The 7 most subversive science fiction books

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[@bazoo513]

Very good list, but no Zamyatin's _We,_ Le Guin's _Four Ways to Forgiveness,_ _Left Hand of Darkness_ (speaking or Russ) or _The Dispossessed,_ Lem's numerous satirical works featuring Ijon Tichy... ?

[@hillaryclinton1232]

have read sci-fi since I was a teenager Stanisław Lem - Solaris

[@jaimehudson7623]

Yes, good list 'additions'. Heinlein's 'Stranger in A Strange Land' is subversive: TV Preachers, Free Sex, etc. Maybe that is why there is no film adaptation as yet (that I know of). I see Cillian Murphy as Michael Valentine Smith.

[@troydavis1]

About H G Wells, his classic on time travel (The Time Machine) with the evolution of Eloi and Morlocks is even more subversive ! I’m surprised you did not mention it !

[@ThomEWhalen]

Exactly. The movies never mention that the naive, passive Eloi are descendants of the management class and the Morlocks are the working class. The workers literally eat the managers.Hard to get more subversive than that!

[@Gary-zq3pz]

Harlan Ellison and Norman Spinnard both put out some VERY subversive and dark stories.

[@johanna-hypatiacybeleia2465]

Harlan Ellison wasn't concerned with subverting the state. He wanted to subvert reality altogether.

[@DrZootie]

Spinrad's "The Men in the Jungle" comes to mind.

[@Gary-zq3pz]

Bug Jack Baron is a story involving immortality, and what it takes to get it...yikes!

[@Scottlp2]

“I have no mouth and must scream” is forever burned into my brain (that and Ellison’s getting revenge by sending dead animal 3rd class mail to his publisher who’d annoyed him).

[@bbrother92]

How scifi could be subversive

[@davecrowson448]

I think Childhood’s End by Arthur C Clark is actually pretty subversive, at least as far as common religious beliefs in the west, especially when it was written. Maybe he’s a “dinosaur”, but he was a brilliant man who wrote some fascinating books. Maybe he’s a little dry, but he predicted a lot. He actually was a rocket scientist!

[@joenalaska]

It’s unfortunate that a lot of younger people don’t understand the times that these books were written (ugh, now I’M a dinosaur..), and that what isn’t subversive at all now was VERY subversive in its time. In fact they can thank these dinosaurs (Masters) for some of the progress that has happened, as they planted seeds that not only advanced our technology and furthered development in a myriad of fields, but also fostered social change as well. It is only because they were so influential and successful that they aren’t still considered subversive.

[@stankrajewski8255]

The people of 2024 could really use a blockbuster Netflix et. al. series of Childhood's End. While I enjoy the Dune movies, I am sick of the notion that bloodlines are predictive of great leaders. It is time that we render only disdain unto ceasar and the oligarchs of the modern era.

[@smartalek180]

Not just "A" rocket scientist. IIRC, he was THE one who came up w/the concept of geosynchronous comms satellites. The whole modern world -- Internet, GPS, whole 9 yards -- is literally riding on his idea. Also involved in the development of radar, I blv? Open to correction if I'm wrong; my memory cache is corrupted.

[@TheRealNormanBates]

@@stankrajewski8255*Childhood’s End* was made into a mini series a few years ago. It was pretty good!

[@davecrowson448]

@@TheRealNormanBatesI never knew that,

[@DarinRWagner]

Heinlein didn't say (in his novel Starship Troopers) that "citizenship should be removed from anyone who hasn't performed military service." He said it should be removed from anyone who hasn't performed FEDERAL service. The vast majority of citizens didn't actually serve in the military.

[@RedSiegfried]

And he never said the franchise should be removed either. In that world, it simply wasn't granted until you've performed some level of federal public service. And many people decided it wasn't worth the trouble, just like a lot of people decide it's not worth their trouble to vote.

[@swiftmatic]

There was one passage in the book that said if you weren't fit for military service, they would find SOMETHING for you to do in service to the Federation.

