Linus Torvalds thinks Java is a horrible language

In this interview Torvalds talks about Oracle and Java.
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[@fromfilmtocode]

Steve Carrel should make a movie about his story and linux.

[@denemeuyesi1212]

Wow they also look similiar too.

[@anilgeorge04]

Oh my god, I was just thinking that! Linux Office Suite.

[@perseusarkouda]

It's crazy, they do look similar and almost nobody has noticed it until now!

[@denistereshchenko2505]

*Screenplay by Aaron Sorkin*

[@georgeofhamilton]

“The Big Source”

[@michaelfitzgerald3344]

Screw it, I'll just learn x86 Assembly.

[@coulprit3498]

that and c maybe python

[@TomCarbon]

you'll end up in being more proficient lol

[@bcl56]

Goo

[@bentmercer]

I've coded in assembler for a job in the past, assembler is still my favorite. Python is a close second.

[@arunabraham9382]

Learn Rust

[@ManicEightBall]

I can feel the black hole of language flame wars sucking me in. I have to escape its gravitational field...

[@stefanplusplus917]

indeed

[@typhoon20724]

Great comment :D

[@KyrosNox]

Lol. War of the languages.

[@holyhexor_w]

Try 'exit' or 'return'

[@hexa3389]

I took ap cs. Now I will destroy any computer that has one line of java code written in it.

[@obinator9065]

language, except C: *exists* Linus: no thanks

[@dollaramaNoodleCup]

prissy bitch Linus is

[@ishdx9374]

@Daddy webdev is 🤢

[@ishdx9374]

@Daddy mainly because you have to develop in garbage language (javascript, or if you are lucky, typescript), dealing with frameworks and libraries written by uncle bob fanatics (which have bugs all around them), in the end it's so painful to do pretty much anything. i used to do webdev, but i'm glad i finally do systems programming instead

[@Tintak_hatpin]

@@ishdx9374 where are u learning systems programming from ?

[@ishdx9374]

@@Tintak_hatpin random places all over internet, try doing something like osdev, browser engine (or layout engine), emulators, programming languages, game engines etc

[@ericfricke4512]

0:57 Actually, it looks like Linus likes java.

[@hariranormal5584]

LOL THE COFFEE DRINKING?! LOLN

[@anmolsekhon768]

Irony

[@zyansheep]

More like *caffeine*

[@mayurbhor2231]

😂

[@Poojanthaker]

lol

[@CRogers]

Title should be: "Oracle: A horrible company."

[@puneetsharma2737]

))

[@CRogers]

D Grossi 1999 Watch the video, ffs. :P

[@raffaelehuang8360]

TBH I don't care Java or Oracle Linus is talking about. For me, they have been synonymous.

[@CRogers]

The problem is, Java was made by Sun Micro-systems and released in 2007 under the GNU General Public License, and Oracle has done their best since acquiring Sun to make Java non-free, after the fact. So the question is, do we let them do that?

[@tikabass]

An oracle can never be deterministic. That's where the problem comes from :)

[@stretch654]

He seems like a guy who would prefer to build literally everything in C.

[@obiwac]

Factually incorrect though, he's praised so many more languages and if I had to guess he probably has more gripes with C than Rust for instance.

[@haroldcruz8550]

Nah, Java is just that horrible.

[@aaaaaa-hh8cq]

java is bad tho. just use c#

[@smallcube-zn2mm]

@@aaaaaa-hh8cq C# = MS Java

[@smallcube-zn2mm]

@@aaaaaa-hh8cq make a C library which can emulate all feature of Java then use that library , the best way

[@AYUSHSINHAK-EC-]

This Linus guy seems smart, he should build some programming language or operating system

[@JanHDD]

And he did neither!!!! He wrote the Linux kernel not the os!

[@perseusarkouda]

@@JanHDD "Hello everybody out there using minix - I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." - Linus Torvalds 1991 Then the GNU guys who had a less evolved kernel chose to adopt Linux and became Linux + GNU. So yeah, he did wrote an operating system.

[@JoakimBB]

Best bait

[@denistereshchenko2505]

@@soumyaboral3354 Guess what? r/wooosh

[@soumyaboral3354]

@@denistereshchenko2505 maybe..

[@Potenti4lz]

LMAO. 'Ugliest autograph ever, I should have been a Doctor' Ahaha, what a sincere guy.

[@AndyU96]

Potenti4lz That is not sincerity, that is compensation

[@CanIHasThisName]

@@AndyU96 In some countries, the idiom "to write like a doctor" means "to have a horrible handwriting" and you can say "you should have been a doctor" as a response to their handwriting.

[@ishid_anfarded_king]

@@AndyU96 I think he was making a joke about his handwriting...

[@ishid_anfarded_king]

also Linus of all people should know that doctors nowadays make dog shit

[@lawrencedoliveiro9104]

Java was supposed to be simpler than C++. But it succeeded in keeping most of the complexity, while omitting such niceties as typedefs, unsigned integers and operator overloading. It also left out generics to begin with, then changed its mind and added them back--in a much more complicated way than if it had had them from the beginning. Trivia question: in C++, you use the word “new” to allocate an object on the heap; if an object is created on the stack, you don’t put “new” in front of the type name. In Java, all objects are on the heap, so you would think the word “new” would be redundant. Yet Java still uses “new”. Why?

[@justincameron9123]

"if you arent going to use the term 'new' exactly as it is used in c++ then why use it at all?" Who said they had to base its usage on how it was used in c++? Thats not at all a valid point. You could make the case for the term being redundant but thats about it

[@iamamish]

@@justincameron9123 that's exactly what he said though, 'it is redundant'. It doesn't add anything.

[@justincameron9123]

@@iamamish Which I acknowledged. Do you read the other half?

[@iamamish]

@@justincameron9123 Yes, the first half is what I'm talking about. The first half of your comment called OP out for suggesting the use of 'new' in Java had to be modeled after the way in which it was used in C++. But, he wasn't suggesting 'new' had to be used the same way as it was in C++. He was simply pointing out that C++ had a reason for the keyword, while Java did not. You conceded the point about redundancy at the end of your comment, as if it were a side point to his comment, but it was the entirety of OP's observation - namely that it is pointless to use 'new' in Java.

