The Amazing QHY268C Colour Camera for Astrophotography

[@user-dz3ph7dl4m]

you can pump the gain on these cmos cameras due to the low read out noise. This camera is improved further still due to non-existent amp glow (due to being rear illuminated sensor) and also in this case well depth (which alot of the other cmos' cameras don't have). It actually performs better using high gain over low gain (0.7e- vs 3.5e- readnoise). The Pro in the QHY series really does mean for Pro's. The fibre optic ability allows no data loss over many many metres (to the computer from the camera - unlike usb). Not needed for even the most serious amateur - non Pro version all the way.

[@praxxtv]

same is true with the QHY600. They are both fantastic. I hope they release a 268M as well for the more amateur market. Most of the "pros" (most are researchers) are slowly looking at switch to CMOS with these cameras being released.

[@praxxtv]

by the way; if anyone reading this knows the meaning of the "-K" industrial grade sensor both of these cameras use, please do reply. QHY is vague about it on their website. perhaps fewer defects over the years? what's the physical difference between C and K?

[@jt-cosmic-42]

@@praxxtv you'll be happy, there is a 268M coming!

[@jt-cosmic-42]

Yeah you can definitely pump the gain up if you need on a slower scope, but the read noise is so low all around I also use it at gain 0 on a RASA with great results.

[@TheWonkyAstronomer]

It’s not a fair test because the image quality is improved by the background music.

[@DylanODonnell]

You got me

[@howardbond1583]

Dylan. Thanks for the video review of this camera, just enough technical stuff and the pic speaks for itself. Your son’s drum roll was a perfect accompaniment. Take care of your arm! You don’t want any infections at the time. Enjoy your time with family & stay safe. I’m going to check for any spare change in the sofs before in call High Point. Take Care!

[@volens31]

Nice cam! Your vids are never long enough....they're over in like a second! Probably cos they're so enjoyable.....loving the proud Dad moment, I get that. He's a great drummer. Cheers Dylan 👍😁

[@DylanODonnell]

He’s getting good !

[@heehawcowboy5157]

Your content is very well put together. Keeps me watching. Keep up the good work.

[@saahilsinha5558]

0:24 bold of you to assume I can buy new equipment 👀- great video, loving the content :)

[@alphatango4447]

Wish I had more then 2 kidneys

[@Aerostar509]

than?

[@alphatango4447]

@@Aerostar509 I could sell the spare and by this expensive camera.

[@juangh85]

I'm really happy to live the astronomy through the eyes of others. I can't get that amount of money to buy a camera...I want to get that to buy, just a simple telescope. But, it is really nice to enjoy (a lot!) the proccess and the results that you share. Thank you!

[@eyesoftexasskywatch]

Thanks for the review. Way out of my price range! I saved for 6 months for the ASI294MC-PRO which was only 1k USD. Clear skies!

[@Astrolavista]

Thanks for the video Dylan. Even though I will never ever ever own a camera of this calibre, it's still good to see what a top of the range camera can produce. The answer seems to be an insanely deep and clean image for barely any time using a slow scope! What would even happen if you stuck this camera on the RASA?

[@astrobeardimage]

I've been looking into this sensor for my next camera. Thanks for great timing. Have a good one all! Clear Skies

[@TwoPancakes]

lol i dont need toxic plants to feel like im being bitten by a thousand mosuitoes, i am being bitten by a thousand mosquitoes while stargazing

[@DennisCarmody]

Thanks Dylan. I'm looking at getting the ZWO version of this sensor and that was a helpful video!

[@DanielNimmervoll]

Which readout mode did you use for DeepSky and a dark sky?

[@bill_astro_music]

This is our moment :-)

[@iandobbin8068]

Wow 😳 Cameras are really developing. Great video 👍

[@alphatango4447]

Ending was epic 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@grantmclauchlan2843]

Can I try it out after you've finished with it.

[@griffith500tvr]

Not able to download video 😣

[@DylanODonnell]

🤷🏽‍♂️ super weird .. try changing domain to youtubepp.com

[@allenkemp3124]

Great job, beautiful photo! Looks like it could bend the hell out of the optics train.

[@DylanODonnell]

Thx mate!

