The 7 most subversive science fiction books

[@Gary-zq3pz]

Harlan Ellison and Norman Spinnard both put out some VERY subversive and dark stories.

[@johanna-hypatiacybeleia2465]

Harlan Ellison wasn't concerned with subverting the state. He wanted to subvert reality altogether.

[@DrZootie]

Spinrad's "The Men in the Jungle" comes to mind.

[@Gary-zq3pz]

Bug Jack Baron is a story involving immortality, and what it takes to get it...yikes!

[@Scottlp2]

“I have no mouth and must scream” is forever burned into my brain (that and Ellison’s getting revenge by sending dead animal 3rd class mail to his publisher who’d annoyed him).

[@bbrother92]

How scifi could be subversive

[@davecrowson448]

I think Childhood’s End by Arthur C Clark is actually pretty subversive, at least as far as common religious beliefs in the west, especially when it was written. Maybe he’s a “dinosaur”, but he was a brilliant man who wrote some fascinating books. Maybe he’s a little dry, but he predicted a lot. He actually was a rocket scientist!

[@joenalaska]

It’s unfortunate that a lot of younger people don’t understand the times that these books were written (ugh, now I’M a dinosaur..), and that what isn’t subversive at all now was VERY subversive in its time. In fact they can thank these dinosaurs (Masters) for some of the progress that has happened, as they planted seeds that not only advanced our technology and furthered development in a myriad of fields, but also fostered social change as well. It is only because they were so influential and successful that they aren’t still considered subversive.

[@stankrajewski8255]

The people of 2024 could really use a blockbuster Netflix et. al. series of Childhood's End. While I enjoy the Dune movies, I am sick of the notion that bloodlines are predictive of great leaders. It is time that we render only disdain unto ceasar and the oligarchs of the modern era.

[@smartalek180]

Not just "A" rocket scientist. IIRC, he was THE one who came up w/the concept of geosynchronous comms satellites. The whole modern world -- Internet, GPS, whole 9 yards -- is literally riding on his idea. Also involved in the development of radar, I blv? Open to correction if I'm wrong; my memory cache is corrupted.

[@TheRealNormanBates]

@@stankrajewski8255*Childhood’s End* was made into a mini series a few years ago. It was pretty good!

[@davecrowson448]

@@TheRealNormanBatesI never knew that,

[@bazoo513]

Very good list, but no Zamyatin's _We,_ Le Guin's _Four Ways to Forgiveness,_ _Left Hand of Darkness_ (speaking or Russ) or _The Dispossessed,_ Lem's numerous satirical works featuring Ijon Tichy... ?

[@hillaryclinton1232]

have read sci-fi since I was a teenager Stanisław Lem - Solaris

[@jaimehudson7623]

Yes, good list 'additions'. Heinlein's 'Stranger in A Strange Land' is subversive: TV Preachers, Free Sex, etc. Maybe that is why there is no film adaptation as yet (that I know of). I see Cillian Murphy as Michael Valentine Smith.

[@thomasciarlariello]

My conservative mother freaked and spazzed out from Le Guin's books.

[@SG-js2qn]

Science fiction, from the days of Mary Shelley, has been a medium of speculation, warning and caution. There is a pulp adventure version of science fiction, but to me, at least, the heart of it is looking at scientific development and human nature and raising an eyebrow.

[@thomasciarlariello]

I taught a neighbor boy how to do electrophoresis to extract DNA genes with a 9 Volt batteries and how to electroporate transfect DNA genes into amphibian eggs with an electrolyzer modified from an AM FM radio and of course her daughter Ada Lovelace of Leia hairstyle punched cards for Babbage.

[@DarinRWagner]

Heinlein didn't say (in his novel Starship Troopers) that "citizenship should be removed from anyone who hasn't performed military service." He said it should be removed from anyone who hasn't performed FEDERAL service. The vast majority of citizens didn't actually serve in the military.

[@RedSiegfried]

And he never said the franchise should be removed either. In that world, it simply wasn't granted until you've performed some level of federal public service. And many people decided it wasn't worth the trouble, just like a lot of people decide it's not worth their trouble to vote.