[@tdelfino2509]

JetBrains clearly had the same idea with "new", which is why it's not part of the Kotlin language at all

[@grrr1351]

java is my language. I live in java, Indonesia. I feel offended

[@davidkennedydev]

+Jiz Tom It's not about Java programmers, is about the language it self. A Developer need understand that and learn more than one language and decide what use on each problem solving, on each context.

[@grrr1351]

David Kennedy Araújo it's a joke man

[@MrOperettalover]

+Jiz Tom As a Java programmer you shouldn't be smart enough to be offended. Something is wrong here. Maybe you're really really bad at it? Just searching for an escape route for you.

[@Placid_Cat]

+MrOperettalover Java is also a place, he's making a joke. It's "you should be smart enough to not be offended". What escape route are you offering? None that I can see from that asinine comment.

[@MrOperettalover]

***** Linus Thorvalds "I don't really care, I mean Java, what a horrible language": We don't need to Linus word for it. Everybody can search at google for source code and at the very first page they find they see Java is so verbose, no sane person would ever like to write or read it. It's a language for complete morons basically.

[@1karaden]

It all depends what you want to do. Linus thinks as a system programmer so being as close as possible to the machine is important, then he prefers to stick with C. It says C++ is horrible too, etc.... When your goal is to write a business application for instance, C will probably be too low level and your programmers will be more efficient with a language that does not require 3 lines of code to copy a string to another (it's not a troll, it's a joke). That said, C is great for OS programming and was created in this purpose.

[@rajinfootonchuriquen]

It's just one line of code like anything else 👀.

[@titoli1]

Dude you are trying to argue with the father of Linux that literally wrote the software that the whole world is running on.

[@ericvosselmans5657]

@titoil (?) Fake news. My laptop isn't running on ​Linux.

[@pyotrilyichtchaikovskyii6638]

@@ericvosselmans5657 Your toaster is.

[@ericvosselmans5657]

@@pyotrilyichtchaikovskyii6638 So I heard

[@vaylonkenadell]

So, turns out it *wasn't* a good idea to run it on 3 billion devices.

[@fevicoI]

Linus spitting facts. Oracle tried to push every feature from every language into Java. I worked 10 years with J2EE and so many drastic changes make no sense to me. I think the language was good but a bunch of people made it a cash cow.

[@syntaxerror8955]

Although of course one doesn't necessarily have to use the newer features of Java.

[@jean4j_]

@@anon8510 more "functional" features perhaps? I don't see how they are bad. Besides the same could be said a lot of languages.

[@jean4j_]

@@anon8510 Yes definitely. I think functional features are good. I'm more of a Scala developer myself. Well 50% Java- 50% Scala. I agree. I don't know much about C#, would you mind sharing in what way C# is better than Java in your opinion? Would you say C# = Kotlin?

[@CoreDump451]

@@jean4j_ I think Kotlin is one of the most beautiful languages I have written in. A real pleasure to use. Unfortunately, I don't have much experience with C#, so I can't really say how it compares to Kotlin. I honestly don't see why people hate Java so much, though. I really don't see that many problems with it. It's nothing spectacular but I don't mind working with it. I am currently working on a Java with Spring Boot project and really enjoying it. I really like working with C on my personal projects, though.

[@jean4j_]

@@CoreDump451 I definitely don't understand the hate towards Java. Most of people only think of Java before Java 8. They think of super complex projects that were often poorly designed with massive use on inheritance. Java has evolved and has an ok syntax. More concise (type inference, records, fp features, etc...). I don't get why people hate Java so much and love python that much (being a data engineer I've used Python a lot). Have you tried Scala? Pretty similar to Kotlin in many ways

[@tusharagarwal5306]

There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses. -Bjarne Stroustrup

[@999a0s]

linus has been programming longer than 98% of you in the comments, and kernel development (what he does) is one of the hardest fields in programming. instead of dismissing his opinion you might want to realize that he most likely knows a lot more about programming than you. there is a reason he says java sucks and nobody in these comments is really getting it.

[@The_Ballo]

999a0s Shh, you're dealing with people who passed tests at a university in Java-ology. They know everything!

[@insect212]

999a0s There are probably people that have been programming longer than him that think Java is a great programming language. I don't care how impressive Linus is just becuase he says something sucks doesn't mean he's wrong. Although in this case I personally agree with him, I just don't want him infallible.

[@Sanchellios]

999a0s Well, Linus is a great system-programmer. He writes in C. Every language have it's purpose. Java is quite good in creating web-services and in server-side programming, but C is not that language that could solve problems easily in this. But, for sure, it is impossible to write drivers on Java, so that's why Java sucks at point of Linus. Nobody could be right for 100%, because we are all humans, we make mistakes. So, Java is really good for web, and C is good for systems, that is truth. Some dislikes, opinions etc. - just emotional stuff.

[@The_Ballo]

Александр Василенко Yeah, which is why Java is losing traction on the web to django and asp. Oracle tried to copy OPENSTEP/WebObjects but I'd argue they failed technically. They succeeded in giving it away and thus getting a foothold in universities which is the only reason we're stuck with it.

[@programmingandfinance8239]

999a0s yes respect the experienced

[@ca1977a]

I grew up with strongly-typed languages and I'm a big fan. Anything that gets errors caught by the compiler, rather than at run time, is good in my books. (For the same reason I was initially very skeptical of frameworks like Spring, which seemed at first to be mainly a system to push compile-time errors into run time and then make them hard to debug, but I'm slowly seeing some benefits...)

[@damiengates7581]

yeah I love Java, because I know when I write the code it's just going to work

[@-..-_-..-]

there are good strongly typed languages too btw

[@patiencebear]

@@-..-_-..- You have a fitting user-name xD. I'm a Java Dev, but that made me chuckle. Thanks.

[@Guide4Ever]

TypeScript gang does not approve of the last part of your comment. You are not here and maybe not here. You either are or you are not!! *makes an angry face*

[@RegularTetragon]

Haskell is even more strongly typed than Java and has none of the suck that Java has. In fact the type system is so strong you don't even need to declare types, the compiler figures it all out with an extremely powerful type inference algorithm. Type declarations exist solely for the programmers benefit as they make type errors the compiler gives you a little clearer.

[@tzaeru]

"it wasn't designed for readable code" .. Ahahahhaha!

[@pieterrossouw8596]

I prefer C, Python and C# to Java, but languages should be viewed as different tools for different applications... Lots of respect to the guy, and there are legitimate reasons for hating Oracle, but saying Java is a horrible language is a bit rough, quite arrogant and ignorant.