[@DarinRWagner]

@@swiftmatic There were also passages that said the military was a tiny fraction of the totality of the government. Your federal service could mean being a mailman in the desert, or something like that.

[@hillaryclinton1232]

@DarinRWagner Youre Wrong. Heinlein did say in public and every time he was able that "citizenship should be removed from anyone who hasn't performed military service." You don't know crap from Cabbage, I was born 1949 and read All the Science Fiction in 1950s and 1960s.

[@swiftmatic]

@@hillaryclinton1232 citation? PROOF?

[@RedSiegfried]

You could have just mentioned Stranger In A Strange Land and left it at that.

[@SG-js2qn]

Science fiction, from the days of Mary Shelley, has been a medium of speculation, warning and caution. There is a pulp adventure version of science fiction, but to me, at least, the heart of it is looking at scientific development and human nature and raising an eyebrow.

[@bettywing52]

A Polish co-worker told me Stanislaw Lem's books were literally passed hand to hand when he was a kid there. Lots of The Star Diaries were viewed as parodies of the Soviet State. I'd love to see Return from the Stars as a feature film.

[@bazoo513]

Yup, many Lem's works were political satire, not only _The Star Diaries_ but also _Memoirs Found in a Bathtub_ or _Futurological Congress_ - anything featuring Iyon Tychy, actually. Soviets were not the only "target" - so was Mao's China and the US.

[@PaulBallantyne250]

Stanislaw LEM "Memoirs Found In A Bathtub"

[@paulm749]

Alice Sheldon, writing as James Tiptree Jr., deserves to be included in this discussion. Pick up a copy of her short story anthology _Her Smoke Rose Up Forever_ and be amazed, enthralled and disturbed. Much of her work explores feminist themes, but it could also be argued that she was concerned with what it means to be fully human.

[@samfowler2073]

It's a fantastic collection, if a little bloodthirsty, not sure any story ends without a few deaths or the end of the world.😂

[@johanna-hypatiacybeleia2465]

"The Women Men Don't See" made a powerful critique of patriarchy from women's point of view (filtered through a male chauvinist narrator!). "What women do is survive. We live by ones and twos in the chinks of your world-machine."

[@NipplePinchGenocide]

I found a french writer, guy s name is Serge Brussolo. I have no idea how well known he is, if he is even published in english or any other language but let me tell you. It is absolutely the most batshit stuff you will ever read. He mixes sci fi and horror in a way that is impossible to describe. While reading some of his books every 4-5 pages I had to stop and just wonder what kind of drugs the man is on.

[@smartalek180]

Thank u for the rec. Just downloaded the 1990 Arkham edition.

[@AlwaysCensored-xp1be]

For me "subversive" is the stories that changed my thinking. Hal Clements Mission of Gravity and his other stories changed my ideas of what intelligence and society is.

[@MD97531]

Blindsight did that for me. I know it’s a common one because of that “twist”. (Potential spoilers): Perhaps combined with the fact I read it shortly before ChatGPT was released, it really just got me to think differently about the nature and value of consciousness.

[@electricAB]

Awesome stuff! I do hope you will be doing some deeper dives into some, or all, of the these authors… like you did for Ursula Le Guin.

[@MontyMotorsport]

Jonesy the cat keeps appearing. Restless after all that hypersleep no doubt! 😂

[@DamienWalter]

Cat number 1

[@daviddestin1990]

I'm afraid the little orange cat has stolen your thunder, Damien. Body language: "Wots he on about now?? pets and food now plz. fine, I'll just snooze till you run down...""

[@DamienWalter]

@@daviddestin1990 That's the plan.

[@dylanerickson2262]

Where can I read the Bull's hour? I've been searching but have come up empty. I've found a partial translation from Scribd, but that's about it.

[@hjs9td]

I read Dahlgren on recommendation of Fredrik Pohl in 1977 at ArbourCon. One can't help but think that books like Cormac McCarthy's The Road were influenced by it.

