That Time Detroit Almost Expanded Transit-And How It Still Could

[@TooMuchShantae69]

As a SE Michigan resident I hope the ballot for 2024 will include something for transit for people to vote on

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

Agreed. That seems like the best time to try to move something forward.

[@deanonesense]

I think that adding metro-like service to the section of the Wolverine line owned by MDOT (Dearborn to Kalamazoo) is low hanging fruit. There is a bunch of large employers (factories, warehouses, hospitals), schools, downtowns, apartment complexes, trailer parks (which for single level housing is pretty dense), recreational nature areas, and independent living retirement communities on or very near that line. Adding capacity for both passenger and freight to that corridor, electrifying and grade separating and utilizing ATC where possible would be major. There are a number of businesses near that line also that I think would like to make use of freight rail and if that can reduce the number of trucks on the road you can then take lanes for bikes, pedestrians and buses. Other low hanging fruit is just signal prioritization.

[@TriegaDN]

Same, I was happy to vote for the 2016 proposal which sadly failed! 2022 was huge especially where opt out was remove, but I hope we can get a higher millage on future ballots. I live in the suburbs of Detroit and it's just so poorly served, but sadly so many people believe that no one would use public transit here and it would be a waste of money. Young people seem increasingly interested in public transit though, I think something huge can happen if we're vocal about it

[@haroldleese1931]

A Sales Tax will likely be on the ballot this year or in 2026. This is NEW money that replaces federal and state fuel tax funds. Vote YES or NO. Without a ballot language change, the ten percent fuel tax for existing mass transit will disappear and so will federal transit funds. All must be in writing as per USA Federal Law at the voting booth in writing. Is Local funds enough ? NO. Thus the best choice is NO for Detroit voters, until lost funds are fully restored in writing.

[@Delta_NWAB747fan]

@@TriegaDN We do have SMART Buses up here which go down to Detroit and can link up to Detroit’s bus network and therefore the people mover downtown and etc. It is always empty and the only time I see it busy is on Woodward Ave closer to where DDOT buses are in Ferndale. If we want future projects to succeed, start riding those buses more.

[@toegunn4905]

I live in Phoenix, everyone loves our lightrail system that connects our suburbs to urban centers. When I want to go downtown for the night, I can save $40 on ubers by riding the rail, it takes us from the suburbs to sporting events, bars, casinos, and back safely. Public transportation isn't about helping people without cars exclusively, it's about opening up downtown culture to the suburbs, saving people money on parking and traffic. Detroit needs to downsize many roads, cut back on maintenance fees and have them appropriately sized for residential areas. Cars don't disappear, I owned a car, lived in the suburbs and rode the lightrail downtown to work daily. I got to read, nap and skip sitting and stewing in traffic. I always got to work on time. Transit is for everybody.

[@tonywalters7298]

Hopefully detroit can improve its transit in the future with a more supportive political environment. The detroit area has a lot of wide roadway corridors that could be redesigned to accommodate transit more efficiently.

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

I think there's real hope right now from advocates like Megan!

[@tonywalters7298]

@@HeartlandUrbanist One thing I would like to see happen is the toledo-detroit rail link, especially since flights out of Toledo Express Airport are limited, and Detroit Metro offers more options.

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

It's part Amtrak's ConnectsUS plan!

[@schwenda3727]

Redesign?! I greatly reckon that Southern Michigan’s standard arterial road layout could work very accordingly for either BRT or LRT; probably without taking a single lane away from suburban roads (to which will immediately piss off every suburbanite). Probably to the point where the only thing to do to the roads themselves is: >ANY deferred maintenance (to which Southern Michigan is notorious for) >ADA compliance >Requiring “Michigan Left” traffic to stop BEFORE they make a Uturn if/when a train/bus is coming & the transitway/station & signal infrastructure instead of… whatever the hell IndyGo’s BRT system WAS REQUIRED TO DO to various streets.

[@deanonesense]

Shit, Detroit has residential streets with medians that might be big enough to put a regulation sized football field.

[@majy1735]

Hello! This is really an interesting video. I (European) visited Detroit quite recently and was happy to see this great city, with so much beautiful architecture (ntw, I'm not interested in the usual clichés about "the decline of Detroit" etc., it's not at all my view of the city). I arrived by train at the Amtrak station from Chicago and took the Q Line to downtown, as I was absolutely set on having a tramcar ride in an American city. It was fine, honestly. For the rest, I traveled through the city (not just downtown) by bike (I rented one) and bus. Unfortunately, public transport is not very good in Detroit and some bus drivers I came across were even pretty rude but on the whole it was better than what I expected from a US city, especially from "the city of automobile". I hope Detroit will keep bouncing back, as it's improving a lot. I was impressed with the restorations of countless buildings (not just donwtown) and even new developments.