[@CreativeVery]

Lol, congratulations! You pointed something out that anyone with a brain would have noticed. I really don't know what you had planned to achieve by demeaning him, but I'm sure it worked out for you. Quite redundant and obnoxious.

[@rushyscoper1651]

true java have a lot to offer and we should look at them as a tool i think when said Java is a horrible language he was speaking about its syntax i mean i am java dev but i cannt blame other when they hate on java syntax

[@CreativeVery]

Bundi Clionie Lol stfu.

[@rushyscoper1651]

***** first i dont hate Linus i love the guy but most of opinion is based on him being kernel dev java maybe suck in desktop app or mobile or jvm slow etc but if he where to be backend web dev he would think a little highly of java because no one does distributed systems better then java he hate c++ because it crap in kernel dev and he call ppl that program kernel subdeveloper but if he would have been working in high gaming like gta he would have to use c++ coz nobody does it better language are tool hate or love them and a programmer jop is to use which tool fit his task the most and let us be honest in programming world languages are religion only in programming where i become atheist

[@valentinrafael9201]

If he was to reply to you he would probably say "people are different and it's great that you disagree with me". He is a great dude. I think he has a lot of fun throwing words and look at others reaction.

[@john42t]

"The syntax was designed to appeal to C++ programmers..." It's way too simple, readable and grammatically unambiguous to appeal to C++ programmers.

[@LiberatedMind1]

You mean verbose, boiler plated, and convoluted.

[@procerator]

@@LiberatedMind1 if you think Java syntax is convoluted - look at some of C++ STL files. Templates and pointers to functions make C++ code nigh unreadable.

[@KishoreG2396]

@@procerator std::nonowning_memory_resource resource{};

[@gnaurai6251]

@@KishoreG2396i have vietnam flashbacks from std::allocator, basically unreadable unless there are constants

[@obinator9065]

procerator Well type deduction makes them usable for the average one. But goddammit when you look the internals up...

[@InXLsisDeo]

I suspect Linus actually has very good taste in programming languages. His view on the Java language is largely shared, but he has a unique view on it from the perspective of an OS designer, where low level control of memory and hardware is paramount. He very well knows that Java was never designed for these tasks, but still, he speaks with his heart. Knowing his own limits, he would probably refrain from saying such things about Lisp or Haskell, for instance.

[@Big-Chungus21]

10 year old comment but i do agree. Python isnt an awful language for example, but if you try to write an operating system with it i will literally break into your house to stop you.

[@youtubeenjoyer1743]

@@Big-Chungus21 Python is an awful language. The only reason it's popular is its huge library of modules, just like Java was (and still is to an extent).

[@adib-enc]

@@youtubeenjoyer1743 at least python helps to build AI like these days, even though with the foundation of other language

[@barbados3592]

@@Big-Chungus21 as a guy who uses python, I'd help you stop me 😂😂😂

[@barbados3592]

@@youtubeenjoyer1743 do you regard any dynamic language as genuinely good, and if so which one(s)?

[@roryb.bellows8617]

Can't believe he said that to an Indian, that's like their second language

[@viewtifuljoe4412]

All I know is Doom is written in C \m/. I wish to program (not saying it will be easy, I just want to be prepared) What book can give me information of programming skills to know/have and a solid foundation before I begin?

[@asuasuasu]

+Viewtiful Joe Read the cplusplus.com tutorial. it's pretty good even if it's not a book.

[@viewtifuljoe4412]

Asu Whoa! This is great! Thank you.

[@haroldcruz8550]

read the glibc source code, if you're in debian $ apt source glibc The Linux Programming Interface: A Linux and UNIX System Programming by Michael Kerrisk Linux Device Driver Book 3rd Edition by Jonathan Corbet Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment by Richard W. Stevens UNIX Network programming also by by Richard W. Stevens The 2nd Edition of Advanced UNIX Programming by Marc J. Rochkind Start small, don't try to take on the entire Kernel, creating a driver is a good first step. If you don't mind a video tutorial, try UEFI Dev (in C) by Queso Fuego

[@haroldcruz8550]

read the glibc source code, if you're in debian $ apt source glibc The Linux Programming Interface: A Linux and UNIX System Programming by Michael Kerrisk Linux Device Driver Book 3rd Edition by Jonathan Corbet Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment by Richard W. Stevens UNIX Network programming also by by Richard W. Stevens The 2nd Edition of Advanced UNIX Programming by Marc J. Rochkind Start small, don't try to take on the entire Kernel, creating a driver is a good first step. If you don't mind a video tutorial, try UEFI Dev (in C) by Queso Fuego

[@haroldcruz8550]

read the glibc source code, if you're in debian The Linux Programming Interface: A Linux and UNIX System Programming by Michael Kerrisk Linux Device Driver Book 3rd Edition by Jonathan Corbet Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment by Richard W. Stevens UNIX Network programming also by by Richard W. Stevens The 2nd Edition of Advanced UNIX Programming by Marc J. Rochkind Start small, don't try to take on the entire Kernel, creating a driver is a good first step. If you don't mind a video tutorial, try UEFI Dev (in C) by Queso Fuego

[@dansanger5340]

Linus is a kernel developer, where it makes sense to use C. To make the leap from there and conclude that C is best for application level development is absurd. Preferring C over C++ for application level development is an act of mindless developer machismo. That being said, anyone who has developed in other modern OO/multi-paradigm languages such as C++ and C# and then develops in Java is instantly struck by how dated and minimalist it is. It doesn't have basic features such as delegates/function pointers and lambda expressions, which really makes for verbose code. That's not surprising, since Java was designed to run on every device down to a circa 1995 smart watch, but that era of computing is fast drawing to a close. Even smart watches today have decent computing power, so it's really not necessary to have such a minimalist language. Now, Java is addressing some of these deficiencies in its latest iteration, but it sure took them long enough.