[@haidner]

Yeah, "Dahlgren" was fantastic!

[@henrya3530]

I would like to suggest the works of Polish writer Stanisław Lem, particularly Solaris. Human scientists are trying to understand an alien entity (Solaris) while it is trying to understand them. Tarkovsky's 1972 film adaptation of the novel is quite good given the technological limitations of the time. The 2002 remake with George Clooney was a complete disappointment as it excludes Lem's scientific and philosophical themes.

[@rogervandusen8361]

what about Zaemyatin's "We."?

[@larrykelly-kf5pp]

So glad you mentioned Douglas Adams.

[@bernardocoto8519]

Thanks for highlighting the impact and relevance of soviet era writers, usually this kind of videos totally ignore them...

[@ingwerschwensen8115]

We've crossed paths before but only in that I have two of your vids on my watch later list. Now I finally looked up your channel's page, and that plus this very good video on the subversive power of SF, of course, made me subscribe.

[@jaytkachuk]

Good list, but incomplete, as so many have pointed out. No Lem, Gibson, Dick, Halderman, Orwell, Zamyatin, etc. Kudos on having the Strugatsky Brothers on the list, but their most daring subversive novel is "Waves Extinguish Wind".

[@michakoodziej5741]

Damien, thank you so much for this material!

[@JosephSuber31st]

Kilgore Trout

[@stu9000]

Glad to have Damien’s informed and thoughtful point of view on these.

[@marblemunkey]

I had to laugh "[Delaney] needs no introduction", yet I'm 40, have read sci-fi since I was a teenager and yet Wells and Butler were the only two on this list that I was familiar with. (RAH didn't count as he's not _on_ the list). Looking forward to expanding my horizons.

[@smartalek180]

I am SO jealous of u, that u get to read so much of Delany FOR THE FIRST TIME! "Empire Star" is one of my 2 ATF Gtst SciFi works EVAH (Bester's "Stars My Destination" is t'other). Have fun!

[@hillaryclinton1232]

have read sci-fi since 1959 was in 6th.grade my famlily were Military the Airforse Airmen turned me on to sci-fy

[@dareese6778]

Doris Lessing's "Shikasta". Well done, girl. 🎉❤

[@NancyLebovitz]

Heinlein was progressive here and there-- "Logic of Empire", for example, is about a couple of men talking about how there's nothing wrong with indentured servitude-- and then they get trapped in it themselves. In Friday, the main character is forced out of a group marriage because she objects to a racist decision, and the portrait of smug racism is completely consistent with social justice depictions of racism. You don't have Starship Troopers quite right-- people earn the right to vote by volunteering for high risk work-- usually military, but it isn't about citizenship. _Glory Road_ is bitterly cynical about American military adventures. By the way, "subversive" isn't equivalent to good.

[@smartalek180]

Thank you. Brilliant exposition, eloquently framed. If this were the Twit, I'd be hitting "follow" rt now.

[@NancyLebovitz]

@@smartalek180 I'm on Facebook under my name.

[@TheMonkeyscribe]

Isn’t Heinlein subversive when written by someone living in a liberal democracy? I may not share the underlying political views, but they seem pretty geared toward subversion of the prevailing liberal norms of his time toward libertarianism or fascism depending on your interpretation.

[@antoniodittman5820]

Liberal democracy has still enacted drafts and still has a heavy bend towards military service, war as a means of expansion, and nationalism. So his ideas do not undermine that they build upon it. They are essentially a call to remove the velvet glove and reveal the iron fist for what it is. To be subversive would require criticism of the power structures fundamental principles

[@TheMonkeyscribe]

You are saying that all liberal democracies are essentially authoritarian states with some window dressing? That seems a bit reductive. I expect their adherents view themselves as having communism on one side and authoritarianism on the other side, with liberal democracies trying to stand in the middle. If that is the prevailing viewpoint (as I think it was in the 60s and 70s in the West) then using fiction to subvert the norms of liberal democracies and drag them toward either pole subverts the attempt to avoid the poles.