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

I’m so happy to hear you had a mostly good experience in Detroit. I’ve always enjoyed my trips up there. Here’s hoping they are able to increase transit investment soon!

[@FlyingOverTr0ut]

Channels like yours are fundamental to ballots like the failed Detroit one to succeed in the future. Videos like this help get popular awareness and support for good transit and urbanism, which is crucial for having one proposals for new transit plans are introduced so that a car of support is there, ready to be activated. Keep it up! Much support from LA.

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

Thank you! That is very much what I’m hoping for by creating these videos.

[@georgekarnezis4311]

Wow she was a rock star of a guest

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

Right?!

[@torikicklighter1191]

Along with local transit, please consider an Amtrak route southerly from Detroit-Toledo-Dayton/Cincy-Lexington-Knoxville to Atlanta!!! We here I. The Midwest area do not have a direct route from Midwest to Atlanta/southeast region!

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

How wonderful would this be!!

[@Zoey47969]

As a Detroit resident the DUR really feels like a low blow. I remember learning about it last year and realizing where I used to live was connected to Detroit by rail. I'm happy to have found your channel. I enjoyed your video and appreciate you spreading the message. I bike to work every day and take the bus regularly whenever I can't take my bike. Happy to fight with you. Cheers!

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

Thanks for watching!

[@NW255]

as a conservative I’d vote yes 100% on this bill. I’ve been dreaming of this since I was a preteen about having better connections in what I think is one of the greatest cities in the country and having a LRT connecting DTW to Ann Arbor and UofM? Easy yes for me. If this gets on a ballot I WILL be voting yes especially for only 8$ a month

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

🙌🙌🙌

[@Knightmessenger]

I did vote yes on the 2016 ballot initiative. Even today people ask why the QLine doesn't have certain features or whatever happened to that commuter rail between Ann Arbor and Detroit. Well, it was all included in that transit millage. Seems like a lot of people didn't realize what it would have done. I mean it is hard to describe the advantages of bus rapid transit over regular buses without someone actually experiencing it. And certain upgrades were brought forward afterward like the FAST Bus corridors, Ann Arbor to Det express bus, plus the QLine had yet to open in 2016. Had those been in place before, it might have been easier to convince voters how those now existing things would be improved.

[@jdmrc93]

As much as I hate to say it, we need to go big or go home. Subways, regional rail, re-doing the people mover from scratch... Busses won't fix it. Detroit will NEVER have a full comeback without separated rail transit. Detroit could be the next Chicago or even the NYC of the future. It's IDEAL, especially in our global warming future. But again, MASSIVE investments must be made in transit.

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

My hope is that there’s opportunity to start smaller, build some transit culture, some density, some corridors that are proof of concept and then invest more over time. For example, I think globally its pretty common to replace the highest ridership bus lines with rail-based transit.

[@TheOnyxGemini]

Bismarck ND local transit company is call "bis-man transit", and run 6 bus routes in and around the city. it has an "2018 transit development plan", and a "2022 coordinated public transit human service plan". as for the quality, frequency, and how easily you can get around Bismarck without a car I don't know.

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

Haha, fascinating. I don't consider ND to be Midwest (though the name Heartland Urbanist is in intended to give me some flexibility to cover the Plains states or even some Midwest adjacent places like Kentucky, Pittsburgh, etc). Are you based in Bismarck?

[@TheOnyxGemini]

@@HeartlandUrbanist I'm not I'm just interested in how cites no one talks about like(Lincoln NE,or New Bedford MA) handle there housing, public transit,& how easy it is to live in them without a car.

[@trapmuzik6708]

They should see if the Canadian side is interested in joining the system

[@pauly5418]

Windsor-Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec City is the busiest rail corridor in Canada. With a good connection between Detroit and Windsor that would be more reason for Amtrak to run between Detroit and Chicago.

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

Amtrak is planning a new connection as part of their ConnectsUS plan. It would be really awesome. But if you're saying they could invite the Canadian side to be part of the transit system - there is apparently already bus service across the border run by the Canadian side!