[@chrisn.6477]

Love the sign off

[@TheUrbanAstronomer]

Great drum roll... and image and camera 😀👍

[@DylanODonnell]

Hehe thanks mate :)

[@christophergemeinhardt3404]

Delicious camera and result! Could you try it on one of your RASAs? Guess that would be a splendid combo.

[@DylanODonnell]

Would be ideal !

[@alainmaury5941]

For 1000 dollars more, the zwo 6200, 60 megapixels, really a revolution in astronomical imaging. QHY has also the QHY600 with the same chip, but 600 dollars more expensive. With a RASA 11 it's a killer combination giving 1.2"/pixel and 2.2x3.3° on the sky.

[@EFRollercoaster]

I really hope that ZWO will make a mono version of the 2600. People have been asking for a APS-C mono camera for quiet a while now.

[@alainmaury5941]

@@EFRollercoaster 6200 is not 2600. The 6200 I have are monochrome.

[@EFRollercoaster]

@@alainmaury5941 I know. 26MP vs 62MP. But rumors say that Sony will release a mono version of the IMX571.

[@GalacticHunter]

That Lagoon looks mighty juicy for such low integration time! If I ever visit AU remind me to not only avoid insects but also plants. Can the air sting you too?

[@DylanODonnell]

Haha! Well we do have dust storms and fire tornados with their own lightning so there’s that

[@alphatango4447]

Impressive image of the nebula 😍😍😍😍

[@DylanODonnell]

Thx!

[@Nottsboy24]

A nice piece of kit Dylan 👌🔭

[@yobb89]

so bewteen the 3 cameras, the pro gives you support for dual fiber optics , you get 300 meters transmition distance and more realiablity then usb . the "early bird " model is the same as the pro but it has the fiber ports disabled for some reason ? "pay more money to unlock in firmware update" ? i'm guessing the pro will be released later once they tweak the firmware and the early bird or pre orders will get the free firmware upgrade to pro . and then you have the standard with just usb 3.0 the "PhotoGrapic'' ( they spelt it wrong) ,which is pretty typical ,most people will only need usb 3.0 , i doubt there will be any transfer speed increase between 2x fiber optics and usb 3.0 given that you are probably limited to exposure time and hard drive speed , limitations of the camera. some people run their cables into their house or warm room and don't do remote access via a second computer so that is a plus side for someone buying the pro version . you can buy the pcie 2x fiber optics card to install in your pc from your retailer for this camera serries

[@AstroQuest1]

Awesome review - a hell of a camera. If I have an extra 3K sitting around I'll send away for it. Funny you should mention stuff on back order, I have been waiting over a month for a Quark. I think you should do some thermite experiments on that toxic plant.

[@gavin5326]

God damn so beautiful. I still haven't gotten a chance to photograph a nebula with my QHY183C 5hat I got in APRIL

[@DylanODonnell]

Do it !

[@gavin5326]

It's not that I don't want to, the weather has been the worst in a long time and I keep having guiding issues :(

[@AstroForumSpace]

You're on a roll Dylan, good on you mate. Will be wearing your StarLink shirt next week in a video, LOL.

[@DylanODonnell]

Haha thanks for your support !

[@AstroForumSpace]

@@DylanODonnell of course I'll change to my own shirt quickly, I mean it's StarLink, haha. But will put a link to your channel and merch in the description, hope you don't mind. Clear skies.

[@lachezarkrastev7123]

I do not have the banding with the ZWO ASI 2600 MC

[@DylanODonnell]

Lachezar Krastev this is a heavy stretch, you won’t see anything otherwise .. also banding will depend on USB traffic setting if it’s readout noise.

[@lachezarkrastev7123]

@@DylanODonnell this is without any darks or flats: www.astrobin.com/full/7sfqgi/0/

[@nishantpatil61]

Nice Vid Dylan. And what a coincidence, I was on the call with Bintel placing my order and was asking for "Dylan Discount", and your video pops up. Thanks for the discount. cheers.

[@DylanODonnell]

Haha!

[@GaryMCurran]

Dylan, earlier this year Stace showed of the Altair Astro 268 camera. Are they using the same sensor? If I recall, that AA camera was like only $1,400 USD. Whoops, sorry, my mistake, that was the 269 camera.

[@richardhurst1969]

Hi Dylan. Just got my 268c and was wondering if you could give me a good gain and offset value to start off at. Will be trying wizard nebula first.

