terrible]

Perhaps Valve could introduce a restoration kit which might involve contracts, MVM tours, or a metal sink, that could allow you to adjust the wear on a decorated weapon once applied.

[@mikebilboe1468]

YES! I love all of your videos man, and you introduced me to traiding, and although i just started ive made a decent bit of profit! I cant tell you how happy i am that you uploaded, and i hope you keep doing it!

[@TheVirtualEconomist]

thanks man! I'll try and keep the uploads coming, although I can't promise how frequently.

[@timgo5829]

Personally I disagree with your statement that wear makes weapons look worse. I believe som weapons look better battle-scared than factory new. That’s my opinion though and I respect yours.

[@perilousskillet5269]

What if valve did something along the lines of the item trade up that some halloween items have where you send in items to get something else but instead have it made so you put in your warpaint and it gives you a factory new version of it so that way everythings factory new but you also have the choice to leave your item as is just incase you like the wear on it the only issue i could see with this is weared items so how becoming worth more then factory new items but thats only with war paints like boneyard that have the special wears on them but besides that is would help make them more sellable while also giving people better looking items while also letting people keep weared items if they so choose

[@yolorl4379]

DerpMann But there is still a problem, if people can just change worse wear for a better one, the seller of that skin or warpaint is not going to be happy knowing that they are ripped of

[@BanicAttack]

i know this video is almost 3 years old, but the fact that there's two step 6's at 7:25 is kinda funny

[@GibusGang]

Solution: Create the weapon grades on skins as alternate styles.

[@blitzy2285]

What I think should be: -Unusual skins can only be factory new -Remove 'well-worn' and 'minimal wear". To have a clearer spectrum (So there is just: very bad, meh, good) OR just remove battle-scarred OR as in the video, just remove wear altogether. Removing wear as a whole is a really radical choice but I think, too, that that would fix the problem about trading skins. -Fix and add the cut unusual effect when the heavy update comes out.

[@p.m.4993]

I agree totally, but I dont care, I still like having them in game and wouldnt want them removed from the game

[@360blazeit2]

In my head would it be possible to make it so that wears of lower tiers could be combined to form a skin of a higher wear tier. For example, if you had a battle scarred skin for the rocket launcher that you like, you could select it and sacrifice three other skins of the same tier and get a well worn version of the skin that was initially selected. This would allow you to get the skins you want in a higher tier, not make everyone backpack more valued because you would have to remove a bunch of skins to get to factory new and also keeps the feeling of unboxing a good skin since you don't have to do anything to it.

[@I_love_Grant_Fisher]

Isotope is the only effect that doesn't make the weapon look ugly

[@Archimo]

*triggered*

[@JoJo-ze3fx]

i use the battle scarred war paints on the weapons i use the most cuz it gives me a feeling of "i've done so much with this weapon it's getting rusty" and i personally like that

[@vazaltur]

Maybe Valve should make all skins factory new and make already existing ones vintage.

[@TheVirtualEconomist]

I mean they could, but I don't being vintage would be enough of a selling point to make old skins not crash in value.

[@WilliamAncich]

The whole issue with too many combinations could be solved by making the process of applying killstreak kits, festivizers, and war paints reversible as well as making items with any of these tools applied unmarketable. That way you would have to first "decouple" weapons into their constituent parts before selling. It would also mean you aren't effectively burning money whenever you apply kits, festivizers, and war paints yourself since the standalone tool is more or less always worth more than the value it adds to an item once applied.

[@maxwell9561]

dude, you need to back up your opinions with facts, not just"wow battle-tested skins look bad"

[@xavis7617]

I know I'm six months late to respond to this, but that comment is cancer to the point that it physically hurt to read. You oversimplified what was said in order to belittle someone, which is something that even a toddler could understand to be wrong.

[@memethief5878]

Also, I use turbine torcher flamethrowers as currency when trading, belive it or not

[@Asf-bj4rw]

I don’t know if you stated this and I just missed it or not but this is all opinion I disagree with almost all the stuff you say in this besides for trading wise which I think it’s hard to trade them because they’re hard to find and backpack.tf doesn’t make it easy

[@kansiwiz]

Asf69 There are so many skins in the game that backpack.tf can't even track them all. EDIT: oh, I didn't read it. Dammit.

[@Archimo]

He should likely have asked an expert in unusual skins before making the video. *cough* me *cough* but they actually sell pretty well especially considering how they are not that easy priceable on backpack.

[@nicktheprick666]

I've had a lot of trouble selling skins but I think it can get better after a few years since more people will have more skins at different wears. Basically more of the same skins means more people buying and selling them leading to them being easier to price.

[@Archimo]

I figured I better also point out a few things about the unusual effects compared to taunts and hats: Taunt effects only pop up when you use them making you a "I'M HERE!" target hat effects works a bit like a bullseye but at least they are always shown but never actually shown to yourself. weapon effects are muted a bit down in first person but atleast you get to look at them while you play, they are more subtle and if they were flashy they would likely blind you while you play, cover up your screen or look terrible due to the mass mute they need to do to it in first person.