[@pauly5418]

@@HeartlandUrbanist I tried to read up a bit about Amtrak's ConnectsUS plan for Chicago-Detroit-Toronto. I don't think they have anything worked out just yet, but I think it could be similar service to what Amtrak already does for their NY-Montreal, NY-Toronto, Seattle-Vancouver services. Amtrak runs trains to these Canadian cities, but when the train gets across the border a crew for VIA Rail - the Canadian equivalent of Amtrak - will take over the train as per Canadian regulations. Detroit to Toronto is a longer distance than these other Amtrak services through Canada. I don't know if they want to do something similar or transfer passengers over to a VIA rail train as they already serve that portion of the route to Toronto. Passengers already have to get off with their luggage at the border anyway to get through customs. Thankfully, no bus transfer is needed.

[@Knightmessenger]

​@@pauly5418Amtrak does run between Detroit and Chicago. Amtrak does not run between Detroit and Lansing, or Detroit and Grand Rapids.

[@pilsudski36]

In 1950 or so, there was a plan to build rapid trasit lines in the medians of Detroit Freeways, Chicago Style. The rapid transit lines were to be fed by a network of Streetcars, buses, and trolley buses. The big three auto makers didn't like the idea of rail transit in the Motor City. When the freeways were built, their medians were wide enough for two tracks, but too narrow for stations. You can find this plan in documents of SEMCOG (Southeatern Michigan Council of Governments).

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

So frustrating.

[@withoutlimits16]

When not wfh, i commute 2-3 x per week. Traffic in detroit/AA/Dearborn area is horrific, and getting worse. I see maybe 2-3 accidents every couple weeks or so, it's nuts. The heart of this problem can be solved with commuter rail from AA to Detroit imo. Lots of ways to do it, but if we can get it passed in 2024, it'll be huge. I have a feeling once people in the area learn to rely on something like that after being introduced to it, we'll make major progress on this issue across the region

[@pauly5418]

We need to change the view, as some people see it, that transit is a charity case, and argue that investment in transit is an economic investment and that everyone benefits. Investment in public transportation results in greater economic activity and development. Companies will locate and developers will build where there is transit infrastructure. This in turn brings greater tax revenue to the city and region. This may be the best argument for transit with conservatives.

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

Yes, exactly. People who never use transit benefit for the economic development and for a more efficient transportation system (meaning people who do choose to drive should experience less traffic).

[@Knightmessenger]

A better argument for conservatives is that car centered development drains taxpayer money, produces less in property taxes and basically is just economically inefficient in every way. The group Strongtowns has a lot of data that backs this up, and explains that suburban design leads to a boom and bust cycle. You think a mostly empty bus is bad? Well, what about a 4 lane freeway (you have to patch every 3 years) that is overcrowded during rush hour, but sparsely used other times?

[@NW255]

right off the bat I know the answer. No. 😂 but I work in the transportation industry and there are plans to put in a light rail system at metro airport to connect up to a regional LRT system

[@78Mathius]

Good video again

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

Thank you!

[@ksdedicated]

Having a slower moving streetcare people can easilly hop on or off is a good thing, it really promotes walkibility and vibrancy. It just shouldn`t be the only mode, rather part of a multi-modal system.

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

That’s a fair point - though I don’t think there’s much of a case for transit vehicles stuck in traffic or not being able to pass poorly parked cars. And you should probably add the slow streetcar after you build functional rapid transit not the other way around.

[@jonathanstensberg]

QLine is so depressing precisely because of the lost potential. Here you have philanthropic donations of hundreds of millions of dollars to build a desperately needed service that the city and state definitely can’t build on its own, and it gets permanently weighted down by one foolish design decision. And since that one mistake causes perpetually underwhelming performance, the reputation for all of transit takes a hit, hampering efforts for future transit investments.

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

💔

[@electric7487]

On the plus side, extending the Q Line to Pontiac and keeping it centre-running would allow for a (nearly) car-free downtown Birmingham. A spur can be run through Old Woodward and it would help reduce car traffic through downtown Birmingham by a ton, which is great since that place gets congested very quickly.

[@Knightmessenger]

Before the service restarted after covid, the southbound section in front of Little Ceasars Arena was made a transit only lane. It has helped and I think doing this for more parts would resolve the issues.

[@stewlittle13]

Why not extend the People Mover up & down the radial avenues?

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

The people mover is sadly expensive to run and maintain (multiple times as much per rider as a bus or light rail from what I’ve read). I don’t think the city will ever expand it.

[@edwardmiessner6502]

@@HeartlandUrbanist Which is sad because Vancouver's Skytrain is the same sort of people mover but they built it as a regional el/subway system. When it's that extensive it's no longer a people mover but a light metro. Detroit could certainly build the first leg out to the Airport; they already have an identical people mover inside Terminal A and yes, people use it!