[@AdirondackAstronomy]

More money? When did we get that during this pandemic? I really like those results from that camera. Time to search the couch cushions and the cat seats for some extra change.

[@DylanODonnell]

Adirondack Astronomy heh must be an Australian thing

[@shaunozs1ra92]

So what’s the difference between the Early Bird and the Photographic?

[@BoulderMatt82]

How does this compare to the ZWO ASI2600mc pro? Their specs look very similar.

[@DylanODonnell]

Same or similar sensor I think.

[@steveperry814]

Dylan, what are the spacers for the RASA11 and not using any filters other than Celestron’s Light Pollution filter?

[@alexgti9345]

Hey Dylan! and thanks for that informative video about this camera. I just love your sarcastic sense of humor, a real wave of freshness in that astronomical world (or universe should I say) ;-) Nonetheless do you think there would be substantial differences in the final image between this QHY camera and ...well, let's say the ZWO ASI2600 MC? Their tech specs are slightly different, which is confusing because with the same sensor I would have expected the Full Well Capacity to be the same (for instance). But as all my equipment is ZWO-centered, I know pretty much which brand I am going to go for.. Anyway, congrats to your kid for the drums, be sure sure you will eventually do more gardening again if your wife decides it, and sorry for my approximative english which may sound odd to you.. But hey, that's not my native language, and we are all going to die. Cheers from France !

[@DylanODonnell]

Thanks! Couldn’t say without testing both.. I’m sure anyone would be happy with either :)

[@DanielNimmervoll]

I testet both cameras... I made a detailed video about it. This will go online on my channel on August 30th. But it's in German.

[@j1will]

@@DanielNimmervoll I bought the QHY268c instead of the ZWO ASI2600 due to reading on the specs and implementation differences. Did you find I make the right choice or not?

[@DanielNimmervoll]

John Williams yes 👍 I also decided on the QHY

[@AnakChan]

Mono version?

[@smitty8431]

How do I find out what object I have in a photo that I've taken and forgot what part of the sky I was looking at? I know I'm an idiot but name-calling isn't going to point me in the right direction. I've tried to find it on stargazing phone apps and no luck 😡

[@DylanODonnell]

Plate solving :) see my last video and try nova.astrometry.net

[@smitty8431]

@@DylanODonnell Thanks man!

[@davidaylsworth8964]

I’m all in for removing trees! My conscience makes me grow little ones that I plant in random places. Looks like a nice camera that I’ll never afford though.

[@Mistr_A]

Would there be much difference in image quality between the three sizes?

[@victormultanen1981]

adorable specs

[@makkyd123]

i ditched my edgehd reducer because of terrible chroma. I see some here as well, perhaps the same issue.

[@petetube111]

Great vid and nice pic. Is that really 146mm of back focus from the FR? Doesn’t look like it.

[@scottfarndell2434]

I hate being colour blind. Gave up deep sky astrophotography after a few years because what’s the point when you can’t colour-correct the final stacked without help. Still love looking at others’ photos - great job Dylan.

[@astrogerard2022]

Hi Dylan. I noticed some severe blue tinging on a lot of the stars. Can you tell what was causing this please?

[@DylanODonnell]

Could be atmospheric dispersion or optics in the corners.

[@lachezarkrastev7123]

Dylan, may I ask you a question - if you want to buy a mono CCD camera these days which it would be. I am using CMOS, but I want to try the good old CCDs ... do you think it would be wise to spend lets say 5k USD for a CCD? Thank you!

[@DylanODonnell]

For science .. yes CCD great.. but if photography is the goal I think CMOS lineups are giving way for bang for buck this year.

[@lachezarkrastev7123]

@@DylanODonnell thanks Dylan ... I do not know what science we can make from our backyards :)

[@jamesf9829]

@@lachezarkrastev7123 google 'How to Participate in Astronomy Research' from iau.org, found by googling 'citizen science astronomy'

[@ezza2fly]

Nice! How are the Starlink T sales going? Is there a link to any info on your allskye cam setup?

[@DylanODonnell]

5 trolls / Starlink fans so far :) I haven’t built the allsky cam yet .. watch this space!

[@ezza2fly]

@@DylanODonnell Too funny! I have the popcorn ready for the allsky vid. No pressure though. ;-) I have plans to do one as well, but its in the big backlog of things to do, maybe, one day...