[@hollyingraham3980]

Was RAH living in a liberal democracy? Those are written between WWII and Watergate.

[@SusCalvin]

Heinlein has a lot of different phases through his life and each one produces different stuff. One of my friends thought Heinlein at this point was the sort of libertarian who is very particular about liberties he wants himself and is perfectly ready to sacrifice liberties you like for them. The Federation won't come over and confiscate your car because private property is an important liberty.

[@swiftmatic]

I got about 200 pages into "Dhalgren" before I just gave up😢

[@v1e1r1g1e1]

If no-one recognises your thoughts and feelings, it is as if you never existed. To declare a writer ''most subversive'', one must demonstrate that their works generated significant societal impact.

[@matthewdenckla6567]

Thanks for this video!

[@martinknapp7640]

I’m not sure I agree entirely with your take on Yefremov. In The Bull’s Hour, the explorers from Earth come to a planet which is indeed a satire on the Soviet Union. However the Earth they come from is depicted as a communist society as it might have been had the Soviet Union remained true to its original ideals

[@headlessspaceman5681]

Yeah Joanna Russ. Just read "We Who Are About To..." recently and holy Gilligan's Island Batman that was one of the best books I've ever read, any genre. And yet up until very recently, as you say, I had never heard of her. Truly subversive. C.M. Kornbluth is another mostly forgotten sci-fi writer who is surprisingly good today. The Strutgasky Bros could only be so subversive considering where and when they were writing! I loved Roadside Picnic but is it subversive? Or just a creative, original piece of literature? I found Man In The High Castle fairly subversive, the book not the TV show.

[@KatharineOsborne]

I had always wondered why people called Heinlein very right wing, but given I’d only read Stranger in a Strange Land and Have Spacesuit Will Travel (written for kids), and those were his more liberal works, that makes more sense now.

[@frankshifreen]

I hated Dhalgren, couldn’t figure it out- Took workshops with Delaney and loved his other books

[@frankshifreen]

And liked him personally- great guy

[@Globovoyeur]

I don't think Heinlein can be so easily pigeonholed. Starship Troopers can be labeled right-wing, but "If this Goes On..." and its novelization in Revolt in 2100 arguably criticize the right-wing evangelical movement we see today.

[@smartalek180]

Heinlein was a complex guy, WAY deeper & more multi-faceted than most of his reductionist critix OR defenders ever recognize. If u want one pretty good defense of him, check out Spider Robinson's "Rah-Rah-RAH," readily googleable on the web.

[@jwspiker]

did the bull's hour ever get an English translation?

[@LukeAdamMiller]

Great video.

[@borgstod]

I fear the modern world is descending towards Vogan poetry. Always know where your towel is.

[@jaimehudson7623]

Amazing list and am grateful for this video. Some authors I will now go and read soon. But you left out a giant of the subversive subgenre of Sci-Fi: Philip K. Dick, who asked "What is Reality?" way before AI and digital tech in everyday Life!

[@jaimehudson7623]

P.S. I love your orange 'Cat 1' waiting for 'Alice Through the Looking Glass' to arrive soon?

[@sergegirard864]

I have long held the belief that science fiction is the modern form of philosophical novel. BTW, has anyone told you that you bear a striking resemblance with Brett Goldstein a.k.a Roy Kent from Ted Lasso? Anyway, I mean this as a compliment. 😊

[@Majesticon]

Alex Smith's ARKDUST

[@kikodekliko1209]

Well only veterans having cititzenship would be a subversive idea wouldn't it? I am definitely, definitely not in favor of it, but in the current neoliberal capitalist society it would be a bit too fash and therefore subversive? Doesn't matter it happened in pre-modern societies already because we don't currently live in one? Anyway, just a nitpick great video. (Unless subversive is only allowed to have a positive meaning, then yeah, that idea wouldn't be a good or 'cool' thing to implement).

