The American dream in crisis? A discussion with Robert Putnam and Charles Murray

[@Foerdi94]

This are exactly the debates which are needed. A great thank you for Hosting the debate and of course uploading it on KZbin so that it can be freely watched and enjoyed.

[@stap0510]

Great and clear explanations from Robert Putnam.

[@tracyyuan7611]

Inspiring discussions. Thank you all!

[@JB-kx9bx]

My wife and I are both engineers and are able to live barely above a lifestyle my bartender dad and secretary mom enjoyed in the 1980s. We stay out of debt and dont go crazy with excessive lifestyles. Its expensive just to live now. I want to say my parents mortgage in Colorado was $500/month back then.

[@BennyWalnuts]

Heard that bro 😞

[@janegeary6013]

WWII brought us together. Counterculture tore us apart.

[@inkyguy]

Jane Geary, WWII provided a common and larger national purpose but many of the changes it wrought in American society have been very negative. The counterculture, for instance, was not a reaction to the war but a direct result of it. Though it is the Vietnam veterans who was stigmatized as the psychologically destroyed, in fact WWII resulted in far more damaged and disabled vets per capita.

[@gloryofthesnow9451]

Noam Chomsky: "One big problem is that the white working class has been pretty much abandoned by the political system. The Democrats don’t even try to organize them anymore. The Republicans claim to do it; they get most of the vote, but they do it on non-economic issues, on non-labor issues. They often try to mobilize them on the grounds of issues steeped in racism and sexism and so on." Karl Marx said to the First International back in 1867, “in order to oppose their workers, the employers either bring in workers from abroad or else transfer manufacture to countries where there is a cheap labor force.” Or both, we should add.

[@jugg3647]

The same thing has happened in the UK. The Labour Party has abandoned the indigenous working class in favour of identity politics catering to the metropolitan woke section of the middle classes. As a result the Conservatives have - like the Republicans - begun picking up the working class vote. Perhaps on the same grounds and the Brexit delay has had a big influence too. For the first time the "old school" working class voted overwhelmingly for the Conservatives in the 2019 election.

[@latetotheparty184]

How does Putnam explain the graph of social capital, income equality,and more 29:26 ? His answer is, by the invention of high school. ( !) IMO it is about our industrial society learning how to use petroleum in almost every area of life. The resulting energy use allowed a lot of growth in the economy and more. And the peak of US per capita petroleum use is 1965 to 1970. It is no coincidence that as the amount per capita decreased so did union membership, generosity etc.

[@chrisyokum8261]

I would have liked to see more information regarding causality.

[@iamthefixr]

Regarding Putnam's graphs: there's one major event that happened at the peak of pretty much each of the trends he graphed. The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.

[@Tounushi]

The american dream has turned into a nightmare, and people are starting to wake up.

[@mayainverse9429]

the american dream is still a dream its just not a guarantee. your not poor if you can become obese. so called "poor people" in this country have a significantly higher problem with obesity than hunger. what is a problem in poor neighborhoods is not poverty but crime and violence. out of all the groups in America the most poor the most hard working and likely the most happy group of people is probably the Amish.

[@inkyguy]

Mana Montana, I know the Amish. The Amish are NOT poor in any meaningful financial sense. Some are quite wealthy, others struggle, most fit somewhere between. Their lives appear relatively poor, but they do not lack for money typically. Remember too that many, though not all, are land rich which they cultivate to make money. By definition, few poor people own land, or any real estate, and certainly not the valuable land that the Amish farm.

[@professionalhermit4592]

I think they are missing feedback loops reinforcing the initial change(s) that started the divergence. So, certainly many of the effects look like causes, because they are, just not the ones that started the downward spiral. Much like economic and ecological systems go past some tipping point that results in acceleration of effects. In such systems crashing is inevitable without a dramatic reset. Regardless, excellent data and well presented.

[@theJellyjoker]

Don't walk away from your mike during your presentation.

[@mayainverse9429]

it bothers me this conversation is always about the gap and not the absolute quality of life of poor people. if we were to expel all the rich people from the country income inequality would be nearly non existent but everyone would be living in a hell hole.

[@ChrisP872]

I am working and earning a living as I listen to this. Is the resentment caused by government force ever mentioned as an influence? Forced redistribution causes resentment from both the person it is taken from and the person it is given to compared to voluntary charity. Forced integration causes resentment also. Can this be filed under obvious but ignored?

