The 2017 Failure Workshop

In this 2017 workshop, three game developers, Adriaan de Jongh, Michael Molinari and Tim Rogers candidly discuss recent failures in their careers, what went wrong, and what could have gone differently, to help viewers learn from their lesson and take a different path.
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[@yukimishima7854]

As someone who just got into Tim Rogers from his youtube Action Button reviews (specifically the Tokimeki Memorial one), I've now made it my mission to go back and watch every piece of content he's ever taken part in producing, and I'm not regretting it.

[@TheStupidrule]

KZbin's algorithm is being surprisingly helpful for once. The more Tim I watch, the more Tim I get recommended; even on channels I'd never heard of before.

[@pakhyeoncheol]

Same hahaha. Some of these mean spirited comments about him as a game developer are pretty surprising considering how good he is as an entertainer and explainer, and with how much he knows about games.

[@yokaicustoms]

I am on the same journey right now. 🤝 The more I read and watch the more engrossed I become. But there is so much content! 😩😅

[@MrWarners14]

The Citystream Twitch situation may have been a mess but I admire how much the developers cared about the players. Really sweet at the end for their game.

[@arjunsatheesh7609]

The way the dev actually read out Citystream "extreme" with a voice modulation shows that care. He is talking about a failed game in a 'developer' conference. Preaching to the choir, so to speak and still goes that extra mile. (6:40).

[@yrussq]

@@arjunsatheesh7609 It's a classical example where devs have ideas but completely ignored checking if the ideas were contributing to fun. Plus the presentation were a mess, too many words, to many details and a little info on the actual slides.

[@obtusemooose]

​@@yrussqi disagree. 3 years late but i thibk that the real problem was not finding out how to make money with their game. i thought his presentation showed the downfall very well

[@maggitPL]

The Videoball guy may be a failed game developer but he's a brilliant comedian.

[@shukterhousejive]

Being funny is the only thing Tim hasn't fucked over the years, even if the comedy isn't always intentional

[@Manas-co8wl]

I know, the real failure is that this took that much time to make. Honestly it looks like a minigame...

[@108x]

me: hey guys . . . lol you: EVEN IF THE COMEDY ISN'T ALWAYS INTENTIONAL!!! [fills diaper]

[@108x]

wait that was supposed to be a comment directly to the guy who said "even if the comedy isn't always intentional" ok, sorry . . . i'm going to bed

[@ponchopeligroso]

tim that was six months ago

[@Hwyadylaw]

"Failure Workshop" is a great name. "I'm going to the failure workshop to talk to people like me "

[@MaxDSquires]

Holy hell that videoball guy gave a hilarious talk

[@2Cerealbox]

Yeah, but also not a terribly informative one.

[@benjoe1993]

He had some information there. Namely "make what you want but be aware that it might not be what the customers want, also don't sign a contract with a publisher that you can't deliver because it may lead to sticky situations, like the publisher closing down and leaving you in the dirt, also marketing and the timing of the marketing/going live is key, aaaaaand, don't put your phone number on a slide, also ... #truckheck, k bye". Takeaway from this talk: if you want to earn money then make a game FOR the audience; do your market research in time; sign with a stable, marketing focused (not development focused) publisher; or if not signing with a publisher then do your own marketing 24/7 and use the leftover time for development; and don't put your phone number on a slide. Also #truckheck...k bye.

[@kevinfredericks2335]

you may enjoy Tim's blog actionbutton.net, he's been doing some absurdly tangential musings on video games for years

[@BdR76]

Totally agree, great stage presence and funny jokes too @50:22 he could try gigs as a game conference presentor or tv show host or something.

[@castirondude]

He lost me though at the part where wanted to trade his crown vic for a civic.

[@GattlingCombo]

You can't make esports happen, it just happens. Tim makes a very good point. There are waaaay to many developers right now (any dev that makes a freakin multiplayer game) that try to shoe horn an esports culture into their game. I really wish more devs would just focus on making their game awesome first and foremost.