[@swiftmatic]

There was one passage in the book that said if you weren't fit for military service, they would find SOMETHING for you to do in service to the Federation.

[@DarinRWagner]

@@swiftmatic There were also passages that said the military was a tiny fraction of the totality of the government. Your federal service could mean being a mailman in the desert, or something like that.

[@hillaryclinton1232]

@DarinRWagner Youre Wrong. Heinlein did say in public and every time he was able that "citizenship should be removed from anyone who hasn't performed military service." You don't know crap from Cabbage, I was born 1949 and read All the Science Fiction in 1950s and 1960s.

[@swiftmatic]

@@hillaryclinton1232 citation? PROOF?

[@paulm749]

Alice Sheldon, writing as James Tiptree Jr., deserves to be included in this discussion. Pick up a copy of her short story anthology _Her Smoke Rose Up Forever_ and be amazed, enthralled and disturbed. Much of her work explores feminist themes, but it could also be argued that she was concerned with what it means to be fully human.

[@samfowler2073]

It's a fantastic collection, if a little bloodthirsty, not sure any story ends without a few deaths or the end of the world.😂

[@johanna-hypatiacybeleia2465]

"The Women Men Don't See" made a powerful critique of patriarchy from women's point of view (filtered through a male chauvinist narrator!). "What women do is survive. We live by ones and twos in the chinks of your world-machine."

[@MeelatchiDaibukti]

I found a french writer, guy s name is Serge Brussolo. I have no idea how well known he is, if he is even published in english or any other language but let me tell you. It is absolutely the most batshit stuff you will ever read. He mixes sci fi and horror in a way that is impossible to describe. While reading some of his books every 4-5 pages I had to stop and just wonder what kind of drugs the man is on.

[@smartalek180]

Thank u for the rec. Just downloaded the 1990 Arkham edition.

[@joechip4822]

Sheldon also had the talent to achieve subversive worldbuildung with only a glimpse and single sentences. Take E.g. her famous ultra short story "And I Awoke and Found Me Here on the Cold Hill's Side" where it is only hinted at mankind ultimately being brought down by irresistible but in the long run fatal s**ual attraction of human women to aliens.

[@RedSiegfried]

You could have just mentioned Stranger In A Strange Land and left it at that.

[@electricAB]

Awesome stuff! I do hope you will be doing some deeper dives into some, or all, of the these authors… like you did for Ursula Le Guin.

[@PaulBallantyne250]

Stanislaw LEM "Memoirs Found In A Bathtub"

[@NancyLebovitz]

Heinlein was progressive here and there-- "Logic of Empire", for example, is about a couple of men talking about how there's nothing wrong with indentured servitude-- and then they get trapped in it themselves. In Friday, the main character is forced out of a group marriage because she objects to a racist decision, and the portrait of smug racism is completely consistent with social justice depictions of racism. You don't have Starship Troopers quite right-- people earn the right to vote by volunteering for high risk work-- usually military, but it isn't about citizenship. _Glory Road_ is bitterly cynical about American military adventures. By the way, "subversive" isn't equivalent to good.

[@smartalek180]

Thank you. Brilliant exposition, eloquently framed. If this were the Twit, I'd be hitting "follow" rt now.

[@NancyLebovitz]

@@smartalek180 I'm on Facebook under my name.

[@henrya3530]

I would like to suggest the works of Polish writer Stanisław Lem, particularly Solaris. Human scientists are trying to understand an alien entity (Solaris) while it is trying to understand them. Tarkovsky's 1972 film adaptation of the novel is quite good given the technological limitations of the time. The 2002 remake with George Clooney was a complete disappointment as it excludes Lem's scientific and philosophical themes.

[@hjs9td]

I read Dahlgren on recommendation of Fredrik Pohl in 1977 at ArbourCon. One can't help but think that books like Cormac McCarthy's The Road were influenced by it.

[@haidner]

Yeah, "Dahlgren" was fantastic!

[@JosephSuber31st]

Kilgore Trout

[@MontyMotorsport]

Jonesy the cat keeps appearing. Restless after all that hypersleep no doubt! 😂

[@DamienWalter]

Cat number 1

[@daviddestin1990]

I'm afraid the little orange cat has stolen your thunder, Damien. Body language: "Wots he on about now?? pets and food now plz. fine, I'll just snooze till you run down...""