[@dansanger5340]

PwnageDev You're right that I'm not familiar with EE, but my impression (possibly incorrect) was that the difference was only in the libraries, not the language itself. I don't really have any complaints at all about the Java libraries. I think they're great. I used to think that C# was very similar to Java, until I had to port an application from C# to Java, and the lack of lambdas and delegates (references to class methods) became very apparent. In Java, you have to substitute an inner class or anonymous class, which makes the code really ugly and verbose. This pattern shows up all the time in event-driven UI code, regardless of platform. To someone who hasn't experienced it, it may seem like a minor inconvenience, but believe me that it gets old real fast when you have to type unnecessary class declarations hundreds of times just to set up handlers for a UI event (see below for a small example). And a LINQ-like library in Java is almost pointless without language support for lambdas and closures, because it would be extremely verbose and virtually unreadable. Fortunately, Java 8, released just a few months ago, has support for lambdas, but it will take a while to trickle down to all the tool chains and platforms. class CSharpUIClass { public CSharpClass() { button1.SetClickHandler(HandleClick1); button2.SetClickHandler(HandleClick2); } private void HandleClick1() { ... } private void HandleClick2() { ... } } class JavaUIClass { public JavaUIClass() { button1.setClickHandler(clickHandler1); button2.setClickHandler(clickHandler2); } private ClickHandler clickHandler1 = new ClickHandler { public void handleClick() {...} } private ClickHandler clickHandler2 = new ClickHandler { public void handleClick() {...} } }

[@op9836]

Java == Bloat nuff said

[@dansanger5340]

PwnageDev The C++ standard libraries don't address GUI, so any bloat in a C++ GUI library is on the library author. Actually, many of the GUI libraries used in C++ development are C libraries, since C++ has no problem calling C functions, and that's the lowest common denominator.

[@dansanger5340]

PwnageDev Yes, I agree. I didn't understand what you meant by bloat.

[@op9836]

Java is bloat, execution is slow its just in general a garbage language there is no reason to use Java over C or C++. C has speed in aces all day over C++ or Java, properly written code in C will be much smaller than the same program in C++ or Java. C just trounces the competition. and btw no not all GUI libraries are slow, they just appear to be slow because you are/were using an abstracted C++ version of a C library. and people use C for GUI all the time, Linux+X11 are both written in C, Microsoft Windows uses C for their GUI, OS-X uses Obj-C, SDL is written in C it powers pretty much every modern-quake based game, Cocoa2d is written in Obj-C. C in some shape or form powers(powered) roughly 94% of all software, the remaining percentage is software either written before C's creation, or software that never had a single interaction with C either in the languages creation or pulling in libraries translated from C. so basically C owns your favorite language even some of the older revived languages probably use C in their creation of compilers/interpreters. in the case of compilers at least until they were self-compile-able.

[@Moshikashitenai]

Haha, I love that! I love how you completely blew off every question I asked you.

[@nickfunk9946]

I'm going to refrain from jumping on the bandwagon and go a different way with this. For the sake of staying impartial, I will say that I primarily do not use C or Java professionally but have used them in the past and know them both well. Linus is a smart man with a tool set and workflow that he prefers. There are undoubtedly many others who are also smart people with different tool sets and workflows they prefer. Do not take this man's word as gospel, it is but one data point in a sea of many. Is Java better than C? Is it better than C++? This is kind of a silly question. The question you should ask yourself is: Is it better for you?

[@obiwac]

Is isn't a silly question though. Not all languages have their use. Some can absolutely be better designed than others, and be better at all tasks than others. To take an extreme example, you wouldn't say brainfuck is a viable language for any niche, right?

[@CoreDump451]

@@obiwac True, but I think a lot of the language wars seem to happen with mainstream languages that have clear uses more than niche or small obscure languages.

[@javasoldier5926]

LOL. He forgot to mention that C or C++ is also terrible horrible and even sadistic if used in enterprise development))

[@Bastro3000]

I don't know much about Java, but I do find its "Hello World" pretty ugly: class HelloWorld { public static void main(String[] args) {System.out.println("Hello, world!"); } } :S

[@Bastro3000]

+Александр Василенко Piss off a Java fanboy: Check :P (write-line "Sue me :D")

[@Sanchellios]

***** is that all you can say, piece of shit?

[@Bastro3000]

+Александр Василенко Just joking around. Go on and code with Java if that can make you feel any better. I couldn't care less! I know C++ pretty well and find it quite ugly too. That doesn't mean it's absolutely useless and unlikable :) class HelloWorld { public static void main(String[] args) {System.out.println("I'm outta here. Good night!"); } }

[@Sanchellios]

***** Talks about ugliness of the language is a strange thing. Languages are made to help you solve problems - nothing more. You want to write soft for the scalable servers - write in Java or Scala. You need to write native code for Android or drivers - write in C++. If you want to make your web-site interactive - write in JavaScript. If you want a true beauty of code - write in Lisp. (format t "Good Luck")

[@nemanja747]

+Sébastien Laberge It is a shity language

[@fernandizo]

As a computer engineer I've used a crap load of programing languages. Comparing c, c++ and java is like beating a dead dog. Of course c runs faster than java if your c code is optimized well. Generally speaking the way most programmer write their c code its not and contains a BUNCH of redundancies and pit falls that may not be obvious to the best coder. Java may run a few miliseconds slower but its easier to write and contains a lot of checks c/c++ don't adding to debugging time in the hours.

[@OpenGL4ever]

Rust is a great replacement for C and C++.

[@obiwac]

Okay but that's assuming C and Java are the only languages in existence. There are many other languages that fill the same need as java. He didn't say "anything other than C is horrible", he said "java is horrible"

[@CoreDump451]

@@obiwac But why is Java horrible? What's the problem with it?

[@roganjosh6220]

@@CoreDump451 (my understanding, not Linus's) ignoring the optimisation point (even though Java apps all seem to use the same shoddy slow unresponsive frameworks for typical apps), and the issue with over-verbose code (making programmers basically auto-correct champions instead of coders), the language fails to be simpler than low-level code by requiring OOP principles which make the code less readable (more esoteric, not C++ but still) and longer overall (file-per-class is ridiculous, patterns are not easier than C to learn and utilise properly). Other than that, unit testing is decent with all the classification you'll be doing, but effective implementation should probably be lazily done when errors arise to avoid productivity being halved by this task alone, making the focus of using Java for unit testing excessive when considering all it's other pitfalls stated here

[@nitishmd]

Well Linus and James Gosling are both amazing programmers! Its oracle that brings in all the shit!