[@DamienWalter]

Reactionary more than subversive. Capitalism will be right there with mass mobilisation when it serves profits.

[@kikodekliko1209]

@@DamienWalter Maybe I am stretching patience your here, and fair enough, but what actually is reactionary? I have heard it been said a lot. The dictionary definition of "opposing social or political progress" doesn't really cut it for me. I mean, the word seems to carry more meaning than just that. I am personally confused by the use of it (not just by you, but in general). Anyway, I agree mass mobilization would not be disfavored by the moneyed classes when it serves profits.

[@DamienWalter]

​@@kikodekliko1209It's literally a reaction, against radicalism, back towards traditional power structures. "Star Wars needs more diversity" is radical. "Put Star Wars back how it was" is reactionary.

[@kikodekliko1209]

@@DamienWalter I understand, but then someone proposing to kill off 99% of humanity in some evil villain storyline would not be a reactionary because that's not necessarily a reaction to progress or a want to return to traditional power structures? (So basically, not all evil is reactionary then?) Again I'm sorry if I engage you too much.

[@DamienWalter]

@@kikodekliko1209 Reactionary isn't a moral judgement. Although it does tend to some violence.

[@wbwarren57]

Great video! Thank you. I really like your mention of the idea of a “consensus reality“. I think Trump is a great example of an anti-narrative being introduced that can cause profound changes in the society and then the behavior and then the values that we have come to expect. Let’s hope it does not take over.

[@Alfador42]

The older I get, the more appreciative I am of sci-fi. The ending of this video makes it perfectly clear why. What an inspirational way of putting it into words. I also have to underline how clever it was of you to insert that clip of Flynne sliding off the VR goggles and coming back to our world as you were talking about the idea of gender fluidity. Well played sir. Well played.

[@DamienWalter]

I love video editing because of these happy coincidences. It was on the timeline from the previous section, and totally fitted.

[@Alfador42]

@@DamienWalter You do seem to be enjoying yourself more in the editing department. It was quite obvious during that segment where you mentioned those right leaning sci-fi writers. Keep doing what you do!

[@dreadogastusf3548]

I was enjoying my after-breakfast coffee with some internet when I saw a video about S-F and subversion. Now my reality seems so...fragile that I don't want to get out of my chair.

[@garrenosborne9623]

lol There goes Damo with his Marchzist feaorizing again ps do Bioshock & ayn rand

[@cine9nine]

Subversive art challenges the prevailing culture and/or power structures. Supporters of the prevailing culture or power structure classify those works as reactionary.

[@rickwrites2612]

No. Reactionionary has a static meaning.

[@psikeyhackr6914]

*The Space Merchants* by Frederick Pohl *Voyage from Yesteryear* by James P Hogan *Daemon and Freedom* by Daniel Suarez

[@thomassmith6232]

That's why books were banned in Fahrenheit 451.

[@chinablue1699]

Crimony !! that hair growing off your left ear is disturbing , do a comb over to the right with it or something.

[@KikomochiMendoza]

I find The Left Hand of Darkness to be pretty subversive. Its depiction of non heteronormative relationship is still progressive to this day.

[@TheRealNormanBates]

How is that “progress”? You understand that just because it is different or alien to something traditional or conservative doesn’t mean it’s progress.

[@PatrickKniesler]

I feel like your version of subversion has run its course now that the current mode of control is completely obliterating the popular conception of true human history, so much so that the subversive concepts you defined are central to deconstructing the non-elite's ability to set firm footing on reality - to our deteiment.

[@maxschreck4095]

Oh thanks for calling out the reactionary nature of Starship Troopers. I only know the book by reputation but I have the feeling that if I would enjoy it I would only enjoy it as I do Lovecrafts work, namely as a horror story.