[@DamienWalter]

@@daviddestin1990 That's the plan.

[@AlwaysCensored-xp1be]

For me "subversive" is the stories that changed my thinking. Hal Clements Mission of Gravity and his other stories changed my ideas of what intelligence and society is.

[@MD97531]

Blindsight did that for me. I know it’s a common one because of that “twist”. (Potential spoilers): Perhaps combined with the fact I read it shortly before ChatGPT was released, it really just got me to think differently about the nature and value of consciousness.

[@bernardocoto8519]

Thanks for highlighting the impact and relevance of soviet era writers, usually this kind of videos totally ignore them...

[@bernardocoto8519]

These videos always leave me with the realization that I haven't read as much SF as I thought, and that I don't read as much as I used to nowadays. This is the worst dystopian nightmare...

[@jeremyacton4569]

Ira Levin's " This Perfect Day". The final scene is pure victorious, chaotic subversion. I also appreciated the 'ingredients' and personal qualities necessary in the protagonist to get to that place where a total overthrow is made is made possible.

[@marblemunkey]

I had to laugh "[Delaney] needs no introduction", yet I'm 40, have read sci-fi since I was a teenager and yet Wells and Butler were the only two on this list that I was familiar with. (RAH didn't count as he's not _on_ the list). Looking forward to expanding my horizons.

[@smartalek180]

I am SO jealous of u, that u get to read so much of Delany FOR THE FIRST TIME! "Empire Star" is one of my 2 ATF Gtst SciFi works EVAH (Bester's "Stars My Destination" is t'other). Have fun!

[@hillaryclinton1232]

have read sci-fi since 1959 was in 6th.grade my famlily were Military the Airforse Airmen turned me on to sci-fy

[@ingwerschwensen8115]

We've crossed paths before but only in that I have two of your vids on my watch later list. Now I finally looked up your channel's page, and that plus this very good video on the subversive power of SF, of course, made me subscribe.

[@dylanerickson2262]

Where can I read the Bull's hour? I've been searching but have come up empty. I've found a partial translation from Scribd, but that's about it.

[@markshor134]

The novel was never translated into Russian completely. There are only French, Czech, Bulgarian and Polish versions. Although nowadays you can read in machine translation.

[@somestuff7876]

@@markshor134 into English you mean?) Bull's hour was published in USSR/Russia in 1970, in 1988, in 1992... hell, even last year by Neoclassic. Yeah, it seems to be that you can find only first half of translation, maybe full version never existed? Well, wait a year or two, and ai-translation might get you there. Most of the hints and nuance, would be probably lost regardless of accuracy due to difference in culture and times.

[@headlessspaceman5681]

Yeah Joanna Russ. Just read "We Who Are About To..." recently and holy Gilligan's Island Batman that was one of the best books I've ever read, any genre. And yet up until very recently, as you say, I had never heard of her. Truly subversive. C.M. Kornbluth is another mostly forgotten sci-fi writer who is surprisingly good today. The Strutgasky Bros could only be so subversive considering where and when they were writing! I loved Roadside Picnic but is it subversive? Or just a creative, original piece of literature? I found Man In The High Castle fairly subversive, the book not the TV show.

[@markshor134]

Agree with you regarding Roadside Picnic - nothing subversive. Unlike "Ugly Swans".

[@TheMonkeyscribe]

Isn’t Heinlein subversive when written by someone living in a liberal democracy? I may not share the underlying political views, but they seem pretty geared toward subversion of the prevailing liberal norms of his time toward libertarianism or fascism depending on your interpretation.

[@antoniodittman5820]

Liberal democracy has still enacted drafts and still has a heavy bend towards military service, war as a means of expansion, and nationalism. So his ideas do not undermine that they build upon it. They are essentially a call to remove the velvet glove and reveal the iron fist for what it is. To be subversive would require criticism of the power structures fundamental principles

[@TheMonkeyscribe]

You are saying that all liberal democracies are essentially authoritarian states with some window dressing? That seems a bit reductive. I expect their adherents view themselves as having communism on one side and authoritarianism on the other side, with liberal democracies trying to stand in the middle. If that is the prevailing viewpoint (as I think it was in the 60s and 70s in the West) then using fiction to subvert the norms of liberal democracies and drag them toward either pole subverts the attempt to avoid the poles.