[@gregh5061]

@Felipe Gomes uh... because he created a programming language that is being used by hundreds of millions of people ? That certainly puts him above average, even if you don't like java

[@sorcerereye]

@@gregh5061 But, that doesn't mean Java is a great language. Example: Millions of people are believers of any god (Jesus, Allah, whatever), and that isn't good, it's terrible. Equals to Java

[@alaaawad7180]

@@sorcerereye the idea of JVM is wide used now a day even by google themselves, JAVA changed the whole software land and forced apple and microsoft to counter it with their own close cross-platform like .net. to say that not impressive is pretty silly, its not about used its about how complex and new this concept where.

[@ahmede.1375]

@@sorcerereye it’s actually terrible to not believe In a higher power…

[@R370RD]

I love both Linux and Java. I guess I'm dumb or some shit...

[@desperateloner8555]

Look at all these language experts in this comment section

[@GlimmerOfLight]

Yes, I heard that. But the advantage is not so much that it can query for the hardware - compilers can and do the same thing, and you can usually recompile on your target machine. The one theoretical advantage lies in dynamic optimizations that rely on execution patterns. In practice, most of those are hard to achieve. Prof Appel (Princeton) and some folks at Google did experiments with "real life" code. They are all in line with my results: Java is typically 3 to 6 times slower than C/C++.

[@Roflcopter4b]

I think he meant at that basic level. When I was sixteen I picked up a book on C++, watched a few videos, and was programing very basic console games and that sort of thing within a week or two. That much IS easy. What isn't easy is actually getting beyond that to do something useful, and on that I definitely agree with you.

[@hmm-bw4pg]

can someone link the whole interview please.

[@lethalsub]

Which 'html' are you referring to... HyperTextMarkupLanguage or HyperTrollMarkupLanguage?

[@jonaslorik]

"It's the ugliest autograph, I shouldve been a doctor" xD

[@asoidfhowehjr8248]

"I should have been a doctor." Linus Torvalds haha

[@muhammedyasinhanyasar539]

Java: every thing is reference in here. Ram of your pc: let me go.

[@googleuser8512]

what's the problem with references and ram?

[@TheBigLou13]

You must be new to computers. In modern programming (python, go, JS,..) its rare that something is _not_ a reference (a pointer). Additionally all primitive data types (int, float, double, byte,...) *are no references in java.* Your argument is invalid on many levels.

[@muhammedyasinhanyasar539]

@@TheBigLou13 dude it is a very beginner level info. But Thanks. By the way primitive types also get place from ram. Evrything is in ram. Heap and Stack terms are just an abstraction layer for our memory. That was just a joke.

[@Pauli650]

oh and perhaps i misunderstood your first statement but are you saying high level languages dont execute directly on the CPU? i.e. they are always interpreted? ??

[@wookoouk]

I love Linus's (continued) work on Linux but I am a huge Java fan. Yes C is a fantastic language but for my interests low level programming is never required.

[@kimkong9391]

Woohow to run java application in Android we need low level programming

[@tanura5830]

@@kimkong9391 yeah but you don't need to rewrite it people already did the low level programming stuff for us

[@obiwac]

He said "Java is a horrible language". Not "anything other than C is a horrible language".

[@codeaperture]

Haha it's 2021 and this never gets old.

[@irisaacsni]

I think that Linus said that Java is horrible in the context of kernel programming, he is not a web developer.

[@groberti]

+Isaac Monteiro well yeah, try programming the web with C, good luck I guess :) Each language has its use.

[@groberti]

***** actually you pretty much need to use HTML with Java, too. PHP is a rubbish language but Ruby, the language itself is pretty cool I like it, and I've heard that the Rails framework is good, too. The sad thing is I'd love to learn it but in my country they usually look for Java or C# developers

[@groberti]

***** How is PHP faster than Java? How is Minecraft slow? I guess your just a generic Java hater, you just hate Java because you think it is cool to do so. PHP is by no means faster than Java lol. Plus at scale Java is much better than PHP because PHP has no proper multithreading capabilities.

[@groberti]

***** And what security issues are you talking about? omg you know nothing about this xD

[@groberti]

Tarikul Islam oh I hate Python with a passion :D But I bet it is great, a lot of people seems to like it

[@shekcbanny]

But can you develop backend web, or other graphical ui app from C? Ie without atleast taking double the time than you would take in high level languages like Java???

[@Darthvanger]

Why would it take the double time? Do you have to write more code in C? Javascript is similar to C, and it is popular for developing GUI. In Java you have to create a class for everything... How does that speed you up?

[@shekcbanny]

@@DarthvangerBecause C and C++ are close to metal than Java/Javascript and are more suitable for hardware programming rather than software programming. Because 1: C compiles to native binary language specific to machine it runs on and hence is less portable compared to JVM ( or V8 ) or similar solution 2. Memory management is manual so lot of extra code and care required just to make sure no memory leakage and error 3. No useful framework and libraries (ecosystem ) for web application programming compared to other high level languages. By the way Python, Javascript, etc calls APIs written in C/C++ under the hood and are 'sufficiently' fast for 90% of apps out there

[@Darthvanger]

@@shekcbanny wow thanks for replying after 5 years of your original post 😅 Agree about memory management, though I never really tried to code in C :) Regarding the UI libraries, there is GTK, it's for Gnome. I think it's more popular than Java or JS for Linux.

[@shekcbanny]

@@DarthvangerFor Operating System GUI development, Yes, C ( and C++ ) are (way) more popular. In system programming and hardware programming also (embedded, controller programming ,etc ) C is way more popular because of how close to metal it is ( can be mapped 1 to 1with assembly , manual memory management , etc ). However, it is not preferred for higher level programming ( web, desktop, mobile applications, backend, Data science, etc ) . In that space, it is mostly Javascript ( in the frontend as well as backend ) and Java/.net/python/Javascript/Golang, etc in the backend. And these kind of programming , I guess account for the vast majority of developers out there. Although the underlying technogies in those mentioned stack might be written in C/C++ (eg node.js internally has C++, python has C/C++, etc) but dev in these stacks dont have to worry those inner implementation details

[@volundrfrey896]

The only reason some people love java so much, and get so defencive about it, is because they don't know any other language.

[@Sanchellios]

it seems to be, that you don't know any programming language at all

[@Veri7a]

+Александр Василенко #shotsfired !!

[@dvoulio]

A correct statement if you substitute C++ for "Java"... :-)

[@asuasuasu]

+dvoulio Why exactly? Java is a bloated language.

[@tamascsala8374]

+dvoulio there wasn't a single occurance of the "Java" string in the original post (only "java"), so yes, it was a correct statement after all.