[@DallinBackstrom]

I think you're right, and IMO the main problem is that many skins are just fundamentally ugly or clash with the artstyle, even at factory new. I have a field-tested "alpine" skin that's one of my favourite items in the game, but so may of the other skins I as looking at before I bought that one where just... ugly. even ones that are much more "rare" don't necessarily look good at all, which is kind of a serious problem if you want them to have any value. But! I have an idea to fix this, and I'd like to hear feedback on it. We need a metal sink (other than hat crafting, seeing as basically no new hats are added to the crafting pool anymore) and realistically speaking, we need a way to recycle ugly, but high-rarity, skins. my suggestion? add a crafting system to improve a skin's "wear" level, at the cost of metal: I don't know what values would be good exactly, but you can imagine that something like 3-5~ refined per level of wear. Then, allow higher-wear skins, to display their lower-wear variants, for people who want that look; this way, even if everyone is upgrading their skins to factory new before selling them, a buyer could safely purchase a factory new skin even if they prefer the look of the more scratched up variant. heck, if that's too flexible, even just allow skins to be "downgraded" at the cost of a little metal. Finally, I suggest that we be able to recycle skins in a similar way to hats. take two skins of the same grade and combine them, and receive one random skin of that same grade in return. This would allow people who have practically unsellable skins-- like, say, for example the "tiger buffed" skin, which no one in their right mind would want to own; I'm sorry, but cheetah print is *not* in-- could take a hit by exchanging two bad skins for one that might be more liquid. Honestly I think the most important thing is some way to upgrade or recycle skins with low wear levels. some skins, like the alpine that I mentioned I like, look fine with low wear levels, but most look terrible; take for example the "jazzy" skin, which looks great at factory new, but is an abomination at basically any other level of wear. TF2's cartoonish art-style lens itself well to solid, bright colours, and suffers tremendously when those colours mix in with the rough-and-tumble, muted and worn look of the background elements...

[@daleksek5780]

Hello virtualeconomist!

[@TheVirtualEconomist]

hey there Dalek Sek

[@danielk9906]

They could make a "sprayer tool" to make scratches disappear, or jump one/two wear towards factory new, and a copy tool to change the weapon, that the skin is applied to. Dont know im a hoovy with a banana minigun :)

[@evisonesila8776]

They should hire you for Mann.co😃

[@el.262]

evisone sila lul marketplace.tf is better than that shithole

[@el.262]

Engi 64DDD marketplace.tf should hire him, fuck that opinion. my opinion is that i have a better opinion

[@el.262]

Engi 64DDD no actually, i forgot that i was subscribed to stabby and watched some of his vids for nostalgia and atleast consumed 12hours of tf2 vids. currently watching b4nny build a pc

[@JavvyF61]

Engi 64DDD he is using comedy, but I'm guessing a form you either don't understand or don't find funny

[@evisonesila8776]

Tbh I’m just happy that I got 8 likes

[@phantomasque1102]

The skins aren't as big of a problem as people originally thought they would be. When someone has a weapon skin, you can usually quite easily distinguish what gun it is by the sounds it makes, seeing how most guns have their own sounds now. Prime example: Shotgun, Reserve Shooter, Panic Attack. However, I also think that they should fix the glitch that makes white parts of weapon skins team colored on the ubersaw.

[@PlazmWraith]

I feel like this is just complaining because CSGO has the same exact thing and that’s doing just fine

[@perilousskillet5269]

Dip i dont know how people i have had to say this too but tf2 is not csgo just porting things over to tf2 dosnt always work and as someone who is trying to get into trading this is actaully annoying nobody wants to touch skins and because theres no base price on em i cant get ones i actually want because some 12 year old thinks its worth $50 dollars or something its frustrating when valve thinks that becuase something works in csgo it will work in tf2 thats like saying because something worked in call of duty it would work in overwatch its dumb, wrong, lazy, and just frustrating

[@PlazmWraith]

DerpMann it does work because they are practically the exact same economy, it just has to carry over, and there’s no base price because this is how rrading should be, you pay what you want and you ask for what you want, it shouldn’t be a set price

[@gristCollector]

Dip But that's how economies work, though. Both the seller and the buyer have to agree that this specific item has this specific value in order for the trade to be carried out.

[@TheDiner50]

First off I like the damaged look on skins far more vs the factory new shit. But not everything have a set price Grist Collector. Just a stupid statement. You traders are just here to make profit from a fun video game... Valve shoud not try and make you money. I rather like it if valve keep it in the game insted of in dollars in your pockets. Old car market is a good example of non set prices. The expenisve old cars that is worth a dam like old vw transporters have a sell value that is better recorded and accessible on the internet. They are classics and demand allot more money even if they are battle scarred with ugly rust. Yet a old VW Caddy you can pickup for a SUPER low price and get as good of a car in better condition just as useful for it's purpose. Maby even a mutch more fun car to drive. Btw there is ALLOT of old road running cars on the market. The non classic ones are in thousands of variants and you have to work with the seller for a price. Used cars 101. Not for the car flippers. Classic cars have a mutch more rubust price that you can point and say that this is what the trade value is for this car. This are the ones traders buys.