[@hollyingraham3980]

Was RAH living in a liberal democracy? Those are written between WWII and Watergate.

[@SusCalvin]

Heinlein has a lot of different phases through his life and each one produces different stuff. One of my friends thought Heinlein at this point was the sort of libertarian who is very particular about liberties he wants himself and is perfectly ready to sacrifice liberties you like for them. The Federation won't come over and confiscate your car because private property is an important liberty.

[@ravenshadowz2343]

Can I also get a list of the book titles also? Thank you for this video, I subscribed.

[@michakoodziej5741]

Damien, thank you so much for this material!

[@dareese6778]

Doris Lessing's "Shikasta". Well done, girl. 🎉❤

[@rogervandusen8361]

what about Zaemyatin's "We."?

[@v1e1r1g1e1]

If no-one recognises your thoughts and feelings, it is as if you never existed. To declare a writer ''most subversive'', one must demonstrate that their works generated significant societal impact.

[@clydeg1]

In what is rapidly becoming a matriarchal western society i think ‘SPARTA’ is very subversive. People might also want to check out Five to Twelve by Edmund Cooper. Interesting view on the prevalence of the pill in the 60’s and where that might lead. It couldn’t be written today.

[@DamienWalter]

Reactionary strawman + reactionary text

[@clydeg1]

@@DamienWalter Well I’m glad you gave it some thought.

[@Alfador42]

The older I get, the more appreciative I am of sci-fi. The ending of this video makes it perfectly clear why. What an inspirational way of putting it into words. I also have to underline how clever it was of you to insert that clip of Flynne sliding off the VR goggles and coming back to our world as you were talking about the idea of gender fluidity. Well played sir. Well played.

[@DamienWalter]

I love video editing because of these happy coincidences. It was on the timeline from the previous section, and totally fitted.

[@Alfador42]

@@DamienWalter You do seem to be enjoying yourself more in the editing department. It was quite obvious during that segment where you mentioned those right leaning sci-fi writers. Keep doing what you do!

[@KatharineOsborne]

I had always wondered why people called Heinlein very right wing, but given I’d only read Stranger in a Strange Land and Have Spacesuit Will Travel (written for kids), and those were his more liberal works, that makes more sense now.

[@frankshifreen]

I hated Dhalgren, couldn’t figure it out- Took workshops with Delaney and loved his other books

[@frankshifreen]

And liked him personally- great guy

[@Globovoyeur]

I don't think Heinlein can be so easily pigeonholed. Starship Troopers can be labeled right-wing, but "If this Goes On..." and its novelization in Revolt in 2100 arguably criticize the right-wing evangelical movement we see today.

[@smartalek180]

Heinlein was a complex guy, WAY deeper & more multi-faceted than most of his reductionist critix OR defenders ever recognize. If u want one pretty good defense of him, check out Spider Robinson's "Rah-Rah-RAH," readily googleable on the web.

[@thomasciarlariello]

Heinlein similar to Dr Seusse went from Roosevelt's WWII racist propaganda to hippie philosophy,

[@CMDR_Verm]

Theodore Sturgeon always springs to mind from his contribution to Harlan Ellison's ''Dangerous Visions''. Humorously titled ''If all men were Brothers, would you let one of them marry your Sister?'' it was a semi-serious look at a planet of human colonists who practised incest, weighing up the pros and cons. Fabulous!

[@swiftmatic]

I got about 200 pages into "Dhalgren" before I just gave up😢

[@stu9000]

Glad to have Damien’s informed and thoughtful point of view on these.

[@psikeyhackr6914]

*The Space Merchants* by Frederick Pohl *Voyage from Yesteryear* by James P Hogan *Daemon and Freedom* by Daniel Suarez

[@streampunksheep]

Damn this is such great news for artists

[@kikodekliko1209]

Well only veterans having cititzenship would be a subversive idea wouldn't it? I am definitely, definitely not in favor of it, but in the current neoliberal capitalist society it would be a bit too fash and therefore subversive? Doesn't matter it happened in pre-modern societies already because we don't currently live in one? Anyway, just a nitpick great video. (Unless subversive is only allowed to have a positive meaning, then yeah, that idea wouldn't be a good or 'cool' thing to implement).