[@harimohan2840]

I guess his system programming background led him to think that way. Java , well, it's heavyweight and like Larry Wall said, 'it looks like it's getting loads done by making simple tasks more lengthy in execution'. Personally even noticed performance difference in a certain Java program and the corresponding Python program. But in the end, it's awesome for web, especially server end. Personally I like minimalist languages like C and Python. "There's a tool for every task and a task for every tool" -- Tywin Lannister(thought it was relevant :P)

[@meghanachauhan9380]

Fuck java is gay

[@Seff2]

@@meghanachauhan9380 Really nice arguments you put up here, food for thought. Also very eloquent writing style, makes reading your 4 word article a breeze. Always apreaciate it when peope with lots of knowlegde bring up their expertise in such an unbiased manner.

[@tzaeru]

Yes. I just found it hilarious that there was such an argument in defense of a programming language. To me, 'good code' also means 'readable code'. I also think that the principle of having "simple, robust and object-oriented" language would lend itself to serve the purposes of readable code. There's also no reason to think anything in Java, can just as well think stuff in general OOP or other paradigm and then implement the solution in the language of choice, that might lack Java's silliness.

[@prakashpandey1770]

After coding in c/c++/java/python/golang/rustlang my favourites are Golang: I use it where I can Rust: I use it where I should Python: I love it and use it for prototyping. Also, I have huge respect for c/c++ and Erlang.

[@bigshrekhorner]

I have coded in C++/C, Python, a bit of Java and a bit of Assembly and I have used Bash extensively and Batch a little. My opinion on them: C++: I am essentially a C++ fanboy, I love it, even if it has its quirks. C has similar sentiments from me, but I hate the way it handles I/O. Python: I use it only for stuff that I am too "bored" to tackle with C++, like making a quick graph or calculation. I am not a huge fan and I find it not so minimalistic as I'd like (as in, you'd need to remember a lot of stuff by heart), but I see its appeal. Java: Java wants to be what Python is. Buit it's implemented horribly (seriously, who thought making a VM for just running a program was a good idea?), and it's so fucking difficult to learn due to its overly OOL design. I hate it, period. Assembly: Ah, assembly. The near machine language. When I saw how minimalistic it is (especially when you tackle stuff like RISC-V Assembly, although I have used on a practical level only x82-64 assembly) I was pleasantly surprised and liked it a lot. It's not as difficult as you may think when you hear the term "machine language" and it's fun experimenting around with it. Now on scripting languages: Bash: Ironically, Bash seems like Python in some parts, but with a more limited purpose (as in being a scripting language, not a fully blown programming language) and of course without the OOP design, yet I like it 10x more. Maybe because it doesn't try to be something comparable to a fully blown programming language Batch: It's a weird mix of Bash and logic you'd find on Assembly languages. I am not so sure how to feel about this one.

[@TazG2000]

OO has limitations that can make "solving business problems" difficult, which have led to best-practices and principles that are actually contrary to the basic principles of OO (like like "composition over inheritance"). The fact that "any business" is built upon it (which is not true) says more about the stubbornness of the businesses than the programmer. (cont. 2)

[@dantecolo4596]

Java is crosscompatible and allows programmers to create many things faster , but if you compare java to c or c++ software , will always be slower and consume a lot more system resources.

[@loki6841]

whats his views on javascript

[@GathGealaich]

"And please, corner-case artifacts showing the JVM beating native code are just that." There are ways of improving performance of static native code in a JVM-ish way in C++ and Go - just use profile data to do speculative inlining and speculative specialization, perhaps with runtime guards. Go is actually a prime candidate for this kind of compilation as it's essentially designed to do closed-world linking (in C++, this still wouldn't work across shared libraries, but that's a price to pay).

[@zollen123]

It would really help if he could elaborate why Java is such a horrible language...

[@LemonPieLoL]

Because it's anything but simple. The VM is also prone to a flaw or two.

[@TheAtheistScientist]

LemonPieLoL When you code in c++ programmer is prone to a flaw or more

[@zollen123]

Linux is not a religion, stop worshiping that guy.

[@LemonPieLoL]

***** Python. Lol. Stephen Kong find me a better prophet and ill worship him instead. Common Man True, but at least that's within your control. Just to clarify.. I don't actually hate Java.

[@gl_tonight]

He did, it's because google was sued for using it years after they had blessing to do so.

[@PietroNardelli]

I respect his opinion but Java can offer everything from default without the addition of external libraries, gui, graphics, Web. Now for kernel and hardware programming Java is not a good language.

[@sefosf3402]

"Java can offer everything from default without the addition of external libraries" Tell that to my maven repo...

[@prometheus0534]

Okay. Can anyone please make a Tutorial how to Program an OS?

[@greg77389]

Expert coders: *exist* Indian guys: I would like to learn from you.

[@tomer073]

MY BOY LINUS SPITTING THE STONE COLD TRUTH

[@andreasmoller1884]

Java is all about how you with every update, can force users to write even more code, to do the same tasks, that no longer works like they used to do.

[@clammaster4]

i'm being held hostage, oracle wants me to tell you that theres java updates you havent installed please send help

[@Brahvim]

Absolutely not the case...?! Immediate edit: Please offer me some examples.

[@walec51]

As does any language that has a compiler. AOT or JIT like Java and C#. In JIT you have the downside in larger startup times. But thanks to this it can optimize the compiled code by constantly analyzing the way it is executed. This is much better for long running server apps.

[@gerjaison]

Does it matter whether some have a formal computer science education? Just for the record i have engineering background and i found being a programmer and a computer scientist are 2 different job descriptions.

[@nukesforce]

Coding a complex business application in assembly? - priceless

[@meghanachauhan9380]

It's actually not as hard as most people think. Most computer solutions are too simplistic

[@virajpotdar8104]

@Felipe Gomes Yep🤣

[@felipegomes6312]

Super Mario World was written in assembly and only had 16 thousand lines of code. If it was written in java it'd probably have 84 thousand lines plus 750 classes and classes inside classes, and methods from interfaces declared in subclasses inside classes, etc.

[@BigBobsh2o]

What I like about Java is that it's cross platform and fairly easy to learn. There are so many frameworks for languages like C++ (VC++, QT, GTK) that I really appreciate how everything is the same for Java no matter what platform you are writing for. There are plenty of great desktop apps like FrostWire, Eclipse, etc that are written in Java.