[@ThatsMrPencilneck2U]

I thought Starship Troopers was very subtle. I thought it hinted that the Arachnids were the innocent indigenous creatures being forced to fight for their homeland, while our military alliances were capricious. To make the story a fun adventure from a soldier's point of view, the reader needed to indoctrinated into the same fascist mindset that makes a soldier effective. Heinlein might have been a complete fascist, but he never made out the war as being either justified in any way. Personally, I think that speaks volumes.

[@peterhitchmough9243]

The Verhoeven movie is certainly NOT reactionary. (No I haven't read the book, don't shoot me - you're supposed to be progressive like me) . It's a right wing slaughter fest, sure, but any sane viewer sees the propaganda inherent within it We are meant to be reviled, to be at least confused by the gung-ho militarism.

[@bernardocoto8519]

I come from a country that hasn't had an army or armed conflict in 70 years, and I ended up finishing reading Starship Troopers (in my 20s) wanting to enlist and go to war. Thank goodnes it was not possible at the moment...

[@maxschreck4095]

Haha, good for you! @@bernardocoto8519

[@ThatsMrPencilneck2U]

@@mal35m-dw2qv At what threshold can you say any point was intended?

[@joeyj6808]

Heinlein wasn't subversive, unless you consider fascism subversive.

[@the_golden_bough8541]

Ahh, yes, Arthur C. Clarke. The great lover of prebu boys. I'm glad Kubrick kept 100% total control over the writing of the BOOK 2001 and used Clarke as an unwitting rube to help keep the true meaning of the FILM hidden.

[@DamienWalter]

As someone who has investigated that accusation in depth, there is zero evidence to support it.

[@the_golden_bough8541]

I think there is enough evidence to break beyond a reasonable doubt.

[@DamienWalter]

@@the_golden_bough8541 There is no evidence. There is hearsay, which is not evidence. Have you actually spent anytime researching this, or are you just mindlessly repeating things you half read or heard?

[@blackdogbarking]

I love subversive stuff in sf and fantasy and that is why it is my fave genre. Most is right wing propaganda though (altruistic arms dealers etc) are we Marxists woke folk nowadays?

[@g.dalfleblanc63]

The OXTR gene genotype GG is a good indicator of empathy in an individual. I'm an XY individual and I have this genotype. There's XX individuals with OXTR genotype TT who demonstrate lower behavioral sensitivity, lower engagement, higher intrusiveness, and more frequent frightened/frightening behavior than mothers with TG or GG genotypes. Gender can be performative, usually it's people suppress parts of themselves to conform to gender stereotypes. I'll let you in on a secret, I also have the warrior gene and my empathy let's me into the minds of my enemies. But also if it was possible I'd carry children. JK Rowling if she ever read this would flip out lol.

[@ThatsMrPencilneck2U]

Anybody from the 19th Century would tell you that there isn't that much difference between a plantation slave and the average modern hourly worker. Back then, it was call wage slavery.

[@pauljazzman408]

That does understate the brutality of slavery with whipping, raping and taking your children. But working all your life to pay for a house you can barely afford isn’t exactly free, more like being a serfdom perhaps

[@JonathanHartley]

I suppose you would have no objections to me taking your children into slavery then?

[@PerryWagle]

@@pauljazzman408 If a typical household could afford a house these days.

[@ThatsMrPencilneck2U]

@@paulperkins1615 Use a little logic. You have a slave you own for life, an indentured servant you have a 5 year contract with, and some guy you're paying by the hour. They all complain about something hurting. Which one are you going to worry about damaging permanently? If you're a business man, you even give the rental more respect! Back in the 1980's, I worked with a guy on a temp assignment that was so desperate, he kept working after a forklift ran over his foot. Slavery isn't the crappiest thing people do to each other. Wage slavery allows the people who own everything to practice benign neglect like nothing else.

[@ThatsMrPencilneck2U]

@@paulperkins1615 "Legal rights?" If you've invested thousands of dollars in a slave, you don't want to cripple him, before you get your money's worth. An indentured servant needs less consideration. As for some slob that walked in off the street, well, maybe then, you have to worry about legal considerations.