[@MrMarowak]

Finally a workshop for me

[@SaadGhadir]

lol

[@Shadowonshadows]

Major shouts out to Adrien for laying bare not only the finances of Game Oven's finances, but also the interpersonal project struggle. Those piracy graphs broke my heart.

[@pniner]

Mr. Rogers forgot to mention that Videoball's online at launch was... offline. It took at least a week and a half for a patch to fix it, at which point everyone had given up. It was a tragic. Mr. Rogers accurately identified the shortcomings besides that. I'll always look at Videoball as one of the greatest tragedies of that generation. With good promotion and, yes, a PlayStation Plus launch, it could have soared. I hope he gets a chance for a remake or sequel. Remember, no one remembers Speedball. Everyone remembers Speedball 2.

[@stumbling]

"Preschool industrial", I have a feeling I will be hearing that term a lot from now on.

[@Notester82]

41:21 That Videoball match sounded (and looked) hecking insane! :o

[@Malcove]

This really just kind of solidifies my future purchase of Truck Heck.

[@shubashuba9209]

In my opinion, listening to the developers of failed games is a lot more informative than listening to the ones that succeeded. Learning from the mistakes of others gives you more creative freedom than listening to success stories and trying to emulate them because you are chasing a trend.

[@cotteredwards3498]

That Videoball presentation is basically a standup routine on its own, that's a great skill

[@gamefoun]

I really with I could play Citystream, it seems like a really awesome game, now I'm sad that it has ended

[@gamefoun]

I wonder if it will ever come back

[@xthebumpx]

Whether it comes back or not, I hope the idea inspires a new genre of twitch integrated gaming.

[@chantingzhang]

That game is one awesome failure, I never heard of it before this vid, but it must have been a beautiful story for the players who joined the game, having really lived and grew with a huge community of other players and the devs at the same time, that rocket ride in the end really was a wonderful touch even as it ends

[@IDontDoDrumCovers]

I think the only reason it failed was just the lack of time they had to spend making it to begin with, also they should of had a full time person doing beep or have it be purely ai driven. hopefully they revisit the idea because I think there could be a lot of potential with a bit more time and resources put into it.

[@liraco_mx]

Videoball @ 31:00 You're welcome.

[@shashix6551]

#Truckheck

[@kenoahj]

HELLO

[@Stiganamatic]

No, thank you, person from three years ago

[@iggykidd]

It's so sad to see Videoball went the way of Nidhogg. I remember the geeknights saying in every pax recap that it was going to be the biggest game ever when it finally launched.

[@koalabrownie]

Nidhogg got a sequel, couldn't have been all that bad

[@fullanalysis93]

Videoball actually looks quite good, I would buy it for console

[@shashix6551]

Then buy it lmao; it's great

[@ChristopherCricketWallace]

I'm sooooo buying Videoball TONIGHT!

[@kimeiga]

Videoball honestly looks like so much fun. i love scientific game design

[@mfalk6263]

Tim Rogers is amazing.

[@RangePlusOne]

This is one the best GDC vids I've seen, incredibly fun to watch and learned so much!!

[@2Cerealbox]

Oh man, that Game Oven thing sounds exactly like what I thought my dream job would be, and hearing all the downsides to that kind of attitude and structure kinda makes me rethink that dream.

[@benjoe1993]

Yeah, unfortunately, making a gamedev company is as much business as fun-times. Don't get discouraged though. If you do it right (or have the right person to help you out with it) and get the hang of it, it can turn out amazingly :)

[@voodoopepercorns]

In the dreams defense, the guy giving the talk goes on about how his colleague felt like his ideas didn't matter, yet when hes put in the exact same situation on 'jellyreef' with his colleague taking control, he cant handle the taste of his own medicine. Honestly I think it was just a case of good friends don't necessarily make good colleagues, they should have noticed their stark difference in design goals early and never worked together. both ways they wanted to make games were valid, they just didn't align. Pro tip: do a bunch of game jams with someone before you make an indie team, that way you know if your visions align before diving in the deep end.