[@friedrichmyers]

Write once, debug everywhere.

[@terabit.]

@@friedrichmyers you're uneducated !

[@Fenrirsulfre]

Ok, Java is horrible. Not being rhetorical but really want some guidance here. What do you recommend then that runs fast, is general purpose and doesnt cost an arm when using on servers like C# on IIS?

[@groberti]

+Fenrirsulfre Java is not horrible, you just lack the experience to see its true use. It is an amazing general purpose language. if you want something cheap and easy to learn just use PHP, it is a shitty language but it will do the job.

[@OverG88]

Haha...I must admit thats partialy truth. Some, just some systems run on Cobol, yes. When I've spoken with one of database admins in local bank in my town, he said that every bank and insurance company in our town runs on Java technologies. He also got few propositions from German companies, since acording to him, demand for Java devs in Germany is tremendous.

[@affvaf5350]

U know, i'm a java (and other languages) prog. I'm just eating some popcorn and enjoying the comments. THE FLAMES ARE EVERYWHERE :)

[@AllThatInterestingStuff]

They Hate Us Cuz They Ain't Us :D

[@solukrebut]

Java is in a sense like Windows. It has a lot of things to make it easy to work with. But once you start trying to do anything fancy, the same things actually bog you down and you have to find solutions to go around them.

[@Brahvim]

As somebody who is... _actually_ writing a game engine in Java, this is actually very true! I like the language and everything about it, but it just isn't enough sometimes.

[@BradenBest]

Right! Java isn't for low-level details because it is specifically a High-Level Language. It is meant to abstract entirely from the CPU by running on an interpreter (the JVM) that is compiled instead. Port the JVM, and you port all of Java. Because of this abstraction, though, instructions in Java are slightly slower than direct machine language, and that penalty adds up to unbelievable heights when using it for complex operations like running a Kernel/Operating System, or Ray Tracing.

[@vycma2971]

i was very sad to see that because this guys was hero of mine it's really tough

[@masrokstheworldandsoul6942]

Thank you! You made me feel better about my decision to start with Java and then switch to C++ or C# (probably C++). I see quite a lot of people hating on it and I don't know if it is the better choice to learn first. Although even though C++ may be more powerful then Java I have been told that java is a lot more user-friendly for beginners (me) which got my hopes up. Java FTW!

[@masrokstheworldandsoul6942]

@MR MEME 6 years a bit too late my friend haha but thanks anyway. I still went with Java as my first language but ever since I started university I've used java, c++, php, javascript and I did do a bit of assembly but that was for programming a micro controller and it wasn't anything too in depth plus I've forgotten most of it lel. I understand now that picking a specific programming language and sticking with it is dumb though, in reality you use what you need for the job that you're doing. Thanks again for you input though, assembly has intrigued me and i've wanted to delve into it in my free time but I've been so busy lately, and their are a lot of other languages and tools i wish to learn first.

[@masrokstheworldandsoul6942]

@MR MEME Oh i see haha. Tbf, when I did it at uni I did struggle with it but the difficulty is half the fun (perhaps not for a first language). If you think assembly is bad though you should check out a language called Brainfuck, it has only 8 commands total. You'll soon understand why it got its name

[@masrokstheworldandsoul6942]

@MR MEME Oh, i didn't mean to say assembly was bad, it's still used even today I believe for the creation of certain operating systems. Plus, like you said since it's low level it's a lot closer to how a computer thinks compare to the standard high level languages (especially OOP). It's just the only interest I'd have in assembly is recreational because it's not really usable (or extremely difficult) for what I want to do.

[@BryonLape]

When did he talk about Java?

[@starcalibre]

0:45

[@user-zhangdaifu]

哪位可以翻译一下啊，谢谢

[@shipcommanderlol6577]

I would love to see Linus vs Notch as in C vs Java debate.

[@michaelbruce4987]

I am learning OO with SOLID principals and TDD with Java right now. I am having a good time. I am sure I will learn many languages later. Right now though, Java is really cool.

[@asuasuasu]

+Michael Bruce (CodeAmend) haha

[@michaelbruce4987]

But.. I just switched completely to Python. For the last few months have been the most enjoyable programming experiences I have had so far. Python!

[@MaxterTheTurtle]

+Michael Bruce (CodeAmend) I think Java gets more hideous the more you know about the language. Also if you're learning it in university, I've found they tend to go overboard with OO. Also, every design pattern has it's uses but also has drawbacks. There's a good balance especially when performance is considered.

[@theshermantanker7043]

@@MaxterTheTurtle Java stays the same, really. In fact because of how strict it is errors can be much less painful to fix

[@MaxterTheTurtle]

​@@theshermantanker7043 There are aspects of Java that make it a good language. I prefer Java's statically typed variables over Python's dynamically typed variables. Having something fail at compile time is much better than having something fail at runtime IMO. While my previous comment was railing against OOP, I would rather work with Java classes/interfaces than C++ classes/pure-virtual classes. I somewhat disagree with Java being more strict with errors. Most modern languages are pretty comparable. I think that I favor how Rust/Go handle errors compared to C++/Java. I've programmed a lot in C since I wrote that comment. I would argue that C is one of the most stable languages out there. Programs link against symbols within libraries that are decades old.

[@PaoloMaresca]

Sometimes it's funny to listen Torvalds talking about a bunch of stuff! He's so proud of him, he's so convinced abut himself and his thoughts that's awesome to listen from him!

[@nando_br]

And it is.

[@masrokstheworldandsoul6942]

Although I have been told by people on youtube videos that it truly dosen't matter what language you start off with, as long as you are good with it and like it. I do want to start learning an object-oriented language now though.

[@BumboLooks]

That's a horrible idea.

[@Anim4000]

You mean Javascript? I didn't see any Java asking permission on Facebook, Twitter even Google it self, if in server side, I don't know...

[@wendellbalagot7660]

This linus guy seems capable, i think he can build his own kernel.

[@agilasadi5044]

I think java was pretty good for it's time. Especially being able to build multi tenant applications so easy is pretty good. Java is being outperformed by a lot of other languages in current ecosystem, but back than it was one of the best if not the best solution for most of it's capabilities.

[@iceron1720]

Java is actually widely used today still.

[@CoreDump451]

@@iceron1720 I'd argue it's become way better than it ever was.