[@lubieplacki2772]

CS:GO is cancer.

[@evanstyle506]

I know this video is kinda old, and this is also sort of unrelated to the video, but I really want them to add a feature to get the certain pattern you want. In your inventory, then war paints, you are able to type in a randomize button and type a code for an exact pattern. The thing is though, you aren’t able to get it and you are only able to get the ones on the community market.

[@tearex_8443]

Agreed

[@frenchie1497]

Honestly, I don’t think the economy has been badly affected by the addition of skins/war paints - I think that high tier traders view these too much from a buy/sell viewpoint - most higher tier traders tend to buy/sell forever never really settling on 1 loadout/set. Skins aren’t meant like that, at least in TF2 (the CSGO comparisons don’t help) and instead most people are likely to opt for a single skin and stay with it for a long time as it is such a personal item. As a result the sellability isn’t really relevant - they are designed to be very personalised and individual hence the rng patterns on warpaints. Personally I don’t like the skins much as I like the look of stock weapons - but I don’t think they are a terrible addition. Lastly you said “A game about trading” in your ending arguments which I find a troublesome sentence as TF2 really isn’t a trading game - it has that option but it is by no means a “game about trading”.

[@samutraifin]

i quited TF2 when skins were first added and my head was just saying "great, now were gonna have TF:GO2 and i came back year later

[@GrungeMan8]

Imo tf2 skins are like 3 times better than csgo skins. Since tf2 universe is a more wacky and weird one where u can literally use space alien like weps like capper and stuff. But csgo? It looks like the guys there which look menacing Make em look like complete idiots being grown Man terrorists wielding a rainbow skin

[@minedark597]

Did you know that basiccally the australium medi gun you are using is just a weapon skin.

[@talinpeacy7222]

Treat wears as the purely cosmetic thing they are and make them removable/modifiable on skins as an additional option. By default, they are factory new, and if someone wants it to be worn, they just pay a scrap or maybe nothing at all to switch it to a different setting. As for the skins, i know conventionally it doesn't make sense irl, but in the game, you can just allow players to yank the skin off the weapon, and then sell the skin independently, same for warpaints. Now the premutations don't matter because people will be allowed to decide if they just want a cool looking weapon, or if they can request just the bits and pieces off it, or if the buyer is okay with it, maybe just buy the weapon and then mix and match the parts to customize their loadout to look just right.

[@TheMikirog]

How to make skins customizable yet sellable? - Keep the variations simple and defined. - Design once, avoid similar ones. - Don't do wears. If you can't resist doing them, do Styles that can be changed by having just one skin with the flick of a switch without owning two items that look similar. - Don't go over the top with the designs.

[@apersonontheinternet8354]

The main issue I have w/ them is that 95% of them are dogshit ugly, while the other 5% are great looking, but cost an arm and a leg. And it adds more complexity when making a loadout, because many skins clash with certain cosmetics.

[@Gnentle]

its more 50/50, if you look at the gun mettle update, all of those valve made skins were great, but then you look at most newer community war paints that consume most of the game that look like shit, smissmiss war paints.

[@nahfamalam3]

Simply:remove wears, make them unable to be obtained in unusual or to be killstreaked. (weapons that are unusual,would stay that way, killstreak weapons would be changed to normal and a killstreak kit for the particular weapon would be added to your inventory).

[@darry2885]

Also, forgot to mention, but Skins did not negatively affect the trading economy. Even if we're going off what you're saying, and people found skins hard as hell to sell, then the obvious option is to not sell skinned weapons, and instead continue to sell what you've always been selling: everything else other than skins. Seems all Skins did for the economy through your eyes is just add something that's *hard* to sell, but obviously not impossible. For most traders, I'd argue skins opened up another means of profit for them.

[@exaeta8018]

What I think Valve should do is release an unboxable "paint repair kit fabricator". This would require 12 ref to craft a "paint repair kit" which would improve the wear grade of a painted item by 1. Metal sink plus paint fixer.

[@red-black8138]

The reason behind weapon grades is so glacial glazed can look good. No community market isn't reliable in some cases. Off the steam community market my inventory would be worth like 200€ while i have like 25 keys raw and Maby another 5-7keys in other items.

[@delila5034]

Just two other problems you didn't quite mention: 1. Most skins are worth absolute butt fuck nothing and the ones that are cost way too much for their own good causing a huge rift between the skins in value. There really aren't any middle priced skins (between 5 ref and a key). 2. Skins have flooded the market. With how unique they are, trying to buy anything from the community market takes 3 times as long as it should as you have to wade through the pages and pages of crap you don't want. For example, if you wanted to buy a Black Box, you'd have to go through not only the normal strange, festive, killstreak etc, versions of the weapon to find the one you want, but now you also have to go through about 100 pages of skins with all the same factors and then some (really wish they'd add an exclude feature to the market).