The Aeneid: Rome's Founding Myth

[@AkAkAkNeil]

great lecture, and of course now I'm off to buy a copy of The Aeneid!

[@Zxuma]

This guy has so many good and brilliant videos, I feel inundated like a kid in a candy store. Stop it!!!

[@notsocrates9529]

I wish these nice people could bring pencil and paper, then they could write down their comments or questions so they can wait till the end of the lecture. That way they don't have to interrupt the presentation or his stream of thought. It is vexing when they ask questions that can be googled, or make statements to share a "fun fact" to show off that they are erudite. I've watched this twice, this was one of my favorite lectures, thank you for much for not charging money. I learned a lot plus it gave me other topics to explore that I had overlooked.

[@dng88]

To start my viewing but object to your comment. It has been part of features. It is live and sometimes add or not, but better with interaction than not.

[@scotts8531]

Feel lucky you get to see these lectures are online at all. These are not for us, these are for their community first and foremost. You can deal with occasional interruptions.

[@notsocrates9529]

@@scotts8531 It's rude to interrupt and it throws off the rhythm. I noticed that they stopped ruining the streams with their very basic questions or chances to show off trivia. I was raised with manners, you hold questions until the end. Usually your questions will be answered if you sit through the entire presentation. We have this handy dandy things called phones that give us virtually unlimited knowledge. tldr I do not feel lucky, they are making money off of this. This is not charity, it is KZbin.

[@DTM-Books]

I enjoyed this lecture a lot and used a few of its ideas on a paper I am helping to write/edit. Thanks for sharing!

[@Darisiabgal7573]

Well Done John, really enjoyed it.

[@blazinchalice]

I've enjoyed so many of these lectures! Thanks for making them available.

[@aaronchowdhury2706]

The lecturer is great! The weird tangents from the audience not so much. Really wasn’t interested in hearing a whole recount of Watership Down from the old lady in the audience.

[@cam5816]

The Aeneid was inspired by Watership Down bro

[@mikeoglen6848]

Bruh dat just sooo wrong! cuz dat bro Virgil got borned waaay before Watership wuz writ...@@cam5816

[@mikeoglen6848]

Bru, Dis not tru cuz dis buk was writ soooo many year before dan dat...@@cam5816

[@euggiemonad2523]

Love the idea of claiming descent from a mythological figure...this is something we all should do.

[@AJWRAJWR]

Well, everyone can claim Adam then.

[@26beegee]

The movie: Oh Brother Where Art Thou is one of, if not THE best movies of all time! George Clooney is outstanding, T Bone Burnett’s music is award winning and the Odyssey was never portrayed better. I saw it at the theater two nights in a row! I have owned a copy and rewatched it dozens of times. I see new things every time and It never gets old.

[@BigMac-tg4eu]

Such a great teacher!

[@xhentoniovuktilaj7807]

Everything he said was bullshit

[@notstayinsdowns]

@@xhentoniovuktilaj7807 , you are right. It was just a bunch of speculation and no one really knows what happened.

[@betterunderstandingstudios8746]

He really is, I've watched like a dozen lectures in the past week. Learning so much!

[@notstayinsdowns]

@@betterunderstandingstudios8746 , Except it isn't accurate.

[@solaurelian7638]

@@notstayinsdowns whats not accurate about it, can you elaborate?

[@JamesCroney]

Old dude being like "alright I'm out" half way into the rabbit story near the end is fantastic timing.

[@robertsanders7060]

The Mayflower story is a much less appealing founding myth, in my book. A very good talk by a very knowledgeable person. As a 54 year old, it amazes me how much I was taught in my Gymnasium; most of what is in this talk I remember from my school boy days.