[@DrGkill777]

Does the tilt on your image is due to the camera weight ? :)

[@jamiboothe]

QHY,, my arch nemesis. I just bought two cameras and neither works with SGP. Maybe I should go for the third time is a charm trick and give them another 3K. I`m sure they will work someday when the bugs are fixed. Anyway, another great vid. I get a bit jealous of your southern skies, because I want to see the universe upside down and get my mind blown.

[@DylanODonnell]

Thanks! I’m using quite a lot of qhy and sgp and all working well. The older stuff definitely had some driver quirks but all good on the new gear.

[@jamiboothe]

@@DylanODonnell Its certainly something I am doing wrong, but I will take another stab at it in a week or so. I have a tendency to miss the obvious when I am frustrated. Thanks for the straight forward channel, I learn quite a bit from here.

[@jamiboothe]

Yep, it was completely my fault about the cameras not connecting.

[@scottrk4930]

Alright , 21 Frames at 180s Exposure begs the "forever" question...how much is enough ? Your final Image is better than anything I'm currently producing and yet I'm intimidated by those who expose for several hours for each Filter Type and accumulate 25+ hrs of total Integration time . Is there a realistic cutoff point to be able to generate a "good" photo . Is this a Topic for a future Video maybe ?

[@DylanODonnell]

Yeh aim for 30-40 exposures .. whatever the length. After that the return on investment is barely noticeable :)

[@schwags1969]

Well done!!

[@michal_king478]

man I need that camera :D my budget does not allow that at all tho. Looking at the price tag... the 600d will do

[@cstargazer1]

We are not all going to die and tell me what cmos camera is great for both deep space and planetary imaging

[@adarshsr8015]

A picture of fighting dragon nebula which was took by you is posted on 'youresa' Instagram page...Just saw it!😁

[@DylanODonnell]

Thx for the heads up! An old one too heh

[@BryanKennedyPhotography]

Hi Dylan, could you use this camera on a Rasa 8 or 11?

[@DylanODonnell]

Probably more appropriate for the 11 as the profile is chunky but it’s still cylindrical so is ideal shape for rasa type setups yeh.

[@BryanKennedyPhotography]

@@DylanODonnell Thank you Dylan

[@carltanner9065]

Silly boy...mate!!!! Thermite is great for removing those pesky plants that the better half wants removed :) And, you can play dramatic music whilst you do it :) Just make sure you film it and post it here for all of us to enjoy :P BTW, great piccie you got with the 268C. Lots of detail!!! Especially for 63 minutes worth of subs.

[@anne-mareemccomb924]

I'm confused why you would support high point scientific when they won't post to me in Central Victoria. I've tried on numerous occasions and just get the no shipping available to that address and want me to return to shopping. Do other people get deliveries to Australia?

[@DylanODonnell]

Use Bintel for aus :)

[@Hoireabard]

Is this the best camera for astrophotographers?

[@Projectoxcart]

My friend Guy has one of these for Asteroid Observing QHY42

[@Projectoxcart]

He is Guy Wells Northolt Branch Asteroid Observers Northolt London

[@bombsaway6340]

Now I understand why you are an astronomer, a son with a drum set, you’re not getting any sleep at night, so.....

[@DylanODonnell]

Yep. I’m an insomniac, and an astronomer.. so it’s all good.

[@ChucksAstrophotography]

Wow, your arm looks nasty. 😀 QHY wanted to send me that camera, but I wanted the mono-version and ended up with nothing, LOL. What was I thinking?

[@DylanODonnell]

Hehe gift horse... mouth .. something something .. :)

[@praxxtv]

no mono of the 268 sadly! Really a gap in the market. They have hinted at a new one in late 2020/2021 with a monochrome APS-C or 4/3

[@ChucksAstrophotography]

@@praxxtv I wanted the QHY600

[@GalacticHunter]

Omg I almost wanted to beg for the 600 Mono too but was too scared to receive a negative answer so I didn't 😂

[@ChucksAstrophotography]

@@GalacticHunter lol, I got the negative answer. They said they were out of stock.

[@wongelfski4681]

Its a good camera im more pumped about the 2400

[@HighBoss]

Until you said you had to send the camera back I thought they were sending these out to reviewers to keep for some reason. For a few minutes there I was straight up thinking I need to get into the astronomy youtube game haha.