[@78JCarter]

Hormonal birth control 1960, ‘The Feminine Mystique” 1963, Feminist movement 1967. What could have possibly happened in the 1960’s that is leading us down a path to social collapse? The nuclear family was the basis of our way of life and feminism (along with the welfare state and other social factors) nuked it. Why are these men worthless? I will help the panel out. They didn’t have a dad. Why are personality disorders rampant in women? They didn’t have a dad. He got ejected by the family court in the divorce. And I agree with most of feminine ideology.

[@78JCarter]

I would add, what is the most common denominator in school shootings? Oh yeah they didn’t have a dad. The book sex and culture by J D Unwin explains the process that will be the undoing of our country.

[@JB-kx9bx]

People realize religion is a con to get your money.

[@gloryofthesnow9451]

"Across Age Groups, Whites Fared Worse in Employment Rates" NYT, By Eduardo Porter Dec. 16, 2016 While Hispanics, African-Americans and Asian-Americans have millions more jobs now than they did at the labor market’s high-water mark in November 2007, before the economy turned into recession, whites actually lost 700,000 more jobs than they gained. Perhaps it’s just that more whites retired? Not quite. The pattern actually looks worse for whites in the decade preceding retirement. (prime voting age) The employment rate of whites from the ages of 55 to 64 declined slightly - to 63.6 percent from 64.1 percent. By contrast, the employment rate of blacks, Hispanics and Asians increased.

[@RedandWhiteGuerilla]

Murray never follows through with solutions.

[@VIRAJ4500]

america always bounce back. are you ready.

[@ChrisP872]

Robert Putnam seems to think advantages are all driven by money. A lot of the poorer parents have more time available since they don't even go to work. A great deal can be done with your children to help them learn and develop that requires very little money but you need time.

[@inkyguy]

I know of very few poor who don't work whatsoever. What is more typical is someone working two and even three jobs to earn a livable wage. This can also be complicated by lack of access to transportation or it taking hours to go from one workplace to another. Also, when you lack money the smallest issue can be a crisis. Car break down? A child get sick? Money provides you with means and ability to deal and cope with problems that arise day to day. Without it, even on the best day, you are constantly scrambling and scratching to meet your most basic needs.

[@ChrisP872]

1:7:46 It isn't fair. Life's not fair. Trying to use violence (the state) to make it fair is guaranteed to fail.

[@mayainverse9429]

people getting rich and poor is fair of their own means and even passing it to their children is fair. fairness is just playing by the same rules. bill gates passing all his wealth to his children is every bit as fair as a poor father passing his broken pocket watch to his son.

[@ChrisP872]

Income inequality has always existed but the intelligence, behavior, and mental fortitude of the poor has fallen. It can't be just about money. I blame government social engineering and the terrible cascading impact.

[@mayainverse9429]

we should then have very highly successful people male and female be egg/sperm doners and instead of the poor having their own natural children implant the fertilized egg in the poor mothers womb so she can carry it to term then they can raise it. there will still be some difference in outcomes based on cultures but it wont be as bad as letting the stupid get stupider and letting the smart get crazy smart

[@ChrisP872]

About sports and extracurricular activity: If your kid is failing the all important basics why would you concern yourself with these? Also, we spend more per pupil than ever before.

[@inkyguy]

We may spend more per capita on average but the spending is not evenly spread and is very lopsided. The U.S. actually has some of the best secondary schools in the developed world. We also have some of the worst. Wealthy school districts do very, very well while poor rural and urban districts face serious limitations. Our system for funding education is antiquated and outrageously inequitable. The kids who typically need the most get the least.

[@ChrisP872]

Why should or would middle and upper class people live near poor people with their higher unemployment, drug abuse, crime, and violent crime? As a father it would be completely irresponsible of me to have my family live in such an environment if it is at all in my power to do better for them.

[@inkyguy]

Remember that crime rates are largely based on enforcement. Not to say there isn't more crime in some areas but crime statistics are inflated by the fact that police heavily enforce drug laws, for instance, in cities. If suburbanites were policed in a similar manner a lot more crime would be revealed.

[@inkyguy]

It is hard to take anything seriously that would include Charles Murray. If the AEI is the sort of conservative think tank I suspect it is, then it is contributing to the very problem it is supposedly seeking to address. Capitalism as it is practiced in the U.S. erodes and undermines family, relationships and community.