[@patricktilton5377]

At the 1 hour mark, the first line of the AENEID is actually its 5th line. The vast majority of translations totally dismiss the actual first four lines. At some point someone (a fool, as far as I'm concerned) thought that Virgil's poem should start with its 5th line, maybe because it begins with the word "Arma" ["arms" or "weapons"]. Those original first 4 lines amounted to Virgil stating that he had already written the Eclogues and the Georgics . . . but NOW of Mars's horrendous ARMS AND THE MAN he sings, etc. By ditching the first 4 lines, we are ignorant of Virgil's reference to weaponry as being not only from 'Mars' but as 'horrendous'. Ille ego, qui quondam gracili modulatus avena / Carmen, et egressus silvis vicina coegi / Ut quamvis avido parerent arva colono, / Gratum opus agricolis; at nunc horrentia Martis / Arma virumque cano, Troiae qui primus ab oris ... The Loeb classics translator, H. Rushton Fairclough, has: "I am he who once tuned my song on a slender reed, then, leaving the woodland, constrained the neighbouring fields to serve the husbandmen, however grasping -- a work welcome to farmers: but now of Mars' bristling Arms I sing and the man who first from the coasts of Troy," etc. I've translated the lines into hexameters thusly: That erstwhile singer was I, with slender straw-pipe accompaniment, Of a song... then, fleeing the forest, compelled the vicinity, To obey the colonial ploughman, however avid he be, A work pleasing to farmers; but now of Mars' horrendous Weapons I sing, and a warrior, who first from the coasts of Troy ... Fairclough translates 'horrentia' as "bristling" and it's not wrong -- from Lat. horreo -ere 'to bristle' -- but the 'Gerundive as adjective' form 'horrendus -a -um' means 'horrible, frightful, dreadful', probably because it's related to the idea of a frightened person's hair standing on end, 'bristling', like HAMLET's Ghost-father mentioning the quills on "the fretful porpentine" [i.e. porcupine]. It is unfortunate that posterity has all-but-forgotten the first 4 lines of Virgil's epic poem.

[@notsocrates9529]

Okay.

[@cam5816]

Damn this guy knows his shit lol, I’m with you now brother!

[@mikeoglen6848]

Bruh, if dis true, it puts a whole new gloss on de whole ting...

[@heathergriffin6552]

I love the analysis of the Dido story at the end. I wonder if (in addition to the echoing the propaganda surrounding Cleopatra and Antonius) if the story is also intended to justify the Roman conquest of Carthage. Aeneas and Dido's union does not produce an heir. Since Dido dies, would Aeneas have been considered her heir? Carthage is Rome's natural domain and if only the passion driven, irrational curse of Dido hadn't made the Carthaginians so difficult, they could have just peacefully joined the empire instead of forcing Rome to salt the fields.

[@loveroftrueandlastingpeace]

Thanks for these wonderful lectures

[@sorrysirmygunisoneba]

I loved this lecture, so glad I came across it before reading the book. Can you advise on the best version/translation please? I had a Collins classic but it was near impossible to read.

[@glenn-younger]

Soooo many parallels in ancient history to today with people wanting to create their own origin stories that proclaim one side as the hero and the other side the villain. And vice versus. Politics and war. Propaganda. Politics and war. Propaganda. And so the cycle continues. When will we EVER get tired enough of it to try to work together? Aaaaannyway, thank you for this presentation. This was highly entertaining!

[@andrewisjesus]

Excellent

[@sebolddaniel]

I have been to Segesta. There are three beautiful Greek templea there. There are Greek temples all over Sicilly, Agrigento having fhe most notably gorgeous sandstone temples.

[@4everseekingwisdom690]

Always found it interesting that Remus is sumer spelled backwards

[@MendTheWorld]

Very interesting lecture, with the weirdest Comments section I’ve ever seen. It seems that mythological narratives still hold sway over the human mind, far more than I could ever have imagined.

[@rubenjames7345]

Damn, I was just going to say, "really interesting", and look, it's already in the first comment. Very impressive lecture.