[@nujumkey]

eapecially that piracy pic holy shit

[@kajmace]

It can work, but relies on all the personalities involved working well with each other. Otherwise, you get this story..

[@saskys]

+Nujum Key yeah, 98% of your hard work and 216$ per day spent on developing right down the gutter by piracy. wow. fuck this.

[@Deciheximal]

Listening to the 2nd presenter, I've judged his coproducer Boyan as the good guy of the two. XD

[@EnriquePage91]

anony mous what are you talking about!? IT WAS BOYAN's "minuscule" vision that stopped this mastodon of game design -DaTrippyHippy- LOL JK Yeah - I agree - that dude is an idiot and it honestly sounds like he is skewing the stories to make it seem like he WASN'T a dick to Boyan - which really makes me wonder just how bad he actually treated him.

[@koalabrownie]

Yeah pretty much - they made a bunch of games that Boyan wasn't interested in, and then when they finally let Boyan design a game the presenter quit and killed the company. WTF

[@MucciciBandz]

Lol that friendster app or whatever that game was called sounds like TRASH... And why does he keep talking about himself as if he's Steve Jobs? WTF? #LongLiveBoyan

[@nate567987]

@@MucciciBandz he made plageinc so yea twitter.com/BojanEndrovski?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

[@designator7402]

I find that in these situations there really isn't a good or bad guy. There's lack or communication, conflicting interests, all that stuff. But the idea of "good" and "bad" implies an intend, which just doesn't apply, usually.

[@gloverelaxis]

Tim this speech was glorious and you have an ingenious comedic mind

[@gppaula]

I'm not even tangentially involved in game development, but I still found this very interesting.

[@MrWigg1es22]

CityStream sounds like it could have been a bigger, better, r/Place, but they just didn't have any working AI. They should really revisit this concept.

[@yrussq]

It sounded like a massive pain in the a with a ton of complicated rules and conditions that has nothing to do with a simplified graphics of a "fun" twitch game.

[@andrewhickinbottom1051]

That was really interesting to watch, and Tim Rogers was a delight as usual - he's my favourite thing about Kotaku by far!

[@shashix6551]

Kotaku feels empty now

[@Feyangel23]

Adriaan's talk felt a bit unusual and grimy not sure how else to describe it but the fact that he was talking publicly about the private work relationship with his friend without the main person to defend himself felt unfair and a bit sickening you don't have to agree with me btw If I were to put myself in Adriaan's shoes and talk about a friend I worked with in public I'd hate myself for it unless I was praising them

[@Fl4shback]

Why should he defend himself? He is not put in a bad light he clearly shows that it was just their different expectations not any flaws of his that let them fail…

[@doogelyjim8627]

Tim Rogers obviously rules and I came to this video to watch him, but that first speaker's talk was super interesting and I'm not even a developer (I skipped the second one)

[@AlexisSotelo]

RIP beep, interesting game.

[@mfalk6263]

Tim Rogers is precious.

[@bdandersen4916]

"That phone number is not fake, please don't tweet my phone number" said in a video, posted on youtube...

[@Martyvader]

Tim works at Kotaku now I think and his videos are great 😂

[@saluk7419]

Beep was cool... but they really needed to design the game beforehand to not need so much supervision.

[@vladkostin7557]

I think what summarizes the game's main problems is this: I've watched minutes of gameplay and I still have no clue what the game is about and what the hell is going on.

[@moseszero3281]

The game oven guy is a total tool. His partner is probably better off without him. Lesson from game oven. Never work with a guy who wants you to do all of his projects but quits the moment you want him to help with yours.

[@aaronbeardsell4964]

Moses Zero im stunned that the 2nd speaker learnt nothing from his total failure. He spent the whole thing blaming other people for his failures as a leader and developer.

[@realkirillkokorev]

@@---nu4ed We know it's you, Adriaan. Being a creative person doesn't excuse you of being a dick to your partners.