[@Steve_The_Ignorant_Astronomer]

Dylan , Nice camera.... You drive a Tesla you can afford that QHY..... Question , do you know anything about Altair Capture? I just got a Altair camera and it has tht software that you can use. The camera also works with Sharpcap but wanted to try it with the Altair capture. I just cant figure it out .. I wrote Altair and they said it works the same as Sharpcap , WHAT !!!!! Think they been eating a lot a vegimate .. Anyway is you know how it works maybe you can do a video on it ,,, I wrote Traver but he has not gotten back to me. Plus I am not sure I like the Altair I bought it for planetery and not sure it was what I needed to get. I ordered the ZWO 290mc pro in June and did not want to wait anymore so I bought the Altair 385c , not sure if the pixels are small enough for what I need.. Not happy . STAY SAFE Steve

[@DylanODonnell]

No idea about Altair sry.. Sharpcap has some nice features, but Firecapture is the better program for the working planetary photographer I feel. you want larger pixels for planets generally, smaller for DSOs and wide field.

[@Steve_The_Ignorant_Astronomer]

@@DylanODonnell Thanks for getting back to me Looking forward to videos

[@robsbackyardastrophotograp8885]

Nice work! If only I had the cash...

[@NewMainer]

You got my sub at “And remember, everything is meaningless and we’re all going to die.” lol

[@DylanODonnell]

Ryan McBride hehe come for the dick jokes. Stay for the positive nihilism.

[@cyberblitz]

Hmm, yea. Thanks for another great video. Just wanted to point out that High Point Scientific are not able to sell me QHY products "due to dealer constraints". Living in Australia sucks sometimes because we get screwed on prices on things like this. Case in point: the Celestron C14 Edge in Australia is $14,000 AUD, in the US it's $8,000 AUD ($6,000USD), that's a whopping $6,000AUD difference. I could fly to US (Flights to US are about $2,000AUD) to buy this telescope, enjoy a holiday there for a few days, and I'll still save money, even with import taxes!!!

[@GiantOfTheShire]

might want to linear fit the blue channel.. just saying

[@arturogalvanmd]

As usual amazing video (the drum roll was terrific too). Since I’m a dermatologist if you are still in pain feel free to drop me a line. Bye

[@DylanODonnell]

Thanks! I’m using a cortisol cream of some kind .. it’s day 9 but I think it’s finally going down!

[@arturogalvanmd]

Dylan O'Donnell in the future use an oral antihistamine (many are available as over the counter drugs) to calm the itch and reach your GP to get some oral prednisone. Topical steroids are effective only in occlusion and using strong molecules (like clobetasol), and are definitely not preferred in this kind of strong rashes. Clear sk...ins. Lol.

[@BrianH1313]

More money? Who has money? Interesting Dylan.

[@TheWonkyAstronomer]

Maybe he has shares in Zoom.

[@PafMedic]

The Wonky Astronomer ,Im a FF/Medic..Im Been A Happy Freaking Camper As Bad As I Hate To Say It,lol..I Live In a Rural Community(Almost In Amish Country) About An Hour or So From Pittsburgh Pennsylvania,When Its Not Cloudy..We Have Amazing Skies Once The Zodiacal Light Goes Away...❤️🔭❤️🔭Ive Pulled 3 All Nighters Now With The Scope At The Ambulance,Someone Connected Their Phone With a Mini Projector.Onto The Scope..And Our Building Is White..Its a Screen Now For The Kids Or Anyone Around,We Had About A 80” Moon The Other Night,lol

[@thedeepskyspy1898]

Can you please talk to your contacts at BinTel and ask them to add the QHY cameras to their list of cameras 😏

[@DylanODonnell]

Ok

[@ClearAmbientSkies]

21 frames at 180sec each!! Wow.

[@tirinsplay]

Stars seem a bit off focus 😐

[@briandenley]

Wow

[@davepastern]

I'd be checking that arm to make sure that there's nothing under the epidermis. Looks nasty mate. Nice camera and image, but it is 3x the price of the 1600mm pro...not a fair comparison! PS guess what arrived today!

[@Miguel_Noppe]

I heard Zac Efron is a new resident in Byron Bay, maybe next time you can hire him to do the gardening, i'm sure your wife would't mind 😬, winwin eh

[@DylanODonnell]

Hehe I also learned that sergey brin from google came and stayed up the street from me last summer. It’s a funny place.