[@martinnyberg9295]

26:05 I just learned why the pope - Pontifex Maximus - wears red shoes. 🤔😃😄

[@juliogadelhaparente]

Forget about people who say the comments are dumb ir anything...Love the discussion

[@AwakeAtTheWheel]

Which movie is it that he keeps referencing? I’d like to watch it. Great work by the way, I’ve been binging these lectures for a few weeks now.

[@MegaMayday16]

You are such a blessing

[@jasonkrynicky3170]

23:30 that is a solid example of meme magic.

[@klausbrinck2137]

1:14:00 Theseus went to Hades in order to steal Persephone, the wife of god Hades. With his mephistophelian friend Periokos (the one, that manipulated Theseus to dare such a crazy adventure, "because you aren´t a king anymore, and being a politician is boring"), they asked Hades (the oldest brother of the king of the gods Zeus!) to hand his wife over, and he answered "OK, take a seat, I´ll go and ask her opinion about you stealing her, and if it is really her will to leave me (for a single night), and be Periokos´ wife (for a single night)". So Theseus and Periokos sat down, on some couches, but didn´t know that those were the "couches of oblivion", so, they soon forgot their aim, and even their own identities (and theis butts fusioned with the couches, becoming one ;-) ... Some years later, it was Hercules´ turn to visit Hades, and fight against Cerberus, the hell-dog/guardian. He noticed Theseus, and with his supernatural strenght, he tore Theseus away of the "couch of oblivion" (so, he didn´t sit there "forever", but when Aeneas was there, it seemed at least like Theseus will never be free again), and brought him back to earth, where Theseus now regained his memories and identity, so, being liberated. Hercules liked Theseus, who he´s come to meet as a small child: When having visited Theseus´childhood town, his sword fell into a deep, narrow well, and someone proposed to let down a small child on a rope, to bring the sword back... Theseus volunteered, but Hercules didn´t believe that any child could ever hold his massive sword, or even move it a single inch, for that matter, cause that would be an almost impossible task even for many adults. Theseus still made it, and Hercules was stunned, foretelling a bright future for small Theseus. Theseus would later become a hero and the king of Athens, but soon give up his legislative powers to his former just-subjects and now-citizens (while keeping his judicial and executive powers), essentially banning kingship (for the first time in history) and forming the first version of the athenian democracy. Second, he put himself under trial, for all the petty conflicts he has fought shortly before (in order to enlange the city of Athens), while the people were still unwilling to believe, that their just-king isn´t one anymore, and now he even demands for a punishment for his deeds. Theseus, on the other side, wanted to showcase by that, that in this new form of government, all, even the most powerfull, are equally subject to the law, or else, the democratic experiment won´t work. After all, Theseus´ credibility was so huge, that they after all accepted his choises, and the founding of democracy. Finally, the court found that Theseus is guilty to a pretty low degree, cause "Athens (as every other city) has the right to pursuit greatness" and so, conquering the independent surrounding villages and incorporating them to Athens was false, but still righteous to some degree. So, Theseus at least wasn´t convicted to go to prison (manslaughter but no murder, so, got shortly exiled instead of getting jailed). Of course, people that wanted to bad-mouth Theseus, claimed, that since Theseus was still the supreme judge in Athens, he has used his influence and connections to reach this favorable decree, and at least avoid prison... ;-) Third, Theseus forged the "Attic see-bound", so that Athenians don´t trade anymore as isolated traiders, but in the name of Athens, with norms, standards, a trade fleet and secured rights, an actual historically existing trade-organization, that would bring Athens all its future-wealth, what is historically also well documented. This was a small example of ancient greek mythology. Sounds more like history, but it´s only mythology... Except of democracy and the Attic see-bound, that really existed.

[@stickemuppunkitsthefunlovi4733]

So it was always based on a dodgy judiciary..