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

@@edwardmiessner6502 I wonder why Detroit’s system is so expensive to operate. Maybe part of the problem is that it’s so small there’s no economies of scale.

[@stewlittle13]

@@HeartlandUrbanist Metro Detroit’s population & economy is more than strong enough to support a train. The problem is that due to the lack of rail transit coverage beyond Downtown, the ridership is nowhere near as high as it could be. If there were lines going to Southfield, Royal Oak, Dearborn, Metro Airport, Downriver, Grosse Pointe, Hamtramck, & Warren, then we could really see something great here.

[@onemattyone3062]

I got tired of waiting for transit and moved from Detroit to Washington.

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

That would be a huge transit upgrade. Of course, lots of Detroiters don’t have that option - so I’m grateful to people like Megan Owens for staying in the fight.

[@edwardmiessner6502]

I heard that the people mover was supposed to be the starter line for an areawide light metro system much like Vancouver's Skytrain. That would have benefited Detroit so much but from what I heard, the Reagan administration pulled the funding for the extensions. It would've been great; there's already an indoor "skytrain" inside Detroit Metro Airport Terminal A which I used during a stop between flights from New Orleans to Boston. Seriously I don't know if USAmericans want transit even on the scale Canadians do. So many transit systems are facing a fiscal cliff and we may see the cessation of services even in cities with subways (Boston I'm looking at you). Most would be fine with it until they literally can't drive anymore due to either the mother of all gridlocks or gasoline running out and not being resupplied. At that point, we're fracked.

[@Mopey024]

I wouldnt call Whitmer "pro transit" but many members of the legislature certainly are

[@MrFullService]

Elevated trains are pretty horrible. Subways are dark, cold, gross. Really, the easiest and cheapest is what Detroit always had, the surface streetcars. There were once even lines running through the narrow streets of the downtown (eg. Griswold). Questionable if those would be needed right away considering the small population/activity of the city compared to back in the heyday. Now, streetcar lines extending down Woodward Avenue, at least to six mile road, facilitating the Palmer Park area, colleges, and other residential areas there, especially west side, would be great. By contrast, Palmer Woods has only free standing huge houses. Presumably those folks have cars...and $$! Another streetcar line should go down Michigan Avenue in order to facilitate Corktown, Michigan Central, etc.. Yet another line should be established down East Jefferson Avenue. At first, this line could extend as far as the Jeffersonian apartments/Indian Village, or just a bit beyond. Possible also, in order to encourage use of casinos on the west side, and Eastern Market on the east side...for both locals and visitors/tourists, two short lines, one down Grand River Ave. and one down Gratiot Ave. All lines mentioned easily could be extended as necessary. A few others could be added as necessary, such as a line down (West) Grand Boulevard... Now, considering that Detroit once had like 500 miles of track, going everywhere, is this plan too terribly ambitious? Seems this would be about the minimum to start. Seems the existing stretch of 3.3 miles down Woodward can be sufficiently tooled if necessary, or just live with it as is for the time being. Question: would a more extensive system make use of overhead cables, as in the old days? *BTW, there also once existed overhead cable run buses (not on tracks) in Detroit. These were aborted five years after the streetcars, in 1961.

[@lelandunruh7896]

Detroit's great and good have shown that they're utterly incapable of managing the city well in the long term. Why should anyone take seriously "trust us this time--this hugely expensive thing will work great"? (If you have a serious good-faith answer to this I'd genuinely like to hear it.)

[@schwenda3727]

Doesn’t GRAND RAPIDS… A MUCH SMALLER CITY/REGION… have better overall transit than ALL of Detroit?! Particularly down to their local bus? That alone would be profound if that perception is true… Didn’t they build two BRT lines in around 10 years when all Detroit has built since the People Mover was that short streetcar?

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

I’ll have to look into this. Could be a good video.

[@secretagentcat]

light rail.....................

[@joeblow123]

oh yea, can't wait to be in a box with detroit's fine citizens !

[@Ecumenomachy]

I live in Royal Oak just north of Detroit. It’s one of only 3 real cities in the metro area (along with Birmingham and to a lesser degree, Ferndale). The rest of the area is endless single family houses. No one lives where they work because all offices are located in the most hideously mundane suburbs. The traffic here is awful. The only solution is to build compelling condos, apartments, and row houses in the urban areas and then bulldoze most of the single family houses and strip malls. And we all know that will never happen. There will never be good transit in a metro area of endless, mundane box houses built of toothpicks.