[@elchotocorazon]

"I always look for a social component in games". This guy wanted to make annoying advertising apps, his partner wanted to make games

[@subspacesausage5918]

The reason why his talk feels wrong is because he talks about his partners' personal stuff. So, the programmer had his ego hurt because an article did not acknowledge him as a cofounder? Ouch. I really wouldn't want somebody say something like this about me in front of a live audience.

[@SomniaCE]

@@elchotocorazon Social component doesn't mean advertisement games ya weirdo. Look at their library of games, look at how all of them encourage group/party play. He wanted to make games for a group, or for partners, not for a solo audience. That's all Social Component means

[@jeromyperez5532]

WHO IS THIS VIDEO BALL GUY AND WHY IS HE IN THE WRONG FIELD

[@shashix6551]

He is Tim Rogers and he used to work for Kotaku until recently; he has 150+ amazing videos over at Kotaku. I'd suggest videos like Metacritic Vs Yelp and his Final Fantasy VII let's mosey series to get started. Also, he just made his own KZbin channel

[@maddux1188]

Tim Rogers is amazing

[@rhythmandblues_alibi]

Wow I was thinking he's in the wrong job, he shouldn't be a dev he should be a games reviewer.

[@aikalabe7719]

bojan's diss track drops next week I can't wait

[@IDontDoDrumCovers]

no one wants to pay $3 to play a game they can only play with a friend, that requires you to awkwardly move around.

[@QuietPenguinGaming]

I need more Tim Rogers in my life. DAMN

[@benjoe1993]

Adriaan's talk made me rethink if I really want to make an indie studio or just be an indie with friends to make games with :D

[@sublimal2]

I miss CityStream, and remember all of those events fondly. TO THE MOON!

[@bradleysmith9924]

This was great.

[@jasonterry9343]

Is no one going to talk about how the second guy was just kind of describing how hes a bad developer the whole time?

[@Teshlax]

What do you mean?

[@KrucLeo]

Thank you. That guy is terrible drama queen. I guess, receiving 120k of subsidies and price money constrain his creativity too much. Also, leaving in the middle of the project as a lead game designer... Jesus..

[@MrWigg1es22]

He kind of shit on his partners the whole time, as well. On FriendStrap or whatever it was, he blamed Bojan for not really wanting to be a part of it, then he made excuses for being the same way himself on Jelly Reef.

[@SpasticEliteStudios]

@@KrucLeo having to rely on subsidies and prizes to keep a company afloat is like relying on winning the lottery to pay your mortgage: it's a terrible idea, it's not reliable, and just because it worked doesn't make you successful. He did pretty darn good as a gamedev, just not so great as a business partner or business owner.

[@Terotrous]

I do agree that it feels hard to sympathize with him. It was kind of particularly ironic that he noted that the fact that he received all the credit in the media was hurtful to the team, then gives this presentation where he shares only his own side of the story and doesn't really accept any responsibility for what happened, essentially sidelining them again.

[@deeliciousplum]

Tim Rogers was so much fun to listen to. Videoball looks like a lot of fun. I hope that a venture capitlist without any sense and with exceptionally deep pockets invests in Tim Rogers. At the very least, get that coder a new car. 🌻

[@chrisanderson687]

Ironically, Game Oven is only one letter away from Game Over.

[@adolfousiermarketstars6765]

love the channel 📸

[@SupremeDP]

Videoball guy has some crazy chaotic energy and it's so goddamn funny.

[@ShredST]

Man, I really like this idea of "fine thing".

[@halflucan]

Damn, Videoball looked really good! I think it would kill on mobile. One finger makes the Triangle torpedo to where you're touching, then another finger you hold to apply force (if I interpreted the controls correctly) In all fairness, any soccer like game that isn't Fifa will get compared to Rocket League nowadays, but IIRC, there isnt a Rocket League type game on the app store at the moment. 2 vs 2 mode barebones with matchmaking then you can scale from there. Im sure there would be ways to monetize the game without being that intrusive (you could embed sponsors logo's onto the fields?) or you can monetise it in a way which adds value to the player (maybe players get to customise their quarter of the field or something) I dunno. I really hope somebody picks it up again

[@SnailPacedDev]

the problem with mobile is that your fingers block the screen.