[@klausbrinck2137]

@@stickemuppunkitsthefunlovi4733 As said this is mythology, like Thor and his Hammer, but for adults... This was the first case of democracy, and it took several hundred years to reach its peak-form (from 5th century BC) we know today of (have u ever heard of a monarch, who´s gonna give ALL his power away in a single step???)... Little is known about the centuries before the 5th BC, but this myth provides some insight. Greek myths are often like that. As Prometheus (creator of human race) was brought to Caucasus, to be chained on a rock, by Hepaistos´ unbreakable chains, There were two less known dieties holding Prometheus captive. It was Kratos and Via, or in other words, the state-violence (in greek or german, or, in english, the state authority-monopole). And this is a myth about a time shortly after humans were created, so it refers to a time (according to their beliefs back then) of 5-10 thousand years ago, but still, the Greeks thought that humans 5-10 thousand years ago were surely already concerned about topics as the dillemas that state and its authority-monopole bear within... That goes well beyond the travels of Aeneas and his Moses-like/copy-adventures. The Aeneid promotes the virtues of Rome, but still, these virtues were hollow, and the Greeks wouldn´t stop to see them as barbarians, till 100-200 years after they´ve been conquered by them (when they themselves have become Romans)... Those were the actual darkest ages of humanity.

[@stickemuppunkitsthefunlovi4733]

@@klausbrinck2137 Prometheus, the light bringer, held down by state violence. Who'd of guessed hey lol

[@klausbrinck2137]

@@stickemuppunkitsthefunlovi4733 The Greeks loved the state, or else they wouldn´t have invented it, and sure they were right... But still, they were pretty aware of the risks, and the duality of chances it offers. Everything similarly powerfull has to get tested and regulated. Internet is as disrupting as the "state" back then. Where is the discourse about it? Citizens are even too lazy to control the state.

[@stickemuppunkitsthefunlovi4733]

@@klausbrinck2137 I agree. Nationhood is a double edged sword but the pros outweigh the cons. Who wants to live in the wilderness alone and unprotected.

[@Harryjay6]

"At this point Rome has beaten off Pyhrrus" Talk about a Pyhrric Victory...

[@notsocrates9529]

Yes, dad. Hence the term.

[@Harryjay6]

@@notsocrates9529 don't you understand that it's a hand job joke?

[@andrewsuryali8540]

To be fair to Pyrrhus, both times he had his "Pyrrhic victory" he completely destroyed the Roman army. His problem wasn't that he kept getting massive losses but that the Greeks who had invited him into Italy refused to replenish his armies. The Romans didn't magically have higher regenerative abilities - the Greek cities could easily have beaten them in numbers with proper mobilization. Pyrrhus lost his own side's support because he was behaving like a typical Macedonian diadochi king while those cities were still democracies built on the pre-Alexandrian model. The Greeks of Magna Graecia realized too late that they had more in common with Republican Rome than they did this supposedly Greek warlord, so when he got weakened they took every means available to send him back home. Once Pyrrhus crossed back to his homeland and a people used to the diadochi's shenanigans, he was perfectly able to become a successful king again until his life was accidentally cut short by a roof tile while besieging a city (a siege he technically already won).

[@aprylvanryn5898]

​@Harryjay6 for what it's worth, I liked ur joke

[@Harryjay6]

@@aprylvanryn5898 thanks :)

[@astrobullivant5908]

Was Virgil writing the Aeneid because Romulus had been "canceled" by the year 30 BC?

[@sparrowparas7156]