[@carljacobs1260]

This is all about figuring out how to get taxpayers in Oakland and Macomb counties to pay for operating costs in Detroit. That city burned its tax base to the ground. It bankrupted itself with corruption and unfunded pensions. Now it wants to tax property owners in other counties. How about this plan? If a county contributes 40% of RTA funding it gets 40% of the say in how that money is spent. If a county contributes 2% of the funding, it gets 2% of the say in how the money is spent. That would go a long way toward alleviating suburban fears that this is just a scheme of "Let's you and me tax him". And let's be honest. A lot of owners in Oakland county would have paid much more than $8 a month for a service they would never use. They were included in the plan simply to get their high-value property on the tax roll. See previous paragraph.

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

A few thoughts. First, the plan included a lot of commuter oriented transit (taking people into the city from the suburbs) so I don't think it's fair to characterize this as the city asking the suburbs to subsidize service that is for city residents. Second, the plan would have improved the overall transportation system in the region, which would have meant less traffic for people who drive in the region (which is basically everyone in Macomb and Oakland). Third, the plan would have come with serious economic development benefits - helping the economy, raising property values, etc. That benefit would have been felt by people who would never have used the system. Finally, I think it's worth thinking about the fairness of the current system. When people in Macomb or Oakland counties drive into Detroit for their commute, to go to a game, or for whatever other reason, they are putting a burden on the city for road maintenance, creating air and noise pollution that impacts city residents, and causing congestion that results in city transit riders getting stuck in traffic. In other words, the status quo is outer county suburbanites contributing nothing (at least through property taxes which fund transit in Michigan) but costing the city and its residents very directly. So maybe consider that this plan would have begun to address an existing imbalance - while still benefiting the suburbs significantly. It would have been win win.

[@stewlittle13]

We need an train line from Detroit to Lansing & Grand Rapids.

[@honolulublues5548]

​@@HeartlandUrbanist I agree with everything you say except for your last paragraph. You make it sound like Detroit gains nothing from commuters or when people visit the city. People who work in Detroit pay income tax to the city. It is lower than a resident, but they are still contributing to the city. People who go into the city for a game, catch a show, or to eat also pay entertainment or hospitality tax to the city. These taxes are not going to go away just because of mass transit. So, that imbalance is not as wide as you are making it out to be. I'm all for mass transit. It is one of the things I've told my friends and coworkers we needed in Detroit to get back on track - pun not intended. However, I can see the reluctance of other counties to buy into a system if it is managed like Detroit was the last, well, 50 years. I don't live in Detroit anymore, so I don't know who makes up the RTA or how people get positions on it's board. I can only assume it is made up of people from all the counties involved. It is that board's responsibility to push for the benefits of a new system. BTW, people who use Chicago as a model don't know how difficult they have getting funding. And Chicago hasn't turned the whole system over to their RTA, either. The EL in Chicago is not operated by the RTA, it is run by the CTA. Every couple of years they are passing more taxes to cover costs of the RTA and ticket prices are really ramping up for the METRA because less people are taking the train now.

[@Knightmessenger]

One idea that has been put forth is to allow the counties that support transit to move forward and let the other(s) wait it out. The 2016 proposal passed in Wayne and Washtenaw counties, it lost close in Oakland County. Macomb County was really the only part that voted overwhelmingly against it. But unless legislation changes, they couldn't put the ballot proposal again for just Washtenaw, Wayne and Oakland Counties. Second, it needs to be stressed that as much wealthier as the suburbs might seem (especially around Detroit), it is the urban areas that actually subsidize suburbia. There's a great video that explains this called "suburbia is subsidized, here's the math."

[@haroldleese1931]

The lack of Local Funds is NOT the reason that Detroit has little public transit. The problem is the Very Extreme HIGH per passenger cost. More Local money will only make the problem worse. Megan???? Why the high cost? Why does the TRU not increase ridership to lower costs? This is not hard to do. Imagine if we all just cared enough to get out of our cars and walk to the bus stop? We could raise Millions. Not much but as we both know, quality mass transit is not cheap.

[@HeartlandUrbanist]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Detroit's transit receives far less funding than other similarly sized cities. And for all transit, fares are a relatively small percentage of revenue - so getting more ridership wouldn't do much for that funding. What's more, local advocacy orgs like TRU can't increase ridership-people have to choose to ride because the service is frequent, convenient, and reliable. Right now, it doesn't live up to that - which is why they need more funding.