[@tjmixmasta]

I have a feeling Videoball is going to be one of those constant undercurrent type games, given enough time. I know I'm planning on running some games with my friends next week!

[@ViniciusFigueiredo19]

At least Tim is doing great nowadays

[@AlexVoxel]

The last one is hilarious, amazing

[@blakechildress944]

30:43 The start of Tim Rogers' magnificent monologue.

[@helloSanders]

Sick as always, Tim Rogers. #truckheck

[@VuPhamRainstorm]

take me a lot of time to hear Game Oven guy blaming his team @@ more than 1000 days of development / business, studio made only little 144K EU to growth within internal conflict.

[@TheNinjaDwarfBiker]

Really loved every presentation!

[@crazyluigi6664]

Indeed. That honestly feels underrated around here. Almost sad, when you think about it. :c

[@drewa6891]

Good luck Tim!

[@StarPortable]

Oh my god. Beep was one of the OG V-tubers.

[@danieldussault]

VIDEOBALL is spelled with all caps and is a great game.

[@lcpckp]

Damn, if I would have stumbled upon the Citystream game when it was out, I would have loved it.

[@idglet9565]

Thought I recognised that voice on the Videoball guy... Tim Rogers! Didn't expect his appearance here, but it was a pleasant surprise.

[@WIImotionmasher]

the city stream Live game sounds fun... I guess I missed out on it.

[@kiballzgame7730]

Seems cool and a nice social experiment

[@galazero]

Mr. Rogers, when can we expect the free/awesome version of Videoball?

[@Tanfor1]

galazero dude, support the devs!

[@galazero]

I already bought it twice! lol

[@cantrip7]

They just released it. It's called VIDEOBALL: FINAL TUNE

[@Johnstruct]

@@cantrip7 I'm glad I'm not the only person who decided to track down these GDC talks after watching Tim's End of Year/Decade list. (It's nice seeing all these old comments saying that Tim should be a comedian)

[@smiker]

I would go with Videoball in JS and there would be the key.

[@alexanderpodgorniy668]

Videoball looks like awesome party game. Maybe it could be remade with different graphics and name, like Rocket League was in order to target interested audience.

[@lukass7156]

damn I think the second talk is pretty uncomfortable, but also kinda important. I had a group project in uni that went really badly, and I think it was mostly 1) having different goals for the project and 2) me being an asshole where nothing seemed ever good enough by either party.

[@VladSuperKat]

Release it for Nintendo or just make it in Javascript with SVG (or no SVG) for the browser. It will be genius. It will work on all platforms forever.

[@jackawaka]

Videoball seems decent but it looks so visually cluttered

[@Decentsauce]

Great talk! (Or talks to be more accurate)

[@Architector_4]

13:05 ...Sick sidechain!

[@dreamer097]

lol

[@HeceduHM]

On Tim Roger own wise words: 40:47

[@princesike1]

Very interesting thoughts and revelations...I do not see any failed video games here...Just a learning experience vs. Monetary Issues.Still most importantly is the creativity and Uniqueness that was shared by all gamers....

[@michaeljonesmedia]

Tim Rogers (the Videoball guy) is the Jack Stratton of video games.

[@SteffyCush]

oh man THAT'S who he reminds me of-- if anything, the Action Button vibe is super similar to the Vulfpeck vibe

[@gnightrow4020]

30:40 that change in voice !! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@doktoren99]

Videoball looks amazing. If I could play it solo I would buy it 100%

[@tvsonicserbia5140]

You can, the "arcade" mode he talks about is basically a campaign mode with different layouts and AI types to teach you how to play and it's great.

[@doktoren99]

@@tvsonicserbia5140 Well I guess im going shopping then!

[@potterinhe11]

Videoball gameplay is a rare commodity.

[@JigaByte]

Didn't even know you can make games like that :p (edit: 1st presented game)

[@packediceisthebestminecraf9007]

40:46

[@LoudSodaCaleb]

That gameoven Guy seems like an over dramatic flake.