[@DamienWalter]

Reactionary more than subversive. Capitalism will be right there with mass mobilisation when it serves profits.

[@kikodekliko1209]

@@DamienWalter Maybe I am stretching patience your here, and fair enough, but what actually is reactionary? I have heard it been said a lot. The dictionary definition of "opposing social or political progress" doesn't really cut it for me. I mean, the word seems to carry more meaning than just that. I am personally confused by the use of it (not just by you, but in general). Anyway, I agree mass mobilization would not be disfavored by the moneyed classes when it serves profits.

[@DamienWalter]

​@@kikodekliko1209It's literally a reaction, against radicalism, back towards traditional power structures. "Star Wars needs more diversity" is radical. "Put Star Wars back how it was" is reactionary.

[@kikodekliko1209]

@@DamienWalter I understand, but then someone proposing to kill off 99% of humanity in some evil villain storyline would not be a reactionary because that's not necessarily a reaction to progress or a want to return to traditional power structures? (So basically, not all evil is reactionary then?) Again I'm sorry if I engage you too much.

[@DamienWalter]

@@kikodekliko1209 Reactionary isn't a moral judgement. Although it does tend to some violence.

[@thomasciarlariello]

What author will not do for shock value so they go run to Comic Book Legal Defense Fund since I remember how Peter Lorrie voiced Ed Lundt of Long Island was no exaggeration of "Bob!"(1992) where an "Editor Harlan of Ace Comics" complained Bob Newhart.

[@skyeplus]

I'm blessed the _Bull's hour_ was in my mom's library. Funnily enough, I've never finished Andromeda.

[@markshor134]

Well, Andromeda was not subversive at all, but it really showed what communism should be looked like.

[@sergegirard864]

I have long held the belief that science fiction is the modern form of philosophical novel. BTW, has anyone told you that you bear a striking resemblance with Brett Goldstein a.k.a Roy Kent from Ted Lasso? Anyway, I mean this as a compliment. 😊

[@matthewdenckla6567]

Thanks for this video!

[@Bloodfangshows]

Is concept of The Cathedral by Curtis Yarvin a good example of a contemporary description of Consensus Reality?

[@DamienWalter]

The Cathedral is a framing of a consensus reality. MMs framing is designed to make liberal democracy look like authoritarianism.

[@Bloodfangshows]

@@DamienWalter I emphasised it because I’ve heard it interpreted as a model in which academia and media form an implicit consensus towards progress with a monopoly rubber stamped approved thought like The Roman Catholic Church had on Medieval Europe.

[@warmecanic]

In my opinion, Miss, Sheldon, AKA James Triptee Jr, was the queen of the subversives. I wonder if Dhalgren is as complex as the sound and the fury by Faulkner, man that book caused me a headache

[@jaimehudson7623]

Amazing list and am grateful for this video. Some authors I will now go and read soon. But you left out a giant of the subversive subgenre of Sci-Fi: Philip K. Dick, who asked "What is Reality?" way before AI and digital tech in everyday Life!

[@jaimehudson7623]

P.S. I love your orange 'Cat 1' waiting for 'Alice Through the Looking Glass' to arrive soon?

[@DavidVoight-c1v]

I really like your program! 😮 😊 My favorite, and I am a male, is Ursula Lequin's " The Left Hand of Darkness "! Earth Sea Trilogy is wickedly ace as well ! 😀 🤸‍♂️🧙‍♂️🧟🧟‍♂️ No colonization, ever. Interplanetary sovereignty is the answer, not colonization. 🌎🛸🪐🌌🕟🌞 No flags permitted beyond the earth! Settlements affirmative and colonization is a very special big negative no! ☀️🌌☀️🌕☀️

[@ravenshadowz2343]

What is the name of the movie that looks like it might have been out The Hunger Games, or Star Wars that you keep showing through out this video?

[@LukeAdamMiller]

Great video.