Dear Centre Place, I greatly appreciate the depth of your scholarship. One thing my studies have shown me over and over is that history is greatly altered (not just NOW but also throughout all the intervening ages... lies added appropriate to concerns of the particular age). But all that historical alteration follows a single formula which I can't express here as it depends on knowing the radically different True World History Paradigm.. basically Judeo-whites are glorified into Heroes and everyone else, especially Greeks, Roman and French (who are one humanistic race in their origins) is subtly or not so subtly demeaned, ever more and more through history. Caesar (like Alexander before him) cast a shadow of greatness much more extensive than is told today. He was truly beloved and a leader with the peoples' interests in mind. He was killed by slimy assassins and would be dictators who in fact did destroy the Republic as intended. Caesar had to be made to look bad which is very tough with 'saintly' characters like Alexander, Jesus and Caesar who were in a Real Sense above reproach. They offered caesar the dictatorship twice and he, wisely, declined it publicly. It was his nature and perhaps he understood it was a trap. Had he accepted the dictatorship when presented it would give the evil infiltrating 'senators' a clear reason to kill him. As it was, the assassinated him anyways of course. But in the intervening 2000 years it has been their task and their kin (who are in fact in charge of much of the world and US dem party today) to slur the perfect image of Caesar... by group chanting through history that he wanted to be a 'god' 'dictator'. HE MOST ASSUREDLY DID NOT but saying so Justifies the slimy senate and their horrific actions against both HIM and his son ISOS (yes.. it's who it sounds like.. in Rome he was called Caesarion, in Egypt, ISOS... LONG and VITAL story). Today's assassins/cullers of everything good go back to these senators and earlier. Their never ending mission is to make all the True Human Leaders of history look just as slimy, low, ruthless, conscienceless, and murderous as they Are Themselves Today. ALL rulers today, in so called royalty and Most political positions come from one inbred family (with many names) which I call the Yorksalem Bloodline after it's angl-american last branches. They must make caesar look LIKE THEM. They don't want anyone to remember that once, not to long ago, there were in fact amazing Good Hereditary Lines of True Leaders who represented Their People and Their interest with wisdom and generosity. Today's group is a seperate species especially and Parasite themselves on Everyone and Everything... to name one of their 'secret humorous references' YOU DON'T KNOW WHO THEY ARE AT ALL, THEY'RE THE ROCK(AFELLER)ET MAN, BURNING ROCKET FUEL OFF EVERYONE.

[@garykeenan8591]

You need therapy and meds. Your paranoid fantasies have taken over your life with lies and nonsense.

[@kamion53]

@25:18 red boots in imitation of Aeneas? I thought the red boots original were an attribute of Etruscan kingship.

[@natmeyy5675]

Confusing why actual History isn't taught in schools and we are left to separate fact from fiction ,myth, from legend !

[@alanpennie8013]

Battlestar Galactica is The Aeneid in Space. Which is why the characters have names from Greek mythology. Except for Adama (who's name presumably means feminine Adam).

[@coolwilliam6424]

Bears, Beets, Battlestar Galactica!!!

[@andrewsuryali8540]

Adama is derived from Greek adamas (unconquerable). Battlestar Galactica's story is derived from The Book of Mormon. That's why they're the 12 Colonies of Kobol (Kolob is the star closest to God in older Brighamite Mormon theology)

[@dng88]

This is home made myth.

[@dctwright]

Choosing a random lecture to comment upon. I'm an atheist who didn't figure out you aren't until a dozen lectures in. My respect. 🙏

[@Leman.Russ.6thLegion]

No. The she wolf is 100% ancient. I have multiple attested roman coins with the she wolf on them, both early and late republic.

[@golgumbazguide...4113]

Explore Golgumbaz,Deccan india!

[@shdwbnndbyyt]

Note that archaeologists have discovered that there are TWO ancient cities of "Ur", one in the north of Syria and one in Southeast Iraq.... So the northern Ur, which is northeast of Haran could be the original home of Abram.

[@christopheb9221]

link to source?

[@joeredman569]

Cool.