[@sharx2002]

VIDEOBALL seems like it'd make a great arcade game. i mean even in the trailer he compares it to a pool table, why not create VIDEOBALL: Table Edition?

[@Azlorn]

anyone else not get their free zor or get the zor they had doubled?

[@westingtyler1]

30:42 this guy has Solid Snake voice.

[@shashix6551]

This guy speaks 12 languages

[@ramblinevilmushroom]

I fucking ADORE this videoball guy. If he throws that comedy into his games, i think he'll make the funniest damn game ever.

[@BLCKCSTLS]

GET THESE KIDS OUTTA MY NEIGHBOURHOOD

[@scrub_jay]

Where's Truckheck, Tim

[@MR3DDev]

I wonder if the low end art help these games to fail

[@Max_G4]

Simplistic art is not really a problem if it's done good. There are many examples of games that sold good while only having basic shapes as their graphics.

[@cjcathead2468]

@@Max_G4 good games with simplistic art usually have very good art direction or complex game mechanics to make them stand out.

[@MrRobinjam]

Citystream looks fantastic, I wish I'd heard of it while it was active. Which leads me to wonder... did it fail because of lack of marketing?

[@ByBy001]

No, it would have worked by word of mouth only but the game was too boring and bugged so not many players stayed. They basically did the beta testing while people were playing and needed time to actually develop the game. They also made rooky mistakes. I hope it makes a come back, it was an amazing idea!

[@Wyvernnnn]

Tim Rodgers is amazing.

[@FlashMeterRed]

Wow that first guy. I can see why he would join the game in place of an "AI" meant to deliver automated responses... "Dammit, who typed a question mark on the TelePrompter?"

[@omghai2u]

32:41 I like how the speech to text reader thought he said "SCAM" instead of "GAME"

[@SiGhast]

Came back to this video for 37:20.

[@ShredST]

The scarf is now $470.

[@leemccarthy680]

I guess you could say.. he couldn't stand the heat? (game oven)

[@durgons749]

I think the second person just was shitty at being a team member. He talks so much about how they disagreed, and only mentions his projects, and babies them, while pretty much having Bojan be a worker when he was a cofounder. He also talks about him focusing on the previous games and that Bojan didn't like them, but he didn't really care, but then when Bojan does the exact same thing with the roles reversed, he doesn't even see through the hipocrisy

[@rhythmandblues_alibi]

One of the main takeaways I think is the importance of visual design and research. And sure programmers can make games but you truly do need an art designer who knows what they're doing. I think the 2nd guy's issue is that sure he has interesting ideas, we all do. But as an indie game dev you need to wear more than one hat, that's something they taught us early on in game dev. Like if you can't code and you're not an art director or writer or visual designer, what are you contributing? Aside from just telling everyone else what to do? It seems like the 1st game suffered from not enough time spent in reconnaissance.. and not enough playtesting. Plus I cannot *believe* they spent time actually playing as the AI helper LIVE! That is mad. Also as someone else commented, 10mins into the talk and I still had no idea how the game worked or what it really was. Where was his elevator pitch? The third chap, despite his sardonic delivery he was rather honest about the game's failings. It sounds like they had the makings of an interesting enough game but man it looks ugly. I don't get why he's so attached to that ugly visual style and acting like the only alternative is Fortnitification? Thomas Was Alone is a brilliant game with very simple visuals, yet it's effective, because the different shapes *mean* something and they actually have personality. The fact that the original playtest version of Videoball looks identical to the shipped version speaks volumes. They didn't spend enough time iterating on their art design. A game that looks either visually confusing and cluttered (the pro footage), or simple and boring (the 1v1 footage), is not going to do well as a streaming/esports game. It has to be fun and interesting to watch as well as to play.

[@smlinarcik]

Get these kids outta my NEIGHBORHOOD!

[@thebutcher1996]

Videoball guy is the Jeff Goldblum of the videogame industry lol