[@dreadogastusf3548]

I was enjoying my after-breakfast coffee with some internet when I saw a video about S-F and subversion. Now my reality seems so...fragile that I don't want to get out of my chair.

[@cine9nine]

Subversive art challenges the prevailing culture and/or power structures. Supporters of the prevailing culture or power structure classify those works as reactionary.

[@rickwrites2612]

No. Reactionionary has a static meaning.

[@ivanisaac6128]

Love the video, but the cat steals the show lol

[@DamienWalter]

Yes.

[@wbwarren57]

Great video! Thank you. I really like your mention of the idea of a “consensus reality“. I think Trump is a great example of an anti-narrative being introduced that can cause profound changes in the society and then the behavior and then the values that we have come to expect. Let’s hope it does not take over.

[@sampenny4586]

Okay so where does P K Dick fit? Several of the books you picked you referred to their take on reality and I agree, twisting reality is subversive. But, IMHO, none of these authors matched the body of work that PKD wrote about reality. Sorry, I always gripe when my favourite author is ignored. However, I was really happy to see Andromeda by Yefremov as one of your picks. My mother knew how much I liked science fiction and bought it for me in 1960 or thereabouts. I was 11 at the time and probably didn't pick up on the subversive nature of the book, but for me it was a novel take on the world I knew. A few years later she bought me The Sirens of Titan by Vonnegut another author I felt could have been on your list, but maybe he was just subverting science fiction.

[@KikomochiMendoza]

I find The Left Hand of Darkness to be pretty subversive. Its depiction of non heteronormative relationship is still progressive to this day.

[@TheRealNormanBates]

How is that “progress”? You understand that just because it is different or alien to something traditional or conservative doesn’t mean it’s progress.

[@borgstod]

I fear the modern world is descending towards Vogan poetry. Always know where your towel is.

[@Majesticon]

Alex Smith's ARKDUST

[@thomassmith6232]

That's why books were banned in Fahrenheit 451.

[@STho205]

No...that's why books were edited and changed in 1984. Anything that recorded the past could be used in a constant lying present. Books were burned in F451 specifically for the reasons explained by the fire captain to Montag. Liberalism had led to competing victimhood. Once a group claiming oppression got concessions, then other groups also claimed victimhood demanding concessions, demanding censorship, or rewrites, then the group originally thought the oppressors insisted they too were victims...by the now elevated oppressed.... So eventually the government banned everything like a frustrated mom taking away all the toys. However with video everywhere and advertising....people could be made to simply consume and not think about anything deep. Not be moved by false emotions on a page...all TV became fake reality shows and shallow plays about nothing. Imagine a hit show about nothing.

[@maxschreck4095]

Oh thanks for calling out the reactionary nature of Starship Troopers. I only know the book by reputation but I have the feeling that if I would enjoy it I would only enjoy it as I do Lovecrafts work, namely as a horror story.

[@ThatsMrPencilneck2U]

I thought Starship Troopers was very subtle. I thought it hinted that the Arachnids were the innocent indigenous creatures being forced to fight for their homeland, while our military alliances were capricious. To make the story a fun adventure from a soldier's point of view, the reader needed to indoctrinated into the same fascist mindset that makes a soldier effective. Heinlein might have been a complete fascist, but he never made out the war as being either justified in any way. Personally, I think that speaks volumes.

[@peterhitchmough9243]

The Verhoeven movie is certainly NOT reactionary. (No I haven't read the book, don't shoot me - you're supposed to be progressive like me) . It's a right wing slaughter fest, sure, but any sane viewer sees the propaganda inherent within it We are meant to be reviled, to be at least confused by the gung-ho militarism.

[@bernardocoto8519]

I come from a country that hasn't had an army or armed conflict in 70 years, and I ended up finishing reading Starship Troopers (in my 20s) wanting to enlist and go to war. Thank goodnes it was not possible at the moment...

[@maxschreck4095]

Haha, good for you! @@bernardocoto8519

[@ThatsMrPencilneck2U]

@@mal35m-dw2qv At what threshold can you say any point was intended?

[@jwspiker]

did the bull's hour ever get an English translation?