[@Scimitar620]

I just wrote an essay on this book

[@sparrowparas7156]

In Greek 'Myth' from which the word is derived, is call 'Mythistorima' or Myth-History. I'm not sure of the etymology of the prefix or word Myth. I suspect it doesn't mean what we think of as 'myth'. I suspect it means something like 'ancient' or 'legendary' or 'old' or 'pre-' or 'aproximate'. In other words they knew it was reality that had been a bit lost or distorted. My theory of most myths is the following which has a parallel today in the erasure of Modern Inconvenient Truths. A true story, which doesn't suit those in power, is just too widely known to be erased. What to do? You start altering bits and pieces of it...and create MULTIPLE confusing versions. In time, you hope the awkward reality will be forgotten or twisted enough. "NO NO NO, it's not Aga Memmnon (general Memnon, an egyptian) it's AGAMEMMNON, a Greek name that btw doesn't sound like any other greek name (true alteration). Paris Sparrow

[@garykeenan8591]

It's easy to look up etymologies. Myth doesn't mean what you imagine. Your "theory" is based on what? What myths have you studied in their original languages? Most power elites rely on some kind of mythology justifying their power, whether it is religion, "American exceptionalism", racism, divine right, or descent from heroes and semi-divine figures. Ancient myths generally originate in pre-literate societies or folk cultures, relying on oral transmission which always changes content by its very method, not by some censoring authority or propaganda campaign. There is a huge amount of literature about myth, oral traditions, and cultures you ought to study seriously before you come up with more ideas.

[@AJWRAJWR]

No, mythology isn't some top-down conspiracy to control the masses. Guess again.

[@emilbordon1329]

I’d like to give a shout out to the attending audience.

[@suelingsusu1339]

🙏🙏🙏🙏👏👏👏👏👌👌👌👌👌

[@Dsquareddyson]

At about 30 minutes in, is there any evidence at all that this is how Genesis was written, or are you coming up with all of it. I notice that start that part of the discussion with assuming this is how Genesis would have been put together, but without citing any source supporting the fact that your narrative isn’t completely made up.

[@Dsquareddyson]

“There would have been all these different founders and origin stories”… would there have been? What are you basing this off of that allows you to speak with such confidence?

[@peterkerruish8136]

Surely you could get a decent microphone to the audience... piss poor!.

[@cavemancaveman5190]

Modern interpretations not what ancients called these places.

[@4everseekingwisdom690]

7 kings of Rome, 7 hills , 7 churches, Samsons 7 locks of hair, innana and the 7 gates of the underworld.. always 7 because they are an mystery school teaching devices

[@danpatrick9080]

I'll bet 99% of people would say the battle of Troy is in the iliad

[@emilbordon1329]

Do the founding myth of the USA. Please.

[@ducdejoyeuse]

Your map is incorrect as the Germanic tribes were the invention of Hitler, the area you mapped was and is still called by French and Spanish as Alemagne. This is because the tribe there were called The Allamani and Alemagne is the correct historical term, for The Germ of Many

[@chambsy]

Wow, the one lady sure likes to talk. Maybe let the teacher teach. Shhhhh.

[@deborahtrapper7421]

Be nice.

[@notstayinsdowns]

why do these people have to veer off and l13 about the Bible where there is no evidence for saying it was organized later?

[@FAMA-18]

The term "Emperor" in Roman times did not mean "general." Instead, it referred to the highest ruler, the head of state, with absolute authority over the Roman Empire. Here's a breakdown of the terms: * Emperor: The supreme ruler of the Roman Empire, with absolute power and authority. * General: A high-ranking military officer who commands an army or a significant part of it. While it was possible for an emperor to also be a skilled general, the two titles were not interchangeable. The emperor's primary role was to govern the empire, while a general's primary role was to lead the military. I’m sorry, Professor, but if you cannot break down a lecture in its right proper meaning, then you should not be doing these type of lectures, perhaps you’re not qualified for it.

[@Johnny95648]

I do not understand MF

[@idakardhiqi6176]

Karte von PELLASGIA 🇦🇱🦅🇦🇱

[@bluesky6985]

Rome = Red Thread line of the tribe of Judah. Hebrew

[@felixgelukonstantinescu4751]

Pagan tradition, reliable, biblical, no.

[@felixgelukonstantinescu4751]

Romulus was a descendant of Aeneas.

[@felixgelukonstantinescu4751]

only t strong remains.

[@yuntakukai1002]

How can one take seriously anyone with hair like that?