[@VperVendetta1992]

Wow! I've always thought Java was a horrible language, but seeing the Linus itself say it gives me great peace of mind.

[@cmaliaga]

Ok, now we understand each other :)

[@igorvasiljevic758]

I've spent most of my time learning Java and just recently I got a job as a C# dev and I only have like 2 months of experience with C#. And I ain't ever going back!

[@RainerLuizFonseca]

4 years later, what language are you using today sir? C# is pretty much dead

[@casio007]

@@RainerLuizFonseca definitely not dead

[@SumoCumLoudly]

@flying pandaz what is an ArrayList, is it an array of lists, a list of arrays? how could they get such basic naming so wrong

[@thiruvetti]

@@RainerLuizFonseca LOL. "C# is pretty dead" - Dream on. Its popularity is growing everyday.

[@RainerLuizFonseca]

@@thiruvetti yeah, from 6% market share in 2019 to 5% in 2020 lol

[@mickstarify]

Well i was introduced to OOP through Java. Also I've been doing alot with Android so i guess its grown on me.

[@OverG88]

I'm specialized for business information systems. Knowlege of programming is crucial. And I also finnished high school for electrical engineering. So I'm very familiar with electronics and microprocessor architechture. :)

[@TazG2000]

What you mean is *virtual machines* are the best trade-off. JVM is a popular VM, but there are several others, as well as other languages that can be compiled to the JVM, and ones that have direct to-binary compilers with cross-platform support. So, compatibility and performance is by no means sufficient grounds to choose Java (the language), somewhat sufficient grounds to to choose JVM, and somewhat sufficient grounds to choose VMs in general. All of these choices are still highly subjective.

[@mullergyula4174]

I read a lot of comments, but could not find out why java is such a bad language. It has its place in the business world. It runs really fast, needs a bit more memory, portable. My biggest problem with java that it is used in areas where it should not be used, development just takes too much time. Java related technologies change far too often so you have to learn a new framework for each project. These things have nothing to do with the language itself. In the '90s we used some rapid application development frameworks like Magic, Orcle Forms for faster development. Most of the time development speed is much more important than running speed, you just tune the critical bits.

[@fxlltxtsearch]

A bit more memory? 😂😂

[@Brahvim]

@@fxlltxtsearch A JVM restricted to just `2049` KB of heap usage can actually run the, ...what you'd call, "bloated", hello-world program. You can also store and print an array of `2047` 64-bit integers (`long`s) along with it, since the JVM has other spaces for storage. Java *has* fast allocations and several "actually smart about their job" garbage collection engines. Those are possible only thanks to all the extra memory you're giving away! Also, note: *Memory*, and NOT CPU usage. It is true that memory management is not simple, but when all the work is already being done for us, ...we should act _okay_ with the cost we have to pay.

[@jameskeim5041]

Java is sooooo horrible that Microsoft decided to copy it, and called it C Sharp.

[@steveski74]

I don't mind the language itself, but it's way to involved trying to deploy anything with the thing. Ever tried making a minor config change in a .ear file for WebSphere? You have to recompile the thing which takes forever, plus the convoluted deployment process.

[@TheXenoEnder]

Many Win32 APIs are no longer supported in Win7/8. I don't find this to be any more forward thinking than using an additional layer of abstraction to insulate you from OS change. Also, I have had my fair share of versioning issues with Java, but I have not had any issues with installing versions of .NET (though I imagine somebody must have). Then again, I do read the directions

[@HGeneAnthony]

Java was designed to be a language that was write once, run anywhere. The syntax was designed to appeal to C++ programmers but also to fix some weakspots in the language. In concept it was a good idea. I don't believe when it was released there were other languages designed with this goal. Once strength I have seen from Java IDEs is fantastic refactoring support. No other language seems to compare. It also seems well designed for big projects.

[@honkhonk8009]

Yeah except fastforward to today, and litterally fucking everything runs linux lmfao. So realistically, wtf are you gonna do with Java even? For what conceivable reason would you be running apple/windows for anything but the desktop?

[@ikhlasulkamal5245]

Dude, that refactoring support was implemented because it was horrible to refactor Java. Just try it on normal text editor and compare it with other languages

[@smit17xp]

he likes rust btw

[@terabit.]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@jnb257]

I agree with you but C++ templates have one thing superior than Java, imho. C++'s implementation of templates allow you to use templates with "primitive" types like int, char, etc. where you can only use reference types in Java Generics. This can cause a performance hit as primitive types are much faster than their boxed reference counterparts.

[@yusufasad]

What's funny is that a Linux udemy ad played before this video

[@rydohg]

I got a unskippable 1:20 long ad on this video. FML

[@MarvinBlum]

Reload page.

[@rydohg]

Marvin Blum YT Android app

[@Brickkzz]

Ryan, next time leave the video (back button) and then get back to it. Advert should be gone.

[@JesseMaurais]

From my first experience with Java I had decided that making a purely object-oriented language was a bad move. That was almost 15 years ago and I haven't changed my mind. There's nothing that I could write in Java that I wouldn't rather do in Python or C++ depending on the context of the problem to be solved.

[@Pauli650]

I’m not sure it matters -- I have worked with some great programmers that are not formally qualified and some horrible ones too --- but read the guys response....i just was curious to see if perhaps he did have some kind formal education and still had a response like that.

[@0ctober31st]

Garbage collection has to do with memory management and freeing memory that is no longer in use. I am sure you can extend the argument that a garbage collector help may prevent e.g. buffer overflows by providing automated memory management, however that is neither here nor there. The reason I mentioned games developed in C++ is that many of them tend to use a ton of memory, memory that is not managed by a built in garbage collector.

[@sheev4958]

I agree with him, the same way i think Linux experience on desktops are painful

[@xCwieCHRISx]

yea just use linux on your smartphone trolololol

[@sheev4958]

@@xCwieCHRISx i use iPhones, and Apple systems are also UNIX but not Linux, they're all based on BSDs. get some research.

[@kvin9210]

@@xCwieCHRISx Android is NOT Linux ffs

[@EddieKMusic]

Cool, I myself am developing few games for android now :) Great platform :)

[@potato9832]

Click bait. He's not dissing the language at all. He's dissing the lawsuit.

[@ComputerWarrior]

Do you have much to do with the systems running when you use an ATM machine? I'd imagine that's more engineer and programming field rather than economist...