[@markshor134]

No. Only French, Czech, Bulgarian and Polish

[@patrickday4206]

Unfortunately instead of a warning 1984 has been used as a guide for modern governments 😮

[@PatrickKniesler]

I feel like your version of subversion has run its course now that the current mode of control is completely obliterating the popular conception of true human history, so much so that the subversive concepts you defined are central to deconstructing the non-elite's ability to set firm footing on reality - to our deteiment.

[@joeyj6808]

Heinlein wasn't subversive, unless you consider fascism subversive.

[@chinablue1699]

Crimony !! that hair growing off your left ear is disturbing , do a comb over to the right with it or something.

[@patrickday4206]

Atlas shrugged very right wing. How by government regulating business caused the system to fail

[@STho205]

If using the euro concept of Right and Left wing, then no. Atlas Shugged is free market individual liberalism (original def of the term) Extreme Right Wing controls commerce, industry and farming as much as Extreme Left Wing. Two wings of a similar bird. If Italy, in the 20s to 1944 and Spain or Germany 1930s to 1945 (and beyond for Spain) are ultra right....then they controlled the market and the labor force as much as the Communists in Russia. Both ultras proposed they were workers unions...and both eventually eliminated seperate trade unions in favor of one run by the government...which was also planning the industry and farming.

[@ashley-r-pollard]

One person's subversive is another person's idea of hell. Subversive is in and of itself an insufficient measure of worth. RAH, rah, rah, rah, ranged from left to right for one purpose only; to tell a story. Reading more into a writer than the need to tell their story is a pointless endeavour of retrospective psychoanalysis.

[@ThatsMrPencilneck2U]

Anybody from the 19th Century would tell you that there isn't that much difference between a plantation slave and the average modern hourly worker. Back then, it was call wage slavery.

[@pauljazzman408]

That does understate the brutality of slavery with whipping, raping and taking your children. But working all your life to pay for a house you can barely afford isn’t exactly free, more like being a serfdom perhaps

[@JonathanHartley]

I suppose you would have no objections to me taking your children into slavery then?

[@PerryWagle]

@@pauljazzman408 If a typical household could afford a house these days.

[@ThatsMrPencilneck2U]

@@paulperkins1615 Use a little logic. You have a slave you own for life, an indentured servant you have a 5 year contract with, and some guy you're paying by the hour. They all complain about something hurting. Which one are you going to worry about damaging permanently? If you're a business man, you even give the rental more respect! Back in the 1980's, I worked with a guy on a temp assignment that was so desperate, he kept working after a forklift ran over his foot. Slavery isn't the crappiest thing people do to each other. Wage slavery allows the people who own everything to practice benign neglect like nothing else.

[@ThatsMrPencilneck2U]

@@paulperkins1615 "Legal rights?" If you've invested thousands of dollars in a slave, you don't want to cripple him, before you get your money's worth. An indentured servant needs less consideration. As for some slob that walked in off the street, well, maybe then, you have to worry about legal considerations.

[@the_golden_bough8541]

Ahh, yes, Arthur C. Clarke. The great lover of prebu boys. I'm glad Kubrick kept 100% total control over the writing of the BOOK 2001 and used Clarke as an unwitting rube to help keep the true meaning of the FILM hidden.

[@DamienWalter]

As someone who has investigated that accusation in depth, there is zero evidence to support it.

[@the_golden_bough8541]

I think there is enough evidence to break beyond a reasonable doubt.

[@DamienWalter]

@@the_golden_bough8541 There is no evidence. There is hearsay, which is not evidence. Have you actually spent anytime researching this, or are you just mindlessly repeating things you half read or heard?

[@thomasciarlariello]

Stoned Age 1960s of how my high school professor preferred injectable chemical boosters of sex and drugs to propulsion,

[@the_golden_bough8541]

​@DamienWalter Funny, you should ask. I was first convinced by the word around town. But enough detail was confirmed for me when I met someone, and I kept hush about that issue. With probing questions on my end, I got enough detail to convince me it was true. But your mileage may vary depending on your own bias. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

[@blackdogbarking]

I love subversive stuff in sf and fantasy and that is why it is my fave genre. Most is right wing propaganda though (altruistic arms dealers etc) are we Marxists woke folk nowadays?