[@PafMedic]

Good Morning Dylan,I Get All My Gear From High Point,and Need To Speak With Dave About My New Eqm 35 Pro Mount..Ill Mention Your Name..Have a Great Day..Thank You For The Video..Happy Days and Clear Skies❤️🔭🙏🏼🌏🇺🇸

[@yoiisunxy1640]

It is said that qhy's products often lose their drivers

[@DylanODonnell]

I’ve had qhy products for years and never had that problem.. they now have a single driver for everything too which is great.

[@WhiteWulfe]

I'll playfully say you forgot the other nice thing for astronomy that the novel coronavirus has brought about - significantly fewer planes in the air ruining your subs! (says the guy who hasn't even taken his telescope out for quite some time, but we've had a plague of clouds the past while. That and 5am alarm clocks for work don't really pan out with going out to look at the stars in the summer)

[@TheHellfiremissile]

Ah Dylan, suck it up. :-) I'm from Wollongbar. So very close to you....

[@DylanODonnell]

Wollonbahhhhhhh!

[@johnadastra1754]

Keep seeing these equipment videos, but almost everything is out of stock in the USA :(. But love seeing snakes, ants, and killer plants :).

[@DylanODonnell]

It’s the same here too!

[@johnadastra1754]

@Blank User Thanks. Still getting used to the NON-instant gratification we have these days.

[@ServiceMarcus]

9896 Eldridge Estate

[@VisibledarkAstro]

Hey Dylan - interesting to listen to your thoughts on the QHY268C. I am testing one out as well. I did a couple videos on it and objects I was shooting. kzbin.info/www/bejne/h2S5n42Pdr5njc0 - I am currently experimenting with high gain and this camera. Very amazing results so far. As your one viewer pointed out the read noise is so low and amp glow is non-existent. I would recommend using gain 0 in either mode, 26 in photo, or 56 in HG. If you're imaging with an f/4 or slower scope or in very dark skies I'd probably suggest the latter. If you're doing broadband in light pollution or any fast scope like a RASA you can just use gain 0 so you get less oversaturation of fullwell. I would suggest gain 56 in HG mode for pretty much all narrowband imaging including the duo/tri band filters no matter what scope you're using or what LP is, and adjust exposure accordingly. Great video as usual. Enjoyed it. Cheers.

[@DylanODonnell]

Thanks mate! Makes sense to me :)

[@JarrodMcKitterick]

'500 rule' approved.

[@DylanODonnell]

Boom!

[@kedardeshmukh8075]

Lol last time I was this early was never

[@tempusfugit6820]

I'll wait 🤔 probably 5 years until it becomes available at a price I ca afford on the used market...

[@DJRonnieG]

Jeez, the plants in Australia are hostile.

[@brandonrunyon]

Australia: even the plants are aggressive...

[@astrobob9432]

What is is with musician's and gardening accidents? LOL

[@renovationexpert6048]

🤯👍

[@telemaq76]

the -15 dark is quite bad in my humble opinion. i dont want to see a 10 degrés dark.

[@DylanODonnell]

Remember it’s an auto stretch so both darks will stretch until barely perceptible noise is pulled out to the extreme in the example. Unstretched you can’t see anything.

[@gagaboul3423]

Ah.. if only their drivers were as smooth as the packaging

[@DylanODonnell]

They are .. as of a few weeks ago they've released an all-in-one driver pack which supports everything they make with one install :)

[@daniellorenzo7765]

@@DylanODonnell Interesting, I shall take a look then, thx

[@GarnettLeary]

Fine camera. A bit overpriced but quite nice. I got mucked up during a honey-do list myself. Failed to identify poison ivy while weed eating an area between two fences. I got some of that in my left eye despite wearing glasses. By day two I looked like the monster off the “Goonies”. Have you ever heard of RackaRacka? That’s likely a stupid question. I’m just trying to imagine how they would respond to astronomy. Ron visits an observatory.

[@joshhart8722]

Once again we are reminded that everything in Australia really does want to kill us!

[@Ano_nym122]

07:00 just Australien Things...

[@DylanODonnell]

Yep!

[@johnsgarage6622]

Standing around the water cooler with other nerds?...hmmm